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Low carb... Is it a diet fad?
Replies
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Wheelhouse15 wrote: »Wheelhouse15 wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Christine_72 wrote: »I don't know anyone who eats a stick of butter... My max is 15grams
I remember a thread where someone said they did this and one other person said they do too.
I remember a thread where someone said they take 5 tablespoons of coconut oil in their morning coffee.
I remember a thread where someone said they ate more than half their diet in a macro that isn't even required nutritionally.
oh. I forget. Nevermind that.
If you function on a glucose fuel diet, you get your energy from carb calories. If you function on a fat fuel diet you get your energy from fat calories.
You seem to be implying coconut oil is not valid food and eating it is mock-worthy? I thought the official line is 'no bad foods'?
And it's not necessary to eat five times your fat minimum either but you always goes over that be too....
Hmm. There is is no minimum for carbohydrate consumption so that would put it at zero. If one is eating 40-50% of their calories in carbs... Well, that's more than five times over the minimum. Not necessary I guess?
Hmm.
There's maximum recommendations for protein and fat, I wonder what the rest of your calorie intake should consist of if you put them both at maximum and it's less than 100%.
That is not a requirement but just a recommendation by organizations whose guidelines don't work well for me (like ADA, Mayo, and AHA). I think their advice is quite outdated, along with advice to use egg substitutes instead of eggs, using low fat dairy, and substituting vegetable oils for saturated fats in cooking.
I honestly can't find any studies stating what a humans maximum fat intake should be. My guess is that it won't go higher than 90% but just because one would start to be lacking in protein.
If you have a study with the science that discovered the maximum fat intake for people, I would like to see it. It would be quite relevent to my diet.lemurcat12 wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Christine_72 wrote: »I don't know anyone who eats a stick of butter... My max is 15grams
I remember a thread where someone said they did this and one other person said they do too.
I remember a thread where someone said they take 5 tablespoons of coconut oil in their morning coffee.
I remember a thread where someone said they ate more than half their diet in a macro that isn't even required nutritionally.
oh. I forget. Nevermind that.
If you function on a glucose fuel diet, you get your energy from carb calories. If you function on a fat fuel diet you get your energy from fat calories.
You seem to be implying coconut oil is not valid food and eating it is mock-worthy? I thought the official line is 'no bad foods'?
And it's not necessary to eat five times your fat minimum either but you always goes over that be too....
Hmm. There is is no minimum for carbohydrate consumption so that would put it at zero. If one is eating 40-50% of their calories in carbs... Well, that's more than five times over the minimum. Not necessary I guess?
Most likely the majority of the carbs in a good diet will be providing micronutrients. It's also recommended to consume carbs if doing intense exercise. One can fuel oneself with fat, sure (in fact, we all use fat as fuel, you don't need to be doing a keto diet for that to be the case), but it's always less efficient so won't prevent you from bonking if exercising intensely beyond a certain period of time.
If memory serves, Gale claims to consume about 800 calories in coconut oil, which isn't providing much in the way of micros, just calories.
I doubt it it pertinent to the conversation to include specific people's dietary preferences when they are not participating in the thread.
Micronutrients are found in foods that are not carb heavy too. Micronutrient intake is largely a non issue for any well planned diet regardless of the type including low carb, Zone, vegetarian.
And no, bonking is less of an issue for someone who is adapted to a ketogenic state. Extreme endurance athletes seem to benefit from very low carb diets for that very reason. Even if it was true that fat is a less efficient fuel, and it could be for those not yet keto adapted, it would be a non-issue for most low carb people including me. I rarely do cardio or weights for more than an hour; occassionally I might be out hiking for hours but in that case I bring lunch.stevencloser wrote: »Christine_72 wrote: »I don't know anyone who eats a stick of butter... My max is 15grams
I remember a thread where someone said they did this and one other person said they do too.
I remember a thread where someone said they take 5 tablespoons of coconut oil in their morning coffee.
I remember a thread where someone said they ate more than half their diet in a macro that isn't even required nutritionally.
oh. I forget. Nevermind that.
If you function on a glucose fuel diet, you get your energy from carb calories. If you function on a fat fuel diet you get your energy from fat calories.
You seem to be implying coconut oil is not valid food and eating it is mock-worthy? I thought the official line is 'no bad foods'?
And it's not necessary to eat five times your fat minimum either but you always goes over that be too....
Hmm. There is is no minimum for carbohydrate consumption so that would put it at zero. If one is eating 40-50% of their calories in carbs... Well, that's more than five times over the minimum. Not necessary I guess?
about as necessary as blowing at your fat minimum by 50%….
I just find it amusing that the keto/LC crew argues that carbs are not necessary, OK, maybe not, but it is not necessary to blow out your fat minimum by 50% either, but you all love to gloss over that point….
oh and see @stevencloser response….
I don't think I glossed over it. I must keep carbs very low to manage my insulin resistance. I must also keep protein moderate to manage said stubborn insulin resistance (as you know, protein raises insuli and BG too). What is left? Air? Breatharian lifestyle isn't going to cut it for me.
For me, it is "necessary to blow out fat minimum by 50%" or I'll be awfully hungry. I'm not sure why eating higher fat would be bothersome for you.
Do you have any peer reviewed research on the extreme endurance athletes? From what I've seen it seems that they do ok in the steady state, which fat can keep up with, but suck wind in the higher power output aspects like final push where you really need carbohydrates since fat doesn't oxidize quickly enough.
No. I've never looked for any. Just personal accounts and discussions.
Peter Attia experimenetd on himself and had fairly clear results. He is not an extreme endurance athlete though. http://eatingacademy.com/how-a-low-carb-diet-affected-my-athletic-performance
Ben Greefield did similar things. again, he is sort of an extreme endurance athlete. I know he does triathalons. http://www.bengreenfieldfitness.com/2014/05/how-much-fat-can-you-burn-2/
Athletes in ketosis will often add some carbs right before an event that requires a short all out burst of energy. they still are in ketosis and find glucose performance enhancing for those short energy bursts.... from what I understand.
That's the crux of the problem for me on athletic performance, it's all just anecdotal and conjecture right now. I don't know of any of the elites being in keto, but if there are I would be interested to hear of this. It doesn't seem likely that a keto endurance athlete can keep up with elites but who knows. I just don't see them being able to hold up on when it gets to the sprinting due to the slower oxidation rate of fat versus carbs, you just have limits based on chemistry you can't overcome, but I'm not sure where these constraints will show without the proper data -- I'm just speculating.
I said it before in a different thread, but elite athletes are a lot like the military. If there is any chance something might be beneficial to them, they try it. If it doesn't work, they won't do it. The low amount of keto people in top class athleticism to me speaks volumes.0 -
stevencloser wrote: »Wheelhouse15 wrote: »Wheelhouse15 wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Christine_72 wrote: »I don't know anyone who eats a stick of butter... My max is 15grams
I remember a thread where someone said they did this and one other person said they do too.
I remember a thread where someone said they take 5 tablespoons of coconut oil in their morning coffee.
I remember a thread where someone said they ate more than half their diet in a macro that isn't even required nutritionally.
oh. I forget. Nevermind that.
If you function on a glucose fuel diet, you get your energy from carb calories. If you function on a fat fuel diet you get your energy from fat calories.
You seem to be implying coconut oil is not valid food and eating it is mock-worthy? I thought the official line is 'no bad foods'?
And it's not necessary to eat five times your fat minimum either but you always goes over that be too....
Hmm. There is is no minimum for carbohydrate consumption so that would put it at zero. If one is eating 40-50% of their calories in carbs... Well, that's more than five times over the minimum. Not necessary I guess?
Hmm.
There's maximum recommendations for protein and fat, I wonder what the rest of your calorie intake should consist of if you put them both at maximum and it's less than 100%.
That is not a requirement but just a recommendation by organizations whose guidelines don't work well for me (like ADA, Mayo, and AHA). I think their advice is quite outdated, along with advice to use egg substitutes instead of eggs, using low fat dairy, and substituting vegetable oils for saturated fats in cooking.
I honestly can't find any studies stating what a humans maximum fat intake should be. My guess is that it won't go higher than 90% but just because one would start to be lacking in protein.
If you have a study with the science that discovered the maximum fat intake for people, I would like to see it. It would be quite relevent to my diet.lemurcat12 wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Christine_72 wrote: »I don't know anyone who eats a stick of butter... My max is 15grams
I remember a thread where someone said they did this and one other person said they do too.
I remember a thread where someone said they take 5 tablespoons of coconut oil in their morning coffee.
I remember a thread where someone said they ate more than half their diet in a macro that isn't even required nutritionally.
oh. I forget. Nevermind that.
If you function on a glucose fuel diet, you get your energy from carb calories. If you function on a fat fuel diet you get your energy from fat calories.
You seem to be implying coconut oil is not valid food and eating it is mock-worthy? I thought the official line is 'no bad foods'?
And it's not necessary to eat five times your fat minimum either but you always goes over that be too....
Hmm. There is is no minimum for carbohydrate consumption so that would put it at zero. If one is eating 40-50% of their calories in carbs... Well, that's more than five times over the minimum. Not necessary I guess?
Most likely the majority of the carbs in a good diet will be providing micronutrients. It's also recommended to consume carbs if doing intense exercise. One can fuel oneself with fat, sure (in fact, we all use fat as fuel, you don't need to be doing a keto diet for that to be the case), but it's always less efficient so won't prevent you from bonking if exercising intensely beyond a certain period of time.
If memory serves, Gale claims to consume about 800 calories in coconut oil, which isn't providing much in the way of micros, just calories.
I doubt it it pertinent to the conversation to include specific people's dietary preferences when they are not participating in the thread.
Micronutrients are found in foods that are not carb heavy too. Micronutrient intake is largely a non issue for any well planned diet regardless of the type including low carb, Zone, vegetarian.
And no, bonking is less of an issue for someone who is adapted to a ketogenic state. Extreme endurance athletes seem to benefit from very low carb diets for that very reason. Even if it was true that fat is a less efficient fuel, and it could be for those not yet keto adapted, it would be a non-issue for most low carb people including me. I rarely do cardio or weights for more than an hour; occassionally I might be out hiking for hours but in that case I bring lunch.stevencloser wrote: »Christine_72 wrote: »I don't know anyone who eats a stick of butter... My max is 15grams
I remember a thread where someone said they did this and one other person said they do too.
I remember a thread where someone said they take 5 tablespoons of coconut oil in their morning coffee.
I remember a thread where someone said they ate more than half their diet in a macro that isn't even required nutritionally.
oh. I forget. Nevermind that.
If you function on a glucose fuel diet, you get your energy from carb calories. If you function on a fat fuel diet you get your energy from fat calories.
You seem to be implying coconut oil is not valid food and eating it is mock-worthy? I thought the official line is 'no bad foods'?
And it's not necessary to eat five times your fat minimum either but you always goes over that be too....
Hmm. There is is no minimum for carbohydrate consumption so that would put it at zero. If one is eating 40-50% of their calories in carbs... Well, that's more than five times over the minimum. Not necessary I guess?
about as necessary as blowing at your fat minimum by 50%….
I just find it amusing that the keto/LC crew argues that carbs are not necessary, OK, maybe not, but it is not necessary to blow out your fat minimum by 50% either, but you all love to gloss over that point….
oh and see @stevencloser response….
I don't think I glossed over it. I must keep carbs very low to manage my insulin resistance. I must also keep protein moderate to manage said stubborn insulin resistance (as you know, protein raises insuli and BG too). What is left? Air? Breatharian lifestyle isn't going to cut it for me.
For me, it is "necessary to blow out fat minimum by 50%" or I'll be awfully hungry. I'm not sure why eating higher fat would be bothersome for you.
Do you have any peer reviewed research on the extreme endurance athletes? From what I've seen it seems that they do ok in the steady state, which fat can keep up with, but suck wind in the higher power output aspects like final push where you really need carbohydrates since fat doesn't oxidize quickly enough.
No. I've never looked for any. Just personal accounts and discussions.
Peter Attia experimenetd on himself and had fairly clear results. He is not an extreme endurance athlete though. http://eatingacademy.com/how-a-low-carb-diet-affected-my-athletic-performance
Ben Greefield did similar things. again, he is sort of an extreme endurance athlete. I know he does triathalons. http://www.bengreenfieldfitness.com/2014/05/how-much-fat-can-you-burn-2/
Athletes in ketosis will often add some carbs right before an event that requires a short all out burst of energy. they still are in ketosis and find glucose performance enhancing for those short energy bursts.... from what I understand.
That's the crux of the problem for me on athletic performance, it's all just anecdotal and conjecture right now. I don't know of any of the elites being in keto, but if there are I would be interested to hear of this. It doesn't seem likely that a keto endurance athlete can keep up with elites but who knows. I just don't see them being able to hold up on when it gets to the sprinting due to the slower oxidation rate of fat versus carbs, you just have limits based on chemistry you can't overcome, but I'm not sure where these constraints will show without the proper data -- I'm just speculating.
I said it before in a different thread, but elite athletes are a lot like the military. If there is any chance something might be beneficial to them, they try it. If it doesn't work, they won't do it. The low amount of keto people in top class athleticism to me speaks volumes.
I was on a running board years ago when Atkins first became the darling of the diet industry and we had a few runners go on low carb diets but most found it really hurt their performance. I'm not sure what the word is on the street for keto since low carb I'm no longer there but I don't particularly know of any trend by endurance athletes to keto so I imagine you are correct in your logic.0 -
Wheelhouse15 wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Christine_72 wrote: »I don't know anyone who eats a stick of butter... My max is 15grams
I remember a thread where someone said they did this and one other person said they do too.
I remember a thread where someone said they take 5 tablespoons of coconut oil in their morning coffee.
I remember a thread where someone said they ate more than half their diet in a macro that isn't even required nutritionally.
oh. I forget. Nevermind that.
If you function on a glucose fuel diet, you get your energy from carb calories. If you function on a fat fuel diet you get your energy from fat calories.
You seem to be implying coconut oil is not valid food and eating it is mock-worthy? I thought the official line is 'no bad foods'?
And it's not necessary to eat five times your fat minimum either but you always goes over that be too....
Hmm. There is is no minimum for carbohydrate consumption so that would put it at zero. If one is eating 40-50% of their calories in carbs... Well, that's more than five times over the minimum. Not necessary I guess?
Hmm.
There's maximum recommendations for protein and fat, I wonder what the rest of your calorie intake should consist of if you put them both at maximum and it's less than 100%.
That is not a requirement but just a recommendation by organizations whose guidelines don't work well for me (like ADA, Mayo, and AHA). I think their advice is quite outdated, along with advice to use egg substitutes instead of eggs, using low fat dairy, and substituting vegetable oils for saturated fats in cooking.
I honestly can't find any studies stating what a humans maximum fat intake should be. My guess is that it won't go higher than 90% but just because one would start to be lacking in protein.
If you have a study with the science that discovered the maximum fat intake for people, I would like to see it. It would be quite relevent to my diet.lemurcat12 wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Christine_72 wrote: »I don't know anyone who eats a stick of butter... My max is 15grams
I remember a thread where someone said they did this and one other person said they do too.
I remember a thread where someone said they take 5 tablespoons of coconut oil in their morning coffee.
I remember a thread where someone said they ate more than half their diet in a macro that isn't even required nutritionally.
oh. I forget. Nevermind that.
If you function on a glucose fuel diet, you get your energy from carb calories. If you function on a fat fuel diet you get your energy from fat calories.
You seem to be implying coconut oil is not valid food and eating it is mock-worthy? I thought the official line is 'no bad foods'?
And it's not necessary to eat five times your fat minimum either but you always goes over that be too....
Hmm. There is is no minimum for carbohydrate consumption so that would put it at zero. If one is eating 40-50% of their calories in carbs... Well, that's more than five times over the minimum. Not necessary I guess?
Most likely the majority of the carbs in a good diet will be providing micronutrients. It's also recommended to consume carbs if doing intense exercise. One can fuel oneself with fat, sure (in fact, we all use fat as fuel, you don't need to be doing a keto diet for that to be the case), but it's always less efficient so won't prevent you from bonking if exercising intensely beyond a certain period of time.
If memory serves, Gale claims to consume about 800 calories in coconut oil, which isn't providing much in the way of micros, just calories.
I doubt it it pertinent to the conversation to include specific people's dietary preferences when they are not participating in the thread.
Micronutrients are found in foods that are not carb heavy too. Micronutrient intake is largely a non issue for any well planned diet regardless of the type including low carb, Zone, vegetarian.
And no, bonking is less of an issue for someone who is adapted to a ketogenic state. Extreme endurance athletes seem to benefit from very low carb diets for that very reason. Even if it was true that fat is a less efficient fuel, and it could be for those not yet keto adapted, it would be a non-issue for most low carb people including me. I rarely do cardio or weights for more than an hour; occassionally I might be out hiking for hours but in that case I bring lunch.stevencloser wrote: »Christine_72 wrote: »I don't know anyone who eats a stick of butter... My max is 15grams
I remember a thread where someone said they did this and one other person said they do too.
I remember a thread where someone said they take 5 tablespoons of coconut oil in their morning coffee.
I remember a thread where someone said they ate more than half their diet in a macro that isn't even required nutritionally.
oh. I forget. Nevermind that.
If you function on a glucose fuel diet, you get your energy from carb calories. If you function on a fat fuel diet you get your energy from fat calories.
You seem to be implying coconut oil is not valid food and eating it is mock-worthy? I thought the official line is 'no bad foods'?
And it's not necessary to eat five times your fat minimum either but you always goes over that be too....
Hmm. There is is no minimum for carbohydrate consumption so that would put it at zero. If one is eating 40-50% of their calories in carbs... Well, that's more than five times over the minimum. Not necessary I guess?
about as necessary as blowing at your fat minimum by 50%….
I just find it amusing that the keto/LC crew argues that carbs are not necessary, OK, maybe not, but it is not necessary to blow out your fat minimum by 50% either, but you all love to gloss over that point….
oh and see @stevencloser response….
I don't think I glossed over it. I must keep carbs very low to manage my insulin resistance. I must also keep protein moderate to manage said stubborn insulin resistance (as you know, protein raises insuli and BG too). What is left? Air? Breatharian lifestyle isn't going to cut it for me.
For me, it is "necessary to blow out fat minimum by 50%" or I'll be awfully hungry. I'm not sure why eating higher fat would be bothersome for you.
Do you have any peer reviewed research on the extreme endurance athletes? From what I've seen it seems that they do ok in the steady state, which fat can keep up with, but suck wind in the higher power output aspects like final push where you really need carbohydrates since fat doesn't oxidize quickly enough.
No. I've never looked for any. Just personal accounts and discussions.
Peter Attia experimenetd on himself and had fairly clear results. He is not an extreme endurance athlete though. http://eatingacademy.com/how-a-low-carb-diet-affected-my-athletic-performance
Ben Greefield did similar things. again, he is sort of an extreme endurance athlete. I know he does triathalons. http://www.bengreenfieldfitness.com/2014/05/how-much-fat-can-you-burn-2/
Athletes in ketosis will often add some carbs right before an event that requires a short all out burst of energy. they still are in ketosis and find glucose performance enhancing for those short energy bursts.... from what I understand.
The guy who says he only prepped for 14 days prior to a Hawaii Ironman?
There is some interesting info out there, but I'm just not seeing it as the ideal program for an endurance athlete.
Maybe future research will prove it, but it certainly does not yet.
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Wheelhouse15 wrote: »Wheelhouse15 wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Christine_72 wrote: »I don't know anyone who eats a stick of butter... My max is 15grams
I remember a thread where someone said they did this and one other person said they do too.
I remember a thread where someone said they take 5 tablespoons of coconut oil in their morning coffee.
I remember a thread where someone said they ate more than half their diet in a macro that isn't even required nutritionally.
oh. I forget. Nevermind that.
If you function on a glucose fuel diet, you get your energy from carb calories. If you function on a fat fuel diet you get your energy from fat calories.
You seem to be implying coconut oil is not valid food and eating it is mock-worthy? I thought the official line is 'no bad foods'?
And it's not necessary to eat five times your fat minimum either but you always goes over that be too....
Hmm. There is is no minimum for carbohydrate consumption so that would put it at zero. If one is eating 40-50% of their calories in carbs... Well, that's more than five times over the minimum. Not necessary I guess?
Hmm.
There's maximum recommendations for protein and fat, I wonder what the rest of your calorie intake should consist of if you put them both at maximum and it's less than 100%.
That is not a requirement but just a recommendation by organizations whose guidelines don't work well for me (like ADA, Mayo, and AHA). I think their advice is quite outdated, along with advice to use egg substitutes instead of eggs, using low fat dairy, and substituting vegetable oils for saturated fats in cooking.
I honestly can't find any studies stating what a humans maximum fat intake should be. My guess is that it won't go higher than 90% but just because one would start to be lacking in protein.
If you have a study with the science that discovered the maximum fat intake for people, I would like to see it. It would be quite relevent to my diet.lemurcat12 wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Christine_72 wrote: »I don't know anyone who eats a stick of butter... My max is 15grams
I remember a thread where someone said they did this and one other person said they do too.
I remember a thread where someone said they take 5 tablespoons of coconut oil in their morning coffee.
I remember a thread where someone said they ate more than half their diet in a macro that isn't even required nutritionally.
oh. I forget. Nevermind that.
If you function on a glucose fuel diet, you get your energy from carb calories. If you function on a fat fuel diet you get your energy from fat calories.
You seem to be implying coconut oil is not valid food and eating it is mock-worthy? I thought the official line is 'no bad foods'?
And it's not necessary to eat five times your fat minimum either but you always goes over that be too....
Hmm. There is is no minimum for carbohydrate consumption so that would put it at zero. If one is eating 40-50% of their calories in carbs... Well, that's more than five times over the minimum. Not necessary I guess?
Most likely the majority of the carbs in a good diet will be providing micronutrients. It's also recommended to consume carbs if doing intense exercise. One can fuel oneself with fat, sure (in fact, we all use fat as fuel, you don't need to be doing a keto diet for that to be the case), but it's always less efficient so won't prevent you from bonking if exercising intensely beyond a certain period of time.
If memory serves, Gale claims to consume about 800 calories in coconut oil, which isn't providing much in the way of micros, just calories.
I doubt it it pertinent to the conversation to include specific people's dietary preferences when they are not participating in the thread.
Micronutrients are found in foods that are not carb heavy too. Micronutrient intake is largely a non issue for any well planned diet regardless of the type including low carb, Zone, vegetarian.
And no, bonking is less of an issue for someone who is adapted to a ketogenic state. Extreme endurance athletes seem to benefit from very low carb diets for that very reason. Even if it was true that fat is a less efficient fuel, and it could be for those not yet keto adapted, it would be a non-issue for most low carb people including me. I rarely do cardio or weights for more than an hour; occassionally I might be out hiking for hours but in that case I bring lunch.stevencloser wrote: »Christine_72 wrote: »I don't know anyone who eats a stick of butter... My max is 15grams
I remember a thread where someone said they did this and one other person said they do too.
I remember a thread where someone said they take 5 tablespoons of coconut oil in their morning coffee.
I remember a thread where someone said they ate more than half their diet in a macro that isn't even required nutritionally.
oh. I forget. Nevermind that.
If you function on a glucose fuel diet, you get your energy from carb calories. If you function on a fat fuel diet you get your energy from fat calories.
You seem to be implying coconut oil is not valid food and eating it is mock-worthy? I thought the official line is 'no bad foods'?
And it's not necessary to eat five times your fat minimum either but you always goes over that be too....
Hmm. There is is no minimum for carbohydrate consumption so that would put it at zero. If one is eating 40-50% of their calories in carbs... Well, that's more than five times over the minimum. Not necessary I guess?
about as necessary as blowing at your fat minimum by 50%….
I just find it amusing that the keto/LC crew argues that carbs are not necessary, OK, maybe not, but it is not necessary to blow out your fat minimum by 50% either, but you all love to gloss over that point….
oh and see @stevencloser response….
I don't think I glossed over it. I must keep carbs very low to manage my insulin resistance. I must also keep protein moderate to manage said stubborn insulin resistance (as you know, protein raises insuli and BG too). What is left? Air? Breatharian lifestyle isn't going to cut it for me.
For me, it is "necessary to blow out fat minimum by 50%" or I'll be awfully hungry. I'm not sure why eating higher fat would be bothersome for you.
Do you have any peer reviewed research on the extreme endurance athletes? From what I've seen it seems that they do ok in the steady state, which fat can keep up with, but suck wind in the higher power output aspects like final push where you really need carbohydrates since fat doesn't oxidize quickly enough.
No. I've never looked for any. Just personal accounts and discussions.
Peter Attia experimenetd on himself and had fairly clear results. He is not an extreme endurance athlete though. http://eatingacademy.com/how-a-low-carb-diet-affected-my-athletic-performance
Ben Greefield did similar things. again, he is sort of an extreme endurance athlete. I know he does triathalons. http://www.bengreenfieldfitness.com/2014/05/how-much-fat-can-you-burn-2/
Athletes in ketosis will often add some carbs right before an event that requires a short all out burst of energy. they still are in ketosis and find glucose performance enhancing for those short energy bursts.... from what I understand.
That's the crux of the problem for me on athletic performance, it's all just anecdotal and conjecture right now. I don't know of any of the elites being in keto, but if there are I would be interested to hear of this. It doesn't seem likely that a keto endurance athlete can keep up with elites but who knows. I just don't see them being able to hold up on when it gets to the sprinting due to the slower oxidation rate of fat versus carbs, you just have limits based on chemistry you can't overcome, but I'm not sure where these constraints will show without the proper data -- I'm just speculating.
I agree. When it comes to the sprinting, I doubt ketosis is king, especially for elite athletes. It seems better suited for endurance.
I'm not sure where low carb plays into athletic performance. I tend to mainly look into very low carb ketogenic data. I wonder if it differs much.0 -
EvgeniZyntx wrote: »Wheelhouse15 wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Christine_72 wrote: »I don't know anyone who eats a stick of butter... My max is 15grams
I remember a thread where someone said they did this and one other person said they do too.
I remember a thread where someone said they take 5 tablespoons of coconut oil in their morning coffee.
I remember a thread where someone said they ate more than half their diet in a macro that isn't even required nutritionally.
oh. I forget. Nevermind that.
If you function on a glucose fuel diet, you get your energy from carb calories. If you function on a fat fuel diet you get your energy from fat calories.
You seem to be implying coconut oil is not valid food and eating it is mock-worthy? I thought the official line is 'no bad foods'?
And it's not necessary to eat five times your fat minimum either but you always goes over that be too....
Hmm. There is is no minimum for carbohydrate consumption so that would put it at zero. If one is eating 40-50% of their calories in carbs... Well, that's more than five times over the minimum. Not necessary I guess?
Hmm.
There's maximum recommendations for protein and fat, I wonder what the rest of your calorie intake should consist of if you put them both at maximum and it's less than 100%.
That is not a requirement but just a recommendation by organizations whose guidelines don't work well for me (like ADA, Mayo, and AHA). I think their advice is quite outdated, along with advice to use egg substitutes instead of eggs, using low fat dairy, and substituting vegetable oils for saturated fats in cooking.
I honestly can't find any studies stating what a humans maximum fat intake should be. My guess is that it won't go higher than 90% but just because one would start to be lacking in protein.
If you have a study with the science that discovered the maximum fat intake for people, I would like to see it. It would be quite relevent to my diet.lemurcat12 wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Christine_72 wrote: »I don't know anyone who eats a stick of butter... My max is 15grams
I remember a thread where someone said they did this and one other person said they do too.
I remember a thread where someone said they take 5 tablespoons of coconut oil in their morning coffee.
I remember a thread where someone said they ate more than half their diet in a macro that isn't even required nutritionally.
oh. I forget. Nevermind that.
If you function on a glucose fuel diet, you get your energy from carb calories. If you function on a fat fuel diet you get your energy from fat calories.
You seem to be implying coconut oil is not valid food and eating it is mock-worthy? I thought the official line is 'no bad foods'?
And it's not necessary to eat five times your fat minimum either but you always goes over that be too....
Hmm. There is is no minimum for carbohydrate consumption so that would put it at zero. If one is eating 40-50% of their calories in carbs... Well, that's more than five times over the minimum. Not necessary I guess?
Most likely the majority of the carbs in a good diet will be providing micronutrients. It's also recommended to consume carbs if doing intense exercise. One can fuel oneself with fat, sure (in fact, we all use fat as fuel, you don't need to be doing a keto diet for that to be the case), but it's always less efficient so won't prevent you from bonking if exercising intensely beyond a certain period of time.
If memory serves, Gale claims to consume about 800 calories in coconut oil, which isn't providing much in the way of micros, just calories.
I doubt it it pertinent to the conversation to include specific people's dietary preferences when they are not participating in the thread.
Micronutrients are found in foods that are not carb heavy too. Micronutrient intake is largely a non issue for any well planned diet regardless of the type including low carb, Zone, vegetarian.
And no, bonking is less of an issue for someone who is adapted to a ketogenic state. Extreme endurance athletes seem to benefit from very low carb diets for that very reason. Even if it was true that fat is a less efficient fuel, and it could be for those not yet keto adapted, it would be a non-issue for most low carb people including me. I rarely do cardio or weights for more than an hour; occassionally I might be out hiking for hours but in that case I bring lunch.stevencloser wrote: »Christine_72 wrote: »I don't know anyone who eats a stick of butter... My max is 15grams
I remember a thread where someone said they did this and one other person said they do too.
I remember a thread where someone said they take 5 tablespoons of coconut oil in their morning coffee.
I remember a thread where someone said they ate more than half their diet in a macro that isn't even required nutritionally.
oh. I forget. Nevermind that.
If you function on a glucose fuel diet, you get your energy from carb calories. If you function on a fat fuel diet you get your energy from fat calories.
You seem to be implying coconut oil is not valid food and eating it is mock-worthy? I thought the official line is 'no bad foods'?
And it's not necessary to eat five times your fat minimum either but you always goes over that be too....
Hmm. There is is no minimum for carbohydrate consumption so that would put it at zero. If one is eating 40-50% of their calories in carbs... Well, that's more than five times over the minimum. Not necessary I guess?
about as necessary as blowing at your fat minimum by 50%….
I just find it amusing that the keto/LC crew argues that carbs are not necessary, OK, maybe not, but it is not necessary to blow out your fat minimum by 50% either, but you all love to gloss over that point….
oh and see @stevencloser response….
I don't think I glossed over it. I must keep carbs very low to manage my insulin resistance. I must also keep protein moderate to manage said stubborn insulin resistance (as you know, protein raises insuli and BG too). What is left? Air? Breatharian lifestyle isn't going to cut it for me.
For me, it is "necessary to blow out fat minimum by 50%" or I'll be awfully hungry. I'm not sure why eating higher fat would be bothersome for you.
Do you have any peer reviewed research on the extreme endurance athletes? From what I've seen it seems that they do ok in the steady state, which fat can keep up with, but suck wind in the higher power output aspects like final push where you really need carbohydrates since fat doesn't oxidize quickly enough.
No. I've never looked for any. Just personal accounts and discussions.
Peter Attia experimenetd on himself and had fairly clear results. He is not an extreme endurance athlete though. http://eatingacademy.com/how-a-low-carb-diet-affected-my-athletic-performance
Ben Greefield did similar things. again, he is sort of an extreme endurance athlete. I know he does triathalons. http://www.bengreenfieldfitness.com/2014/05/how-much-fat-can-you-burn-2/
Athletes in ketosis will often add some carbs right before an event that requires a short all out burst of energy. they still are in ketosis and find glucose performance enhancing for those short energy bursts.... from what I understand.
The guy who says he only prepped for 14 days prior to a Hawaii Ironman?
There is some interesting info out there, but I'm just not seeing it as the ideal program for an endurance athlete.
Maybe future research will prove it, but it certainly does not yet.
Isn't the Hawaii Ironman invitation only? If so don't know how you prep for only 14 days.0 -
Wheelhouse15 wrote: »EvgeniZyntx wrote: »Wheelhouse15 wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Christine_72 wrote: »I don't know anyone who eats a stick of butter... My max is 15grams
I remember a thread where someone said they did this and one other person said they do too.
I remember a thread where someone said they take 5 tablespoons of coconut oil in their morning coffee.
I remember a thread where someone said they ate more than half their diet in a macro that isn't even required nutritionally.
oh. I forget. Nevermind that.
If you function on a glucose fuel diet, you get your energy from carb calories. If you function on a fat fuel diet you get your energy from fat calories.
You seem to be implying coconut oil is not valid food and eating it is mock-worthy? I thought the official line is 'no bad foods'?
And it's not necessary to eat five times your fat minimum either but you always goes over that be too....
Hmm. There is is no minimum for carbohydrate consumption so that would put it at zero. If one is eating 40-50% of their calories in carbs... Well, that's more than five times over the minimum. Not necessary I guess?
Hmm.
There's maximum recommendations for protein and fat, I wonder what the rest of your calorie intake should consist of if you put them both at maximum and it's less than 100%.
That is not a requirement but just a recommendation by organizations whose guidelines don't work well for me (like ADA, Mayo, and AHA). I think their advice is quite outdated, along with advice to use egg substitutes instead of eggs, using low fat dairy, and substituting vegetable oils for saturated fats in cooking.
I honestly can't find any studies stating what a humans maximum fat intake should be. My guess is that it won't go higher than 90% but just because one would start to be lacking in protein.
If you have a study with the science that discovered the maximum fat intake for people, I would like to see it. It would be quite relevent to my diet.lemurcat12 wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Christine_72 wrote: »I don't know anyone who eats a stick of butter... My max is 15grams
I remember a thread where someone said they did this and one other person said they do too.
I remember a thread where someone said they take 5 tablespoons of coconut oil in their morning coffee.
I remember a thread where someone said they ate more than half their diet in a macro that isn't even required nutritionally.
oh. I forget. Nevermind that.
If you function on a glucose fuel diet, you get your energy from carb calories. If you function on a fat fuel diet you get your energy from fat calories.
You seem to be implying coconut oil is not valid food and eating it is mock-worthy? I thought the official line is 'no bad foods'?
And it's not necessary to eat five times your fat minimum either but you always goes over that be too....
Hmm. There is is no minimum for carbohydrate consumption so that would put it at zero. If one is eating 40-50% of their calories in carbs... Well, that's more than five times over the minimum. Not necessary I guess?
Most likely the majority of the carbs in a good diet will be providing micronutrients. It's also recommended to consume carbs if doing intense exercise. One can fuel oneself with fat, sure (in fact, we all use fat as fuel, you don't need to be doing a keto diet for that to be the case), but it's always less efficient so won't prevent you from bonking if exercising intensely beyond a certain period of time.
If memory serves, Gale claims to consume about 800 calories in coconut oil, which isn't providing much in the way of micros, just calories.
I doubt it it pertinent to the conversation to include specific people's dietary preferences when they are not participating in the thread.
Micronutrients are found in foods that are not carb heavy too. Micronutrient intake is largely a non issue for any well planned diet regardless of the type including low carb, Zone, vegetarian.
And no, bonking is less of an issue for someone who is adapted to a ketogenic state. Extreme endurance athletes seem to benefit from very low carb diets for that very reason. Even if it was true that fat is a less efficient fuel, and it could be for those not yet keto adapted, it would be a non-issue for most low carb people including me. I rarely do cardio or weights for more than an hour; occassionally I might be out hiking for hours but in that case I bring lunch.stevencloser wrote: »Christine_72 wrote: »I don't know anyone who eats a stick of butter... My max is 15grams
I remember a thread where someone said they did this and one other person said they do too.
I remember a thread where someone said they take 5 tablespoons of coconut oil in their morning coffee.
I remember a thread where someone said they ate more than half their diet in a macro that isn't even required nutritionally.
oh. I forget. Nevermind that.
If you function on a glucose fuel diet, you get your energy from carb calories. If you function on a fat fuel diet you get your energy from fat calories.
You seem to be implying coconut oil is not valid food and eating it is mock-worthy? I thought the official line is 'no bad foods'?
And it's not necessary to eat five times your fat minimum either but you always goes over that be too....
Hmm. There is is no minimum for carbohydrate consumption so that would put it at zero. If one is eating 40-50% of their calories in carbs... Well, that's more than five times over the minimum. Not necessary I guess?
about as necessary as blowing at your fat minimum by 50%….
I just find it amusing that the keto/LC crew argues that carbs are not necessary, OK, maybe not, but it is not necessary to blow out your fat minimum by 50% either, but you all love to gloss over that point….
oh and see @stevencloser response….
I don't think I glossed over it. I must keep carbs very low to manage my insulin resistance. I must also keep protein moderate to manage said stubborn insulin resistance (as you know, protein raises insuli and BG too). What is left? Air? Breatharian lifestyle isn't going to cut it for me.
For me, it is "necessary to blow out fat minimum by 50%" or I'll be awfully hungry. I'm not sure why eating higher fat would be bothersome for you.
Do you have any peer reviewed research on the extreme endurance athletes? From what I've seen it seems that they do ok in the steady state, which fat can keep up with, but suck wind in the higher power output aspects like final push where you really need carbohydrates since fat doesn't oxidize quickly enough.
No. I've never looked for any. Just personal accounts and discussions.
Peter Attia experimenetd on himself and had fairly clear results. He is not an extreme endurance athlete though. http://eatingacademy.com/how-a-low-carb-diet-affected-my-athletic-performance
Ben Greefield did similar things. again, he is sort of an extreme endurance athlete. I know he does triathalons. http://www.bengreenfieldfitness.com/2014/05/how-much-fat-can-you-burn-2/
Athletes in ketosis will often add some carbs right before an event that requires a short all out burst of energy. they still are in ketosis and find glucose performance enhancing for those short energy bursts.... from what I understand.
The guy who says he only prepped for 14 days prior to a Hawaii Ironman?
There is some interesting info out there, but I'm just not seeing it as the ideal program for an endurance athlete.
Maybe future research will prove it, but it certainly does not yet.
Isn't the Hawaii Ironman invitation only? If so don't know how you prep for only 14 days.
I don't either, but it is what he says.
http://www.bengreenfieldfitness.com/2014/10/ben-greenfield-ironman-race-report/0 -
We interrupt your normal programming to say thanks to @lemurcat12 and @nvmomketo for the laughs. "Bonking" means something entirely different down here in little old New Zealand. But, it does apparently burn plenty of calories, so perhaps figuring out whether low-carb/high-carb affects endurance or, ahem, performance, could be an interesting exercise.
Sorry for the de-rail, please continue.0 -
EvgeniZyntx wrote: »Wheelhouse15 wrote: »EvgeniZyntx wrote: »Wheelhouse15 wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Christine_72 wrote: »I don't know anyone who eats a stick of butter... My max is 15grams
I remember a thread where someone said they did this and one other person said they do too.
I remember a thread where someone said they take 5 tablespoons of coconut oil in their morning coffee.
I remember a thread where someone said they ate more than half their diet in a macro that isn't even required nutritionally.
oh. I forget. Nevermind that.
If you function on a glucose fuel diet, you get your energy from carb calories. If you function on a fat fuel diet you get your energy from fat calories.
You seem to be implying coconut oil is not valid food and eating it is mock-worthy? I thought the official line is 'no bad foods'?
And it's not necessary to eat five times your fat minimum either but you always goes over that be too....
Hmm. There is is no minimum for carbohydrate consumption so that would put it at zero. If one is eating 40-50% of their calories in carbs... Well, that's more than five times over the minimum. Not necessary I guess?
Hmm.
There's maximum recommendations for protein and fat, I wonder what the rest of your calorie intake should consist of if you put them both at maximum and it's less than 100%.
That is not a requirement but just a recommendation by organizations whose guidelines don't work well for me (like ADA, Mayo, and AHA). I think their advice is quite outdated, along with advice to use egg substitutes instead of eggs, using low fat dairy, and substituting vegetable oils for saturated fats in cooking.
I honestly can't find any studies stating what a humans maximum fat intake should be. My guess is that it won't go higher than 90% but just because one would start to be lacking in protein.
If you have a study with the science that discovered the maximum fat intake for people, I would like to see it. It would be quite relevent to my diet.lemurcat12 wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Christine_72 wrote: »I don't know anyone who eats a stick of butter... My max is 15grams
I remember a thread where someone said they did this and one other person said they do too.
I remember a thread where someone said they take 5 tablespoons of coconut oil in their morning coffee.
I remember a thread where someone said they ate more than half their diet in a macro that isn't even required nutritionally.
oh. I forget. Nevermind that.
If you function on a glucose fuel diet, you get your energy from carb calories. If you function on a fat fuel diet you get your energy from fat calories.
You seem to be implying coconut oil is not valid food and eating it is mock-worthy? I thought the official line is 'no bad foods'?
And it's not necessary to eat five times your fat minimum either but you always goes over that be too....
Hmm. There is is no minimum for carbohydrate consumption so that would put it at zero. If one is eating 40-50% of their calories in carbs... Well, that's more than five times over the minimum. Not necessary I guess?
Most likely the majority of the carbs in a good diet will be providing micronutrients. It's also recommended to consume carbs if doing intense exercise. One can fuel oneself with fat, sure (in fact, we all use fat as fuel, you don't need to be doing a keto diet for that to be the case), but it's always less efficient so won't prevent you from bonking if exercising intensely beyond a certain period of time.
If memory serves, Gale claims to consume about 800 calories in coconut oil, which isn't providing much in the way of micros, just calories.
I doubt it it pertinent to the conversation to include specific people's dietary preferences when they are not participating in the thread.
Micronutrients are found in foods that are not carb heavy too. Micronutrient intake is largely a non issue for any well planned diet regardless of the type including low carb, Zone, vegetarian.
And no, bonking is less of an issue for someone who is adapted to a ketogenic state. Extreme endurance athletes seem to benefit from very low carb diets for that very reason. Even if it was true that fat is a less efficient fuel, and it could be for those not yet keto adapted, it would be a non-issue for most low carb people including me. I rarely do cardio or weights for more than an hour; occassionally I might be out hiking for hours but in that case I bring lunch.stevencloser wrote: »Christine_72 wrote: »I don't know anyone who eats a stick of butter... My max is 15grams
I remember a thread where someone said they did this and one other person said they do too.
I remember a thread where someone said they take 5 tablespoons of coconut oil in their morning coffee.
I remember a thread where someone said they ate more than half their diet in a macro that isn't even required nutritionally.
oh. I forget. Nevermind that.
If you function on a glucose fuel diet, you get your energy from carb calories. If you function on a fat fuel diet you get your energy from fat calories.
You seem to be implying coconut oil is not valid food and eating it is mock-worthy? I thought the official line is 'no bad foods'?
And it's not necessary to eat five times your fat minimum either but you always goes over that be too....
Hmm. There is is no minimum for carbohydrate consumption so that would put it at zero. If one is eating 40-50% of their calories in carbs... Well, that's more than five times over the minimum. Not necessary I guess?
about as necessary as blowing at your fat minimum by 50%….
I just find it amusing that the keto/LC crew argues that carbs are not necessary, OK, maybe not, but it is not necessary to blow out your fat minimum by 50% either, but you all love to gloss over that point….
oh and see @stevencloser response….
I don't think I glossed over it. I must keep carbs very low to manage my insulin resistance. I must also keep protein moderate to manage said stubborn insulin resistance (as you know, protein raises insuli and BG too). What is left? Air? Breatharian lifestyle isn't going to cut it for me.
For me, it is "necessary to blow out fat minimum by 50%" or I'll be awfully hungry. I'm not sure why eating higher fat would be bothersome for you.
Do you have any peer reviewed research on the extreme endurance athletes? From what I've seen it seems that they do ok in the steady state, which fat can keep up with, but suck wind in the higher power output aspects like final push where you really need carbohydrates since fat doesn't oxidize quickly enough.
No. I've never looked for any. Just personal accounts and discussions.
Peter Attia experimenetd on himself and had fairly clear results. He is not an extreme endurance athlete though. http://eatingacademy.com/how-a-low-carb-diet-affected-my-athletic-performance
Ben Greefield did similar things. again, he is sort of an extreme endurance athlete. I know he does triathalons. http://www.bengreenfieldfitness.com/2014/05/how-much-fat-can-you-burn-2/
Athletes in ketosis will often add some carbs right before an event that requires a short all out burst of energy. they still are in ketosis and find glucose performance enhancing for those short energy bursts.... from what I understand.
The guy who says he only prepped for 14 days prior to a Hawaii Ironman?
There is some interesting info out there, but I'm just not seeing it as the ideal program for an endurance athlete.
Maybe future research will prove it, but it certainly does not yet.
Isn't the Hawaii Ironman invitation only? If so don't know how you prep for only 14 days.
I don't either, but it is what he says.
http://www.bengreenfieldfitness.com/2014/10/ben-greenfield-ironman-race-report/
LOL he did yoga during the race? Thanks for the link I'll have to listen and read some more of his stuff.0 -
I've been losing happily with low carb (but not ketosis).
I couldn't lose anything with calorie counting or low fat diets, even when I stuck to them, which I often couldn't.
I am probably unusual in not missing carbs. I gave up sugar for a year, first, because I had a terrible sweet tooth that always brought me down. Breaking that addiction first was key for me.
But we are all so different. I learned portion control at WW but it didn't help impulse eating. I exercise everyday but it wasn't ever enough to burn off the weight.
I'm glad I finally found a thing that suits me but it certainly wouldn't suit everyone.
0 -
We interrupt your normal programming to say thanks to @lemurcat12 and @nvmomketo for the laughs. "Bonking" means something entirely different down here in little old New Zealand. But, it does apparently burn plenty of calories, so perhaps figuring out whether low-carb/high-carb affects endurance or, ahem, performance, could be an interesting exercise.
Sorry for the de-rail, please continue.
Oops.
My brother wore a Roots hat to Australia and NZ while travelling a few years back. It was innocent! It's clothing company here in Canada and they design the olympians clothing. LOL
0 -
We interrupt your normal programming to say thanks to @lemurcat12 and @nvmomketo for the laughs. "Bonking" means something entirely different down here in little old New Zealand. But, it does apparently burn plenty of calories, so perhaps figuring out whether low-carb/high-carb affects endurance or, ahem, performance, could be an interesting exercise.
Sorry for the de-rail, please continue.
You are excused
0 -
EvgeniZyntx wrote: »Wheelhouse15 wrote: »EvgeniZyntx wrote: »Wheelhouse15 wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Christine_72 wrote: »I don't know anyone who eats a stick of butter... My max is 15grams
I remember a thread where someone said they did this and one other person said they do too.
I remember a thread where someone said they take 5 tablespoons of coconut oil in their morning coffee.
I remember a thread where someone said they ate more than half their diet in a macro that isn't even required nutritionally.
oh. I forget. Nevermind that.
If you function on a glucose fuel diet, you get your energy from carb calories. If you function on a fat fuel diet you get your energy from fat calories.
You seem to be implying coconut oil is not valid food and eating it is mock-worthy? I thought the official line is 'no bad foods'?
And it's not necessary to eat five times your fat minimum either but you always goes over that be too....
Hmm. There is is no minimum for carbohydrate consumption so that would put it at zero. If one is eating 40-50% of their calories in carbs... Well, that's more than five times over the minimum. Not necessary I guess?
Hmm.
There's maximum recommendations for protein and fat, I wonder what the rest of your calorie intake should consist of if you put them both at maximum and it's less than 100%.
That is not a requirement but just a recommendation by organizations whose guidelines don't work well for me (like ADA, Mayo, and AHA). I think their advice is quite outdated, along with advice to use egg substitutes instead of eggs, using low fat dairy, and substituting vegetable oils for saturated fats in cooking.
I honestly can't find any studies stating what a humans maximum fat intake should be. My guess is that it won't go higher than 90% but just because one would start to be lacking in protein.
If you have a study with the science that discovered the maximum fat intake for people, I would like to see it. It would be quite relevent to my diet.lemurcat12 wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Christine_72 wrote: »I don't know anyone who eats a stick of butter... My max is 15grams
I remember a thread where someone said they did this and one other person said they do too.
I remember a thread where someone said they take 5 tablespoons of coconut oil in their morning coffee.
I remember a thread where someone said they ate more than half their diet in a macro that isn't even required nutritionally.
oh. I forget. Nevermind that.
If you function on a glucose fuel diet, you get your energy from carb calories. If you function on a fat fuel diet you get your energy from fat calories.
You seem to be implying coconut oil is not valid food and eating it is mock-worthy? I thought the official line is 'no bad foods'?
And it's not necessary to eat five times your fat minimum either but you always goes over that be too....
Hmm. There is is no minimum for carbohydrate consumption so that would put it at zero. If one is eating 40-50% of their calories in carbs... Well, that's more than five times over the minimum. Not necessary I guess?
Most likely the majority of the carbs in a good diet will be providing micronutrients. It's also recommended to consume carbs if doing intense exercise. One can fuel oneself with fat, sure (in fact, we all use fat as fuel, you don't need to be doing a keto diet for that to be the case), but it's always less efficient so won't prevent you from bonking if exercising intensely beyond a certain period of time.
If memory serves, Gale claims to consume about 800 calories in coconut oil, which isn't providing much in the way of micros, just calories.
I doubt it it pertinent to the conversation to include specific people's dietary preferences when they are not participating in the thread.
Micronutrients are found in foods that are not carb heavy too. Micronutrient intake is largely a non issue for any well planned diet regardless of the type including low carb, Zone, vegetarian.
And no, bonking is less of an issue for someone who is adapted to a ketogenic state. Extreme endurance athletes seem to benefit from very low carb diets for that very reason. Even if it was true that fat is a less efficient fuel, and it could be for those not yet keto adapted, it would be a non-issue for most low carb people including me. I rarely do cardio or weights for more than an hour; occassionally I might be out hiking for hours but in that case I bring lunch.stevencloser wrote: »Christine_72 wrote: »I don't know anyone who eats a stick of butter... My max is 15grams
I remember a thread where someone said they did this and one other person said they do too.
I remember a thread where someone said they take 5 tablespoons of coconut oil in their morning coffee.
I remember a thread where someone said they ate more than half their diet in a macro that isn't even required nutritionally.
oh. I forget. Nevermind that.
If you function on a glucose fuel diet, you get your energy from carb calories. If you function on a fat fuel diet you get your energy from fat calories.
You seem to be implying coconut oil is not valid food and eating it is mock-worthy? I thought the official line is 'no bad foods'?
And it's not necessary to eat five times your fat minimum either but you always goes over that be too....
Hmm. There is is no minimum for carbohydrate consumption so that would put it at zero. If one is eating 40-50% of their calories in carbs... Well, that's more than five times over the minimum. Not necessary I guess?
about as necessary as blowing at your fat minimum by 50%….
I just find it amusing that the keto/LC crew argues that carbs are not necessary, OK, maybe not, but it is not necessary to blow out your fat minimum by 50% either, but you all love to gloss over that point….
oh and see @stevencloser response….
I don't think I glossed over it. I must keep carbs very low to manage my insulin resistance. I must also keep protein moderate to manage said stubborn insulin resistance (as you know, protein raises insuli and BG too). What is left? Air? Breatharian lifestyle isn't going to cut it for me.
For me, it is "necessary to blow out fat minimum by 50%" or I'll be awfully hungry. I'm not sure why eating higher fat would be bothersome for you.
Do you have any peer reviewed research on the extreme endurance athletes? From what I've seen it seems that they do ok in the steady state, which fat can keep up with, but suck wind in the higher power output aspects like final push where you really need carbohydrates since fat doesn't oxidize quickly enough.
No. I've never looked for any. Just personal accounts and discussions.
Peter Attia experimenetd on himself and had fairly clear results. He is not an extreme endurance athlete though. http://eatingacademy.com/how-a-low-carb-diet-affected-my-athletic-performance
Ben Greefield did similar things. again, he is sort of an extreme endurance athlete. I know he does triathalons. http://www.bengreenfieldfitness.com/2014/05/how-much-fat-can-you-burn-2/
Athletes in ketosis will often add some carbs right before an event that requires a short all out burst of energy. they still are in ketosis and find glucose performance enhancing for those short energy bursts.... from what I understand.
The guy who says he only prepped for 14 days prior to a Hawaii Ironman?
There is some interesting info out there, but I'm just not seeing it as the ideal program for an endurance athlete.
Maybe future research will prove it, but it certainly does not yet.
Isn't the Hawaii Ironman invitation only? If so don't know how you prep for only 14 days.
I don't either, but it is what he says.
http://www.bengreenfieldfitness.com/2014/10/ben-greenfield-ironman-race-report/
Actually, now that I look at the site I've seen some of this guy before, he was in great shape already and has run several Tris before so I can see it.0 -
Now I will interrupt your normal programming. Was reading and came across this low carb pizza recipe. I was wondering if any of you low carbers have tasted this and how was it. Sounds like it would be good. http://www.fathead-movie.com/index.php/2013/06/30/weekend-bonus-the-older-brothers-oldest-sons-faux-carb-pizza/0
-
Wetcoaster wrote: »Now I will interrupt your normal programming. Was reading and came across this low carb pizza recipe. I was wondering if any of you low carbers have tasted this and how was it. Sounds like it would be good. http://www.fathead-movie.com/index.php/2013/06/30/weekend-bonus-the-older-brothers-oldest-sons-faux-carb-pizza/
It does look good. That's basically a cream cheese pancake for the crust. I haven't made it but I've been told that it is quite tasty with whipped cream and a sugar free syrup.
Now consider low carb nachos: http://peaceloveandlowcarb.com/2011/07/low-carb-nachos.html
0 -
Wetcoaster wrote: »Now I will interrupt your normal programming. Was reading and came across this low carb pizza recipe. I was wondering if any of you low carbers have tasted this and how was it. Sounds like it would be good. http://www.fathead-movie.com/index.php/2013/06/30/weekend-bonus-the-older-brothers-oldest-sons-faux-carb-pizza/
It does look good. That's basically a cream cheese pancake for the crust. I haven't made it but I've been told that it is quite tasty with whipped cream and a sugar free syrup.
Now consider low carb nachos: http://peaceloveandlowcarb.com/2011/07/low-carb-nachos.html
Low carb nachos???????
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I think there was a marathoner who qualified for the Olympics with a 2:42 run for his country. On the surface it sounds impressive. An Olympian running on keto or LC. The problem was the time. A local guy last year ran a 2:42 in Michigan? I think to win a marathon. Next day his buddy drove him to a neighboring state and he ran another marathon, 10 seconds slower, and won. He eats a balanced diet. Spoke to him last May, and he said the US Olympic times for 'B' marathoners are 2:18-2:20 and the A times were lower. So, can a LCer be a marathoner? With a reasonably fast time? Maybe in some small part of the world or where marathoners aren't considered elite in other parts. It's just perspective but every elite athlete I've met or talked to would not try to operate on Keto. It makes no sense to them.Wheelhouse15 wrote: »Wheelhouse15 wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Christine_72 wrote: »I don't know anyone who eats a stick of butter... My max is 15grams
I remember a thread where someone said they did this and one other person said they do too.
I remember a thread where someone said they take 5 tablespoons of coconut oil in their morning coffee.
I remember a thread where someone said they ate more than half their diet in a macro that isn't even required nutritionally.
oh. I forget. Nevermind that.
If you function on a glucose fuel diet, you get your energy from carb calories. If you function on a fat fuel diet you get your energy from fat calories.
You seem to be implying coconut oil is not valid food and eating it is mock-worthy? I thought the official line is 'no bad foods'?
And it's not necessary to eat five times your fat minimum either but you always goes over that be too....
Hmm. There is is no minimum for carbohydrate consumption so that would put it at zero. If one is eating 40-50% of their calories in carbs... Well, that's more than five times over the minimum. Not necessary I guess?
Hmm.
There's maximum recommendations for protein and fat, I wonder what the rest of your calorie intake should consist of if you put them both at maximum and it's less than 100%.
That is not a requirement but just a recommendation by organizations whose guidelines don't work well for me (like ADA, Mayo, and AHA). I think their advice is quite outdated, along with advice to use egg substitutes instead of eggs, using low fat dairy, and substituting vegetable oils for saturated fats in cooking.
I honestly can't find any studies stating what a humans maximum fat intake should be. My guess is that it won't go higher than 90% but just because one would start to be lacking in protein.
If you have a study with the science that discovered the maximum fat intake for people, I would like to see it. It would be quite relevent to my diet.lemurcat12 wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Christine_72 wrote: »I don't know anyone who eats a stick of butter... My max is 15grams
I remember a thread where someone said they did this and one other person said they do too.
I remember a thread where someone said they take 5 tablespoons of coconut oil in their morning coffee.
I remember a thread where someone said they ate more than half their diet in a macro that isn't even required nutritionally.
oh. I forget. Nevermind that.
If you function on a glucose fuel diet, you get your energy from carb calories. If you function on a fat fuel diet you get your energy from fat calories.
You seem to be implying coconut oil is not valid food and eating it is mock-worthy? I thought the official line is 'no bad foods'?
And it's not necessary to eat five times your fat minimum either but you always goes over that be too....
Hmm. There is is no minimum for carbohydrate consumption so that would put it at zero. If one is eating 40-50% of their calories in carbs... Well, that's more than five times over the minimum. Not necessary I guess?
Most likely the majority of the carbs in a good diet will be providing micronutrients. It's also recommended to consume carbs if doing intense exercise. One can fuel oneself with fat, sure (in fact, we all use fat as fuel, you don't need to be doing a keto diet for that to be the case), but it's always less efficient so won't prevent you from bonking if exercising intensely beyond a certain period of time.
If memory serves, Gale claims to consume about 800 calories in coconut oil, which isn't providing much in the way of micros, just calories.
I doubt it it pertinent to the conversation to include specific people's dietary preferences when they are not participating in the thread.
Micronutrients are found in foods that are not carb heavy too. Micronutrient intake is largely a non issue for any well planned diet regardless of the type including low carb, Zone, vegetarian.
And no, bonking is less of an issue for someone who is adapted to a ketogenic state. Extreme endurance athletes seem to benefit from very low carb diets for that very reason. Even if it was true that fat is a less efficient fuel, and it could be for those not yet keto adapted, it would be a non-issue for most low carb people including me. I rarely do cardio or weights for more than an hour; occassionally I might be out hiking for hours but in that case I bring lunch.stevencloser wrote: »Christine_72 wrote: »I don't know anyone who eats a stick of butter... My max is 15grams
I remember a thread where someone said they did this and one other person said they do too.
I remember a thread where someone said they take 5 tablespoons of coconut oil in their morning coffee.
I remember a thread where someone said they ate more than half their diet in a macro that isn't even required nutritionally.
oh. I forget. Nevermind that.
If you function on a glucose fuel diet, you get your energy from carb calories. If you function on a fat fuel diet you get your energy from fat calories.
You seem to be implying coconut oil is not valid food and eating it is mock-worthy? I thought the official line is 'no bad foods'?
And it's not necessary to eat five times your fat minimum either but you always goes over that be too....
Hmm. There is is no minimum for carbohydrate consumption so that would put it at zero. If one is eating 40-50% of their calories in carbs... Well, that's more than five times over the minimum. Not necessary I guess?
about as necessary as blowing at your fat minimum by 50%….
I just find it amusing that the keto/LC crew argues that carbs are not necessary, OK, maybe not, but it is not necessary to blow out your fat minimum by 50% either, but you all love to gloss over that point….
oh and see @stevencloser response….
I don't think I glossed over it. I must keep carbs very low to manage my insulin resistance. I must also keep protein moderate to manage said stubborn insulin resistance (as you know, protein raises insuli and BG too). What is left? Air? Breatharian lifestyle isn't going to cut it for me.
For me, it is "necessary to blow out fat minimum by 50%" or I'll be awfully hungry. I'm not sure why eating higher fat would be bothersome for you.
Do you have any peer reviewed research on the extreme endurance athletes? From what I've seen it seems that they do ok in the steady state, which fat can keep up with, but suck wind in the higher power output aspects like final push where you really need carbohydrates since fat doesn't oxidize quickly enough.
No. I've never looked for any. Just personal accounts and discussions.
Peter Attia experimenetd on himself and had fairly clear results. He is not an extreme endurance athlete though. http://eatingacademy.com/how-a-low-carb-diet-affected-my-athletic-performance
Ben Greefield did similar things. again, he is sort of an extreme endurance athlete. I know he does triathalons. http://www.bengreenfieldfitness.com/2014/05/how-much-fat-can-you-burn-2/
Athletes in ketosis will often add some carbs right before an event that requires a short all out burst of energy. they still are in ketosis and find glucose performance enhancing for those short energy bursts.... from what I understand.
That's the crux of the problem for me on athletic performance, it's all just anecdotal and conjecture right now. I don't know of any of the elites being in keto, but if there are I would be interested to hear of this. It doesn't seem likely that a keto endurance athlete can keep up with elites but who knows. I just don't see them being able to hold up on when it gets to the sprinting due to the slower oxidation rate of fat versus carbs, you just have limits based on chemistry you can't overcome, but I'm not sure where these constraints will show without the proper data -- I'm just speculating.
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_Terrapin_ wrote: »
I think there was a marathoner who qualified for the Olympics with a 2:42 run for his country. On the surface it sounds impressive. An Olympian running on keto or LC. The problem was the time. A local guy last year ran a 2:42 in Michigan? I think to win a marathon. Next day his buddy drove him to a neighboring state and he ran another marathon, 10 seconds slower, and won. He eats a balanced diet. Spoke to him last May, and he said the US Olympic times for 'B' marathoners are 2:18-2:20 and the A times were lower. So, can a LCer be a marathoner? With a reasonably fast time? Maybe in some small part of the world or where marathoners aren't considered elite in other parts. It's just perspective but every elite athlete I've met or talked to would not try to operate on Keto. It makes no sense to them.Wheelhouse15 wrote: »Wheelhouse15 wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Christine_72 wrote: »I don't know anyone who eats a stick of butter... My max is 15grams
I remember a thread where someone said they did this and one other person said they do too.
I remember a thread where someone said they take 5 tablespoons of coconut oil in their morning coffee.
I remember a thread where someone said they ate more than half their diet in a macro that isn't even required nutritionally.
oh. I forget. Nevermind that.
If you function on a glucose fuel diet, you get your energy from carb calories. If you function on a fat fuel diet you get your energy from fat calories.
You seem to be implying coconut oil is not valid food and eating it is mock-worthy? I thought the official line is 'no bad foods'?
And it's not necessary to eat five times your fat minimum either but you always goes over that be too....
Hmm. There is is no minimum for carbohydrate consumption so that would put it at zero. If one is eating 40-50% of their calories in carbs... Well, that's more than five times over the minimum. Not necessary I guess?
Hmm.
There's maximum recommendations for protein and fat, I wonder what the rest of your calorie intake should consist of if you put them both at maximum and it's less than 100%.
That is not a requirement but just a recommendation by organizations whose guidelines don't work well for me (like ADA, Mayo, and AHA). I think their advice is quite outdated, along with advice to use egg substitutes instead of eggs, using low fat dairy, and substituting vegetable oils for saturated fats in cooking.
I honestly can't find any studies stating what a humans maximum fat intake should be. My guess is that it won't go higher than 90% but just because one would start to be lacking in protein.
If you have a study with the science that discovered the maximum fat intake for people, I would like to see it. It would be quite relevent to my diet.lemurcat12 wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Christine_72 wrote: »I don't know anyone who eats a stick of butter... My max is 15grams
I remember a thread where someone said they did this and one other person said they do too.
I remember a thread where someone said they take 5 tablespoons of coconut oil in their morning coffee.
I remember a thread where someone said they ate more than half their diet in a macro that isn't even required nutritionally.
oh. I forget. Nevermind that.
If you function on a glucose fuel diet, you get your energy from carb calories. If you function on a fat fuel diet you get your energy from fat calories.
You seem to be implying coconut oil is not valid food and eating it is mock-worthy? I thought the official line is 'no bad foods'?
And it's not necessary to eat five times your fat minimum either but you always goes over that be too....
Hmm. There is is no minimum for carbohydrate consumption so that would put it at zero. If one is eating 40-50% of their calories in carbs... Well, that's more than five times over the minimum. Not necessary I guess?
Most likely the majority of the carbs in a good diet will be providing micronutrients. It's also recommended to consume carbs if doing intense exercise. One can fuel oneself with fat, sure (in fact, we all use fat as fuel, you don't need to be doing a keto diet for that to be the case), but it's always less efficient so won't prevent you from bonking if exercising intensely beyond a certain period of time.
If memory serves, Gale claims to consume about 800 calories in coconut oil, which isn't providing much in the way of micros, just calories.
I doubt it it pertinent to the conversation to include specific people's dietary preferences when they are not participating in the thread.
Micronutrients are found in foods that are not carb heavy too. Micronutrient intake is largely a non issue for any well planned diet regardless of the type including low carb, Zone, vegetarian.
And no, bonking is less of an issue for someone who is adapted to a ketogenic state. Extreme endurance athletes seem to benefit from very low carb diets for that very reason. Even if it was true that fat is a less efficient fuel, and it could be for those not yet keto adapted, it would be a non-issue for most low carb people including me. I rarely do cardio or weights for more than an hour; occassionally I might be out hiking for hours but in that case I bring lunch.stevencloser wrote: »Christine_72 wrote: »I don't know anyone who eats a stick of butter... My max is 15grams
I remember a thread where someone said they did this and one other person said they do too.
I remember a thread where someone said they take 5 tablespoons of coconut oil in their morning coffee.
I remember a thread where someone said they ate more than half their diet in a macro that isn't even required nutritionally.
oh. I forget. Nevermind that.
If you function on a glucose fuel diet, you get your energy from carb calories. If you function on a fat fuel diet you get your energy from fat calories.
You seem to be implying coconut oil is not valid food and eating it is mock-worthy? I thought the official line is 'no bad foods'?
And it's not necessary to eat five times your fat minimum either but you always goes over that be too....
Hmm. There is is no minimum for carbohydrate consumption so that would put it at zero. If one is eating 40-50% of their calories in carbs... Well, that's more than five times over the minimum. Not necessary I guess?
about as necessary as blowing at your fat minimum by 50%….
I just find it amusing that the keto/LC crew argues that carbs are not necessary, OK, maybe not, but it is not necessary to blow out your fat minimum by 50% either, but you all love to gloss over that point….
oh and see @stevencloser response….
I don't think I glossed over it. I must keep carbs very low to manage my insulin resistance. I must also keep protein moderate to manage said stubborn insulin resistance (as you know, protein raises insuli and BG too). What is left? Air? Breatharian lifestyle isn't going to cut it for me.
For me, it is "necessary to blow out fat minimum by 50%" or I'll be awfully hungry. I'm not sure why eating higher fat would be bothersome for you.
Do you have any peer reviewed research on the extreme endurance athletes? From what I've seen it seems that they do ok in the steady state, which fat can keep up with, but suck wind in the higher power output aspects like final push where you really need carbohydrates since fat doesn't oxidize quickly enough.
No. I've never looked for any. Just personal accounts and discussions.
Peter Attia experimenetd on himself and had fairly clear results. He is not an extreme endurance athlete though. http://eatingacademy.com/how-a-low-carb-diet-affected-my-athletic-performance
Ben Greefield did similar things. again, he is sort of an extreme endurance athlete. I know he does triathalons. http://www.bengreenfieldfitness.com/2014/05/how-much-fat-can-you-burn-2/
Athletes in ketosis will often add some carbs right before an event that requires a short all out burst of energy. they still are in ketosis and find glucose performance enhancing for those short energy bursts.... from what I understand.
That's the crux of the problem for me on athletic performance, it's all just anecdotal and conjecture right now. I don't know of any of the elites being in keto, but if there are I would be interested to hear of this. It doesn't seem likely that a keto endurance athlete can keep up with elites but who knows. I just don't see them being able to hold up on when it gets to the sprinting due to the slower oxidation rate of fat versus carbs, you just have limits based on chemistry you can't overcome, but I'm not sure where these constraints will show without the proper data -- I'm just speculating.
Exactly! Why would they want to jeopardize their hard work with no fuel to win.
Edited: Cuz grammer does not come easy for me0 -
If we are going to start comparing diets, you can look at the top competitors in every sport, I would guess you wouldn't find any that are actually low carb during their season. But would love to see some research, if anyone has any, comparing mod to high carb vs low to keto in sports.0
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toad_allyinlove wrote: »Low carb is it fact or fiction? Fad or good? What do you guys think? Pro's or con's?
What you're looking for is called "Ketogenics", low-carb high-fat. It's a lifestyle and a complete change to mainstream eating misconceptions.
Carbohydrates are just sugars, sugars which need insulin to be processed, insulin which spikes when you eat carbs and stops the fat burning process.
Do the research, learn about the benefits of eliminating sugar from your diet, eliminating carbs from your diet, and adding filling and delicious fats and proteins to it.
Is it fact? Yes, Ketogenics is studied pretty extensively, with many scientific books written about it. The studies done around low-carb diets are incredibly telling.
Is it long-term sustainable? Absolutely, becoming "Keto-adapted" transforms how your body processes carbs and fats, and changes your metabolism significantly for the better.
Is it a fad? Nope, the traction Ketogenics is gaining for weight loss, as well as athletic performance, is tremendous. I think it will be the dominant eating diet in the next 10 years, and low-fat high-sugar high-carb will be considered one of the most harmful in human diet eating history.
What do I think? Everyone should give Ketogenics at least a legitimate 3 month shot. No carbs for 3 months. It's a challenge a lot of people can't accomplish. Why? It separates those who are dedicated to changing their body, and those who buy Fitbits then eat pancakes, burgers, and drink beer all weekend long.
Some of the cons: Bread is gone, that's tragic for a bread lover like myself. Lettuce is a poor sandwich substitute for real bread. Another con is how obsessed with carb counting you become, and even things with moderate amounts of carbs (20g) becomes entirely too much i.e. Fruit, yogurt, rice cakes
If you can overcome the first month of hurdles, change your mindset and outlook on what food is and what it means in your life, Ketogenics will absolutely lead to weight loss, fitness love, and eventually massive physical athletic benefits.
Have you ever heard of the Krebs cycle? You do realize your body will find a way to get the energy it needs because it can turn protein and fat , through some processes, into energy? The reason people lose weight successfully eliminating carbs is because they're eliminating a huge calorie source thus creating a deficit where the body is forced to burn fat to meet the body's energy needs. The exact same thing that occurs with simply having a calorie deficit no matter which Macro once reduces, or a combo of the 3.0 -
Micronutrients are found in foods that are not carb heavy too. Micronutrient intake is largely a non issue for any well planned diet regardless of the type including low carb, Zone, vegetarian.
Any well-planned diet, yes, but I've looked at plenty of super low carb diets here after the person in question promoted their specific diet to others, and they looked to be far short of some basic micros on a regular basis.And no, bonking is less of an issue for someone who is adapted to a ketogenic state. Extreme endurance athletes seem to benefit from very low carb diets for that very reason. Even if it was true that fat is a less efficient fuel, and it could be for those not yet keto adapted, it would be a non-issue for most low carb people including me.
Not true at all. Intense exercise can't be fueled without carbs, and if you look even at extreme endurance athletes who are promoted as low carb examples, they tend to eat lots of carbs when racing.0
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