Low Carb Dieting - Induction Phase
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MoiAussi93 wrote: »You don't JUST lose water on low carb diets. You lose just as much fat as you would on any other diet. In fact, people with insulin resistance, PCOS or certain other issues might find it much easier to lose eating low carb. Also, ketogenic diets have an advantage in terms of body composition since they help prevent muscle loss.
But regardless, even if you do eventually reintroduce higher levels of carb...you might gain back the water weight (just a few pounds!!!) but all the fat will NOT come back. Also, the "and some more" in your reply is just plain wrong.
Ah blanket statements about IR and PCOS, which I happen to have (IR because of PCOS) .. I've lost just fine sticking to nothing more than a caloric deficit, thanks. Doing such a diet would be to help balance a MEDICAL condition, in conjunction with medication, to further assist with controlling the condition. It's also usually monitored by a medical professional such as an endocrinologist along the way. It's not the same thing as "I want to go low carb for a few weeks because I think it's going to 'kickstart' my weight loss".
The point is that this person is not as well versed as she would like to think she is, and to jump into a diet that isn't really intended to be a short-term quick fix is fairly irresponsible. One would imagine as a proponent of low carbing you would prefer that people fully understand what they are doing, not flippantly say "I don't know if it's even going to work".0 -
As an FYI, CICO is not a diet, its an energy balance equation. What most people insinuate when they say CICO is flexible dieting or IIFYM. With this diet you set macros based on goals and plan to achieve those specific numbers. In most cases in MFP, the diet is moderate protein (.8 to 1g per lb of lean body mass), .35 to .6g of fats and the rest carbs. Based on total number of caloriea alloted and satiety requirements, so will lower carbs and increase fats.
In the end, finding a diet that is balanced and allows you to achieve your goals is a good plan. Some thrive with low carb, some with mod carb, some with vegan, others with paleo.... in the end, if it keeps you accountable, then its a good diet or lifestyle (which ever you prefer).
The low carb group has a lot of information in it to get set up correctly. Start with that and you will be good.0 -
stevencloser wrote: »http://www.ketogenic-diet-resource.com
Lots of info such as recipes/ foods/ and the concept of what its all about.IsaackGMOON wrote: »ajmurray1234 wrote: »Liftng4Lis wrote: »You do realize what will happen once you reintroduce carbs right?
So you've done it before? I haven't so no, I don't know what will happen. I don't even know if this will work.
Cheers
Well when you restrict carbohydrates you drop a lot of water weight.
Reintroduction of carbohydrates means you'll gain that water weight back, and some more.ajmurray1234 wrote: »IsaackGMOON wrote: »Why bother if it's just for 2 weeks? I don't see the point.
Low carbing doesn't make you lose any more fat than restricting calories... weight loss is all about calories.
I still don't see the point in this.
9
2 weeks is supposed to put your body in a state of Ketosis so your fat stores are used for energy instead of carbs.
I don't know how this going to work, I just know I have been restricting but w/out the desired results. So.. I'm trying something different.
Cheers
Again, there's literally no point in this. It takes much longer than 2 weeks to become fat adapted. Even so, the reintroduction of carbohydrates will mean you are no longer fat adapted. Also, your body doesn't just use carbs as an energy source in a normal diet...
Just no.
Dont worry about these type of people. Keto aka LCHF works great, fat and protein are much more filling and really keep hunger pains at bay. Also any "cravings" aka sugar cravings will be gone.
If you want to fat adapt quickly i would recommend doing:
A 16 hour fast, say 8pm to noon, then try and do a full body depletion workout during the fast. Then eat at a macro split of 80-85% fat 15-20 protein, carbs as low as poss. Just for a day maybe 2.
This should help with getting into ketosis much faster.
Remember to keep sodium intake (5000mg/day) and potassium, magnesium up. If not you will probably feel lousy.
Gl
http://keto-calculator.ankerl.com
Isaac was completely right on every single point though.
No actually he wasnt.
When carbs are reintroduced yes water weight will return.
The " and more" is false and misinformation.
And given the choice between carbs/ glucose and fat the body prefers and will use glucose/carbs First for energy.
Nice try though
Completely depends on whether the person remains in a calorie deficit when reintroducing the carbohydrates. If not, then weight will also be regained, along with the water weight.0 -
I agree it takes 3 grueling weeks to get there, but you can do it! I'm not sure I'll stay Ketogenic forever, but I'll agree with the person that said setting an upper limit of 100 grams/day max would be best. Hovering in the 70-80 range maybe.....a little more flexible yet still very healthy without fat accumulation. Right now I am at about 10 grams/day.
At 10 grams of carbs per day you can't be eating a reasonable amount of veg. Even if that's net carbs.
I ran mine and eat about 35 net carbs from vegetables.0 -
As an FYI, CICO is not a diet, its an energy balance equation. What most people insinuate when they say CICO is flexible dieting or IIFYM. With this diet you set macros based on goals and plan to achieve those specific numbers. In most cases in MFP, the diet is moderate protein (.8 to 1g per lb of lean body mass), .35 to .6g of carbs and the rest carbs. Based on total number of caloriea alloted and satiety requirements, so will lower carbs and increase fats.
0.8 to 1g of protein per lb of anything is not moderate protein, and you mistyped that broscience fat ratio as "carbs".
MFP default is 20% of calories from protein, 30% from fat. http://myfitnesspal.desk.com/customer/portal/articles/1375583-a-message-about-myfitnesspal-s-updated-nutrition-goals
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stevencloser wrote: »http://www.ketogenic-diet-resource.com
Lots of info such as recipes/ foods/ and the concept of what its all about.IsaackGMOON wrote: »ajmurray1234 wrote: »Liftng4Lis wrote: »You do realize what will happen once you reintroduce carbs right?
So you've done it before? I haven't so no, I don't know what will happen. I don't even know if this will work.
Cheers
Well when you restrict carbohydrates you drop a lot of water weight.
Reintroduction of carbohydrates means you'll gain that water weight back, and some more.ajmurray1234 wrote: »IsaackGMOON wrote: »Why bother if it's just for 2 weeks? I don't see the point.
Low carbing doesn't make you lose any more fat than restricting calories... weight loss is all about calories.
I still don't see the point in this.
9
2 weeks is supposed to put your body in a state of Ketosis so your fat stores are used for energy instead of carbs.
I don't know how this going to work, I just know I have been restricting but w/out the desired results. So.. I'm trying something different.
Cheers
Again, there's literally no point in this. It takes much longer than 2 weeks to become fat adapted. Even so, the reintroduction of carbohydrates will mean you are no longer fat adapted. Also, your body doesn't just use carbs as an energy source in a normal diet...
Just no.
Dont worry about these type of people. Keto aka LCHF works great, fat and protein are much more filling and really keep hunger pains at bay. Also any "cravings" aka sugar cravings will be gone.
If you want to fat adapt quickly i would recommend doing:
A 16 hour fast, say 8pm to noon, then try and do a full body depletion workout during the fast. Then eat at a macro split of 80-85% fat 15-20 protein, carbs as low as poss. Just for a day maybe 2.
This should help with getting into ketosis much faster.
Remember to keep sodium intake (5000mg/day) and potassium, magnesium up. If not you will probably feel lousy.
Gl
http://keto-calculator.ankerl.com
Isaac was completely right on every single point though.
No actually he wasnt.
When carbs are reintroduced yes water weight will return.
The " and more" is false and misinformation.
And given the choice between carbs/ glucose and fat the body prefers and will use glucose/carbs First for energy.
Nice try though
"So your fat stores are used instead of carbs"
If you're in a deficit your fat stores are ALWAYS going to be used, that's kindof the whole point of having a deficit. Isaac corrected that wrong statement. Unless your opinion is that you only use your fat stores if you're in keto, which is wrong.
Going keto in 2 week bursts doesn't make sense which he pointed out because it already takes that long to adapt, and it's only going to make your weight fluctuate wildly as your glycogen stores get emptied and filled up again over and over.
Also there's dozens of people, me including, who will gladly tell you that fat is not filling for everyone.0 -
stevencloser wrote: »Also there's dozens of people, me including, who will gladly tell you that fat is not filling for everyone.
missing the context of the low carb diet presumably.0 -
While I agree that a low carb "temp diet" can be non-productive, I did something similar for the first two weeks of my weight loss. The reason, to "reset" my mind into what I was eating. When one gets as big as I was there are real issues to deal with. My Doctor suggested doing this for the first two weeks. Yeah I was making trips to the bathroom about three times as frequent as I previously did. But after those two weeks I reintroduced carbs back into my diet and my mind and body were now helping me eat less. It most likely was more a state of mind for me, but I did what it was supposed to do. I now am eating normal again but far less quantity and losing weight.
Tracking and measuring ended up being the key, as many here say. I am down 40 pounds in ten weeks (from 490lbs). I can do things I could not do before and am never hungry. What works for one many not work for the next.
Congrats!
My husband and I have been doing lchf for a few weeks now and it's definitely a learning process. I haven't lost or gained, but I also haven't been 100%. However, this is a lifestyle that we are looking forward to fully adopting. Right now we're trying different recipes and tracking everything. We don't beat ourselves up if we eat something non lchf because it's a learning process just like life...and we'll get there when we get there. No one should ever feel criticized about trying something new, not every diet or lifestyle works for everyone. Sometimes you have to try them all before you find the one....its kind of like dating.
So ajmurray1234 you'll find what works best for you...don't worry. The lchf page is super useful and supportive if that's the route you chose to go.
Thank you! I'm submitted my request to join one of the groups.0 -
ajmurray1234 wrote: »Liftng4Lis wrote: »You do realize what will happen once you reintroduce carbs right?
So you've done it before? I haven't so no, I don't know what will happen. I don't even know if this will work.
Cheers
2 weeks? May as well not bother (low carber of many months here).
I think when people say 2 weeks....they mean to do the first phase of an Atkins like plan (20 carbs or less) and then move on to the less strict version of low carb after the 2 weeks are over.
But if it is just a 2 weeks and done, then yes...it would seem pointless. I feel the same way about people who carb cycle which include going in and out of keto....or those who are doing low carb, but can't stick with it...so they are constantly battling to go in and out of ketosis. Low carb works, but only if it works for you and you can stick with it. If not...then find another plan, that's usually my advice.
I think this is where people were misunderstanding me. And I should have been more clear. The two weeks is an induction phase so that my body enters Ketosis - it may even take longer, but we'll see. Then, I will begin the next phase where I add in more net carbs. My theory is to test, test, test. I'll gradually add back the carbs little by little and closely monitor how my body responds.0 -
I tried the Atkins plan for a while and yes, I did loose weight. Actually I lost it pretty fast too. I have tried soooo many of these fad diet plans and the biggest reason they always fail is they are not a "lifestyle". Can you really livethe rest of your life low carb? Well maybe but as I have found and we all will have to, it needs to be something that can be a regular part of our life. If we feel we are restricting things, somewhere in theback of our mind we think we are cheating ourselves.
The best part about the MFP is it is a tool. It is teaching me what the correct potron sizes are and how to best distribute them over my week. Like others have said CICO. This has been the easiest plan I have ever tried and I think the one that has the best chance for sticking long term.
Good luck to you!0 -
stevencloser wrote: »Also there's dozens of people, me including, who will gladly tell you that fat is not filling for everyone.
missing the context of the low carb diet presumably.
Like the context that your body can regulate blodd sugar? Or that we all don't get the same affect/satiety from foods that others do?0 -
I tried the Atkins plan for a while and yes, I did loose weight. Actually I lost it pretty fast too. I have tried soooo many of these fad diet plans and the biggest reason they always fail is they are not a "lifestyle". Can you really livethe rest of your life low carb? Well maybe but as I have found and we all will have to, it needs to be something that can be a regular part of our life. If we feel we are restricting things, somewhere in theback of our mind we think we are cheating ourselves.
The best part about the MFP is it is a tool. It is teaching me what the correct potron sizes are and how to best distribute them over my week. Like others have said CICO. This has been the easiest plan I have ever tried and I think the one that has the best chance for sticking long term.
Good luck to you!
Thank you!0 -
As an FYI, CICO is not a diet, its an energy balance equation. What most people insinuate when they say CICO is flexible dieting or IIFYM. With this diet you set macros based on goals and plan to achieve those specific numbers. In most cases in MFP, the diet is moderate protein (.8 to 1g per lb of lean body mass), .35 to .6g of carbs and the rest carbs. Based on total number of caloriea alloted and satiety requirements, so will lower carbs and increase fats.
0.8 to 1g of protein per lb of anything is not moderate protein, and you mistyped that broscience fat ratio as "carbs".
MFP default is 20% of calories from protein, 30% from fat. http://myfitnesspal.desk.com/customer/portal/articles/1375583-a-message-about-myfitnesspal-s-updated-nutrition-goals
Thanks for letting me no .8 to 1g is high protein. I will take that info forward. I must of been confused by the thousands of people i have helps with percentages ranging from 20 to 30%. I always thought it was isocaloric.
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PrizePopple wrote: »MoiAussi93 wrote: »You don't JUST lose water on low carb diets. You lose just as much fat as you would on any other diet. In fact, people with insulin resistance, PCOS or certain other issues might find it much easier to lose eating low carb. Also, ketogenic diets have an advantage in terms of body composition since they help prevent muscle loss.
But regardless, even if you do eventually reintroduce higher levels of carb...you might gain back the water weight (just a few pounds!!!) but all the fat will NOT come back. Also, the "and some more" in your reply is just plain wrong.
Ah blanket statements about IR and PCOS, which I happen to have (IR because of PCOS) .. I've lost just fine sticking to nothing more than a caloric deficit, thanks. Doing such a diet would be to help balance a MEDICAL condition, in conjunction with medication, to further assist with controlling the condition. It's also usually monitored by a medical professional such as an endocrinologist along the way. It's not the same thing as "I want to go low carb for a few weeks because I think it's going to 'kickstart' my weight loss".
The point is that this person is not as well versed as she would like to think she is, and to jump into a diet that isn't really intended to be a short-term quick fix is fairly irresponsible. One would imagine as a proponent of low carbing you would prefer that people fully understand what they are doing, not flippantly say "I don't know if it's even going to work".
I am quite well versed, thank you. When I say " I'm not sure if its even going to work" , I'm simply being honest. "I...don't...know..., but I am hopeful.
Enjoy your day0 -
stevencloser wrote: »Also there's dozens of people, me including, who will gladly tell you that fat is not filling for everyone.
missing the context of the low carb diet presumably.
Like the context that your body can regulate blodd sugar? Or that we all don't get the same affect/satiety from foods that others do?
still missing the context eh ? Many people and much evidence says LCHF eating is satiating and leads to voluntary low food intake. It's only deniers that bang on about "fat not being satiating to them" - nobody cares, you aren't on the LCHF diet that the claim is made about.
I don't give an expletive about what foods carb addled exercise guys find satiating to them on their high carb excessive protein diets, that's a different context. The title of this thread is a guide to the context of this discussion.0 -
stevencloser wrote: »Also there's dozens of people, me including, who will gladly tell you that fat is not filling for everyone.
missing the context of the low carb diet presumably.
Like the context that your body can regulate blodd sugar? Or that we all don't get the same affect/satiety from foods that others do?
still missing the context eh ? Many people and much evidence says LCHF eating is satiating and leads to voluntary low food intake. It's only deniers that bang on about "fat not being satiating to them" - nobody cares, you aren't on the LCHF diet that the claim is made about.
I don't give an expletive about what foods carb addled exercise guys find satiating to them on their high carb excessive protein diets, that's a different context. The title of this thread is a guide to the context of this discussion.
I am not missing context. I am letting others know my experience to allow others know there are a variety of effects of food. I know that goes against your low carb agenda, which i am sorry it makes you mad, but not everyone responds the same. Yes, a lot of people find lchf a good solution but just like every diet, it has a high failure rate.
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stevencloser wrote: »Also there's dozens of people, me including, who will gladly tell you that fat is not filling for everyone.
missing the context of the low carb diet presumably.
The post said "fat and protein are much more filling".
Not "a low carb diet is filling". Who's missing what context now?0 -
stevencloser wrote: »Also there's dozens of people, me including, who will gladly tell you that fat is not filling for everyone.
missing the context of the low carb diet presumably.
Like the context that your body can regulate blodd sugar? Or that we all don't get the same affect/satiety from foods that others do?
still missing the context eh ? Many people and much evidence says LCHF eating is satiating and leads to voluntary low food intake. It's only deniers that bang on about "fat not being satiating to them" - nobody cares, you aren't on the LCHF diet that the claim is made about.
I don't give an expletive about what foods carb addled exercise guys find satiating to them on their high carb excessive protein diets, that's a different context. The title of this thread is a guide to the context of this discussion.
I am not missing context. I am letting others know my experience to allow others know there are a variety of effects of food. I know that goes against your low carb agenda, which i am sorry it makes you mad, but not everyone responds the same. Yes, a lot of people find lchf a good solution but just like every diet, it has a high failure rate.
I don't believe that is always needed though. It would be like me posting about my LCHF, largely carnivorous diet option on the vegetarian or vegan posts, so that people can be more educated in my way of doing things. I highly doubt they need or want that. Same goes for many LCHF threads.
JMO0 -
stevencloser wrote: »Also there's dozens of people, me including, who will gladly tell you that fat is not filling for everyone.
missing the context of the low carb diet presumably.
Like the context that your body can regulate blodd sugar? Or that we all don't get the same affect/satiety from foods that others do?
still missing the context eh ? Many people and much evidence says LCHF eating is satiating and leads to voluntary low food intake. It's only deniers that bang on about "fat not being satiating to them" - nobody cares, you aren't on the LCHF diet that the claim is made about.
I don't give an expletive about what foods carb addled exercise guys find satiating to them on their high carb excessive protein diets, that's a different context. The title of this thread is a guide to the context of this discussion.
There is a distinction between claiming that ketosis tends to reduce hunger levels, which is likely true on average,* and claiming that increasing fat or eating fat is satiating, which in fact the studies don't seem to back up. People vary in how they react to different foods (even if some low carbers don't like to hear that), but on average protein is most filling, followed by carbs, followed by fat. Some people, even outside of a low carb diet, seem to find higher fat foods more filling, but many do not. Lots of people seem to find more volume or more fiber filling (which often goes along with more carbs -- and also shows that equating all carbs makes no sense, as foods are different between their macros).
To suggest that only a "carb addled" person would not find high fat satiating shows you are missing the point, and it's pretty ridiculous and not helpful to a discussion to suggest that anyone who eats a non-low-carb diet is "carb addled," whatever that is supposed to mean. People wonder why some of us debate low carb claims, and it's stuff like this, where there seems to be an effort to insist that low carb is always better and there's something wrong or unhealthy about a non low carb diet. (Or, as in OP's first post and why she got some of the commentary, that you can't lose fat without doing low carb.)
*Even this does not appear to be as universal or to have as dramatic effect as you claim, and it is reasonably irrelevant to people who don't struggle with excessive hunger when eating a reasonable, balanced diet. The kinds of high sugar spike to crash that you (without basis) imagined that psulemon was talking about, for example, will typically only happen if someone has a real problem with blood sugar/IR already OR if they are eating a pretty silly diet with lots of low fiber/highly processed carb-based foods on their own.0 -
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