Interesting Studies: Probably low carb related in one way or another
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midwesterner85 wrote: »AlabasterVerve wrote: »
Another 10 years and maybe doctors and the public will start to accept this.
Is it reasonable to think that a response that mainly occurs in healthy people is a cause of disease?
Not a study, but my own experience is that I had low HDL levels when I was very overweight - low to the extent of taking Simvastatin and still seeing levels in the 30's. As I lost weight, that didn't change... until I started eating low carb. At that point, HDL progressively improved to where I no longer take Simvastatin and my last HDL test was in the 80's.
In the meantime, after going low carb, LDL decreased dramatically at first. The lowest was down to 17! Now that I'm only eating meat, it has risen to 120's and my dr. is concerned this is too high... despite that HDL is 80's on the same day. I'm not quite the healthiest I've ever been, but pretty dang close. So I figure it is not worth worrying about unless it gets much higher than that.
I was a bit different.. i saw a doubling of my HDL after losing 50 lbs.. my triglycerides went from 220 to 40 but my LDL barely changed. It went from 120 to 100.. but for me that is genetics. Currently seeing is getting real lean helps and i am cycling keto and high carb (UD2), as well as incorporating more fish.0 -
Dog food with legumes tied to pet heart disease: U.S. Food and Drug Administration
NEW YORK – Pet food containing peas, lentils, other legumes and potatoes might be causing heart disease in dogs, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration said in a warning to pet owners.
The FDA said Thursday that it has received “highly unusual” reports about canine dilated cardiomyopathy, which can cause an enlarged, weakened heart and eventual heart failure in dogs. The cases occurred in breeds — such as golden and Labrador retrievers, a whippet, a Shih Tzu, a bulldog and miniature schnauzers — that aren’t genetically prone to the disease, but that ate certain pet foods containing legumes or potatoes as their main ingredients.
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The fat content was 50%, which is much higher than the 10% in the average modern diet.
Media: Iceman's last meal was high-fat, high-calorie feast
Unexpectedly, there is a high proportion of fat in the diet. The distribution of triglycerides and their constituting fatty acids is consistent with the consumption of ibex muscle and adipose tissues. The extreme alpine environment in which the Iceman lived and where he have been found (3,210 m above sea level) is particularly challenging for the human physiology and requires optimal nutrient supply to avoid rapid starvation and energy loss [31]. Therefore, the Iceman seemed to have been fully aware that fat displays an excellent energy source.
On the other hand, the intake of animal adipose tissue fat has a strong correlation with increased risk of coronary artery disease [32]. A high saturated fats diet raises cholesterol levels in the blood, which in turn can lead to atherosclerosis. Importantly, computed tomography scans of the Iceman showed major calcifications in arteria and the aorta indicating an already advanced atherosclerotic disease state [33]. Both his high-fat diet and his genetic predisposition for cardiovascular disease [34] could have significantly contributed to the development of the arterial calcifications.
Source: The Iceman’s Last Meal Consisted of Fat, Wild Meat, and Cereals0 -
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Diabetic-level glucose spikes seen in healthy people
“We saw that some folks who think they’re healthy actually are misregulating glucose — sometimes at the same severity of people with diabetes — and they have no idea,” Snyder said.
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The trio of tests yielded some fairly startling results: After eating one or more of the meals, more than half of the group — whose prior blood sugar tests showed that they were “healthy” — spiked at the same levels as those of people who were prediabetic or diabetic.
What’s more, nearly everyone spiked after eating the cereal.
Media
Re: Glucotypes reveal new patterns of glucose dysregulation1 -
AlabasterVerve wrote: »Diabetic-level glucose spikes seen in healthy people
“We saw that some folks who think they’re healthy actually are misregulating glucose — sometimes at the same severity of people with diabetes — and they have no idea,” Snyder said.
...
The trio of tests yielded some fairly startling results: After eating one or more of the meals, more than half of the group — whose prior blood sugar tests showed that they were “healthy” — spiked at the same levels as those of people who were prediabetic or diabetic.
What’s more, nearly everyone spiked after eating the cereal.
Media
Re: Glucotypes reveal new patterns of glucose dysregulation
This is not surprising. I recall reading a study a few years ago (I don't have the study info, but it was done in Atlanta IIRC) where they fed type 1 diabetics and non-diabetics oatmeal and tracked the response of injected insulin vs. a natural insulin release. As expected, the study showed that diabetics spend more time with a post-prandial spike when insulin is taken just before eating. While this wasn't the point of the study, I remember noticing the data for the non-diabetic control group showed average glucose peaked at about 180 mg/dl at about 1 hr. post-meal (the diabetic group averaged about 200 mg/dl peak around the same time). As a type 1 diabetic who knows injected insulin takes more time to work than it takes for carbs... even 'complex' carbs like oatmeal where some 'experts' tell us the glycemic index makes them ok, but I know the glycemic index makes so little difference that it is barely even worth mentioning. I had expected that the delay for injected insulin was due to travel through subcutaneous fluid. It was eye-opening that non-diabetics experience almost as significant of a BG spike despite making their own insulin and releasing it in a way that should react more quickly.
As a type 1, BG management is so much easier by avoiding carbs. If I eat 3 meals per day (no snacks) with carbs and a 2 hr. postprandial elevated BG, that is 6 hrs. (25% of the day!) with higher than ideal BG. Add 1 or 2 snacks with carbs and that is even worse. Of course that is going to affect me long-term. If a non-diabetic even has 1.5 hrs. of high BG every time they eat grains, and if they eat cereal or bread (muffin, bagel, donut) for breakfast and bread (including sandwich or burger bun) for lunch and dinner, their BG is still elevated 4.5 hrs. per day (more than 1/6 of the day) before any snacks.1 -
AlabasterVerve wrote: »
I enjoyed this, but I think Hall is pretty biased against LCHF too, despite what he claims.AlabasterVerve wrote: »Diabetic-level glucose spikes seen in healthy people
“We saw that some folks who think they’re healthy actually are misregulating glucose — sometimes at the same severity of people with diabetes — and they have no idea,” Snyder said.
...
The trio of tests yielded some fairly startling results: After eating one or more of the meals, more than half of the group — whose prior blood sugar tests showed that they were “healthy” — spiked at the same levels as those of people who were prediabetic or diabetic.
What’s more, nearly everyone spiked after eating the cereal.
Media
Re: Glucotypes reveal new patterns of glucose dysregulation
I think most people would be shocked if they actually tested their BG throughout the day.
Thanks again for sharing this stuff.2 -
I enjoyed this, but I think Hall is pretty biased against LCHF too, despite what he claims.
I agree that he's biased but I still think he's at least attempting proper science and the research he's doing is adding to the knowledge base. Which can't be said for most - the crap Harvard is churning out is disgraceful.
New from Taubes:
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A carbohydrate-reduced high-protein diet acutely decreases postprandial and diurnal glucose excursions in type 2 diabetes patients.
A moderate reduction in carbohydrate with an increase in fat and protein in the diet, compared with an energy-matched CD diet, greatly reduced postprandial glucose excursions and resulted in increased satiety in patients with well-controlled T2DM.
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Gary Taubes didn't seem to think so when he and his organization (NuSI) funded Hall's study on the insulin theory of obesity.I enjoyed this, but I think Hall is pretty biased against LCHF too, despite what he claims.
Until the study didn't return the results Taubes wanted to see, and disproved rather than proved his pet theory. Then he flipped his *kitten* and all of a sudden Hall was Public Enemy Number 1.
I don't see any inherent bias from Hall. Keto people do because his facts don't fit their theory, therefore he simply must be biased.5 -
Updates:
The Struggles of a $40 Million Nutrition Science Crusade
Update: Corrections appended, 7/31/2018, 9:53 pm EDT
This story has been updated to clarify the nature of Gary Taubes' trip, the intentions and motivations of NuSI and Taubes, the organization’s current leadership and financial status, and Taubes’ relationship with a news outlet. Language has also been changed to clarify the relationship between NuSI and the researchers who ran its studies, the chronology of NuSI meetings and administrative changes, the precise nature of the carbohydrate/insulin hypothesis, and to more clearly describe study designs, methodologies, and findings. The updated story also includes comment from Taubes on researchers’ allegations that NuSI infringed on their academic freedom and information about other studies funded by the Laura and John Arnold Foundation.AlabasterVerve wrote: »Re: Gary Taubes & Peter Attia's NuSi
The Collapse of a $40 Million Nutrition Science Crusade
by Megan Molteni
It could just be the jet lag, or it could be the mental burden of having to sing for his supper, but Taubes sounds tired. “I say this to my wife all the time: ‘Maybe I’m a quack.’ All quacks are sure they’re right. Isn’t that the defining characteristic of a quack? But the fact is that we funded four studies and the three randomized trials were highly successful operationally. One of these has been published in a top journal with interesting results and I remain hopeful that we will soon see if the last two studies will move some needles. Our convictions have gotten us this far, and despite some disappointments these questions still seem vitally important to test.”
Article
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Gary Taubes didn't seem to think so when he and his organization (NuSI) funded Hall's study on the insulin theory of obesity.I enjoyed this, but I think Hall is pretty biased against LCHF too, despite what he claims.
Until the study didn't return the results Taubes wanted to see, and disproved rather than proved his pet theory. Then he flipped his *kitten* and all of a sudden Hall was Public Enemy Number 1.
I don't see any inherent bias from Hall. Keto people do because his facts don't fit their theory, therefore he simply must be biased.
I disagree. From what I've read, Hall was hired in part because he was known to disagree with Taubes. It even states that in the above link.
I stopped fully trusting how Hall presented his work when he changed his interpretation of the results and chose to ignore sone of his results, like that of doubly labeled water. I'm not saying he falsifies his results or his science is bad, just that he has a bias. JMO
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AlabasterVerve wrote: »
I am struggling to understand how this is still a thing. It seems fairly commom sense that if your body is insulin resistant, than reducing carbs would reduce that impact of insulin and improve the condition.1 -
Gary Taubes didn't seem to think so when he and his organization (NuSI) funded Hall's study on the insulin theory of obesity.I enjoyed this, but I think Hall is pretty biased against LCHF too, despite what he claims.
Until the study didn't return the results Taubes wanted to see, and disproved rather than proved his pet theory. Then he flipped his *kitten* and all of a sudden Hall was Public Enemy Number 1.
I don't see any inherent bias from Hall. Keto people do because his facts don't fit their theory, therefore he simply must be biased.
I disagree. From what I've read, Hall was hired in part because he was known to disagree with Taubes. It even states that in the above link.
I stopped fully trusting how Hall presented his work when he changed his interpretation of the results and chose to ignore sone of his results, like that of doubly labeled water. I'm not saying he falsifies his results or his science is bad, just that he has a bias. JMO
No person, including scientist, are without bias. That is human nature. But I'd certainly put more stock in a researcher than a journalist or other non scientist. Heck, even the Faster study demonstrated a bias (carb oxidation vs fat oxidation). That is the importance of meta analyses from other sources of people not associated with the original author.
Eta: his findings are consistent with other authors: Aizona State publish long term results of keto vs high carb and there where no statistical difference in the groups.2 -
AlabasterVerve wrote: »
I am struggling to understand how this is still a thing. It seems fairly commom sense that if your body is insulin resistant, than reducing carbs would reduce that impact of insulin and improve the condition.
Continued belief in the lipid hypothesis (diabetics are at increased risk for heart disease) and the plants-are-good-more-is-better meat-is-bad-less-is-better bias doesn't help. There's also push back from industry who go to great lengths to cloud the literature. It's criminal.3 -
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First controlled feeding trial of the typical diet recommended for good health...
A randomized controlled-feeding trial based on the Dietary Guidelines for Americans on cardiometabolic health indexes
The 2010 Dietary Guidelines for Americans (DGA) recommend nutrient needs be met by increasing fruit, vegetable, and whole-grain intake with the use of low-fat or fat-free dairy products and by reducing sodium, solid fats, and added sugars. However, the DGA, as a dietary pattern, have not been tested in an intervention trial.
Conclusions
The consumption of a DGA dietary pattern for 8 wk without weight loss reduced systolic blood pressure. There were no differences between the DGA and typical American diet (TAD) diets in fasting insulin, glucose, indexes of insulin resistance, or fasting lipids. This trial was registered at www.clinicaltrials.gov as NCT02298725.
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Efficacy of ketogenic diet on body composition during resistance training in trained men: a randomized controlled trial
Our results suggest that a KD might be an alternative dietary approach to decrease fat mass and visceral adipose tissue without decreasing lean body mass; however, it might not be useful to increase muscle mass during positive energy balance in men undergoing RT for 8 weeks.
Source
Critique (Blog): The Ketogenic Diet & Your Gains: Study Shows Body Comp. Benefits (Fat ↓), but Decreased Muscle Gains, However...
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AlabasterVerve wrote: »Efficacy of ketogenic diet on body composition during resistance training in trained men: a randomized controlled trial
Our results suggest that a KD might be an alternative dietary approach to decrease fat mass and visceral adipose tissue without decreasing lean body mass; however, it might not be useful to increase muscle mass during positive energy balance in men undergoing RT for 8 weeks.
Source
Critique (Blog): The Ketogenic Diet & Your Gains: Study Shows Body Comp. Benefits (Fat ↓), but Decreased Muscle Gains, However...
Really interesting. Thanks for posting this.
Once again I wish researchers had used fat adapted athletes who had been eating ketogenic for at least 2-3 months already so the DXA scans would not have been potentially affected by lowered glycogen stores. Maybe then we could truly see if lean mass was negatively affected by a KD. As it is, we can't really tell.
It would have been nice if caloric intake was more guaranteed. Did they actually eat their 39 kcal/kg body weight or did the ketogenic dieters eat less? If they did eat their hyper caloric amounts, then there was some magic in both groups - just more in the KD group.0 -
AlabasterVerve wrote: »Efficacy of ketogenic diet on body composition during resistance training in trained men: a randomized controlled trial
Our results suggest that a KD might be an alternative dietary approach to decrease fat mass and visceral adipose tissue without decreasing lean body mass; however, it might not be useful to increase muscle mass during positive energy balance in men undergoing RT for 8 weeks.
Source
Critique (Blog): The Ketogenic Diet & Your Gains: Study Shows Body Comp. Benefits (Fat ↓), but Decreased Muscle Gains, However...
Really interesting. Thanks for posting this.
Once again I wish researchers had used fat adapted athletes who had been eating ketogenic for at least 2-3 months already so the DXA scans would not have been potentially affected by lowered glycogen stores. Maybe then we could truly see if lean mass was negatively affected by a KD. As it is, we can't really tell.
It would have been nice if caloric intake was more guaranteed. Did they actually eat their 39 kcal/kg body weight or did the ketogenic dieters eat less? If they did eat their hyper caloric amounts, then there was some magic in both groups - just more in the KD group.
Even so, performance is hindered with keto, which is why CKD is beneficial. If performance is hindered, than volume wont go up as much.
But i do agree that it would be interesting to see if there is a difference with fat adapted individuals.2 -
AlabasterVerve wrote: »Efficacy of ketogenic diet on body composition during resistance training in trained men: a randomized controlled trial
Our results suggest that a KD might be an alternative dietary approach to decrease fat mass and visceral adipose tissue without decreasing lean body mass; however, it might not be useful to increase muscle mass during positive energy balance in men undergoing RT for 8 weeks.
Source
Critique (Blog): The Ketogenic Diet & Your Gains: Study Shows Body Comp. Benefits (Fat ↓), but Decreased Muscle Gains, However...
Really interesting. Thanks for posting this.
Once again I wish researchers had used fat adapted athletes who had been eating ketogenic for at least 2-3 months already so the DXA scans would not have been potentially affected by lowered glycogen stores. Maybe then we could truly see if lean mass was negatively affected by a KD. As it is, we can't really tell.
It would have been nice if caloric intake was more guaranteed. Did they actually eat their 39 kcal/kg body weight or did the ketogenic dieters eat less? If they did eat their hyper caloric amounts, then there was some magic in both groups - just more in the KD group.
Even so, performance is hindered with keto, which is why CKD is beneficial. If performance is hindered, than volume wont go up as much.
But i do agree that it would be interesting to see if there is a difference with fat adapted individuals.
Before fat adaptation I would agree that performance is hindered, as to afterwards, I find it doubtful since lack of glycogen seems to be the cause behind poor performance and fat adapted individuals don't appear to lack glycogen in the muscles.
Do you gave anything proving that? At this point I think it is still just theoretical. I don't doubt that CKD works, but I'd like to see the evidence that it is needed. KWIM?0 -
AlabasterVerve wrote: »Efficacy of ketogenic diet on body composition during resistance training in trained men: a randomized controlled trial
Our results suggest that a KD might be an alternative dietary approach to decrease fat mass and visceral adipose tissue without decreasing lean body mass; however, it might not be useful to increase muscle mass during positive energy balance in men undergoing RT for 8 weeks.
Source
Critique (Blog): The Ketogenic Diet & Your Gains: Study Shows Body Comp. Benefits (Fat ↓), but Decreased Muscle Gains, However...
Really interesting. Thanks for posting this.
Once again I wish researchers had used fat adapted athletes who had been eating ketogenic for at least 2-3 months already so the DXA scans would not have been potentially affected by lowered glycogen stores. Maybe then we could truly see if lean mass was negatively affected by a KD. As it is, we can't really tell.
It would have been nice if caloric intake was more guaranteed. Did they actually eat their 39 kcal/kg body weight or did the ketogenic dieters eat less? If they did eat their hyper caloric amounts, then there was some magic in both groups - just more in the KD group.
Even so, performance is hindered with keto, which is why CKD is beneficial. If performance is hindered, than volume wont go up as much.
But i do agree that it would be interesting to see if there is a difference with fat adapted individuals.
Before fat adaptation I would agree that performance is hindered, as to afterwards, I find it doubtful since lack of glycogen seems to be the cause behind poor performance and fat adapted individuals don't appear to lack glycogen in the muscles.
Do you gave anything proving that? At this point I think it is still just theoretical. I don't doubt that CKD works, but I'd like to see the evidence that it is needed. KWIM?
Most of it is experience in the gym, so largely anecdotal. But if you take any keto lifter, and carb load them, they will see huge increases in their lifts; several of the keto lifters in my gym have noticed this as well. The is a pretty known phenomenon with post competition body builders. I haven't been fat adapted but my best workouts are post carb loading/glycogen replenishment days.
Unfortunately, in the absence of evidence, we do have to rely on experience and anecdotal evidence until someone is willing to fund such an experiment.
I believe in that article there is an experiment (wilson et al, IIRC) that carb loaded their ketogenic lifters before dexa scans, which is a trick to show increases in lean body mass.1
This discussion has been closed.
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