Welcome to Debate Club! Please be aware that this is a space for respectful debate, and that your ideas will be challenged here. Please remember to critique the argument, not the author.
Discover what's new & improved in the MyFitnessPal app!
We’re dedicated to helping you achieve your health and nutrition goals. And our newest features and updates? They do just that. Learn how we're making tracking your progress easier, faster, and more motivating than ever.

Is dairy good or bad?

Options
191012141530

Replies

  • lemurcat12
    lemurcat12 Posts: 30,886 Member
    Options
    jgnatca wrote: »
    Hate to disturb the dinosaur meme, but ants milk aphids. Because they are smart enough, they are organized, and heck, they deserve it. 100% natural.

    Ants are unnatural creatures, much like many humans. They are no role model!

    Some even marry their step daughters and who knows what else!: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antz

    77g2zsg589rn.jpg
  • BoxerBrawler
    BoxerBrawler Posts: 2,032 Member
    Options
    RLester67 wrote: »
    Carlos_421 wrote: »
    BillMcKay1 wrote: »
    You have to ask yourself why so many millions of people are lactose intolerant. Some people just simply adapt to digesting the sugar enzymes contained in milk out of survival. Others don't. I wonder about things like this... like if something is giving you heart burn would you just take a pill and continue to eat the item? Personally I feel like that's my body telling me to stop. So many people forgot to listen to their bodies thought it's just sad. A lot of people actually let a computer program and application developers tell them when they should eat instead of trying to figure out if their actually hungry or not :smile:

    Rather than asking *myself* why millions of people are lactose intolerant, I asked science, specifically genetics. Interestingly, your musings here aren't entirely incorrect, but more along the line of the hazy explanation my 7 year old would provide when asked about the unique preponderance of lactose tolerance among British, Scandinavian, and other northern European populations ("simply adapt...out of survival"), how it helped them survive a harsh climate and genetically out-compete individuals with less-suitable genetic adaptations ("Others don't."), and the subsequent dispersal of the genome across at least seven millennia, while still leaving "so many millions [who are] lactose intolerant" (aka, two-thirds of the world population). You might find the following to be helpful:

    http://www.nature.com/news/archaeology-the-milk-revolution-1.13471

    And yes, anyone who has dysentary-esque explosions from their posterior should probably listen to their body and stop drinking milk. It leaves more for those of us with Viking-Celt-Teutonic ancestry and a 90% tolerance rate.

    On the question of calves being separated immediately from their mothers, it is actually less stressful for both the cow and calf if the separation happens immediately. The cow rapidly forgets, and the calf doesn't know any different, as opposed to weaning after a month or two, where the stress and grief can last for days for both parties. I am an occasional visitor to both a conventional dairy farm (where the cows enjoy a particularly cushy life, including self-selecting milking, deep sand beds, automated manure clean-up, and fans, massage and misting machines), and a 100% grass-fed raw-milk operation where the cows greatly enjoy being on pasture for most of the year. It doesn't stop most from becoming hamburger at some point in their lives, but we all eventually become hamburger anyway, even the apex predators.

    Sorry about my "fuzzy" science. Please see my last post above for the actual science.

    Less stressful for the calf and the mother? Really? How about let's make it not stressful by not practicing it at all.

    Well, if we don't need the milk or the meat, Why would anyone even bother to feed and raise cows? Taken to the ultimate goal you are advocating for the gradual extinction of the entire species. Seems pretty harsh.

    Uhm, I don't know. I'm pretty sure cows and calfs just happened long before any human intervention.
    This reminds me of the hunters who say they have to kill the deer because we're over-run with them LOL!

    I've never heard the argument that we need to shoot deer because we're overrun with them but I can tell you that the management of deer populations by/for hunting has exponentially improved the health and quality of said deer populations.
    Without herd management via hunting, deer populations would fluctuate greatly due to increased populations leading to the spread of fatal diseases like Blue Tongue which decimate densely populated deer populations. Then when populations finally recover, the die off again.
    Hunting effectively stops that cycle.

    Herd management is a man-made idea.

    Herd management is simply mimicking the natural predator / prey balance found in nature, where humans are the apex predators.

    Veganism and anthropomorphism? Now those are man made ideas.

    I can buy that. I think a big problem with that is finding the balance of managing and over-managing... similar to over-fishing, depleting species of fish and having to resort to fish farming. Do you know what I mean?

    In terms of Veganism, I think yeah a lot of the "trendy" stuff is a man made idea but a lot of it isn't... a lot of it has to do with how ones body feels and performs eating that kind of diet vs. meat. I am not a Vegan by the way nor do I label myself.

    It's all about balance I guess :smile:

    ... and thanks for the intelligent conversation and not resorting to name-calling and insults. It's nice to converse with someone here who actually knows how to speak (type), AND hear at the same time. A good human quality indeed!

    Some people just take having their preconceived notions challenged as an attack because they can't imagine past what they already think, so they assume it is challenging them. All the attacks on you in this thread are a pretty good show of that. Just think of it as proof that they're too threatened to reply rationally, so they have to name call.

    Yes and I should know better by now having been here for a while.

    New information is sometimes scary. Change is certainly scary for some. I myself grew up in a programmed society learning what to eat, drink, drive, wear and how to act from our media. Until I got a mind of my own and began to do my own research from legit sources.

    Funny... in my school years (Jr. and High), we were taught that if we dared to pull the fire alarm it would surely mean a suspension! So we had a whole group of adults who think twice about pulling a fire alarm. But what if there's a fire? Haha! Or the guy who visits the doctor because he's got a vice grip clamped down on his thumb. He complains of the pain, the doc looks him over and prescribes him a pain killer sending him away without ever removing the vice grip. So many contradictions.

    This whole thing got off track (Sorry OP). I guess the bottom line is we're all free to do what we want. I don't push any agenda on anyone. It sure is nice to have an open mind though :smile:
  • Carlos_421
    Carlos_421 Posts: 5,132 Member
    Options
    Sometimes I feel bad for livestock. Then I remember the video of those baboons just riping an antelopes leg out while it still lives and I think that what we're doing with livestock isn't half bad.

    I hope you never watch one of the videos about the fact that chimps commit genocide and get into a political position.

    Trump?
  • tomteboda
    tomteboda Posts: 2,171 Member
    Options
    Carlos_421 wrote: »

    Well those were not my exact words, you're putting words in my mouth (post). But yeah, pretty much... but I still don't know why the farmer would be a Nazi... that's a racist and stereotypical thing to say :smile:

    Wait...it's racist to say that the Nazis were murderous, slave driving rapists?
    Never heard of the holocaust?

    And just so we're clear, you're condemning cattle ranchers for making money off of a living creature (cows) but defending the Nazis from being stereotyped as evil.

    We're getting into a new definition of racism. The one applied here doesn't fit either the traditional or the critical theory definition.
  • zdyb23456
    zdyb23456 Posts: 1,706 Member
    Options
    Sometimes I feel bad for livestock. Then I remember the video of those baboons just riping an antelopes leg out while it still lives and I think that what we're doing with livestock isn't half bad.

    I hope you never watch one of the videos about the fact that chimps commit genocide and get into a political position.

    I remember seeing that on Planet Earth... it was so disturbing! I've never looked at a chimp the same way after that!
  • BoxerBrawler
    BoxerBrawler Posts: 2,032 Member
    Options
    ndj1979 wrote: »
    ndj1979 wrote: »
    TR0berts wrote: »
    rankinsect wrote: »
    salembambi wrote: »
    bad for you

    & especially for the calf and mother cows

    Those cows would be in a lot of pain if they were unmilked. Dairy cows are upset with you if you fail to milk them on schedule.

    Totally wrong.
    Cows are forcefully inseminated and the moment they give birth the baby calf is ripped away before it can even walk or open it's eyes. The babies are put into cages (some) for veal and the mother cows are milked, for their milk. The entire process is painful and unethical. But yeah... keep listening to the multi-billion dollar dairy industry when they tell you milk does a body good.

    Oh, and momma cows are also upset when their babies are taken away from them.

    The words Ethical farming and slaughter just don't make sense.


    The literal dozens of local dairy farms with calves in the pasture alongside their mothers says, "you have no clue what you're talking about."

    Never said all dairy farms. Mainly just the ones making all the money.

    Why is making money off cows a bad thing?

    Because they are living beings, not things.

    that is ridiculous...

    so then no one should farm, own a butcher shop, or any other food processing plant? What do you propose all these people do for a living?

    Hell, using her metric, I'd take it a step further. All business models that make a profit off of the labor of others are bad. So pretty much all of them.

    Hey thanks for calling my simple opinion "ridiculous", that's real nice.
    I really don't care what anyone does for a living and I'm certainly not proposing anything. Nor do I state my opinion as a "Metric". Really? do you work in a corporate office? Is that this weeks buzz-word?

    Nope. I work in an asphalt lab; just being your average, run of the mill peon. I also don't recall using the word ridiculous, though you did.

    Sorry... you are right. I looked back. You didn't use the word ridiculous, it was someone else.

    Asphalt Lab! Reminds me of my mother telling me back when she was a child (60 plus years ago), her and the neighborhood kids would eat the hot tar after they poured it! She never said why but... yuk!
  • queenliz99
    queenliz99 Posts: 15,317 Member
    Options
    ndj1979 wrote: »
    ndj1979 wrote: »
    TR0berts wrote: »
    rankinsect wrote: »
    salembambi wrote: »
    bad for you

    & especially for the calf and mother cows

    Those cows would be in a lot of pain if they were unmilked. Dairy cows are upset with you if you fail to milk them on schedule.

    Totally wrong.
    Cows are forcefully inseminated and the moment they give birth the baby calf is ripped away before it can even walk or open it's eyes. The babies are put into cages (some) for veal and the mother cows are milked, for their milk. The entire process is painful and unethical. But yeah... keep listening to the multi-billion dollar dairy industry when they tell you milk does a body good.

    Oh, and momma cows are also upset when their babies are taken away from them.

    The words Ethical farming and slaughter just don't make sense.


    The literal dozens of local dairy farms with calves in the pasture alongside their mothers says, "you have no clue what you're talking about."

    Never said all dairy farms. Mainly just the ones making all the money.

    Why is making money off cows a bad thing?

    Because they are living beings, not things.

    that is ridiculous...

    so then no one should farm, own a butcher shop, or any other food processing plant? What do you propose all these people do for a living?

    Hell, using her metric, I'd take it a step further. All business models that make a profit off of the labor of others are bad. So pretty much all of them.

    Hey thanks for calling my simple opinion "ridiculous", that's real nice.
    I really don't care what anyone does for a living and I'm certainly not proposing anything. Nor do I state my opinion as a "Metric". Really? do you work in a corporate office? Is that this weeks buzz-word?

    Nope. I work in an asphalt lab; just being your average, run of the mill peon. I also don't recall using the word ridiculous, though you did.

    Sorry... you are right. I looked back. You didn't use the word ridiculous, it was someone else.

    Asphalt Lab! Reminds me of my mother telling me back when she was a child (60 plus years ago), her and the neighborhood kids would eat the hot tar after they poured it! She never said why but... yuk!

    Were feathers involved?
  • ndj1979
    ndj1979 Posts: 29,136 Member
    Options
    Carlos_421 wrote: »

    Well those were not my exact words, you're putting words in my mouth (post). But yeah, pretty much... but I still don't know why the farmer would be a Nazi... that's a racist and stereotypical thing to say :smile:

    Wait...it's racist to say that the Nazis were murderous, slave driving rapists?
    Never heard of the holocaust?

    And just so we're clear, you're condemning cattle ranchers for making money off of a living creature (cows) but defending the Nazis from being stereotyped as evil.

    *mic drop*
  • cee134
    cee134 Posts: 33,711 Member
    Options
    There is no biochemical assay that reflects calcium nutritional status.
    Since data were inadequate to determine an
    EAR and thus calculate an RDA for calcium, an Adequate Intake (AI) was instead developed. Therefore,
    the adult AIs for calcium are based on desirable rates of calcium retention
    (as determined from balance studies), factorial estimates of requirements, and
    limited data on changes in bone mineral density (BMD) and bone mineral content
    (BMC). These indicators were chosen as reasonable surrogate markers to
    reflect changes in skeletal calcium content and, therefore, calcium retention.

    Dairy products, such as milk, yogurt, and cheese, are the most calcium-rich
    foods in Western diets. Other calcium-rich foods include calcium-set
    tofu, calcium-fortified plant-based beverages, Chinese cabbage, kale, calciumfortified
    fruit juices, and broccoli.
  • cee134
    cee134 Posts: 33,711 Member
    Options
    I don't eat most dairy, unless it is sneaky and hides in my food. I just take a supplement and save my calories for other things I like more.
  • cee134
    cee134 Posts: 33,711 Member
    Options
    I will say this: Most people get their RDA for iodine (Adults 150 mcg) from dairy.
  • Nikion901
    Nikion901 Posts: 2,467 Member
    Options
    Dairy ... yumm. In all it's forms, drink it, ferment it, curdle it and age the curds, add eggs to it and coddle or scramble or bake, .... oh, oh, oh, freeze it, freeze it with fruit added, freeze it with fruit and nuts added, add flour to the milk and eggs and bake it ... <3
  • Sloth2016
    Sloth2016 Posts: 838 Member
    edited August 2016
    Options
    ndj1979 wrote: »
    ndj1979 wrote: »
    TR0berts wrote: »
    rankinsect wrote: »
    salembambi wrote: »
    bad for you

    & especially for the calf and mother cows

    Those cows would be in a lot of pain if they were unmilked. Dairy cows are upset with you if you fail to milk them on schedule.

    Totally wrong.
    Cows are forcefully inseminated and the moment they give birth the baby calf is ripped away before it can even walk or open it's eyes. The babies are put into cages (some) for veal and the mother cows are milked, for their milk. The entire process is painful and unethical. But yeah... keep listening to the multi-billion dollar dairy industry when they tell you milk does a body good.

    Oh, and momma cows are also upset when their babies are taken away from them.

    The words Ethical farming and slaughter just don't make sense.


    The literal dozens of local dairy farms with calves in the pasture alongside their mothers says, "you have no clue what you're talking about."

    Never said all dairy farms. Mainly just the ones making all the money.

    Why is making money off cows a bad thing?

    Because they are living beings, not things.

    that is ridiculous...

    so then no one should farm, own a butcher shop, or any other food processing plant? What do you propose all these people do for a living?

    Hell, using her metric, I'd take it a step further. All business models that make a profit off of the labor of others are bad. So pretty much all of them.

    Hey thanks for calling my simple opinion "ridiculous", that's real nice.
    I really don't care what anyone does for a living and I'm certainly not proposing anything. Nor do I state my opinion as a "Metric". Really? do you work in a corporate office? Is that this weeks buzz-word?

    Nope. I work in an asphalt lab; just being your average, run of the mill peon. I also don't recall using the word ridiculous, though you did.

    Sorry... you are right. I looked back. You didn't use the word ridiculous, it was someone else.

    Asphalt Lab! Reminds me of my mother telling me back when she was a child (60 plus years ago), her and the neighborhood kids would eat the hot tar after they poured it! She never said why but... yuk!

    My uncle told a story of not having any money for chewing gum as a kid, so they would chew fresh tar laid on the street. Your post brought back a memory of him.

    Here is blog post from someone who did the same as a child:
    http://letterfrombunkerhill.blogspot.com/2012/02/chewing-tar.html
  • Gallowmere1984
    Gallowmere1984 Posts: 6,626 Member
    Options
    ndj1979 wrote: »
    ndj1979 wrote: »
    TR0berts wrote: »
    rankinsect wrote: »
    salembambi wrote: »
    bad for you

    & especially for the calf and mother cows

    Those cows would be in a lot of pain if they were unmilked. Dairy cows are upset with you if you fail to milk them on schedule.

    Totally wrong.
    Cows are forcefully inseminated and the moment they give birth the baby calf is ripped away before it can even walk or open it's eyes. The babies are put into cages (some) for veal and the mother cows are milked, for their milk. The entire process is painful and unethical. But yeah... keep listening to the multi-billion dollar dairy industry when they tell you milk does a body good.

    Oh, and momma cows are also upset when their babies are taken away from them.

    The words Ethical farming and slaughter just don't make sense.


    The literal dozens of local dairy farms with calves in the pasture alongside their mothers says, "you have no clue what you're talking about."

    Never said all dairy farms. Mainly just the ones making all the money.

    Why is making money off cows a bad thing?

    Because they are living beings, not things.

    that is ridiculous...

    so then no one should farm, own a butcher shop, or any other food processing plant? What do you propose all these people do for a living?

    Hell, using her metric, I'd take it a step further. All business models that make a profit off of the labor of others are bad. So pretty much all of them.

    Hey thanks for calling my simple opinion "ridiculous", that's real nice.
    I really don't care what anyone does for a living and I'm certainly not proposing anything. Nor do I state my opinion as a "Metric". Really? do you work in a corporate office? Is that this weeks buzz-word?

    Nope. I work in an asphalt lab; just being your average, run of the mill peon. I also don't recall using the word ridiculous, though you did.

    Sorry... you are right. I looked back. You didn't use the word ridiculous, it was someone else.

    Asphalt Lab! Reminds me of my mother telling me back when she was a child (60 plus years ago), her and the neighborhood kids would eat the hot tar after they poured it! She never said why but... yuk!

    Old school coal tar does have a mildly sweet smell and taste. However, that stuff was phased out a long time ago, in favor of synthetic asphalt oils, refined from crude oil. The current stuff tastes awful, I assure you. I didn't exactly eat it on purpose, and that stuff hurts when it splatters the mouth at 250 degrees. Heh.
  • LivingtheLeanDream
    LivingtheLeanDream Posts: 13,342 Member
    Options
    Its only bad if you are intolerant to it imo
  • bshrom
    bshrom Posts: 71 Member
    Options
    I'm vegan so I think dairy is a no go