Clean eating here I come.....
Replies
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juliebowman4 wrote: »Oh my
Nobody said anyone was advocating for or using a Twinkie diet.
Lol
It's simply a rudimentary example to point out quality vs quantity.
So the equasion is quality (ie fish and veg) ~quantity (ie fish and veg)
Cuz I don't think 9 twinkles would weigh very much...
Why do we have this conversation to nausium every two days?????!?0 -
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Not 'running'.
Backing away after acknowledging that I likely didn't communicate my thoughts very well and have upset others.
Apparently it's necessary to stick around until someone draws blood. Is that how this works?0 -
juliebowman4 wrote: »chezzabelle82 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »chezzabelle82 wrote: »I am gonna just carry cal counting and make better choices with food I am sure j will lose the weight I have put on eating biscuits, crisps etc... At some point
This sounds really sensible, but if focusing on improving your diet helps you and putting together a plan to do that, I think that's great. I just don't think you should feel like you must choose between an overall poor diet and never eating cookies again (or think it's some sin to used canned beans if dry are inconvenient). But for me it actually does help to focus on cooking from whole foods (which I enjoy) and eating lots of veggies, especially now when things are coming in season, and getting my nutrition goals met before fitting something extra into my calories (which I do pretty much every day in some way--ice cream or cheese or some such).
My "clean eating" arguments aren't directed at you, but some of the other posts in this thread.
I know they aren't directed at me but I can't help but feel bad that I started this thread as everyone seems to be arguing, I didn't realise that clean eating was a fad word that would start this lol
I had no idea 'clean eating' was such a hot-button word here either. I'm newish
Yes here are the words to avoid on MFP:
1. Clean eating
2. Junk food
3. Good food
4. Bad food
5. Starvation mode
6. Cleansing
7. Any kind of weight loss pills
8. Fad diets of any kind
9. Making a list of words to avoid
Bottom line is they are looking for things to argue about. So as soon as someone uses a particular word they will side track the entire post making the OP wish they hadn't asked a question in the first place.-5 -
juliebowman4 wrote: »chezzabelle82 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »chezzabelle82 wrote: »I am gonna just carry cal counting and make better choices with food I am sure j will lose the weight I have put on eating biscuits, crisps etc... At some point
This sounds really sensible, but if focusing on improving your diet helps you and putting together a plan to do that, I think that's great. I just don't think you should feel like you must choose between an overall poor diet and never eating cookies again (or think it's some sin to used canned beans if dry are inconvenient). But for me it actually does help to focus on cooking from whole foods (which I enjoy) and eating lots of veggies, especially now when things are coming in season, and getting my nutrition goals met before fitting something extra into my calories (which I do pretty much every day in some way--ice cream or cheese or some such).
My "clean eating" arguments aren't directed at you, but some of the other posts in this thread.
I know they aren't directed at me but I can't help but feel bad that I started this thread as everyone seems to be arguing, I didn't realise that clean eating was a fad word that would start this lol
I had no idea 'clean eating' was such a hot-button word here either. I'm newish
Yes here are the words to avoid on MFP:
1. Clean eating
2. Junk food
3. Good food
4. Bad food
5. Starvation mode
6. Cleansing
7. Any kind of weight loss pills
8. Fad diets of any kind
9. Making a list of words to avoid
Bottom line is they are looking for things to argue about. So as soon as someone uses a particular word they will side track the entire post making the OP wish they hadn't asked a question in the first place.
Much thanks0 -
juliebowman4 wrote: »juliebowman4 wrote: »chezzabelle82 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »chezzabelle82 wrote: »I am gonna just carry cal counting and make better choices with food I am sure j will lose the weight I have put on eating biscuits, crisps etc... At some point
This sounds really sensible, but if focusing on improving your diet helps you and putting together a plan to do that, I think that's great. I just don't think you should feel like you must choose between an overall poor diet and never eating cookies again (or think it's some sin to used canned beans if dry are inconvenient). But for me it actually does help to focus on cooking from whole foods (which I enjoy) and eating lots of veggies, especially now when things are coming in season, and getting my nutrition goals met before fitting something extra into my calories (which I do pretty much every day in some way--ice cream or cheese or some such).
My "clean eating" arguments aren't directed at you, but some of the other posts in this thread.
I know they aren't directed at me but I can't help but feel bad that I started this thread as everyone seems to be arguing, I didn't realise that clean eating was a fad word that would start this lol
I had no idea 'clean eating' was such a hot-button word here either. I'm newish
Yes here are the words to avoid on MFP:
1. Clean eating
2. Junk food
3. Good food
4. Bad food
5. Starvation mode
6. Cleansing
7. Any kind of weight loss pills
8. Fad diets of any kind
9. Making a list of words to avoid
Bottom line is they are looking for things to argue about. So as soon as someone uses a particular word they will side track the entire post making the OP wish they hadn't asked a question in the first place.
Much thanks just work on enjoying what you eat and try new things.
Oh... forgot one more word. Never use the word "cheat" either. Lol0 -
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juliebowman4 wrote: »chezzabelle82 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »chezzabelle82 wrote: »I am gonna just carry cal counting and make better choices with food I am sure j will lose the weight I have put on eating biscuits, crisps etc... At some point
This sounds really sensible, but if focusing on improving your diet helps you and putting together a plan to do that, I think that's great. I just don't think you should feel like you must choose between an overall poor diet and never eating cookies again (or think it's some sin to used canned beans if dry are inconvenient). But for me it actually does help to focus on cooking from whole foods (which I enjoy) and eating lots of veggies, especially now when things are coming in season, and getting my nutrition goals met before fitting something extra into my calories (which I do pretty much every day in some way--ice cream or cheese or some such).
My "clean eating" arguments aren't directed at you, but some of the other posts in this thread.
I know they aren't directed at me but I can't help but feel bad that I started this thread as everyone seems to be arguing, I didn't realise that clean eating was a fad word that would start this lol
I had no idea 'clean eating' was such a hot-button word here either. I'm newish
Yes here are the words to avoid on MFP:
1. Clean eating
2. Junk food
3. Good food
4. Bad food
5. Starvation mode
6. Cleansing
7. Any kind of weight loss pills
8. Fad diets of any kind
9. Making a list of words to avoid
Bottom line is they are looking for things to argue about. So as soon as someone uses a particular word they will side track the entire post making the OP wish they hadn't asked a question in the first place.
Are you going to provide anything to the conversation other that criticizing or trying to create more drama?
Actually I already did? Are you not following along or are you looking for things to argue about?0 -
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juliebowman4 wrote: »chezzabelle82 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »chezzabelle82 wrote: »I am gonna just carry cal counting and make better choices with food I am sure j will lose the weight I have put on eating biscuits, crisps etc... At some point
This sounds really sensible, but if focusing on improving your diet helps you and putting together a plan to do that, I think that's great. I just don't think you should feel like you must choose between an overall poor diet and never eating cookies again (or think it's some sin to used canned beans if dry are inconvenient). But for me it actually does help to focus on cooking from whole foods (which I enjoy) and eating lots of veggies, especially now when things are coming in season, and getting my nutrition goals met before fitting something extra into my calories (which I do pretty much every day in some way--ice cream or cheese or some such).
My "clean eating" arguments aren't directed at you, but some of the other posts in this thread.
I know they aren't directed at me but I can't help but feel bad that I started this thread as everyone seems to be arguing, I didn't realise that clean eating was a fad word that would start this lol
I had no idea 'clean eating' was such a hot-button word here either. I'm newish
Yes here are the words to avoid on MFP:
1. Clean eating
2. Junk food
3. Good food
4. Bad food
5. Starvation mode
6. Cleansing
7. Any kind of weight loss pills
8. Fad diets of any kind
9. Making a list of words to avoid
Bottom line is they are looking for things to argue about. So as soon as someone uses a particular word they will side track the entire post making the OP wish they hadn't asked a question in the first place.
Are you going to provide anything to the conversation other that criticizing or trying to create more drama?
Actually I already did? Are you not following along or are you looking for things to argue about?
Have you now?0 -
juliebowman4 wrote: »chezzabelle82 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »chezzabelle82 wrote: »I am gonna just carry cal counting and make better choices with food I am sure j will lose the weight I have put on eating biscuits, crisps etc... At some point
This sounds really sensible, but if focusing on improving your diet helps you and putting together a plan to do that, I think that's great. I just don't think you should feel like you must choose between an overall poor diet and never eating cookies again (or think it's some sin to used canned beans if dry are inconvenient). But for me it actually does help to focus on cooking from whole foods (which I enjoy) and eating lots of veggies, especially now when things are coming in season, and getting my nutrition goals met before fitting something extra into my calories (which I do pretty much every day in some way--ice cream or cheese or some such).
My "clean eating" arguments aren't directed at you, but some of the other posts in this thread.
I know they aren't directed at me but I can't help but feel bad that I started this thread as everyone seems to be arguing, I didn't realise that clean eating was a fad word that would start this lol
I had no idea 'clean eating' was such a hot-button word here either. I'm newish
Lesson learned.....if I can't clearly communicate my thoughts, just back away Julie.....
Your fine Julie,
As you said lesson learned.
Extreme comparisons don't work here....haha
Good luck to you.0 -
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I've been here less than 3 weeks and have seen this same discussion practically every day. My opinion is that every thing is hunkydory until Person 'B' types a variant of that final sentence.
Person 'A': "I'm trying to lose weight by counting calories. I eat a variety of foods, including foods that have less nutritional value occasionally, but as long as I stay in deficit and meet my nutritional goals I will lose weight and stay healthy."
Person 'B': "I'm trying to lose weight by counting calories. I exclude some kinds of food because I believe they have less nutritional value, and as long as I stay in deficit and meet my nutritional goals I will lose weight and stay healthy. Person 'A' is wrong."
And now I really want bacon, and the shops are shut :-(0 -
juliebowman4 wrote: »chezzabelle82 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »chezzabelle82 wrote: »I am gonna just carry cal counting and make better choices with food I am sure j will lose the weight I have put on eating biscuits, crisps etc... At some point
This sounds really sensible, but if focusing on improving your diet helps you and putting together a plan to do that, I think that's great. I just don't think you should feel like you must choose between an overall poor diet and never eating cookies again (or think it's some sin to used canned beans if dry are inconvenient). But for me it actually does help to focus on cooking from whole foods (which I enjoy) and eating lots of veggies, especially now when things are coming in season, and getting my nutrition goals met before fitting something extra into my calories (which I do pretty much every day in some way--ice cream or cheese or some such).
My "clean eating" arguments aren't directed at you, but some of the other posts in this thread.
I know they aren't directed at me but I can't help but feel bad that I started this thread as everyone seems to be arguing, I didn't realise that clean eating was a fad word that would start this lol
I had no idea 'clean eating' was such a hot-button word here either. I'm newish
Yes here are the words to avoid on MFP:
1. Clean eating
2. Junk food
3. Good food
4. Bad food
5. Starvation mode
6. Cleansing
7. Any kind of weight loss pills
8. Fad diets of any kind
9. Making a list of words to avoid
Bottom line is they are looking for things to argue about. So as soon as someone uses a particular word they will side track the entire post making the OP wish they hadn't asked a question in the first place.
Are you going to provide anything to the conversation other that criticizing or trying to create more drama?
Actually I already did? Are you not following along or are you looking for things to argue about?
Please point out where you contributed positively to this thread.0 -
chezzabelle82 wrote: »Ok won't do clean eating then just thought it might help give me a kick up the backside to being good with what I eat after a very stressful (including a family bereavement) month and to help me stop reaching for the crap food to help me feel good. Thanks for all your replies
OP - if you really want to embark on clean eating then by all means do it. I think what some of the other posters are saying is that it is almost impossible to define what "clean" eating is, and that you really should not view food as good/bad/evil/clean etc. Food is just food that you use for energy and to get nutrients.
Also, there is nothing inherently wrong with processed foods, and if you boil it down all foods are processed on some level. Unless, you are going to grow your own vegetables, and hunt your own meat??
I would suggest looking at a diet that is nutrient dense, hits micros/macros, and then mix in some treats that you like so that you are not going crazy trying to avoid "bad' foods..so if you want ice cream, have ice cream ..or pizza, or cookies, etc..
that is my .02
I think your 2¢ is worth at least $2 on this one
More like $20.00. 0 -
stevencloser wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »juliebowman4 wrote: »Sarasmaintaining wrote: »chezzabelle82 wrote: »I will still be logging my cals but I thought eating non processed stuff would be better for me all round (including losing weight)
Nope. Weight loss is about calories, math and eating at a calorie deficit. Eating certain foods or not eating certain foods will not help or hinder you, it comes down to if you're eating at an appropriate calorie deficit or not.
I *could* eat 1200 calories in twinkies a day and lose weight.
Or I could eat 1200 calories of fish, veggies, eggs and fruit.....and lose weight.
One IS definitely better.
I think this is what the OP meant.
Why is it always 1200 calories of ***insert "junk" food*** vs. Fish, veggies, eggs etc? I've never seen anyone on MFP advocate a Twinkie diet.
That's the logical response to a statement that makes this claim and then stops: "Weight loss is about calories, math and eating at a calorie deficit. Eating certain foods or not eating certain foods will not help or hinder you, it comes down to if you're eating at an appropriate calorie deficit or not."
Sure, I could eat 1600 calories of iceberg lettuce and lose weight, or I could have 1600 calories of some cereal, meats and veggies, eggs, dessert, maybe some McDonalds or other fast food if it fits.
One IS definitely better.
OT, but I wonder how much iceberg lettuce would equal 1600 calories? Surely I would die of boredom before plowing through that much.
If I didn't kill myself, first. 0 -
snickerscharlie wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »juliebowman4 wrote: »Sarasmaintaining wrote: »chezzabelle82 wrote: »I will still be logging my cals but I thought eating non processed stuff would be better for me all round (including losing weight)
Nope. Weight loss is about calories, math and eating at a calorie deficit. Eating certain foods or not eating certain foods will not help or hinder you, it comes down to if you're eating at an appropriate calorie deficit or not.
I *could* eat 1200 calories in twinkies a day and lose weight.
Or I could eat 1200 calories of fish, veggies, eggs and fruit.....and lose weight.
One IS definitely better.
I think this is what the OP meant.
Why is it always 1200 calories of ***insert "junk" food*** vs. Fish, veggies, eggs etc? I've never seen anyone on MFP advocate a Twinkie diet.
That's the logical response to a statement that makes this claim and then stops: "Weight loss is about calories, math and eating at a calorie deficit. Eating certain foods or not eating certain foods will not help or hinder you, it comes down to if you're eating at an appropriate calorie deficit or not."
Sure, I could eat 1600 calories of iceberg lettuce and lose weight, or I could have 1600 calories of some cereal, meats and veggies, eggs, dessert, maybe some McDonalds or other fast food if it fits.
One IS definitely better.
OT, but I wonder how much iceberg lettuce would equal 1600 calories? Surely I would die of boredom before plowing through that much.
If I didn't kill myself, first.
According to the database, it'd be about 160 cups of shredded iceberg lettuce, or about 11.4 kg.
aka, a ****-ton.0 -
juliebowman4 wrote: »chezzabelle82 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »chezzabelle82 wrote: »I am gonna just carry cal counting and make better choices with food I am sure j will lose the weight I have put on eating biscuits, crisps etc... At some point
This sounds really sensible, but if focusing on improving your diet helps you and putting together a plan to do that, I think that's great. I just don't think you should feel like you must choose between an overall poor diet and never eating cookies again (or think it's some sin to used canned beans if dry are inconvenient). But for me it actually does help to focus on cooking from whole foods (which I enjoy) and eating lots of veggies, especially now when things are coming in season, and getting my nutrition goals met before fitting something extra into my calories (which I do pretty much every day in some way--ice cream or cheese or some such).
My "clean eating" arguments aren't directed at you, but some of the other posts in this thread.
I know they aren't directed at me but I can't help but feel bad that I started this thread as everyone seems to be arguing, I didn't realise that clean eating was a fad word that would start this lol
I had no idea 'clean eating' was such a hot-button word here either. I'm newish
Yes here are the words to avoid on MFP:
1. Clean eating
2. Junk food
3. Good food
4. Bad food
5. Starvation mode
6. Cleansing
7. Any kind of weight loss pills
8. Fad diets of any kind
9. Making a list of words to avoid
Bottom line is they are looking for things to argue about. So as soon as someone uses a particular word they will side track the entire post making the OP wish they hadn't asked a question in the first place.
the reason those are "hot button" topics is because most of the time they contain pseudo or bro science and the more knowledgable members want to correct the misleading information for the benefit of the OP and/or newbies.
it has nothing to do with "looking for things to argue about," which is what you appear to be doing.
and please stop derailing this thread.0 -
_Terrapin_ wrote: »
What are bacon toasties?TavistockToad wrote: »chezzabelle82 wrote: »I will still be logging my cals but I thought eating non processed stuff would be better for me all round (including losing weight)
If it works for you then great, personally I like my fat free Greek yoghurt, cheese and protein flapjacks too much to eat 'clean'.
Agree ...although I don't do flapjacks ...but I do do mars ice cream bars and bacon toasties
Cannot tell if serious? :bigsmile: ..it is breakfast in bed and saves many a marriage
White farmhouse toast, butter, 2 rashers grilled back bacon, egg optional and either Heinz ketchup or HP sauce with a mug of coffee
Quoting partly because this photo needs to be seen more on the thread, and partly because one thing I miss from Atlanta was that Publix had a Brit shelf that had HP sauce, Jammie Dodgers, Aero bars and other stuff. I passed on the canned spotted dick, however.
Where I am now, no Brit shelves.
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juliebowman4 wrote: »chezzabelle82 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »chezzabelle82 wrote: »I am gonna just carry cal counting and make better choices with food I am sure j will lose the weight I have put on eating biscuits, crisps etc... At some point
This sounds really sensible, but if focusing on improving your diet helps you and putting together a plan to do that, I think that's great. I just don't think you should feel like you must choose between an overall poor diet and never eating cookies again (or think it's some sin to used canned beans if dry are inconvenient). But for me it actually does help to focus on cooking from whole foods (which I enjoy) and eating lots of veggies, especially now when things are coming in season, and getting my nutrition goals met before fitting something extra into my calories (which I do pretty much every day in some way--ice cream or cheese or some such).
My "clean eating" arguments aren't directed at you, but some of the other posts in this thread.
I know they aren't directed at me but I can't help but feel bad that I started this thread as everyone seems to be arguing, I didn't realise that clean eating was a fad word that would start this lol
I had no idea 'clean eating' was such a hot-button word here either. I'm newish
Yes here are the words to avoid on MFP:
1. Clean eating
2. Junk food
3. Good food
4. Bad food
5. Starvation mode
6. Cleansing
7. Any kind of weight loss pills
8. Fad diets of any kind
9. Making a list of words to avoid
Bottom line is they are looking for things to argue about. So as soon as someone uses a particular word they will side track the entire post making the OP wish they hadn't asked a question in the first place.
the reason those are "hot button" topics is because most of the time they contain pseudo or bro science and the more knowledgable members want to correct the misleading information for the benefit of the OP and/or newbies.
it has nothing to do with "looking for things to argue about," which is what you appear to be doing.
and please stop derailing this thread.
If you notice, the people that were asked to clarify their misrepresentation of what members really said never returned. So I think we see what the solution to this whole Twinkie debate is finally. When they use it just copy and paste the repeated requests to show the actual posts and remind everyone how they run every time they are asked for proof. Because they do run away, every time.
you may be on to something….
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juliebowman4 wrote: »chezzabelle82 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »chezzabelle82 wrote: »I am gonna just carry cal counting and make better choices with food I am sure j will lose the weight I have put on eating biscuits, crisps etc... At some point
This sounds really sensible, but if focusing on improving your diet helps you and putting together a plan to do that, I think that's great. I just don't think you should feel like you must choose between an overall poor diet and never eating cookies again (or think it's some sin to used canned beans if dry are inconvenient). But for me it actually does help to focus on cooking from whole foods (which I enjoy) and eating lots of veggies, especially now when things are coming in season, and getting my nutrition goals met before fitting something extra into my calories (which I do pretty much every day in some way--ice cream or cheese or some such).
My "clean eating" arguments aren't directed at you, but some of the other posts in this thread.
I know they aren't directed at me but I can't help but feel bad that I started this thread as everyone seems to be arguing, I didn't realise that clean eating was a fad word that would start this lol
I had no idea 'clean eating' was such a hot-button word here either. I'm newish
Yes here are the words to avoid on MFP:
1. Clean eating
2. Junk food
3. Good food
4. Bad food
5. Starvation mode
6. Cleansing
7. Any kind of weight loss pills
8. Fad diets of any kind
9. Making a list of words to avoid
Bottom line is they are looking for things to argue about. So as soon as someone uses a particular word they will side track the entire post making the OP wish they hadn't asked a question in the first place.
the reason those are "hot button" topics is because most of the time they contain pseudo or bro science and the more knowledgable members want to correct the misleading information for the benefit of the OP and/or newbies.
it has nothing to do with "looking for things to argue about," which is what you appear to be doing.
and please stop derailing this thread.
If you notice, the people that were asked to clarify their misrepresentation of what members really said never returned. So I think we see what the solution to this whole Twinkie debate is finally. When they use it just copy and paste the repeated requests to show the actual posts and remind everyone how they run every time they are asked for proof. Because they do run away, every time.
They'll be back. They're probably out harvesting their heirloom veggies and butchering their grass-fed cows.0 -
I ate a Twinkie once. My other half told me how delicious they were.
He was wrong.
Oh boy was he wrong. It tasted like bath sponge with shaving foam injected into the middle of it.
Shudder.0 -
snickerscharlie wrote: »
Cutting down on packaged and prepared foods is always helpful, because if you can make a similar item yourself at home, you have complete control over the ingredients. Especially with items like sodium. But 'processed foods' aren't the debil - like with all foods, how much you eat of them is what really matters. You can consume only organic bananas and bottled water, for example, and still pack on the pounds. There's no magic. There's only CICO.
Very true. It makes sense for most people to eat more healthy by making as many meals from whole, fresh ingredients as often as possible instead of pre-packaged meals and mixes, but it is almost impossible for most people to cut out all processed foods. I like to say I eat as few "convenience foods" as possible. I make my oatmeal from oats rather than packages. I make pancakes from individual ingredients rather than boxed mixes. I rarely eat a frozen dinner. My taco seasoning is a mix of herbs and spices rather than the high sodium stuff that comes in packets. I don't like the term "clean eating" but I do tend to eat the way many describe. I just don't cut out anything.
This.0 -
NobodyPutsAmyInTheCorner wrote: »I ate a Twinkie once. My other half told me how delicious they were.
He was wrong.
Oh boy was he wrong. It tasted like bath sponge with shaving foam injected into the middle of it.
Shudder.
i fail to see the relevance of this ….0 -
There was an overweight nutrition professor that did a 1600 cal "twinkie diet" - ate junk food, protein shakes, and a multivitamin.
He not only lost weight, his health markers improved - blood pressure, cholesterol, glucose.0 -
NobodyPutsAmyInTheCorner wrote: »I ate a Twinkie once. My other half told me how delicious they were.
He was wrong.
Oh boy was he wrong. It tasted like bath sponge with shaving foam injected into the middle of it.
Shudder.
i fail to see the relevance of this ….
There were so many references to Twinkies and not eating clean that my head sort of exploded.
To the OP... There is nothing wrong with eating less processed food if it makes you feel good inside. Each to their own. 0 -
NobodyPutsAmyInTheCorner wrote: »NobodyPutsAmyInTheCorner wrote: »I ate a Twinkie once. My other half told me how delicious they were.
He was wrong.
Oh boy was he wrong. It tasted like bath sponge with shaving foam injected into the middle of it.
Shudder.
i fail to see the relevance of this ….
There were so many references to Twinkies and not eating clean that my head sort of exploded.
To the OP... There is nothing wrong with eating less processed food if it makes you feel good inside. Each to their own.
so the taste of twinkies is now relevant to this thread?0 -
NobodyPutsAmyInTheCorner wrote: »NobodyPutsAmyInTheCorner wrote: »I ate a Twinkie once. My other half told me how delicious they were.
He was wrong.
Oh boy was he wrong. It tasted like bath sponge with shaving foam injected into the middle of it.
Shudder.
i fail to see the relevance of this ….
There were so many references to Twinkies and not eating clean that my head sort of exploded.
To the OP... There is nothing wrong with eating less processed food if it makes you feel good inside. Each to their own.
so the taste of twinkies is now relevant to this thread?
About as relevant as bacon which has taken up plenty of space.
What's wrong with you today?0
This discussion has been closed.
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