Recomposition: Maintaining weight while losing fat
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I guess that I have a different perspective to many being an "old-timer".
When I started training in the 70's eating/calories/macros were for the vast majority simply not on the radar - you went to the gym to get stronger, faster, fitter. Training and diet were for the most part completely disconnected. Bulk/cut cycles were solely for body-builders, I never met anyone consciously bulking or cutting.
But remember back then there wasn't the current obsession with being lean unless you were competing in a weight limited sport. I was training with a power lifter recently which made me realise that big/strong/fat (relatively!) was very common when I was young but it getting quite unusual now.
So despite having personally been every combination possible in my lifetime of light/heavy, muscular/under-muscled, slim/fat I've never done a bulk & cut cycle.
For me the pendulum has swung too far away from recomp and people are getting some weird ideas that are frequently voiced on these forums that you can't build muscle without a surplus. For me people are tending to copy the language and diet of elite athletes without realising that they also need to train like elite athletes! The young kid doing bicep curls with their protein shake by their side for example.
Really it comes down to both goals and to a large degree training/physique status. For anyone just starting out they will make the best progress of their life purely because they don't have many training miles under their belt so a calorie surplus (to me) is pretty irrelevant. I'm at the other end of the spectrum at 55 - I've lost my ability to gain muscle fast whatever my calorie balance (shame I haven't lost the ability to gain fat fast too...). So a bulk for me wouldn't really give me anything except a spare tyre. I'm also performance focussed not physique focussed - my goals are fitness and strength related not body composition or physique, that's just a bonus.
Some random comments:
Hate the phrase "spinning your wheels" (Lyle McDonald?) being applied to everyone - it has context for people advanced in physique and training but not the general population who are currently far from their potential.
There is a perception your diet has to be completely on point to recomp - disagree completely, that's a requirement for people aiming for advanced level of physique, leanness, training and not the vast majority of people (remember that MFP is an unusual demographic).
Diet and calorie balance is frequently being over-emphasised at the expense of focus on training. Diet should support training.
People don't really put enough thought into their goals. Sure a six pack would be nice but many aren't really prepared to make the sacrifices needed to achieve it. I know I'm not.
There's a perception that to get to advanced levels you MUST cut/bulk, not actually true. Bret Contreras and Alan Aragon are both training people to competition levels without bulking.
Great post! I would agree that the MAJORITY of people are hung up in the details. If you're not a competitive athlete or a professional performer, then there is no need to hit your macros to a T day in and day out. Focus on a protein and calorie goal and lift heavy weights. That's as simple as it gets for a recomp, bulk, cut whatever.
Reading through most of the posts it's clear many are content with taking it slow and changing over time. Great!
If your goal is to build as much muscle as possible or get as strong as possible (assuming naturally) then yes, focusing on the details does matter to an extent. Optimal performance is typically what you're going to get when your spot on with calories, macros, lifting program.
Note: if you want to lift I highly recommend following a proven program! Many of said programs have been stated.4 -
It's as if Omar was reading our thread.... Some great points in here about what major factors go into your body composition.
http://youtu.be/5ZygA4HozIY
3 -
For those of you have have done significant recomps... can you talk a bit about progress over time? Specifically things like how you evaluated your progress, when you saw changes in how clothes fit, when you saw changes in how you looked in the mirror, etc.
When bulking or cutting, once you get past the initial learning curve phase, progress is fairly easy to track/see. That's not as much the case with recomping, and that can be a challenge mentally/emotionally for many. It might be good for people to see others' experiences with this so they have some context for what to expect (or not to expect).0 -
I debated on posting since my stats are eh (IMO). I'm also not super researched in this, just what I've learned from the frequent posters here and my own experience.
I lost 60 pounds years ago (10 years ago, actually lost 100 but gained back 40 to get to a healthier weight. I had no period and was losing my hair and had brittle nails at my lowest weight.). I started lifting in August 2013 (low weight, higher rep) and started lifting heavy in September 2014 with Stronglifts 5x5. I have pretty much run a recomp since then.
My lifts have increased signficantly:
Start weight // Current weight and 1RM (where I've tested them)
Squat: 95# 5x5 // 165# 5x5 (200# 1RM at last test)
Bench: 65# 5x5 // 120# 5x5
Row: 45# 5x5 // 85# 5x5
OHP: 45# 5x5 // 80# 5x5
Deads: 145# 1x5 // 210# 1x5 (215 1RM at last test)
My measurements have been ok. I won't list them all, just the ones I have seen a change in.
Start (Oct '14) // Current
Biceps 12.75 // 13
Forearm 10.25 // 10.5
Chest 35 // 34.5
Waist 28 // 27
Waist at navel 30.5 // 30
Hips 42.25 // 41.5
Thigh 22.75 // 23.25
Calves 15.25 // 15
I didn't have an accurate BF% from when I started, but picture estimates put me at around 27%. I had a BodPod at the end of Oct 2014 and had a BF% of 27.4%, so close to picture estimates. Current estimates put me around 24-25%. (I'm going for a BodPod next month, so I'll have a more accurate reading.) So, not a great change BF%-wise, but I'm ok with it. At my October 2014 BodPod, I had 129 pounds of LBM.
ETA: sorry about the formatting. I did have it spaced properly, but MFP doesn't like my formatting.2 -
xcalgrl - I would say that losing approx. 2% body fat + almost doubling strength in most lifts is a great accomplishment in 8 months on recomp. Very motivating, NOT meh. I am really only hoping to losing 2-3% more body fat and get my strength to your numbers. If I could do that in a year of recomp I would be psyched.6
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After reading this thread I have a few questions.
Stats
61 inches, 37 female
SW 156
CW 121
GW 119
However, I still have a high body fat. My thighs are gigantic and stomach not that impressive.
Based on what I calculated my protein should be around 143.
I also did my TDEE on Scooby. The reducing fat gain muscle option and 3-5 days of mod workout. Gave me 1982 calories per day. (Wow that's an increase from what I have been eating) Happy Dance! I realize I need to increase slowly.
Due to an autoimmune disease I am limited to walking. (I am closely followed by dr. Moving is important and my best defense! )
I try to do 3-5 days of walking. 3.75 miles at 60mins each day. Some weeks I can't do any but since starting my new journey those are far and few between.
Any lifting ideas? I saw someone mention The new rules to lifting. Is this a thread? I haven't a clue where to start.
Thanks in advanced.
Your current weight isn't far from your goal weight, so it might be a good time to slowly increase your calories until you maintain. There are lots of programs out there as ndj mentioned. I started with some of the free programs on bodybuilding.com because they had videos for all the exercises. From what I have heard about the previous programs that were mentioned I think that New Rules of Lifting starts off slow and teaches a lot. More important is picking something you feel comfortable with as a starting point, even if it is a body weight program like You Are Your Own Gym (I think they have an app).
May I ask if the poster in this thread weighs 121lbs how can her protein goal be 143g?
I am assuming you are referring to me. I am totally new at figuring this out. So I could be wrong. I just went back to Scooby and it states .5-1 per pound. I thought I read somewhere in here it was 1.2 per pound.1 -
For those of you have have done significant recomps... can you talk a bit about progress over time? Specifically things like how you evaluated your progress, when you saw changes in how clothes fit, when you saw changes in how you looked in the mirror, etc.
When bulking or cutting, once you get past the initial learning curve phase, progress is fairly easy to track/see. That's not as much the case with recomping, and that can be a challenge mentally/emotionally for many. It might be good for people to see others' experiences with this so they have some context for what to expect (or not to expect).
It can be difficult to track progress, even in photos. A lot of times I'll see a bit of definition but I won't be able to get a good photo of it for another month or two. I did take measurements but a lot of the fat I lost was in places that typically aren't measured. For example my hip measurement stayed basically the same, and yet I lost two pants sizes. I think it was more of a challenge at first. Once I realized that I was changing sizes still I was pretty much set. Mostly I track progress by the mirror now. Part of it for me is that I don't really have aesthetic goals at the moment. I did at first but gradually it turned into me just enjoying my training and not paying much attention to the aesthetics, and then every couple of months I'll realize that something's changed.6 -
After reading this thread I have a few questions.
Stats
61 inches, 37 female
SW 156
CW 121
GW 119
However, I still have a high body fat. My thighs are gigantic and stomach not that impressive.
Based on what I calculated my protein should be around 143.
I also did my TDEE on Scooby. The reducing fat gain muscle option and 3-5 days of mod workout. Gave me 1982 calories per day. (Wow that's an increase from what I have been eating) Happy Dance! I realize I need to increase slowly.
Due to an autoimmune disease I am limited to walking. (I am closely followed by dr. Moving is important and my best defense! )
I try to do 3-5 days of walking. 3.75 miles at 60mins each day. Some weeks I can't do any but since starting my new journey those are far and few between.
Any lifting ideas? I saw someone mention The new rules to lifting. Is this a thread? I haven't a clue where to start.
Thanks in advanced.
Your current weight isn't far from your goal weight, so it might be a good time to slowly increase your calories until you maintain. There are lots of programs out there as ndj mentioned. I started with some of the free programs on bodybuilding.com because they had videos for all the exercises. From what I have heard about the previous programs that were mentioned I think that New Rules of Lifting starts off slow and teaches a lot. More important is picking something you feel comfortable with as a starting point, even if it is a body weight program like You Are Your Own Gym (I think they have an app).
May I ask if the poster in this thread weighs 121lbs how can her protein goal be 143g?
I read a month or so back that protein macros should be set at 0.64 - 0.82 g P per lb of bodyweight based on studies on a range of different athletes .. there would be no harm in exceeding but there was no further benefit .. I believe the 0.82 per lb bodyweight was for serious bodybuilder types
(ETA Link from heybales http://bayesianbodybuilding.com/the-myth-of-1glb-optimal-protein-intake-for-bodybuilders/)
I would be interested in knowing whether you agree with that
I'm on maintenance at 160 (+/- 3-5lbs) ... progressive lifting 3x a week.. watching my protein and fats minimums and assuming there will be some kind of recomp over the next couple of years.
But overall I'm relatively OK with what I see in the mirror I'm just keeping a vague eye on the slightly wobbly bits (mainly my small c-section pooch which is ever so slowly dissipating) ... I think I'll stick with the jumping up and down in front of the mirror nekkid approach and continue to keep an eye on what's a-wobbling
You are correct that the suggested protein intake is lower than her current intake, but if the higher protein is keeping her full and on track there's nothing wrong with that. She could lower it and be fine.3 -
I guess that I have a different perspective to many being an "old-timer".
When I started training in the 70's eating/calories/macros were for the vast majority simply not on the radar - you went to the gym to get stronger, faster, fitter. Training and diet were for the most part completely disconnected. Bulk/cut cycles were solely for body-builders, I never met anyone consciously bulking or cutting.
But remember back then there wasn't the current obsession with being lean unless you were competing in a weight limited sport. I was training with a power lifter recently which made me realise that big/strong/fat (relatively!) was very common when I was young but it getting quite unusual now.
So despite having personally been every combination possible in my lifetime of light/heavy, muscular/under-muscled, slim/fat I've never done a bulk & cut cycle.
For me the pendulum has swung too far away from recomp and people are getting some weird ideas that are frequently voiced on these forums that you can't build muscle without a surplus. For me people are tending to copy the language and diet of elite athletes without realising that they also need to train like elite athletes! The young kid doing bicep curls with their protein shake by their side for example.
Really it comes down to both goals and to a large degree training/physique status. For anyone just starting out they will make the best progress of their life purely because they don't have many training miles under their belt so a calorie surplus (to me) is pretty irrelevant. I'm at the other end of the spectrum at 55 - I've lost my ability to gain muscle fast whatever my calorie balance (shame I haven't lost the ability to gain fat fast too...). So a bulk for me wouldn't really give me anything except a spare tyre. I'm also performance focussed not physique focussed - my goals are fitness and strength related not body composition or physique, that's just a bonus.
Some random comments:
Hate the phrase "spinning your wheels" (Lyle McDonald?) being applied to everyone - it has context for people advanced in physique and training but not the general population who are currently far from their potential.
There is a perception your diet has to be completely on point to recomp - disagree completely, that's a requirement for people aiming for advanced level of physique, leanness, training and not the vast majority of people (remember that MFP is an unusual demographic).
Diet and calorie balance is frequently being over-emphasised at the expense of focus on training. Diet should support training.
People don't really put enough thought into their goals. Sure a six pack would be nice but many aren't really prepared to make the sacrifices needed to achieve it. I know I'm not.
There's a perception that to get to advanced levels you MUST cut/bulk, not actually true. Bret Contreras and Alan Aragon are both training people to competition levels without bulking.
You are correct on many points and some of them are the reason I started this. I didn't put concrete guidelines down because recomposition is being able to carry on with a normal life while also having the goal of improving physique. Ideals are for those like me with competition goals, so my suggestions in the first post are more things to think about.
I like the phrase "spinning your wheels" as far as how it relates to what recomp can feel like. Everyone wants a lean body as of yesterday, so working at it for months or years feels like you are getting nowhere. I think few people actively attempting to recomp are spinning their wheels.4 -
After reading this thread I have a few questions.
Stats
61 inches, 37 female
SW 156
CW 121
GW 119
However, I still have a high body fat. My thighs are gigantic and stomach not that impressive.
Based on what I calculated my protein should be around 143.
I also did my TDEE on Scooby. The reducing fat gain muscle option and 3-5 days of mod workout. Gave me 1982 calories per day. (Wow that's an increase from what I have been eating) Happy Dance! I realize I need to increase slowly.
Due to an autoimmune disease I am limited to walking. (I am closely followed by dr. Moving is important and my best defense! )
I try to do 3-5 days of walking. 3.75 miles at 60mins each day. Some weeks I can't do any but since starting my new journey those are far and few between.
Any lifting ideas? I saw someone mention The new rules to lifting. Is this a thread? I haven't a clue where to start.
Thanks in advanced.
Your current weight isn't far from your goal weight, so it might be a good time to slowly increase your calories until you maintain. There are lots of programs out there as ndj mentioned. I started with some of the free programs on bodybuilding.com because they had videos for all the exercises. From what I have heard about the previous programs that were mentioned I think that New Rules of Lifting starts off slow and teaches a lot. More important is picking something you feel comfortable with as a starting point, even if it is a body weight program like You Are Your Own Gym (I think they have an app).
May I ask if the poster in this thread weighs 121lbs how can her protein goal be 143g?
I am assuming you are referring to me. I am totally new at figuring this out. So I could be wrong. I just went back to Scooby and it states .5-1 per pound. I thought I read somewhere in here it was 1.2 per pound.
It was 1.2 per kg, not pound. Many times in the fitness industry they use kg. It can be a bit tricky if you don't know to look for that.4 -
For those of you have have done significant recomps... can you talk a bit about progress over time? Specifically things like how you evaluated your progress, when you saw changes in how clothes fit, when you saw changes in how you looked in the mirror, etc.
When bulking or cutting, once you get past the initial learning curve phase, progress is fairly easy to track/see. That's not as much the case with recomping, and that can be a challenge mentally/emotionally for many. It might be good for people to see others' experiences with this so they have some context for what to expect (or not to expect).
I'm not sure if my experience is typical or useful for comparison as there aren't many 50 something cyclists who lift but have injured knees and back that precludes a lot of the "big lifts"? Reason I mention the cycling is that I effectively do very little leg strength work in the gym (recovery and saving legs for cycling).
Maybe the 7 month summer 2013 period when I was still in a tiny deficit is interesting though - lost roughly 8lbs of fat and gained about 4lb of muscle. If I remember correctly that was about a 4% BF drop. Certainly a visible difference, slightly bigger legs and arms, smaller waist, chest measurement the same but less fat on my chest and bigger lats. Strength-wise added about 30lbs to my bench press and 25lbs to lat pulls in same timeframe.
Used to track progress with tape measure, BodPod scans, 4 point BIA scales (which although erratic gave a reasonable trend).
Now I'm only concerned in measuring performance improvements, I simply became disinterested in tracking all the other stuff.
No idea what my current BF% is - visibly leaner though. Strength progress has plateaued but close to lifetime bests and hitting injury limits so not surprising.
2 -
Holy hell...supportive posts, intelligent responses, polite corrections received with gratitude...what unholy place is this?30
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I guess that I have a different perspective to many being an "old-timer".
When I started training in the 70's eating/calories/macros were for the vast majority simply not on the radar - you went to the gym to get stronger, faster, fitter. Training and diet were for the most part completely disconnected. Bulk/cut cycles were solely for body-builders, I never met anyone consciously bulking or cutting.
But remember back then there wasn't the current obsession with being lean unless you were competing in a weight limited sport. I was training with a power lifter recently which made me realise that big/strong/fat (relatively!) was very common when I was young but it getting quite unusual now.
So despite having personally been every combination possible in my lifetime of light/heavy, muscular/under-muscled, slim/fat I've never done a bulk & cut cycle.
For me the pendulum has swung too far away from recomp and people are getting some weird ideas that are frequently voiced on these forums that you can't build muscle without a surplus. For me people are tending to copy the language and diet of elite athletes without realising that they also need to train like elite athletes! The young kid doing bicep curls with their protein shake by their side for example.
Really it comes down to both goals and to a large degree training/physique status. For anyone just starting out they will make the best progress of their life purely because they don't have many training miles under their belt so a calorie surplus (to me) is pretty irrelevant. I'm at the other end of the spectrum at 55 - I've lost my ability to gain muscle fast whatever my calorie balance (shame I haven't lost the ability to gain fat fast too...). So a bulk for me wouldn't really give me anything except a spare tyre. I'm also performance focussed not physique focussed - my goals are fitness and strength related not body composition or physique, that's just a bonus.
Some random comments:
Hate the phrase "spinning your wheels" (Lyle McDonald?) being applied to everyone - it has context for people advanced in physique and training but not the general population who are currently far from their potential.
There is a perception your diet has to be completely on point to recomp - disagree completely, that's a requirement for people aiming for advanced level of physique, leanness, training and not the vast majority of people (remember that MFP is an unusual demographic).
Diet and calorie balance is frequently being over-emphasised at the expense of focus on training. Diet should support training.
People don't really put enough thought into their goals. Sure a six pack would be nice but many aren't really prepared to make the sacrifices needed to achieve it. I know I'm not.
There's a perception that to get to advanced levels you MUST cut/bulk, not actually true. Bret Contreras and Alan Aragon are both training people to competition levels without bulking.
+1 awesome post bro thanks0 -
Good timing on this thread. I've been at maintenance for maybe six months now, and I'm considering adding a program like Stronglifts 5x5 to my repetoir. I'm currently doing a resistance-focused Body Pump-type class several times a week (lower weights, more repetition), and while I'm not making a lot of impressive strength gains I have definitely noticed that the recomp is happening (muscles way more visible and less jiggle everywhere). I'm thinking I might get even better results by switching to Stronglifts and truly focusing on strength. Thanks for the recomp info!4
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tincanonastring wrote: »Holy hell...supportive posts, intelligent responses, polite corrections received with gratitude...what unholy place is this?
That's because you arrived post apocalypse.
I missed the apocalypse...probably a good thing considering
4 -
I am enjoying this thread too. Enjoying reading everyone's experiences and advice.1
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in for education of course. Looking forward to hitting goal and recomp by summers end...
I personally don't have it in me mentally to bulk/cut...I know myself.ILiftHeavyAcrylics wrote: »For those of you have have done significant recomps... can you talk a bit about progress over time? Specifically things like how you evaluated your progress, when you saw changes in how clothes fit, when you saw changes in how you looked in the mirror, etc.
When bulking or cutting, once you get past the initial learning curve phase, progress is fairly easy to track/see. That's not as much the case with recomping, and that can be a challenge mentally/emotionally for many. It might be good for people to see others' experiences with this so they have some context for what to expect (or not to expect).
It can be difficult to track progress, even in photos. A lot of times I'll see a bit of definition but I won't be able to get a good photo of it for another month or two. I did take measurements but a lot of the fat I lost was in places that typically aren't measured. For example my hip measurement stayed basically the same, and yet I lost two pants sizes. I think it was more of a challenge at first. Once I realized that I was changing sizes still I was pretty much set. Mostly I track progress by the mirror now. Part of it for me is that I don't really have aesthetic goals at the moment. I did at first but gradually it turned into me just enjoying my training and not paying much attention to the aesthetics, and then every couple of months I'll realize that something's changed.
@ILiftHeavyAcrylics I am glad you posted this as I feel I have lost (9 months at maintenance/lifting) and my clothing is smaller and people comment that I am smaller but measurements stayed pretty much the same...
AS well about being on point with diet...I try but not perfect so it's good to know it won't derail me too much.1 -
For those of you have have done significant recomps... can you talk a bit about progress over time? Specifically things like how you evaluated your progress, when you saw changes in how clothes fit, when you saw changes in how you looked in the mirror, etc.
When bulking or cutting, once you get past the initial learning curve phase, progress is fairly easy to track/see. That's not as much the case with recomping, and that can be a challenge mentally/emotionally for many. It might be good for people to see others' experiences with this so they have some context for what to expect (or not to expect).
To be 100% honest, I track through the veins. The more veins that show, the leaner I am getting. I think that's correct as I am not sure why else they would show. I am pretty vascular to begin with.
When I first started recomping, I had 0 veins showing anywhere. First the under forearms came, then the outer forearms and calves. Then the biceps and shoulder and thighs. Next stop...abs. That combine with measurements kinda told me what is happening. It can be a bit of a mind f*** though when the scale doesn't move all that much.
5
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