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Are all calories the same??
Replies
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Christine_72 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »I believe at SparkPeople the mods give nutrition advice and are helpful in squelching bad information. That seems like a good idea to me. I always like it when you or Niner or usmcmp give good advice and argue against some of the bad information that can be pervasive here and is, I think, really damaging.
Apparently that is not part of the moderators' responsibilities for this site. I, for one, see wisdom in that in that the function of a moderator in general is to ensure that protocol is followed. If someone is not breaking rules, then the moderators (performing their moderator function) should stay out of it. Think of it this way:
What if Gale was a moderator? Would you still be calling for his help in "squelching bad information"?
I would hope that spreading good and accurate information would be significant to the choice of who becomes a moderator.
Mods have many more roles than this... Just because they are moderators does not automatically mean they know everything about science and nutrition, nor is it their job to squelch every opinion or scientific advice that some people happen to disagree with that crosses the boards. They have enough pressure placed upon them without lumping this on them as well!
As this is a fitness and nutrition website, it stand to reason that they should have a good working knowledge to qualify for a moderator position. The rules and regs and how to apply them impartially can be taught.
If I go to a hardware store, I expect the people working there to have a working knowledge of the store inventory should I require assistance.
There's far too many different ways of eating, macro splits etc etc etc etc for everyone to agree. Just because one person disagrees with another's way does not automatically make either of them wrong or unscientific or whatever.lemurcat12 wrote: »I think I'm not supposed to talk about this here, so no further comment, tough as it is.
Yeah, me neither0 -
For me, 5% carbs would be about 21 carbs, so the cauliflower, radicchio, and blueberries I had at breakfast would have put me over.0
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I love carbs. I need carbs. That is all.0
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Yeah, it may be true that a lot of diets with a carb consumption that low may not even have all carbs comprised of fruits and vegetables. But that amount I mentioned would be applicable to those with calorie requirements around 2500-3000, which would include some females.ForecasterJason wrote: »
That would depend on one's maintenance level and specific food choices. For a lot of men on here, 5% of total calories would mean about 30-35g of carbs. That would allow for multiple servings of some vegetables (like broccoli, spinach, carrots) along with a couple servings of berries.As someone who has eaten moderate low carb and extreme low carb....I doubt anyone eating 5% carbs is eating much if any vegetables, let alone any fruit. Maybe I'm wrong though.
Oh for MEN huh? Other foods that people eat all tend to have residual carbs, so for someone who a lot of experience with low carbs dieting...that has not been my experience that a diet with 5% carbs includes much if any vegetables. I'd ask Gale, but I think we've been told we are not allowed....so I will continue to share my carb experience and how limiting it is on those fronts.
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ForecasterJason wrote: »
Yeah, it may be true that a lot of diets with a carb consumption that low may not even have all carbs comprised of fruits and vegetables. But that amount I mentioned would be applicable to those with calorie requirements around 2500-3000, which would include some females.ForecasterJason wrote: »
That would depend on one's maintenance level and specific food choices. For a lot of men on here, 5% of total calories would mean about 30-35g of carbs. That would allow for multiple servings of some vegetables (like broccoli, spinach, carrots) along with a couple servings of berries.As someone who has eaten moderate low carb and extreme low carb....I doubt anyone eating 5% carbs is eating much if any vegetables, let alone any fruit. Maybe I'm wrong though.
Oh for MEN huh? Other foods that people eat all tend to have residual carbs, so for someone who a lot of experience with low carbs dieting...that has not been my experience that a diet with 5% carbs includes much if any vegetables. I'd ask Gale, but I think we've been told we are not allowed....so I will continue to share my carb experience and how limiting it is on those fronts.
That's my maintenance range. What you said wasn't my experience with low carb. I can't ask about anyone else's here, so I will just share my carb experience at a 5% level. If it included any fruits and veggies, it was slim pickings. I know some low carbers that never eat a single one, but I can't speak to their experience.
Im typically under 50 grams and often under 20. I eat salads and mixed veggies (usually something with broccoli) 1-3 times a week.0 -
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ForecasterJason wrote: »
Yeah, it may be true that a lot of diets with a carb consumption that low may not even have all carbs comprised of fruits and vegetables. But that amount I mentioned would be applicable to those with calorie requirements around 2500-3000, which would include some females.ForecasterJason wrote: »
That would depend on one's maintenance level and specific food choices. For a lot of men on here, 5% of total calories would mean about 30-35g of carbs. That would allow for multiple servings of some vegetables (like broccoli, spinach, carrots) along with a couple servings of berries.As someone who has eaten moderate low carb and extreme low carb....I doubt anyone eating 5% carbs is eating much if any vegetables, let alone any fruit. Maybe I'm wrong though.
Oh for MEN huh? Other foods that people eat all tend to have residual carbs, so for someone who a lot of experience with low carbs dieting...that has not been my experience that a diet with 5% carbs includes much if any vegetables. I'd ask Gale, but I think we've been told we are not allowed....so I will continue to share my carb experience and how limiting it is on those fronts.
That's my maintenance range. What you said wasn't my experience with low carb. I can't ask about anyone else's here, so I will just share my carb experience at a 5% level. If it included any fruits and veggies, it was slim pickings. I know some low carbers that never eat a single one, but I can't speak to their experience.
Im typically under 50 grams and often under 20. I eat salads and mixed veggies (usually something with broccoli) 1-3 times a week.
1 to 3 times A WEEK basically makes my point. That is a diet basically devoid of veggies as is typical with most low carb keto dieters.
You say that like it's a bad thing
I'm not big on veggies, and I don't really have a stake in the argument, but I do want to point out that if I can do it 1 day and stay within my limits, I could certainly do it every day if I were so inclined.
I just wanted to reply to your post since you expressed a desire to ask a low carb dieter about it.0 -
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NP.ForecasterJason wrote: »
Yeah, it may be true that a lot of diets with a carb consumption that low may not even have all carbs comprised of fruits and vegetables. But that amount I mentioned would be applicable to those with calorie requirements around 2500-3000, which would include some females.ForecasterJason wrote: »
That would depend on one's maintenance level and specific food choices. For a lot of men on here, 5% of total calories would mean about 30-35g of carbs. That would allow for multiple servings of some vegetables (like broccoli, spinach, carrots) along with a couple servings of berries.As someone who has eaten moderate low carb and extreme low carb....I doubt anyone eating 5% carbs is eating much if any vegetables, let alone any fruit. Maybe I'm wrong though.
Oh for MEN huh? Other foods that people eat all tend to have residual carbs, so for someone who a lot of experience with low carbs dieting...that has not been my experience that a diet with 5% carbs includes much if any vegetables. I'd ask Gale, but I think we've been told we are not allowed....so I will continue to share my carb experience and how limiting it is on those fronts.
That's my maintenance range. What you said wasn't my experience with low carb. I can't ask about anyone else's here, so I will just share my carb experience at a 5% level. If it included any fruits and veggies, it was slim pickings. I know some low carbers that never eat a single one, but I can't speak to their experience.
Im typically under 50 grams and often under 20. I eat salads and mixed veggies (usually something with broccoli) 1-3 times a week.
1 to 3 times A WEEK basically makes my point. That is a diet basically devoid of veggies as is typical with most low carb keto dieters.
You say that like it's a bad thing
I say it like it is a fact. People can make whatever dietary choices they want. Not one I would make, but plays out what I was saying above of those who eat that level of low carb dieting. Thanks for your openness and honesty.
BTW, I must've been editing while you were replying. I would also point out that people who do tend to go that low on carbs probably don't have much of an affinity for veggies to begin with. Honestly, I prolly eat more veggies now than before I started because I would just had pasta or rice instead.
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NP.ForecasterJason wrote: »
Yeah, it may be true that a lot of diets with a carb consumption that low may not even have all carbs comprised of fruits and vegetables. But that amount I mentioned would be applicable to those with calorie requirements around 2500-3000, which would include some females.ForecasterJason wrote: »
That would depend on one's maintenance level and specific food choices. For a lot of men on here, 5% of total calories would mean about 30-35g of carbs. That would allow for multiple servings of some vegetables (like broccoli, spinach, carrots) along with a couple servings of berries.As someone who has eaten moderate low carb and extreme low carb....I doubt anyone eating 5% carbs is eating much if any vegetables, let alone any fruit. Maybe I'm wrong though.
Oh for MEN huh? Other foods that people eat all tend to have residual carbs, so for someone who a lot of experience with low carbs dieting...that has not been my experience that a diet with 5% carbs includes much if any vegetables. I'd ask Gale, but I think we've been told we are not allowed....so I will continue to share my carb experience and how limiting it is on those fronts.
That's my maintenance range. What you said wasn't my experience with low carb. I can't ask about anyone else's here, so I will just share my carb experience at a 5% level. If it included any fruits and veggies, it was slim pickings. I know some low carbers that never eat a single one, but I can't speak to their experience.
Im typically under 50 grams and often under 20. I eat salads and mixed veggies (usually something with broccoli) 1-3 times a week.
1 to 3 times A WEEK basically makes my point. That is a diet basically devoid of veggies as is typical with most low carb keto dieters.
You say that like it's a bad thing
I say it like it is a fact. People can make whatever dietary choices they want. Not one I would make, but plays out what I was saying above of those who eat that level of low carb dieting. Thanks for your openness and honesty.
BTW, I must've been editing while you were replying. I would also point out that people who do tend to go that low on carbs probably don't have much of an affinity for veggies to begin with. Honestly, I prolly eat more veggies now than before I started because I would just had pasta or rice instead.
Very true. I am very low carb yet I usually eat more vegetables than my husband, who is moderate to high carb. The only exception would be days when we have potatoes. He does tend to eat more fruit than me but they are high sugar fruits like bananas and raisins which I am happy to skip.
Many people seem to forget that low carb is not zero carb. We aren't usually carnivores, although I am seeing the benefits of that woe more and more as time goes by...
Anyways, low carb usually means sugar and grains were dropped, and not all plant products. Besides, it would be tougher to get all of my healthy saturated fats without some coconut oil.
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lemurcat12 wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
That would depend on one's maintenance level and specific food choices. For a lot of men on here, 5% of total calories would mean about 30-35g of carbs. That would allow for multiple servings of some vegetables (like broccoli, spinach, carrots) along with a couple servings of berries.As someone who has eaten moderate low carb and extreme low carb....I doubt anyone eating 5% carbs is eating much if any vegetables, let alone any fruit. Maybe I'm wrong though.
I had 28 carbs just from vegetables (including tomatoes, though) for dinner yesterday. 13 carbs from vegetables at breakfast today, plus 10 more from blueberries. 30-35 for a full day seems low to me, and that assumes no other carb source.
Anyway, my comment about him being anti fruits and veg is because of specific comments elsewhere which I guess should not be discussed in this thread.
Keep in mind that many low carbers look at NET calories/grams when it comes to veggies and no everyone is as extreme in the spectrum (at 50g, you can get several servings of veggies).0 -
Yeah, I know. I'm not anti keto (again -- I say all the time that like most other diets it can be done healthfully or not). It would require me to limit vegetables and fruits, which seems crazy to me so is something I would not do (I don't actually eat a huge amount of fruit, but some, and I like to eat lots of vegetables), and of course other carbs I think improve my diet, so it wouldn't work for me, but I say all the time it works well for some. What I get annoyed by are claims that carbs are inherently unhealthy or that there's some virtue or benefit to keeping carbs (including veg) as low as possible, making a virtue out of not eating vegetables. I don't think that's supported by any evidence, quite the contrary. (Not including situations where people have digestive issues making fiber a problem or the like.)
Can't even recall why this is in this thread, though -- I suppose the cancer thing, which Gale has now moved.0 -
As someone who has eaten moderate low carb and extreme low carb....I doubt anyone eating 5% carbs is eating much if any vegetables, let alone any fruit. Maybe I'm wrong though.
5% of 1200 (to take an extreme) is 15 grams of carbs, whereas Atkins Induction is 20g of net carbs.
Firstly let's get the units issue out of the way - what Americans call "Total carbohydrates" aren't what most low carb dieters are using as a metric, and certainly not those outside of N. America. Fibre isn't included. Europeans measure carbohydrate in food and broccoli (as an example) is 1.1 - 2.5% in UK Govt databases.
So my 15g of carbohydrate example would get me 300g of veg at 5% carbohydrate and there are quite a few veg at 5% or less. So I think you are wrong. Graphic from http://www.dietdoctor.com/lchf#advice
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As someone who has eaten moderate low carb and extreme low carb....I doubt anyone eating 5% carbs is eating much if any vegetables, let alone any fruit. Maybe I'm wrong though.
5% of 1200 (to take an extreme) is 15 grams of carbs, whereas Atkins Induction is 20g of net carbs.
Firstly let's get the units issue out of the way - what Americans call "Total carbohydrates" aren't what most low carb dieters are using as a metric, and certainly not those outside of N. America. Fibre isn't included. Europeans measure carbohydrate in food and broccoli (as an example) is 1.1 - 2.5% in UK Govt databases.
So my 15g of carbohydrate example would get me 300g of veg at 5% carbohydrate and there are quite a few veg at 5% or less. So I think you are wrong. Graphic from http://www.dietdoctor.com/lchf#advice
So, are you saying your diet includes a lot of veggies?0 -
tincanonastring wrote: »
So, are you saying your diet includes a lot of veggies?
Personally I have two fairly large servings of veg with dinner almost every night. "A lot" is subjective but I would be in the upper quartile of UK vegetable consumers.
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tincanonastring wrote: »
So, are you saying your diet includes a lot of veggies?
Personally I have two fairly large servings of veg with dinner almost every night. "A lot" is subjective but I would be in the upper quartile of UK vegetable consumers.
But you said 300g of veg would get you to the 5% carb range. 2 servings of vegetables isn't going to be 300g. For example, your kale on Saturday was only 160g. Doesn't that support what @shell1005 is saying about the severe restriction of carbs leading to minimal vegetable consumption? For that matter, since when is 2 servings of vegetables a day considered sufficient?0 -
2 servings is 160 grams (WHO) so you can do 5-a-day on Atkins induction at 20g with 400g of 5g/100g veg. The median veg consumption in the US and UK is well below that.
She actually said " doubt anyone eating 5% carbs is eating much if any vegetables".
I don't really understand your point, 15 grams of carbs can be had from 500g of veg at 3g/100g or 300g at 5g/100g and so on. I typically only log things I'm interested in, or cooked myself, or new stuff - or if I'm sharing info with someone. Also I am not personally aiming at 15 grams, it was an illustration.
A lunch with a new dish in it I logged fully :-
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I tried low carb and keto and atkins. I just couldn't do it.
I could lose so fast but I was basically dead headed. Maybe it was just psychological. I like bread and fruit and veg a lot a lot a lot. Maybe I'm emotionally involved with vegetables and fruit and bread somehow, I don't know.
I'm amazed any body can keep on with low to no carbs.
I like fat too, don't get me wrong, and I have nothing against people who can do that carbless eating.0 -
UK Stats: "In 2013 25% of men, 28% of women and 16% of children (aged 5 to 15 years) consumed the
recommended 5 A DAY."
"In 2013 6.8% of adults and 6.7% of children included no fruit or vegetables in their diet" - these aren't all on keto !0 -
Out of curiosity, what is the WHO recommendation for daily veg servings and what is your justification for not meeting it?
My point is that those who seem to defend the fact that you can get sufficient vegetables with 5% carbs, like yourself, don't actually do so. Whether or not one can do it doesn't have much bearing on her statement. The fact that you have to try pretty hard to do it and that we don't see it done very often actually supports her belief.UK Stats: "In 2013 25% of men, 28% of women and 16% of children (aged 5 to 15 years) consumed the
recommended 5 A DAY."
What does that have to do with anything? People don't pay attention to proper nutrition. Is that supposed to be news?0 -
You are assuming my logging is complete, which as I have stated it is not. So your statement is invalid.
I believe the WHO recommend 5 portions = 400 grams a day of "fruitandvegetables". I often hit that. If I choose to eat something else that's not because it's impossible. I would say I typically have 300g with dinner. There's 330g in that lunch above (I had the other half with dinner the night before).
What is the justification for 70% of the population not meeting it despite the 55% carbohydrate dietary advice ?0 -
You are assuming my logging is complete, which as I have stated it is not. So your statement is invalid.
I believe the WHO recommend 5 portions = 400 grams a day of "fruitandvegetables". I often hit that. If I choose to eat something else that's not because it's impossible. I would say I typically have 300g with dinner.
What is the justification for 70% of the population not meeting it despite the 55% carbohydrate dietary advice ?
It would be invalid, yes. I just assumed that someone who was trying to stay below a certain carb limit would want to, I don't know, track that metric. My mistake.
I still don't understand what the general public's poor adherence to proper nutritional guidelines has to do with this conversation. We're talking about people who try to limit carbs to 5%, which does not include the general public. Are you're basically saying it's okay to not meet vegetable serving recommendations because most people don't?0 -
tincanonastring wrote: »Out of curiosity, what is the WHO recommendation for daily veg servings and what is your justification for not meeting it?
My point is that those who seem to defend the fact that you [/b]can get sufficient vegetables [/b]with 5% carbs, like yourself, don't actually do so. Whether or not one can do it doesn't have much bearing on her statement. The fact that you have to try pretty hard to do it and that we don't see it done very often actually supports her belief.UK Stats: "In 2013 25% of men, 28% of women and 16% of children (aged 5 to 15 years) consumed the
recommended 5 A DAY."
What does that have to do with anything? People don't pay attention to proper nutrition. Is that supposed to be news?
There is no minimum or sufficient level of vegetable consumption, beyond government guidelines which aren't based on much science as far as I can tell. They are "recommendations". Technically speaking, eating no vegetables is sufficient and beyond that it is just opinion. Yes, eating fewer veggies may require more thought to get all of your nutrients, but it is far from difficult.
No one has ever suffered from a veggie or carbohydrate deficiency.0 -
tincanonastring wrote: »You are assuming my logging is complete, which as I have stated it is not. So your statement is invalid.
I believe the WHO recommend 5 portions = 400 grams a day of "fruitandvegetables". I often hit that. If I choose to eat something else that's not because it's impossible. I would say I typically have 300g with dinner.
What is the justification for 70% of the population not meeting it despite the 55% carbohydrate dietary advice ?
It would be invalid, yes. I just assumed that someone who was trying to stay below a certain carb limit would want to, I don't know, track that metric. My mistake.
I still don't understand what the general public's poor adherence to proper nutritional guidelines has to do with this conversation. We're talking about people who try to limit carbs to 5%, which does not include the general public. Are you're basically saying it's okay to not meet vegetable serving recommendations because most people don't?
Actually, IIRC, the OP is are all calories the same.. this veggie argument was brought in later.0 -
tincanonastring wrote: »You are assuming my logging is complete, which as I have stated it is not. So your statement is invalid.
I believe the WHO recommend 5 portions = 400 grams a day of "fruitandvegetables". I often hit that. If I choose to eat something else that's not because it's impossible. I would say I typically have 300g with dinner.
What is the justification for 70% of the population not meeting it despite the 55% carbohydrate dietary advice ?
It would be invalid, yes. I just assumed that someone who was trying to stay below a certain carb limit would want to, I don't know, track that metric. My mistake.
I still don't understand what the general public's poor adherence to proper nutritional guidelines has to do with this conversation. We're talking about people who try to limit carbs to 5%, which does not include the general public. Are you're basically saying it's okay to not meet vegetable serving recommendations because most people don't?
Actually, IIRC, the OP is are all calories the same.. this veggie argument was brought in later.
Yep, and we're 7 pages later and conversations have split off into various subtopics, including the one I'm referencing about the need to get calories from varied sources which should include appropriate amounts of vegetables and how difficult that is to do while keeping carbs at 5%.0 -
tincanonastring wrote: »Out of curiosity, what is the WHO recommendation for daily veg servings and what is your justification for not meeting it?
My point is that those who seem to defend the fact that you [/b]can get sufficient vegetables [/b]with 5% carbs, like yourself, don't actually do so. Whether or not one can do it doesn't have much bearing on her statement. The fact that you have to try pretty hard to do it and that we don't see it done very often actually supports her belief.UK Stats: "In 2013 25% of men, 28% of women and 16% of children (aged 5 to 15 years) consumed the
recommended 5 A DAY."
What does that have to do with anything? People don't pay attention to proper nutrition. Is that supposed to be news?
There is no minimum or sufficient level of vegetable consumption, beyond government guidelines which aren't based on much science as far as I can tell. They are "recommendations". Technically speaking, eating no vegetables is sufficient and beyond that it is just opinion. Yes, eating fewer veggies may require more thought to get all of your nutrients, but it is far from difficult.
No one has ever suffered from a veggie or carbohydrate deficiency.
Tell that to 18h century British sailors.0 -
tincanonastring wrote: »tincanonastring wrote: »Out of curiosity, what is the WHO recommendation for daily veg servings and what is your justification for not meeting it?
My point is that those who seem to defend the fact that you [/b]can get sufficient vegetables [/b]with 5% carbs, like yourself, don't actually do so. Whether or not one can do it doesn't have much bearing on her statement. The fact that you have to try pretty hard to do it and that we don't see it done very often actually supports her belief.UK Stats: "In 2013 25% of men, 28% of women and 16% of children (aged 5 to 15 years) consumed the
recommended 5 A DAY."
What does that have to do with anything? People don't pay attention to proper nutrition. Is that supposed to be news?
There is no minimum or sufficient level of vegetable consumption, beyond government guidelines which aren't based on much science as far as I can tell. They are "recommendations". Technically speaking, eating no vegetables is sufficient and beyond that it is just opinion. Yes, eating fewer veggies may require more thought to get all of your nutrients, but it is far from difficult.
No one has ever suffered from a veggie or carbohydrate deficiency.
Tell that to 18h century British sailors.
If you're referencing scurvy, wouldn't it be just as valid to call it a rat deficiency?0 -
tincanonastring wrote: »tincanonastring wrote: »Out of curiosity, what is the WHO recommendation for daily veg servings and what is your justification for not meeting it?
My point is that those who seem to defend the fact that you [/b]can get sufficient vegetables [/b]with 5% carbs, like yourself, don't actually do so. Whether or not one can do it doesn't have much bearing on her statement. The fact that you have to try pretty hard to do it and that we don't see it done very often actually supports her belief.UK Stats: "In 2013 25% of men, 28% of women and 16% of children (aged 5 to 15 years) consumed the
recommended 5 A DAY."
What does that have to do with anything? People don't pay attention to proper nutrition. Is that supposed to be news?
There is no minimum or sufficient level of vegetable consumption, beyond government guidelines which aren't based on much science as far as I can tell. They are "recommendations". Technically speaking, eating no vegetables is sufficient and beyond that it is just opinion. Yes, eating fewer veggies may require more thought to get all of your nutrients, but it is far from difficult.
No one has ever suffered from a veggie or carbohydrate deficiency.
Tell that to 18h century British sailors.
If you're referencing scurvy, wouldn't it be just as valid to call it a rat deficiency?
I don't know, would it? Does a lack of rats cause people to suffer from vitamin-C deficiency?0 -
tincanonastring wrote: »tincanonastring wrote: »Out of curiosity, what is the WHO recommendation for daily veg servings and what is your justification for not meeting it?
My point is that those who seem to defend the fact that you [/b]can get sufficient vegetables [/b]with 5% carbs, like yourself, don't actually do so. Whether or not one can do it doesn't have much bearing on her statement. The fact that you have to try pretty hard to do it and that we don't see it done very often actually supports her belief.UK Stats: "In 2013 25% of men, 28% of women and 16% of children (aged 5 to 15 years) consumed the
recommended 5 A DAY."
What does that have to do with anything? People don't pay attention to proper nutrition. Is that supposed to be news?
There is no minimum or sufficient level of vegetable consumption, beyond government guidelines which aren't based on much science as far as I can tell. They are "recommendations". Technically speaking, eating no vegetables is sufficient and beyond that it is just opinion. Yes, eating fewer veggies may require more thought to get all of your nutrients, but it is far from difficult.
No one has ever suffered from a veggie or carbohydrate deficiency.
Tell that to 18h century British sailors.
If you're referencing scurvy, wouldn't it be just as valid to call it a rat deficiency?
If you're referencing rat hairs on crops, that is actually B-12, based on stories about people from India that followed vegetarian diets that moved to Britain. It probably isn't rat hair, but actually insect parts, including body waste that provides B-12 on crops in those instances, while in Britain the crops have less waste and insect parts to them.
Scurvy is from a lack of Vitamin C, although the 1700s discovery of the phenomena didn't lead to understanding vitamins as the only discovery was that citrus fruits prevented scurvy, not that such fruit contains vitamin C. True discovery of vitamins goes to thiamine discovered in treating BeriBeri, also in sailors.
Basically, don't be a sailor in the 1800s or earlier is good dietary advice.0
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