800-pound-man-kicked-out-of-hospital-for-ordering-pizza
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"mccindy72 wrote: »As compassionate people, we should all be able to find it in ourselves to see the humanity in all people and never forget about that - despite any medical/mental issues they may have. There but for the grace of God go I.
Yes. Very much so.
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vivmom2014 wrote: »"mccindy72 wrote: »As compassionate people, we should all be able to find it in ourselves to see the humanity in all people and never forget about that - despite any medical/mental issues they may have. There but for the grace of God go I.
Yes. Very much so.
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I've spent my entire professional life as a licensed mental health practitioner working with individuals and populations generally assessed as being "high risk" for any number of reasons. I don't have any illusions left about the challenges people face, the balance between personal and social responsibility, or how much of a miracle it really is when someone is able to get free of their particular version of hell.
I had hoped that the example of this young man might spark some useful discussion around just how complex and heartbreaking it can be (for everyone - the individual suffering, family members, the care team) to deal with extreme obesity.
Instead, I'm just appalled at some of the talk here about how to tell whether someone is a "DB" as opposed to "really" having a mental disorder, implications that those with mental disorders must be having just a great time thanks to their "freedom" to "do/eat what they want" (REALLY?). And I'm seeing posts from others who apparently have some personal history working with the severely mentally ill who are telling stories designed to shock or entertain about their former clients, labeling people as their illness, and generalizing about people with mental disorders in ways that I find very questionable and offensive on a professional level.
Whether his illness led him to set himself up like this or not, there's no reason to treat this man and his family - or anyone with a mental disorder - like a freak show. I'm just so damned disappointed in a lot of what I am seeing here. People on these boards can do better than that.
Well said, and fully agreed.0 -
Although I'm behind the times on my terminology, I didn't mean any offense, much as I'm sure you didn't mean any offense when you described people as ill.nutmegoreo wrote: »
You can't understand most of the behavior you encounter. It defies logic. It's insane.nutmegoreo wrote: »
It's not really a punishment. There are many people there, all of whom have issues. If you allow someone who is horribly stinky out with others, there will be comments and it's very likely that a fight will break out. It's disruptive and dangerous.nutmegoreo wrote: »Refusing to bathe is not an uncommon tactic amongst the mentally ill who are able to interact with others. It's a stupid, manipulative game they play, much like a child who holds their breath. "I'm going to make you wash me" is the slang we used, as in, "Mr. Smith is playing 'I'm going to make you wash me' and may not have ice cream after dinner."
Much like children, if they're refused dessert for a couple meals, many will bathe. The ones who that doesn't work on are confined to their room until they bathe.
Old story.
This is really not sitting well with me, so I am asking for clarification.
Are you saying that confining people with mental health issues to their room (how is this enforced?) is an appropriate 'punishment' for them using the 'manipulation technique' of not bathing? Punishment here is placed in quotes for the fact that this, in my mind, is abusive. Manipulation technique is in quotes because for people with severe depression, basic daily activities are incredibly difficult to perform. Even with mild depression, a person's willingness to partake in self-care can be diminished.
Maybe it's the way I'm reading it, but your post is really sad and sounds horrifying.
Everyone has to bathe. Daily would be ideal, but at least every two or three days. If they refuse to bathe, they cannot be out and upsetting everyone else.
Everyone has to wear some kind of clothing. Nakedness will also mean you're confined to your room. That, too, upsets others. The accidentally naked will be reminded to dress or assisted with dressing. The manipulative, "I'm not wearing clothes and everyone can deal with it," will mean you need to stay in your room until you put on some type of clothing.
These are really the only two things required. You must bathe and you must wear some kind of clothing.
Some people are too far gone to bathe and are helped or relieved of the burden, but the manipulative, "You have to wash me" is just not complied with. When you begin bathing people who can bathe themselves because that's what they've insisted upon, you literally have the inmates running the asylum. Again, this is something that has to be assessed on a case-by-case basis.
If that young man was well enough to dust and vacuum, he was well enough to attempt to bathe himself. I don't know why he refused or if he was playing the manipulative "I'm going to make you wash me" game or not, but it happens and it happens all the time.
A person in the midst of a major depressive episode - I've never seen one do that. That would not be common. They always bathe. Usually, every day, with encouragement, but for sure every day or two. They're not out to force anyone to wash them. It's just not part of their deal.
It isn't common amongst the depressed (like I said, I've never seen it at all), but the game itself is played out every day. It's very frustrating for family members attempting to help these people at home. Those family members are encouraged to cease assistance until the person bathes. Some can, some cannot.
Thank you for clarifying. I was probably reading more into your previous post. I can see that if you have a group of people with poor impulse control and a tendency toward violence, that it is important to reduce noxious stimuli. I don't know if this is the case in the scenario you are talking about, but it sounds like it. I still do not support confining them to their room, but I am at a loss for suggestions in this situation.
In my experience, bathing someone who is capable of doing it themselves can promote a learned helplessness, which is why we teach nursing students (and family members) that they are not to do for patients what they can do for themselves. Of course this isn't applicable in all cases and doesn't work in all situations.
How much of this is a need to control their environment, or trying to obtain the human contact that would occur when someone is bathing another person? The stigma of mental illness can be socially isolating, and thereby reducing the likelihood of physical contact with others. I am not excusing the behavior, simply trying to understand it.
As for the man in the OP, I didn't get the sense that he was expecting someone else to wash him, just that he was refusing to do it himself. This could be used to further isolate himself from others, giving a false sense of control. There is also a codependency/enabler issue which seems to apply in this case (his father), but that is just conjecture on my part since I know nothing beyond what has been publicized.
Rapists are very big on "I'm going to make you wash me" and the reasons there are obvious. They like power and they enjoy making people do what they want. Some people are just trying to be manipulative. It's part of their personality - it's what they do. They're mentally ill. There is no reasonable explanation.
Paranoids (as opposed to "paranoid schizophrenic") won't want to shower because maybe the shower will kill them or because they're just generally distrustful of anything anyone suggests. They're angry and on edge and scared. That makes sense. The meds kick in, they shower.
Schizophrenics coming off a break may not be able to agree or will agree and forget. You don't know what they're thinking, but often, it bears no resemblance to logic. Just neurons firing away in wacky ways. No sense there. When the meds kick in, more sense will return. Until then, there is no understanding.
The depressed agree to it because in the midst of a major depressive episode, people will almost always agree to anything, lol. They don't have the energy to refuse and don't really care, either way. It's the follow-through. Getting up, going to the shower - that's the hard part for them.
People who have had some traumatic event and cannot focus their eyes or hear - they're not even refusing, they just cannot bathe themselves.
People like chicken woman need help. They need to be guided in and washed. They aren't refusing or forgetting, they just aren't part of our world, but are living entirely in their own. There is nothing to understand. She's a chicken. Chickens can't be told to shower. That's the best way to think of it.
If you try to understand it, sometimes you'll be able to, but other times, you'll go mad, yourself, trying.
"I don't want to kill people. If it was up to me, I'd just beat them up. But the voices!" You can understand that.
"Bawk! Baaawwwk! Bawk! Bawk!" You're never going to understand that. There is nothing to understand. Something has gone wrong in that person's brain. Nobody knows what it is. It just is.
We know so little about the brain. There was a huge discovery a couple years ago, but what we learned from it is that there is tons and tons that we cannot figure out. So, now we know that we have a lower % of understanding than we thought we did.
But hopefully, one day, everyone can be helped. Until then, we just have to let them bawk, keep them safe, warm, dry and fed.
This is all very interesting, but has little to do with why the man in the OP was not cleaning himself. When he clearly had the ability (at least at the time of his appearance on the Dr. Phil show). You are comparing apples to oranges in this situation and taking more extreme circumstances and using that experience to apply it in a situation where the person in question has much more capacity for decision making than what you are describing above.
In all of the situations you describe (with the exception of the rapists), refusal to shower is not a manipulation technique, but rather a lack of comprehension of the need for bathing or an intense aversion for it. I can assure you that if I thought I would be showering in something that would kill me, I would not be climbing in there. It's the same reason there is little recourse when I get punched in the mouth by someone who thinks I am trying to kill him with the Heparin injection I am trying to give. Capacity for decision making.
At the end of the day, the reason I was reading so much into your post was simply because you were talking about the treatment of people who lack the capacity to make decisions or to recognize actions and consequences, which has nothing to do with this thread. I do appreciate your clarifications of my questions and concerns.
We don't know why that guy wouldn't bathe. Maybe there is a reason we'd understand and maybe he's just playing a manipulative game for no good reason because that's part of his mental illness and just what he does.
He may be well enough to chose to play games, but be sick enough to do it for no good reason. That happens.
You cannot always understand why these people do the things they do and you sure can't tell by watching Dr. Phil.
Sometimes, there is no explanation. If their brains made sense, it wouldn't be an illness.
Again, "these people" and "their brains."
Please watch your choice of words when referring to individuals with mental illness and not grouping individuals who may have similar symptoms or illnesses.
We aren't supposed to describe people as mentally healthy or mentally ill any longer. No mental illness. That's offensive, too.
Welcome to the world of being offensive without meaning to offend.
If you'd like to know what you should say so that you can stop being so darned offensive, it is "wellness." Nobody is ill. Everyone is well. There are different levels of wellness.
I guess it makes sense and is nice, but I just got used to saying "mental health" and "mentally ill" instead of Psych. It's just a problem in that when you say, "Wellness Center," many people don't know, yet, what you mean. If you say "Psych" or "mental health," they understand.
I will take a while to get with the program, I'm sure. It always does. I'll catch up eventually.
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Although I'm behind the times on my terminology, I didn't mean any offense, much as I'm sure you didn't mean any offense when you described people as ill.nutmegoreo wrote: »
You can't understand most of the behavior you encounter. It defies logic. It's insane.nutmegoreo wrote: »
It's not really a punishment. There are many people there, all of whom have issues. If you allow someone who is horribly stinky out with others, there will be comments and it's very likely that a fight will break out. It's disruptive and dangerous.nutmegoreo wrote: »Refusing to bathe is not an uncommon tactic amongst the mentally ill who are able to interact with others. It's a stupid, manipulative game they play, much like a child who holds their breath. "I'm going to make you wash me" is the slang we used, as in, "Mr. Smith is playing 'I'm going to make you wash me' and may not have ice cream after dinner."
Much like children, if they're refused dessert for a couple meals, many will bathe. The ones who that doesn't work on are confined to their room until they bathe.
Old story.
This is really not sitting well with me, so I am asking for clarification.
Are you saying that confining people with mental health issues to their room (how is this enforced?) is an appropriate 'punishment' for them using the 'manipulation technique' of not bathing? Punishment here is placed in quotes for the fact that this, in my mind, is abusive. Manipulation technique is in quotes because for people with severe depression, basic daily activities are incredibly difficult to perform. Even with mild depression, a person's willingness to partake in self-care can be diminished.
Maybe it's the way I'm reading it, but your post is really sad and sounds horrifying.
Everyone has to bathe. Daily would be ideal, but at least every two or three days. If they refuse to bathe, they cannot be out and upsetting everyone else.
Everyone has to wear some kind of clothing. Nakedness will also mean you're confined to your room. That, too, upsets others. The accidentally naked will be reminded to dress or assisted with dressing. The manipulative, "I'm not wearing clothes and everyone can deal with it," will mean you need to stay in your room until you put on some type of clothing.
These are really the only two things required. You must bathe and you must wear some kind of clothing.
Some people are too far gone to bathe and are helped or relieved of the burden, but the manipulative, "You have to wash me" is just not complied with. When you begin bathing people who can bathe themselves because that's what they've insisted upon, you literally have the inmates running the asylum. Again, this is something that has to be assessed on a case-by-case basis.
If that young man was well enough to dust and vacuum, he was well enough to attempt to bathe himself. I don't know why he refused or if he was playing the manipulative "I'm going to make you wash me" game or not, but it happens and it happens all the time.
A person in the midst of a major depressive episode - I've never seen one do that. That would not be common. They always bathe. Usually, every day, with encouragement, but for sure every day or two. They're not out to force anyone to wash them. It's just not part of their deal.
It isn't common amongst the depressed (like I said, I've never seen it at all), but the game itself is played out every day. It's very frustrating for family members attempting to help these people at home. Those family members are encouraged to cease assistance until the person bathes. Some can, some cannot.
Thank you for clarifying. I was probably reading more into your previous post. I can see that if you have a group of people with poor impulse control and a tendency toward violence, that it is important to reduce noxious stimuli. I don't know if this is the case in the scenario you are talking about, but it sounds like it. I still do not support confining them to their room, but I am at a loss for suggestions in this situation.
In my experience, bathing someone who is capable of doing it themselves can promote a learned helplessness, which is why we teach nursing students (and family members) that they are not to do for patients what they can do for themselves. Of course this isn't applicable in all cases and doesn't work in all situations.
How much of this is a need to control their environment, or trying to obtain the human contact that would occur when someone is bathing another person? The stigma of mental illness can be socially isolating, and thereby reducing the likelihood of physical contact with others. I am not excusing the behavior, simply trying to understand it.
As for the man in the OP, I didn't get the sense that he was expecting someone else to wash him, just that he was refusing to do it himself. This could be used to further isolate himself from others, giving a false sense of control. There is also a codependency/enabler issue which seems to apply in this case (his father), but that is just conjecture on my part since I know nothing beyond what has been publicized.
Rapists are very big on "I'm going to make you wash me" and the reasons there are obvious. They like power and they enjoy making people do what they want. Some people are just trying to be manipulative. It's part of their personality - it's what they do. They're mentally ill. There is no reasonable explanation.
Paranoids (as opposed to "paranoid schizophrenic") won't want to shower because maybe the shower will kill them or because they're just generally distrustful of anything anyone suggests. They're angry and on edge and scared. That makes sense. The meds kick in, they shower.
Schizophrenics coming off a break may not be able to agree or will agree and forget. You don't know what they're thinking, but often, it bears no resemblance to logic. Just neurons firing away in wacky ways. No sense there. When the meds kick in, more sense will return. Until then, there is no understanding.
The depressed agree to it because in the midst of a major depressive episode, people will almost always agree to anything, lol. They don't have the energy to refuse and don't really care, either way. It's the follow-through. Getting up, going to the shower - that's the hard part for them.
People who have had some traumatic event and cannot focus their eyes or hear - they're not even refusing, they just cannot bathe themselves.
People like chicken woman need help. They need to be guided in and washed. They aren't refusing or forgetting, they just aren't part of our world, but are living entirely in their own. There is nothing to understand. She's a chicken. Chickens can't be told to shower. That's the best way to think of it.
If you try to understand it, sometimes you'll be able to, but other times, you'll go mad, yourself, trying.
"I don't want to kill people. If it was up to me, I'd just beat them up. But the voices!" You can understand that.
"Bawk! Baaawwwk! Bawk! Bawk!" You're never going to understand that. There is nothing to understand. Something has gone wrong in that person's brain. Nobody knows what it is. It just is.
We know so little about the brain. There was a huge discovery a couple years ago, but what we learned from it is that there is tons and tons that we cannot figure out. So, now we know that we have a lower % of understanding than we thought we did.
But hopefully, one day, everyone can be helped. Until then, we just have to let them bawk, keep them safe, warm, dry and fed.
This is all very interesting, but has little to do with why the man in the OP was not cleaning himself. When he clearly had the ability (at least at the time of his appearance on the Dr. Phil show). You are comparing apples to oranges in this situation and taking more extreme circumstances and using that experience to apply it in a situation where the person in question has much more capacity for decision making than what you are describing above.
In all of the situations you describe (with the exception of the rapists), refusal to shower is not a manipulation technique, but rather a lack of comprehension of the need for bathing or an intense aversion for it. I can assure you that if I thought I would be showering in something that would kill me, I would not be climbing in there. It's the same reason there is little recourse when I get punched in the mouth by someone who thinks I am trying to kill him with the Heparin injection I am trying to give. Capacity for decision making.
At the end of the day, the reason I was reading so much into your post was simply because you were talking about the treatment of people who lack the capacity to make decisions or to recognize actions and consequences, which has nothing to do with this thread. I do appreciate your clarifications of my questions and concerns.
We don't know why that guy wouldn't bathe. Maybe there is a reason we'd understand and maybe he's just playing a manipulative game for no good reason because that's part of his mental illness and just what he does.
He may be well enough to chose to play games, but be sick enough to do it for no good reason. That happens.
You cannot always understand why these people do the things they do and you sure can't tell by watching Dr. Phil.
Sometimes, there is no explanation. If their brains made sense, it wouldn't be an illness.
Again, "these people" and "their brains."
Please watch your choice of words when referring to individuals with mental illness and not grouping individuals who may have similar symptoms or illnesses.
We aren't supposed to describe people as mentally healthy or mentally ill any longer. No mental illness. That's offensive, too.
Welcome to the world of being offensive without meaning to offend.
If you'd like to know what you should say so that you can stop being so darned offensive, it is "wellness." Nobody is ill. Everyone is well. There are different levels of wellness.
I guess it makes sense and is nice, but I just got used to saying "mental health" and "mentally ill" instead of Psych. It's just a problem in that when you say, "Wellness Center," many people don't know, yet, what you mean. If you say "Psych" or "mental health," they understand.
I will take a while to get with the program, I'm sure. It always does. I'll catch up eventually.
The difference between what I said "people with mental illness" and what you said "depresseds," "paranoids," etc. is that I am not defining a person by their illness. The way you referred to people is not a matter of catching up, as it has not been acceptable for decades to refer to people that way.0 -
I'd like to clarify that I wasn't trying to shock anyone. Had I been trying, I could've done better.I've spent my entire professional life as a licensed mental health practitioner working with individuals and populations generally assessed as being "high risk" for any number of reasons. I don't have any illusions left about the challenges people face, the balance between personal and social responsibility, or how much of a miracle it really is when someone is able to get free of their particular version of hell.
I had hoped that the example of this young man might spark some useful discussion around just how complex and heartbreaking it can be (for everyone - the individual suffering, family members, the care team) to deal with extreme obesity.
Instead, I'm just appalled at some of the talk here about how to tell whether someone is a "DB" as opposed to "really" having a mental disorder, implications that those with mental disorders must be having just a great time thanks to their "freedom" to "do/eat what they want" (REALLY?). And I'm seeing posts from others who apparently have some personal history working with the severely mentally ill who are telling stories designed to shock or entertain about their former clients, labeling people as their illness, and generalizing about people with mental disorders in ways that I find very questionable and offensive on a professional level.
Whether his illness led him to set himself up like this or not, there's no reason to treat this man and his family - or anyone with a mental disorder - like a freak show. I'm just so damned disappointed in a lot of what I am seeing here. People on these boards can do better than that.
I was also not trying to entertain, a la Dr. Phil.
If you are offended, I apologize for having offended you. Be assured it was not my intention.
It's different inside "the center" (which is the proper terminology now) than it is outside. Things are done differently. If things could be handled in the ways you might handle them, the center wouldn't have to be there. I'm sure there have been times where you've had a patient or client who needed more intensive treatment than you could provide. That's why those centers exist. Different ways of doing things.
While you encourage people to use the proper terms (which we totally should), remember that most of us are simply behind the times and mean no harm.0 -
Well, since this is the final day of Mental Health Awareness Week 2015, here are a few links for everyone. As well as this year's hashtag: #IAmStigmaFree (See the person, not the illness.) Last year's was #EveryMindMatters. Still true.
http://www.nami.org/[\url]
http://mhaweek.org/[\url]
http://everymindmatters.org/
http://www.eachmindmatters.org/
I see the effects every day of people being afraid to seek help, or being too embarrassed to seek help, or there not being enough resources to help those who do reach out. My hope is that things change. Soon.
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I'd like to clarify that I wasn't trying to shock anyone. Had I been trying, I could've done better.I've spent my entire professional life as a licensed mental health practitioner working with individuals and populations generally assessed as being "high risk" for any number of reasons. I don't have any illusions left about the challenges people face, the balance between personal and social responsibility, or how much of a miracle it really is when someone is able to get free of their particular version of hell.
I had hoped that the example of this young man might spark some useful discussion around just how complex and heartbreaking it can be (for everyone - the individual suffering, family members, the care team) to deal with extreme obesity.
Instead, I'm just appalled at some of the talk here about how to tell whether someone is a "DB" as opposed to "really" having a mental disorder, implications that those with mental disorders must be having just a great time thanks to their "freedom" to "do/eat what they want" (REALLY?). And I'm seeing posts from others who apparently have some personal history working with the severely mentally ill who are telling stories designed to shock or entertain about their former clients, labeling people as their illness, and generalizing about people with mental disorders in ways that I find very questionable and offensive on a professional level.
Whether his illness led him to set himself up like this or not, there's no reason to treat this man and his family - or anyone with a mental disorder - like a freak show. I'm just so damned disappointed in a lot of what I am seeing here. People on these boards can do better than that.
I was also not trying to entertain, a la Dr. Phil.
If you are offended, I apologize for having offended you. Be assured it was not my intention.
It's different inside "the center" (which is the proper terminology now) than it is outside. Things are done differently. If things could be handled in the ways you might handle them, the center wouldn't have to be there. I'm sure there have been times where you've had a patient or client who needed more intensive treatment than you could provide. That's why those centers exist. Different ways of doing things.
While you encourage people to use the proper terms (which we totally should), remember that most of us are simply behind the times and mean no harm.
I'm sure that HIPAA applies there. And annual training in sensitivity. People who work in the medical field must at all times see their patients as people and never, ever forget that. Using things like 'being behind the times' cannot be an excuse, ever, when the care of people is involved.0 -
Quoting fail0
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I'd like to clarify that I wasn't trying to shock anyone. Had I been trying, I could've done better.I've spent my entire professional life as a licensed mental health practitioner working with individuals and populations generally assessed as being "high risk" for any number of reasons. I don't have any illusions left about the challenges people face, the balance between personal and social responsibility, or how much of a miracle it really is when someone is able to get free of their particular version of hell.
I had hoped that the example of this young man might spark some useful discussion around just how complex and heartbreaking it can be (for everyone - the individual suffering, family members, the care team) to deal with extreme obesity.
Instead, I'm just appalled at some of the talk here about how to tell whether someone is a "DB" as opposed to "really" having a mental disorder, implications that those with mental disorders must be having just a great time thanks to their "freedom" to "do/eat what they want" (REALLY?). And I'm seeing posts from others who apparently have some personal history working with the severely mentally ill who are telling stories designed to shock or entertain about their former clients, labeling people as their illness, and generalizing about people with mental disorders in ways that I find very questionable and offensive on a professional level.
Whether his illness led him to set himself up like this or not, there's no reason to treat this man and his family - or anyone with a mental disorder - like a freak show. I'm just so damned disappointed in a lot of what I am seeing here. People on these boards can do better than that.
I was also not trying to entertain, a la Dr. Phil.
If you are offended, I apologize for having offended you. Be assured it was not my intention.
It's different inside "the center" (which is the proper terminology now) than it is outside. Things are done differently. If things could be handled in the ways you might handle them, the center wouldn't have to be there. I'm sure there have been times where you've had a patient or client who needed more intensive treatment than you could provide. That's why those centers exist. Different ways of doing things.
While you encourage people to use the proper terms (which we totally should), remember that most of us are simply behind the times and mean no harm.
I'm sure that HIPAA applies there. And annual training in sensitivity. People who work in the medical field must at all times see their patients as people and never, ever forget that. Using things like 'being behind the times' cannot be an excuse, ever, when the care of people is involved.
+10 -
Well, since this is the final day of Mental Health Awareness Week 2015, here are a few links for everyone. As well as this year's hashtag: #IAmStigmaFree (See the person, not the illness.) Last year's was #EveryMindMatters. Still true.
http://www.nami.org/[\url]
http://mhaweek.org/[\url]
http://everymindmatters.org/
http://www.eachmindmatters.org/
I see the effects every day of people being afraid to seek help, or being too embarrassed to seek help, or there not being enough resources to help those who do reach out. My hope is that things change. Soon.
Great links. In the facility that I work it has always been taught in our sensitive training to see the person as a whole, not just their illness.
I couldn't imagine going to someone for help and all they can see and refer to me as is my illness. That must be devastating to that person.0 -
I'd like to clarify that I wasn't trying to shock anyone. Had I been trying, I could've done better.I've spent my entire professional life as a licensed mental health practitioner working with individuals and populations generally assessed as being "high risk" for any number of reasons. I don't have any illusions left about the challenges people face, the balance between personal and social responsibility, or how much of a miracle it really is when someone is able to get free of their particular version of hell.
I had hoped that the example of this young man might spark some useful discussion around just how complex and heartbreaking it can be (for everyone - the individual suffering, family members, the care team) to deal with extreme obesity.
Instead, I'm just appalled at some of the talk here about how to tell whether someone is a "DB" as opposed to "really" having a mental disorder, implications that those with mental disorders must be having just a great time thanks to their "freedom" to "do/eat what they want" (REALLY?). And I'm seeing posts from others who apparently have some personal history working with the severely mentally ill who are telling stories designed to shock or entertain about their former clients, labeling people as their illness, and generalizing about people with mental disorders in ways that I find very questionable and offensive on a professional level.
Whether his illness led him to set himself up like this or not, there's no reason to treat this man and his family - or anyone with a mental disorder - like a freak show. I'm just so damned disappointed in a lot of what I am seeing here. People on these boards can do better than that.
I was also not trying to entertain, a la Dr. Phil.
If you are offended, I apologize for having offended you. Be assured it was not my intention.
It's different inside "the center" (which is the proper terminology now) than it is outside. Things are done differently. If things could be handled in the ways you might handle them, the center wouldn't have to be there. I'm sure there have been times where you've had a patient or client who needed more intensive treatment than you could provide. That's why those centers exist. Different ways of doing things.
While you encourage people to use the proper terms (which we totally should), remember that most of us are simply behind the times and mean no harm.
I'm sure that HIPAA applies there. And annual training in sensitivity. People who work in the medical field must at all times see their patients as people and never, ever forget that. Using things like 'being behind the times' cannot be an excuse, ever, when the care of people is involved.
Well said.0 -
I'd like to clarify that I wasn't trying to shock anyone. Had I been trying, I could've done better.I've spent my entire professional life as a licensed mental health practitioner working with individuals and populations generally assessed as being "high risk" for any number of reasons. I don't have any illusions left about the challenges people face, the balance between personal and social responsibility, or how much of a miracle it really is when someone is able to get free of their particular version of hell.
I had hoped that the example of this young man might spark some useful discussion around just how complex and heartbreaking it can be (for everyone - the individual suffering, family members, the care team) to deal with extreme obesity.
Instead, I'm just appalled at some of the talk here about how to tell whether someone is a "DB" as opposed to "really" having a mental disorder, implications that those with mental disorders must be having just a great time thanks to their "freedom" to "do/eat what they want" (REALLY?). And I'm seeing posts from others who apparently have some personal history working with the severely mentally ill who are telling stories designed to shock or entertain about their former clients, labeling people as their illness, and generalizing about people with mental disorders in ways that I find very questionable and offensive on a professional level.
Whether his illness led him to set himself up like this or not, there's no reason to treat this man and his family - or anyone with a mental disorder - like a freak show. I'm just so damned disappointed in a lot of what I am seeing here. People on these boards can do better than that.
I was also not trying to entertain, a la Dr. Phil.
If you are offended, I apologize for having offended you. Be assured it was not my intention.
It's different inside "the center" (which is the proper terminology now) than it is outside. Things are done differently. If things could be handled in the ways you might handle them, the center wouldn't have to be there. I'm sure there have been times where you've had a patient or client who needed more intensive treatment than you could provide. That's why those centers exist. Different ways of doing things.
While you encourage people to use the proper terms (which we totally should), remember that most of us are simply behind the times and mean no harm.
I'm sure that HIPAA applies there. And annual training in sensitivity. People who work in the medical field must at all times see their patients as people and never, ever forget that. Using things like 'being behind the times' cannot be an excuse, ever, when the care of people is involved.
+100
As someone with a diagnosed mental disorder, I find some of the things (mostly by the same individual who is "behind the times" according to her) extraordinarily offensive. I I ever thought my treatment team was speaking about myself or other patients in such a manner, I would very quickly be dropping them and filing a complaint to medical/ethical boards. It is absolutely unacceptable.0 -
Well, since this is the final day of Mental Health Awareness Week 2015, here are a few links for everyone. As well as this year's hashtag: #IAmStigmaFree (See the person, not the illness.) Last year's was #EveryMindMatters. Still true.
http://www.nami.org/[\url]
http://mhaweek.org/[\url]
http://everymindmatters.org/
http://www.eachmindmatters.org/
I see the effects every day of people being afraid to seek help, or being too embarrassed to seek help, or there not being enough resources to help those who do reach out. My hope is that things change. Soon.
Thank you for sharing these. The Every Mind Matters site got me thinking about some of the most heartbreaking stories I have heard over the years. It reminds me of how blessed I am in my own life, and how important compassion and understanding are in reaching out to others.0 -
nutmegoreo wrote: »Well, since this is the final day of Mental Health Awareness Week 2015, here are a few links for everyone. As well as this year's hashtag: #IAmStigmaFree (See the person, not the illness.) Last year's was #EveryMindMatters. Still true.
http://www.nami.org/[\url]
http://mhaweek.org/[\url]
http://everymindmatters.org/
http://www.eachmindmatters.org/
I see the effects every day of people being afraid to seek help, or being too embarrassed to seek help, or there not being enough resources to help those who do reach out. My hope is that things change. Soon.
Thank you for sharing these. The Every Mind Matters site got me thinking about some of the most heartbreaking stories I have heard over the years. It reminds me of how blessed I am in my own life, and how important compassion and understanding are in reaching out to others.
Yes!!0 -
Instead, I'm just appalled at some of the talk here about how to tell whether someone is a "DB" as opposed to "really" having a mental disorder, implications that those with mental disorders must be having just a great time thanks to their "freedom" to "do/eat what they want" (REALLY?).
Try again
My comments were meant to describe what benefits a DB might obtain from such behavior, even though he may not have a mental illness. My repeated question on mental illness is to ask how you can tell that a person has one just by watching videos of them. Hopefully you're a tad less appalled now0 -
This content has been removed.
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Instead, I'm just appalled at some of the talk here about how to tell whether someone is a "DB" as opposed to "really" having a mental disorder, implications that those with mental disorders must be having just a great time thanks to their "freedom" to "do/eat what they want" (REALLY?).
Try again
My comments were meant to describe what benefits a DB might obtain from such behavior, even though he may not have a mental illness. My repeated question on mental illness is to ask how you can tell that a person has one just by watching videos of them. Hopefully you're a tad less appalled now
'Try again'? Perhaps you'd do better to reconsider the fact that you're repeatedly using the initials DB (shortening them doesn't hide the fact that you mean *kitten*, which is rude at best, and just blatantly mean at worst). Considering that the discussion is about a person who might be mentally ill, it's incredibly offensive, and appalling, that you still can't figure out that it's just not acceptable to do that. A person who is eating himself into an early grave can't be considered mentally healthy. It's obvious that he has some sort of problem, and acting out is just part of his problem. Compassion should be part of everyone's makeup. Name calling is something that should have been left behind on the childhood playground, and even at that aren't we supposed to be teaching our children that it's part of bullying and should never be done at all?0 -
Instead, I'm just appalled at some of the talk here about how to tell whether someone is a "DB" as opposed to "really" having a mental disorder, implications that those with mental disorders must be having just a great time thanks to their "freedom" to "do/eat what they want" (REALLY?).
Try again
My comments were meant to describe what benefits a DB might obtain from such behavior, even though he may not have a mental illness. My repeated question on mental illness is to ask how you can tell that a person has one just by watching videos of them. Hopefully you're a tad less appalled now
'Try again'? Perhaps you'd do better to reconsider the fact that you're repeatedly using the initials DB (shortening them doesn't hide the fact that you mean *kitten*, which is rude at best, and just blatantly mean at worst). Considering that the discussion is about a person who might be mentally ill, it's incredibly offensive, and appalling, that you still can't figure out that it's just not acceptable to do that. A person who is eating himself into an early grave can't be considered mentally healthy. It's obvious that he has some sort of problem, and acting out is just part of his problem. Compassion should be part of everyone's makeup. Name calling is something that should have been left behind on the childhood playground, and even at that aren't we supposed to be teaching our children that it's part of bullying and should never be done at all?
I suppose the bolded answers my question. Is that your opinion, or some sort of established, widely known fact? Sources? Don't countless Americans essentially do just that every day? Are they all assumed to be mentally ill, too?
If I didn't call the person who was described as abusive in the post I initially responded to a potential DB, would it make you feel better?
0 -
Instead, I'm just appalled at some of the talk here about how to tell whether someone is a "DB" as opposed to "really" having a mental disorder, implications that those with mental disorders must be having just a great time thanks to their "freedom" to "do/eat what they want" (REALLY?).
Try again
My comments were meant to describe what benefits a DB might obtain from such behavior, even though he may not have a mental illness. My repeated question on mental illness is to ask how you can tell that a person has one just by watching videos of them. Hopefully you're a tad less appalled now
'Try again'? Perhaps you'd do better to reconsider the fact that you're repeatedly using the initials DB (shortening them doesn't hide the fact that you mean *kitten*, which is rude at best, and just blatantly mean at worst). Considering that the discussion is about a person who might be mentally ill, it's incredibly offensive, and appalling, that you still can't figure out that it's just not acceptable to do that. A person who is eating himself into an early grave can't be considered mentally healthy. It's obvious that he has some sort of problem, and acting out is just part of his problem. Compassion should be part of everyone's makeup. Name calling is something that should have been left behind on the childhood playground, and even at that aren't we supposed to be teaching our children that it's part of bullying and should never be done at all?
I suppose the bolded answers my question. Is that your opinion, or some sort of established, widely known fact? Sources? Don't countless Americans essentially do just that every day? Are they all assumed to be mentally ill, too?
If I didn't call the person who was described as abusive in the post I initially responded to a potential DB, would it make you feel better?
BED is an established, widely known fact. And I believe that morbid obesity has been recognized as a disease, so yes, it is more than just my opinion.
And what would make me feel better would be examples of better human behavior in regards to anyone, no matter what their situation. Name calling is never acceptable.0 -
Instead, I'm just appalled at some of the talk here about how to tell whether someone is a "DB" as opposed to "really" having a mental disorder, implications that those with mental disorders must be having just a great time thanks to their "freedom" to "do/eat what they want" (REALLY?).
Try again
My comments were meant to describe what benefits a DB might obtain from such behavior, even though he may not have a mental illness. My repeated question on mental illness is to ask how you can tell that a person has one just by watching videos of them. Hopefully you're a tad less appalled now
'Try again'? Perhaps you'd do better to reconsider the fact that you're repeatedly using the initials DB (shortening them doesn't hide the fact that you mean *kitten*, which is rude at best, and just blatantly mean at worst). Considering that the discussion is about a person who might be mentally ill, it's incredibly offensive, and appalling, that you still can't figure out that it's just not acceptable to do that. A person who is eating himself into an early grave can't be considered mentally healthy. It's obvious that he has some sort of problem, and acting out is just part of his problem. Compassion should be part of everyone's makeup. Name calling is something that should have been left behind on the childhood playground, and even at that aren't we supposed to be teaching our children that it's part of bullying and should never be done at all?
I suppose the bolded answers my question. Is that your opinion, or some sort of established, widely known fact? Sources? Don't countless Americans essentially do just that every day? Are they all assumed to be mentally ill, too?
If I didn't call the person who was described as abusive in the post I initially responded to a potential DB, would it make you feel better?
BED is an established, widely known fact. And I believe that morbid obesity has been recognized as a disease, so yes, it is more than just my opinion.
Basically any morbidly obese person definitely has BED?
0 -
Instead, I'm just appalled at some of the talk here about how to tell whether someone is a "DB" as opposed to "really" having a mental disorder, implications that those with mental disorders must be having just a great time thanks to their "freedom" to "do/eat what they want" (REALLY?).
Try again
My comments were meant to describe what benefits a DB might obtain from such behavior, even though he may not have a mental illness. My repeated question on mental illness is to ask how you can tell that a person has one just by watching videos of them. Hopefully you're a tad less appalled now
'Try again'? Perhaps you'd do better to reconsider the fact that you're repeatedly using the initials DB (shortening them doesn't hide the fact that you mean *kitten*, which is rude at best, and just blatantly mean at worst). Considering that the discussion is about a person who might be mentally ill, it's incredibly offensive, and appalling, that you still can't figure out that it's just not acceptable to do that. A person who is eating himself into an early grave can't be considered mentally healthy. It's obvious that he has some sort of problem, and acting out is just part of his problem. Compassion should be part of everyone's makeup. Name calling is something that should have been left behind on the childhood playground, and even at that aren't we supposed to be teaching our children that it's part of bullying and should never be done at all?
I suppose the bolded answers my question. Is that your opinion, or some sort of established, widely known fact? Sources? Don't countless Americans essentially do just that every day? Are they all assumed to be mentally ill, too?
If I didn't call the person who was described as abusive in the post I initially responded to a potential DB, would it make you feel better?
BED is an established, widely known fact. And I believe that morbid obesity has been recognized as a disease, so yes, it is more than just my opinion.
Basically any morbidly obese person definitely has BED?
I think the argument that someone who has let themselves get to 800+ pounds clearly has something else going on. That just is not normal behavior. Many people reach an established weight based on the number of calories eaten and it becomes maintenance. It is something else entirely to reach 800 pounds.0 -
You have to understand that eating disorders are more then just one's problem with eating too much. More often it also is a mental issue that drives the obesity. I know first hand. I was 540 and depression is my challenge. I ate to feel better. I knew what I was doing was destructive but the mind and its flaws do strange things to people.
So don't judge based upon your own perceptions. Everyone is different and reacts differently to life's situations.
Oh yeah, nobody "enabled" me. I destructed all on my own. Yes there could have been an enabler for this person but we don't know the full story behind his issues.
Very well put0 -
Instead, I'm just appalled at some of the talk here about how to tell whether someone is a "DB" as opposed to "really" having a mental disorder, implications that those with mental disorders must be having just a great time thanks to their "freedom" to "do/eat what they want" (REALLY?).
Try again
My comments were meant to describe what benefits a DB might obtain from such behavior, even though he may not have a mental illness. My repeated question on mental illness is to ask how you can tell that a person has one just by watching videos of them. Hopefully you're a tad less appalled now
'Try again'? Perhaps you'd do better to reconsider the fact that you're repeatedly using the initials DB (shortening them doesn't hide the fact that you mean *kitten*, which is rude at best, and just blatantly mean at worst). Considering that the discussion is about a person who might be mentally ill, it's incredibly offensive, and appalling, that you still can't figure out that it's just not acceptable to do that. A person who is eating himself into an early grave can't be considered mentally healthy. It's obvious that he has some sort of problem, and acting out is just part of his problem. Compassion should be part of everyone's makeup. Name calling is something that should have been left behind on the childhood playground, and even at that aren't we supposed to be teaching our children that it's part of bullying and should never be done at all?
I suppose the bolded answers my question. Is that your opinion, or some sort of established, widely known fact? Sources? Don't countless Americans essentially do just that every day? Are they all assumed to be mentally ill, too?
If I didn't call the person who was described as abusive in the post I initially responded to a potential DB, would it make you feel better?
BED is an established, widely known fact. And I believe that morbid obesity has been recognized as a disease, so yes, it is more than just my opinion.
Basically any morbidly obese person definitely has BED?
I think the argument that someone who has let themselves get to 800+ pounds clearly has something else going on. That just is not normal behavior. Many people reach an established weight based on the number of calories eaten and it becomes maintenance. It is something else entirely to reach 800 pounds.
Interesting. The way I see it, we all have something going on. I just wonder at what point do we ignore all prior transgressions and only see this poor morbidly obese guy who now needs to be pitied and helped. Isn't getting huge what happens when you eat too many calories on a prolonged basis? Isn't ruining your life what happens when you abuse and ignore those that try to guide you in the right direction? At what point does the flip happen when it's no longer something that's your doing / in your control and you're living the consequences of your daily choices and actions? At what stage does one get absolved of accountability and personal responsibility?
At this point we're probably just going around in circles. I suppose I understand the popular opinion that just by being XXX lbs overweight, it automatically means one has one or several mental illnesses. I'm actually doing some light reading on the subject matter - anyone that has any sources or other background on the subject, please feel free to share
Finally, I wonder how many participating in this discussion have actually watched videos of this man
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http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.2047-6310.2013.00196.x/abstractIn addition to other social and emotional risks, exposure to sexual and physical abuse during childhood may increase risk of severe obesity later in life. Consideration of the confluence of childhood abuse might be considered as part of preventive and therapeutic approaches to address severe obesity.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022347613000036Among youth with significant psychiatric illness, a history of sexual abuse increases the risk of being overweight or obese, an association that warrants further study regarding the temporal relationship between sexual abuse and obesity and may inform future obesity prevention and intervention programs in children.
There is some evidence that abuse might play a role.0 -
I've spent my entire professional life as a licensed mental health practitioner working with individuals and populations generally assessed as being "high risk" for any number of reasons. I don't have any illusions left about the challenges people face, the balance between personal and social responsibility, or how much of a miracle it really is when someone is able to get free of their particular version of hell.
I had hoped that the example of this young man might spark some useful discussion around just how complex and heartbreaking it can be (for everyone - the individual suffering, family members, the care team) to deal with extreme obesity.
Instead, I'm just appalled at some of the talk here about how to tell whether someone is a "DB" as opposed to "really" having a mental disorder, implications that those with mental disorders must be having just a great time thanks to their "freedom" to "do/eat what they want" (REALLY?). And I'm seeing posts from others who apparently have some personal history working with the severely mentally ill who are telling stories designed to shock or entertain about their former clients, labeling people as their illness, and generalizing about people with mental disorders in ways that I find very questionable and offensive on a professional level.
Whether his illness led him to set himself up like this or not, there's no reason to treat this man and his family - or anyone with a mental disorder - like a freak show. I'm just so damned disappointed in a lot of what I am seeing here. People on these boards can do better than that.
Actually in this case, it is the father who has turned his son's condition into a freak show. I have spent days crying, having panic attacks, receiving death threats, talking to drs, involving even the police at some point, to help a close relative who was a danger to himself and others. At no point did it cross my mind to involve the media. I am sure that, like in most mental illnesses, incidents from my relative's life would have made a very "entertaining" story and he too could become as "famous" as this man. Why the father chose to seek this type of attention is beyond me, but I seriously doubt the 800 lbs man is the only one with serious issues in the family.
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This content has been removed.
This discussion has been closed.
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