Looking for nerd/science answer - losing inches but not really pounds...
Replies
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I think that there is a tendency to black and white body composition into muscle and fat. That doesn't really account for what is happening when humans change the physical demands on their bodies and modify what the are eating. As we exercise we build muscle fibers, new mitochondria, glycogen stores, blood, capilaries..even bone density and marrow.0
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colors_fade wrote: »My guess is that you are turning your fat into lean muscle mass because of the heavy lifting. When I tend to start lifting weights my weight loss slows but I continue to lose inches. I would bet your body fat % is getting lower, that may be how you want to track.
But I thought that was impossible on a deficit?
Turning fat into muscle is biologically impossible
But I know that's not what the guy meant.
It is possible to increase muscle mass while losing fat on a deficit; it's not "impossible", or else "recomp" wouldn't be a thing.
It's just very difficult to do, in particular because while you're in a calorie deficit, protein synthesis is slowed down, and that's the key to the muscles growing.
But it's possible, especially for folks who haven't strength trained before.
http://evidencemag.com/minimalist-recomposition?__s=wyzycccxsoaihk2xqsw7
So you're losing inches, which means you're losing body fat. But the scale is staying roughly the same, which means you're gaining some lean muscle mass to compensate for the weight of the lost fat. And since muscle is more dense than fat, yep, you'll lose inches.
That's a different use of recomp than I usually see used.
Normally I see recomp used as staying at maintenance (or frequent switching between slight deficit and slight surplus) to lose fat during times of deficit and gain muscle at times of surplus.0 -
LolBroScience wrote: »colors_fade wrote: »My guess is that you are turning your fat into lean muscle mass because of the heavy lifting. When I tend to start lifting weights my weight loss slows but I continue to lose inches. I would bet your body fat % is getting lower, that may be how you want to track.
But I thought that was impossible on a deficit?
Turning fat into muscle is biologically impossible
But I know that's not what the guy meant.
It is possible to increase muscle mass while losing fat on a deficit; it's not "impossible", or else "recomp" wouldn't be a thing.
It's just very difficult to do, in particular because while you're in a calorie deficit, protein synthesis is slowed down, and that's the key to the muscles growing.
But it's possible, especially for folks who haven't strength trained before.
http://evidencemag.com/minimalist-recomposition?__s=wyzycccxsoaihk2xqsw7
So you're losing inches, which means you're losing body fat. But the scale is staying roughly the same, which means you're gaining some lean muscle mass to compensate for the weight of the lost fat. And since muscle is more dense than fat, yep, you'll lose inches.
OP is not new to lifting. OP has also lost 5 pounds on her small frame which could account for said inches.
Possibly not new to lifting, but new to a consistent routine with progressive overload?
Even so, recomposition can allegedly occur in advanced trainees as well...
On the 500 calorie deficit she is insisting she has?
ETA: it was suggested on page 1 that she may be inadvertently doing a recomp. She poo pooed that idea.
Can you let me know when I "poo pooed" that idea? I only said from what I had read before that a recomp was difficult, especially to not be done on purpose, and I needed to learn more about it. And obviously I have a deficit if I've lost inches so... That's never what I asked for help with.
And to many others who have left comments about what answer I want -- I already said that I think Bambi was the most succinct by saying the 5lb = the inches, and in my head I must have expected a larger number vs what I see/feel. So I am not asking for a specific unicorn answer any longer. Talking it through has given me perspective, and options to consider.
And mamapeach - I continued to talk with you and respond to you, so not sure why you say I didn't want to hear what you had to say about the topic I was asking. I believe I conveyed the opposite by engaging and was finding some of your questions to be a good "devil's advocate" for me. I'm not obese so I don't have the room to lose 12 inches or whatever around my waist but I appreciate your input.
Thanks to all that took the time to answer. A good little snarky post is always lots of fun!0 -
How do your clothes fit?
The reason I'm asking this is that tape measurements? Well, I admit, I'm not the best. I've lost almost 44 pounds. You know what? I measure myself????? Except for my waist, I still get the same measurements. And yet, my old pants fall off me.
We really are not very good when it comes to measuring ourselves.0 -
stevencloser wrote: »colors_fade wrote: »My guess is that you are turning your fat into lean muscle mass because of the heavy lifting. When I tend to start lifting weights my weight loss slows but I continue to lose inches. I would bet your body fat % is getting lower, that may be how you want to track.
But I thought that was impossible on a deficit?
Turning fat into muscle is biologically impossible
But I know that's not what the guy meant.
It is possible to increase muscle mass while losing fat on a deficit; it's not "impossible", or else "recomp" wouldn't be a thing.
It's just very difficult to do, in particular because while you're in a calorie deficit, protein synthesis is slowed down, and that's the key to the muscles growing.
But it's possible, especially for folks who haven't strength trained before.
http://evidencemag.com/minimalist-recomposition?__s=wyzycccxsoaihk2xqsw7
So you're losing inches, which means you're losing body fat. But the scale is staying roughly the same, which means you're gaining some lean muscle mass to compensate for the weight of the lost fat. And since muscle is more dense than fat, yep, you'll lose inches.
That's a different use of recomp than I usually see used.
Normally I see recomp used as staying at maintenance (or frequent switching between slight deficit and slight surplus) to lose fat during times of deficit and gain muscle at times of surplus.
Isn't that basically what it is in the example?
2500 cals on lifting days
2300 cals on off days
2500 cals = maintenance0 -
Just throwing this out there, don't think of deficit and surplus as off switches, think of them as a dimmer switch.
Since OP asked for a nerd response, I'd say what you really have is math similar to this:
muscle growth = protein synthesis rate - existing muscle*maintenance synthesis requirement
with protein synthesis being a non-linear relation that increases with calories, rest, exertion stimulus, hormone signaling, and a fair amount of other factors. I'm not sure about even being to sketch an equation for that as exertion is necessary for stimulus, but it also removes calories from the system, and even probably has a hard limit where it burns out existing structures because calories can't be shuttled into the system for use as fuel fast enough.0 -
peachyfuzzle wrote: »
There is a good photo on this site showing the physical size of 5 lbs muscle vs 5 lbs fat.
http://bamboocorefitness.com/one-pound-of-fat-versus-one-pound-of-muscle-clearing-up-the-misconception/0 -
Great, all these links ever do is make me hungry for sashimi tuna.unrelentingminx wrote: »peachyfuzzle wrote: »
There is a good photo on this site showing the physical size of 5 lbs muscle vs 5 lbs fat.
http://bamboocorefitness.com/one-pound-of-fat-versus-one-pound-of-muscle-clearing-up-the-misconception/
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I know there are a ton of threads about this, and typically the answer is "water". But this for me has been a solid 3 months of accurate weighing/logging and lifting heavy (Stronglifts). Since the beginning of March, the scale has shown at MOST a loss of 5lbs (I weighed in at this much of a loss only once about 2 weeks ago - I consistently see a number that shows a 3.5 - 4lb loss). But in comparing pictures and also my clothes, I am losing inches, which of course, I will take! But what is the real reason this is happening since I'm eating at a deficit? Is it still just water or what?
The deficit I am eating at should be around a 1lb loss per week. I say around because I know it's hard to find an accurate TDEE number. I'm assuming I am eating at a decent deficit to be losing inches, but is that an inaccurate assumption? Should I cut calories even more?
things to consider:
Toning muscle with resistance training is the quickest way to shrink your muscles and lose inches. Good job. Keep that up. Some exercises can "pump" your muscles so make a note to yourself on what exercises slim you and what exercises pump your muscles up. The pump muscle will be smooth. The slim muscle may appear stringy and perhaps defined.
1. your TDEE to lose weight should be your lean body muscle mass. Take that amount of weight and x 10 to get your body weight TDEE calories you should be fueling for fat loss. Knowing how to determine your lean body muscle mass requires you to subtract your body fat % weight from total body weight. Since your profile picture is a dog, who looks to be about 30% body fat, be sure to take your total body weight and multiply it by .7 to get your lean body muscle mass. So if you are 200#, you take 200x7=1400 TDEE calories. Yeah, that is low! But these are nutrient dense, no empty calorie fuel calories!
2. exercise to burn fat and raise your metabolism without losing muscle mass.
3. eat to refuel the body with nutrient dense food, nothing processed and nothing high glycemic index
4. no cheat meals while you are on a diet to lose body fat
5. stay hydrated and supplemented with all of your essential water soluble vitamins
6. eat at least one meal a day of green leafy veggies and colorful stuff
7. massages to get the swole out of the muscles after exercise is key to flushing out the lymph system. Ice packs too.
8. never diet like point no. 1 for more than 4 weeks at a time. By week two you should be dropping body fat quickly if you are below your TDEE.
9. be sure that your are measuring all food and beverages BEFORE cooking and prep. Raw foods are to be measured for calories.
10. Go get your annual physical check up by your doctor, and demand a full blood workup to check blood sugar levels, electrolytes, hormones.
11. Don't sabotauge yourself by eating dessert, drinking alcohol, and cheating.
12. Get your biggest meal of the day before your workout.
best wishes.
CoachTeresaCPT advanced CPT
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busywaterbending wrote: »I know there are a ton of threads about this, and typically the answer is "water". But this for me has been a solid 3 months of accurate weighing/logging and lifting heavy (Stronglifts). Since the beginning of March, the scale has shown at MOST a loss of 5lbs (I weighed in at this much of a loss only once about 2 weeks ago - I consistently see a number that shows a 3.5 - 4lb loss). But in comparing pictures and also my clothes, I am losing inches, which of course, I will take! But what is the real reason this is happening since I'm eating at a deficit? Is it still just water or what?
The deficit I am eating at should be around a 1lb loss per week. I say around because I know it's hard to find an accurate TDEE number. I'm assuming I am eating at a decent deficit to be losing inches, but is that an inaccurate assumption? Should I cut calories even more?
things to consider:
Toning muscle with resistance training is the quickest way to shrink your muscles and lose inches. Good job. Keep that up. Some exercises can "pump" your muscles so make a note to yourself on what exercises slim you and what exercises pump your muscles up. The pump muscle will be smooth. The slim muscle may appear stringy and perhaps defined.
1. your TDEE to lose weight should be your lean body muscle mass - 10# for organs and skeleton. Take that amount of weight and x 10 to get your body weight you should be fueling for fat loss. Knowing how to determine your lean body muscle mass requires you to subtract your body fat % weight from total body weight. Since your profile picture is a dog, who looks to be about 30% body fat, be sure to take your total body weight and multiply it by .7 to get your lean body muscle mass.
2. exercise to burn fat and raise your metabolism without losing muscle mass.
3. eat to refuel the body with nutrient dense food, nothing processed and nothing high glycemic index
4. no cheat meals while you are on a diet to lose body fat
5. stay hydrated and supplemented with all of your essential water soluble vitamins
6. eat at least one meal a day of green leafy veggies and colorful stuff
7. massages to get the swole out of the muscles after exercise is key to flushing out the lymph system. Ice packs too.
8. never diet like point no. 1 for more than 4 weeks at a time. By week two you should be dropping body fat quickly if you are below your TDEE.
9. be sure that your are measuring all food and beverages BEFORE cooking and prep. Raw foods are to be measured for calories.
10. Go get your annual physical check up by your doctor, and demand a full blood workup to check blood sugar levels, electrolytes, hormones.
11. Don't sabotauge yourself by eating dessert, drinking alcohol, and cheating.
best wishes.
CoachTeresaCPT advanced CPT
1. Your TDEE is your Total Daily Energy Expenditure. It's not clear what you're trying to say in point 1, especially since you mentioned the OP's dog then started talking about their body fat percentage.
2. Exercising to preserve muscle mass is too general a piece of advice. Resistance training would be more to the point.
3. Eating to fuel the body is good. Nutrition is good. Processing or the glycemic index are irrelevant and up to personal preference.
4. I'm personally not a fan of cheat meals, but many people can work an indulgent meal into their fat loss efforts by budgeting their calories for them. Eating a little less throughout the week to save for a dinner on a Saturday night, for example.
5. Hydration is good.
6. A whole meal of just veggies? I agree that veggies are great. So is fruit. No reason to eat them in isolation.
7. Just no.
8. Point one was ambiguous. All that is needed to diet is to create a reasonable calorie deficit. TDEE of current weight minus 10-20%, depending on one's current weight and goals.
9. Well, we agree on something, though there's nothing wrong with measuring the occasional cooked entry. Some things are best measured that way, like spaghetti squash, or the meat from a whole, roasted chicken.
10. Not a bad idea.
11. No. It's a bad idea to deprive yourself of things you plan to integrate into your life on maintenance. Learning to moderate and consume such things within your calorie goals (if they are not triggers for out of control free-for-all's) is a much better strategy in terms of long-term success.
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Thanks for saying this! My waist and pants are doing the same thing.PeachyCarol wrote: »How do your clothes fit?
The reason I'm asking this is that tape measurements? Well, I admit, I'm not the best. I've lost almost 44 pounds. You know what? I measure myself????? Except for my waist, I still get the same measurements. And yet, my old pants fall off me.
We really are not very good when it comes to measuring ourselves.
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daniwilford wrote: »
Thanks for saying this! My waist and pants are doing the same thing.PeachyCarol wrote: »How do your clothes fit?
The reason I'm asking this is that tape measurements? Well, I admit, I'm not the best. I've lost almost 44 pounds. You know what? I measure myself????? Except for my waist, I still get the same measurements. And yet, my old pants fall off me.
We really are not very good when it comes to measuring ourselves.
I have to laugh, this is an old thread. I've lost 47.4 pounds now! Congrats on the falling off pants!
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UltimateRBF wrote: »busywaterbending wrote: »I know there are a ton of threads about this, and typically the answer is "water". But this for me has been a solid 3 months of accurate weighing/logging and lifting heavy (Stronglifts). Since the beginning of March, the scale has shown at MOST a loss of 5lbs (I weighed in at this much of a loss only once about 2 weeks ago - I consistently see a number that shows a 3.5 - 4lb loss). But in comparing pictures and also my clothes, I am losing inches, which of course, I will take! But what is the real reason this is happening since I'm eating at a deficit? Is it still just water or what?
The deficit I am eating at should be around a 1lb loss per week. I say around because I know it's hard to find an accurate TDEE number. I'm assuming I am eating at a decent deficit to be losing inches, but is that an inaccurate assumption? Should I cut calories even more?
things to consider:
Toning muscle with resistance training is the quickest way to shrink your muscles and lose inches. Good job. Keep that up. Some exercises can "pump" your muscles so make a note to yourself on what exercises slim you and what exercises pump your muscles up. The pump muscle will be smooth. The slim muscle may appear stringy and perhaps defined.
1. your TDEE to lose weight should be your lean body muscle mass. Take that amount of weight and x 10 to get your body weight TDEE calories you should be fueling for fat loss. Knowing how to determine your lean body muscle mass requires you to subtract your body fat % weight from total body weight. Since your profile picture is a dog, who looks to be about 30% body fat, be sure to take your total body weight and multiply it by .7 to get your lean body muscle mass. So if you are 200#, you take 200x7=1400 TDEE calories. Yeah, that is low! But these are nutrient dense, no empty calorie fuel calories!
2. exercise to burn fat and raise your metabolism without losing muscle mass.
3. eat to refuel the body with nutrient dense food, nothing processed and nothing high glycemic index
4. no cheat meals while you are on a diet to lose body fat
5. stay hydrated and supplemented with all of your essential water soluble vitamins
6. eat at least one meal a day of green leafy veggies and colorful stuff
7. massages to get the swole out of the muscles after exercise is key to flushing out the lymph system. Ice packs too.
8. never diet like point no. 1 for more than 4 weeks at a time. By week two you should be dropping body fat quickly if you are below your TDEE.
9. be sure that your are measuring all food and beverages BEFORE cooking and prep. Raw foods are to be measured for calories.
10. Go get your annual physical check up by your doctor, and demand a full blood workup to check blood sugar levels, electrolytes, hormones.
11. Don't sabotauge yourself by eating dessert, drinking alcohol, and cheating.
12. Get your biggest meal of the day before your workout.
best wishes.
CoachTeresaCPT advanced CPT
LOLOLOL
What?
The real question... is the dog swole?
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UltimateRBF wrote: »busywaterbending wrote: »I know there are a ton of threads about this, and typically the answer is "water". But this for me has been a solid 3 months of accurate weighing/logging and lifting heavy (Stronglifts). Since the beginning of March, the scale has shown at MOST a loss of 5lbs (I weighed in at this much of a loss only once about 2 weeks ago - I consistently see a number that shows a 3.5 - 4lb loss). But in comparing pictures and also my clothes, I am losing inches, which of course, I will take! But what is the real reason this is happening since I'm eating at a deficit? Is it still just water or what?
The deficit I am eating at should be around a 1lb loss per week. I say around because I know it's hard to find an accurate TDEE number. I'm assuming I am eating at a decent deficit to be losing inches, but is that an inaccurate assumption? Should I cut calories even more?
things to consider:
Toning muscle with resistance training is the quickest way to shrink your muscles and lose inches. Good job. Keep that up. Some exercises can "pump" your muscles so make a note to yourself on what exercises slim you and what exercises pump your muscles up. The pump muscle will be smooth. The slim muscle may appear stringy and perhaps defined.
1. your TDEE to lose weight should be your lean body muscle mass. Take that amount of weight and x 10 to get your body weight TDEE calories you should be fueling for fat loss. Knowing how to determine your lean body muscle mass requires you to subtract your body fat % weight from total body weight. Since your profile picture is a dog, who looks to be about 30% body fat, be sure to take your total body weight and multiply it by .7 to get your lean body muscle mass. So if you are 200#, you take 200x7=1400 TDEE calories. Yeah, that is low! But these are nutrient dense, no empty calorie fuel calories!
2. exercise to burn fat and raise your metabolism without losing muscle mass.
3. eat to refuel the body with nutrient dense food, nothing processed and nothing high glycemic index
4. no cheat meals while you are on a diet to lose body fat
5. stay hydrated and supplemented with all of your essential water soluble vitamins
6. eat at least one meal a day of green leafy veggies and colorful stuff
7. massages to get the swole out of the muscles after exercise is key to flushing out the lymph system. Ice packs too.
8. never diet like point no. 1 for more than 4 weeks at a time. By week two you should be dropping body fat quickly if you are below your TDEE.
9. be sure that your are measuring all food and beverages BEFORE cooking and prep. Raw foods are to be measured for calories.
10. Go get your annual physical check up by your doctor, and demand a full blood workup to check blood sugar levels, electrolytes, hormones.
11. Don't sabotauge yourself by eating dessert, drinking alcohol, and cheating.
12. Get your biggest meal of the day before your workout.
best wishes.
CoachTeresaCPT advanced CPT
LOLOLOL
What?
LMAO!
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Does anyone here take into consideration BMR at all?0
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busywaterbending wrote: »...
1. your TDEE to lose weight should be your lean body muscle mass. Take that amount of weight and x 10 to get your body weight TDEE calories you should be fueling for fat loss. Knowing how to determine your lean body muscle mass requires you to subtract your body fat % weight from total body weight. Since your profile picture is a dog, who looks to be about 30% body fat, be sure to take your total body weight and multiply it by .7 to get your lean body muscle mass. So if you are 200#, you take 200x7=1400 TDEE calories. Yeah, that is low! But these are nutrient dense, no empty calorie fuel calories!
...
best wishes.
CoachTeresaCPT advanced CPT
busywaterbending, you're definitely a bender and it's obvious you're bending other things besides water.
Would you please share what area of US you coach - I've got ti check if I need to alert any relatives in that area.0 -
Bump, so I can read later 0
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busywaterbending wrote: »
1. your TDEE to lose weight should be your lean body muscle mass. Take that amount of weight and x 10 to get your body weight TDEE calories you should be fueling for fat loss. Knowing how to determine your lean body muscle mass requires you to subtract your body fat % weight from total body weight. Since your profile picture is a dog, who looks to be about 30% body fat, be sure to take your total body weight and multiply it by .7 to get your lean body muscle mass. So if you are 200#, you take 200x7=1400 TDEE calories. Yeah, that is low! But these are nutrient dense, no empty calorie fuel calories!
This method would give me a calorie goal of 1000.0 -
I'm sure others have already said this, but you know the saying "muscle weighs more than fat"? Well, that's sort of true. A pound of muscle is the same as a pound of fat. A pound is a pound. But muscle is more dense than fat. So you can fit a pound of muscle into a smaller space than you can to that pound of fat. So if you have been doing a lot of weight / strength training, then the scale may not move as much even though you are losing fat. If that makes sense.0
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Confirmed:PeachyCarol wrote: »UltimateRBF wrote: »busywaterbending wrote: »I know there are a ton of threads about this, and typically the answer is "water". But this for me has been a solid 3 months of accurate weighing/logging and lifting heavy (Stronglifts). Since the beginning of March, the scale has shown at MOST a loss of 5lbs (I weighed in at this much of a loss only once about 2 weeks ago - I consistently see a number that shows a 3.5 - 4lb loss). But in comparing pictures and also my clothes, I am losing inches, which of course, I will take! But what is the real reason this is happening since I'm eating at a deficit? Is it still just water or what?
The deficit I am eating at should be around a 1lb loss per week. I say around because I know it's hard to find an accurate TDEE number. I'm assuming I am eating at a decent deficit to be losing inches, but is that an inaccurate assumption? Should I cut calories even more?
things to consider:
Toning muscle with resistance training is the quickest way to shrink your muscles and lose inches. Good job. Keep that up. Some exercises can "pump" your muscles so make a note to yourself on what exercises slim you and what exercises pump your muscles up. The pump muscle will be smooth. The slim muscle may appear stringy and perhaps defined.
1. your TDEE to lose weight should be your lean body muscle mass. Take that amount of weight and x 10 to get your body weight TDEE calories you should be fueling for fat loss. Knowing how to determine your lean body muscle mass requires you to subtract your body fat % weight from total body weight. Since your profile picture is a dog, who looks to be about 30% body fat, be sure to take your total body weight and multiply it by .7 to get your lean body muscle mass. So if you are 200#, you take 200x7=1400 TDEE calories. Yeah, that is low! But these are nutrient dense, no empty calorie fuel calories!
2. exercise to burn fat and raise your metabolism without losing muscle mass.
3. eat to refuel the body with nutrient dense food, nothing processed and nothing high glycemic index
4. no cheat meals while you are on a diet to lose body fat
5. stay hydrated and supplemented with all of your essential water soluble vitamins
6. eat at least one meal a day of green leafy veggies and colorful stuff
7. massages to get the swole out of the muscles after exercise is key to flushing out the lymph system. Ice packs too.
8. never diet like point no. 1 for more than 4 weeks at a time. By week two you should be dropping body fat quickly if you are below your TDEE.
9. be sure that your are measuring all food and beverages BEFORE cooking and prep. Raw foods are to be measured for calories.
10. Go get your annual physical check up by your doctor, and demand a full blood workup to check blood sugar levels, electrolytes, hormones.
11. Don't sabotauge yourself by eating dessert, drinking alcohol, and cheating.
12. Get your biggest meal of the day before your workout.
best wishes.
CoachTeresaCPT advanced CPT
LOLOLOL
What?
The real question... is the dog swole?
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ILiftHeavyAcrylics wrote: »busywaterbending wrote: »
1. your TDEE to lose weight should be your lean body muscle mass. Take that amount of weight and x 10 to get your body weight TDEE calories you should be fueling for fat loss. Knowing how to determine your lean body muscle mass requires you to subtract your body fat % weight from total body weight. Since your profile picture is a dog, who looks to be about 30% body fat, be sure to take your total body weight and multiply it by .7 to get your lean body muscle mass. So if you are 200#, you take 200x7=1400 TDEE calories. Yeah, that is low! But these are nutrient dense, no empty calorie fuel calories!
This method would give me a calorie goal of 1000.
Unless we really are talking about my dog's body fat percentage, in which case it would be much lower.0 -
Wait, I can use a dog's TDEE or even just BMR for my calorie needs? Wait, I need to stop at the human society for five dogs and the grocery store for like 2 gallons of ice cream.0
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First "stupidize" and now "swole". MFP never fails to deliver.
Sorry for off topic OP, but I had to giggle at swole.
I have no science to offer, but my guess is you will have to create a bigger deficit if you want to lose. Maybe knock off 100 calories for a couple weeks and see what happens. Or burn 100 more a day from a 20 minute brisk walk.0 -
It seems odd that Hartmamp started pretty much the exact same thread two years ago:
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/938428/its-probably-unlikely-ive-gained-7lbs-of-muscle0 -
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