Obesity. Are you just lazy and dumb?
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lemurcat12 wrote: »kommodevaran wrote: »
Plus a little bit of knowledge, that I think everybody older than eight years, has.kommodevaran wrote: »
It was a point that made a lot of sense, it just missed the mark a little bit, and that little bit is important.Gallowmere1984 wrote: »Wickglamgirl wrote: »Simply Amazing Post. My old trainer used to say to me if "fat women" cared as much about their bodies as they do about their false nails and manicures, they wouldn't be fat any longer. I informed him that having their nails done - whether you like fake nails or not - was something that they could control. And it made them feel good.
This post really was fabulous - thank-you so much! - Big Hug from Toronto!
They can also control their weight, if they bothered to try. Your point made no sense.
I think the ability to manage weight depends on whether the person believes that their food intake - and subsequently their weight - is something they can control, and that their food choices makes them feel good.
This would absolutely be a helpful belief as far as taking ownership but this belief by itself is not enough for someone to successfully manage their weight.
Diet adherence is not as simple as believing in yourself and not being dumber than an eight year old.
Yeah if only we could bottle what makes someone adhere to a plan at one stage in their life, what a money-spinner that will be
Adherence is so personal, so subjective, so dependent on so many factors in ones life coming together to bolster willpower
I know that for 30 years I was able to follow various diet plans, and/or fitness plans. I know it wasn't until I hit 47 that it ever stuck for longer than a year ..I do not believe that is because I just went CICO and found a trainer / way of exercising that suits me ...I think there were a myriad of others factors in my life coming together at that point and I'm fairly self-analytical and still couldn't tell you why now and why not before ...I have had stronger reasons and motivations before including planned pregnancy, lots of time on my hands, serious health issues etc ...but something clicked into place and I put my effort into not letting it unclick and I still do
Maybe weight control and fitness is down to dumb luck in the end
But it has to start somewhere
It does, and it has to start with a reason to do it in the first place along with personal responsibility and taking ownership.
But these things don't by themselves necessarily cause someone to be able to adhere to diet or training.
And assuming they do (not saying you're making this assumption by the way) implies that people who can't adhere either don't care, or just make excuses, or are dumb.
I don't agree with this, which is why I used myself as an example.
For example, I think it's possible to care in a general sense (of course I don't want to be overweight) but if given a particular tradeoff (you have to think about what you eat always to be thin or (as some believe) you can't ever eat your favorite foods again to be thin) people will genuinely CHOOSE not losing weight. They don't care about being thin to the extent of making those tradeoffs (or many others). It's not a socially-acceptable position to take, so it may be something they won't admit even to themselves or feel bad about or what to change -- I WANT to be someone who wouldn't find it hard to give up all my favorite foods is, I think, at the root of many fad diet promises (juice for 2 weeks and you won't care about chocolate).
More significantly still, I think it's possible to care in general but not in a specific moment -- longterm vs. shortterm. For example, one thing I struggled with in getting started again was that I cared about getting thinner, but once I realized it was going to take a year to get to goal, did it matter whether I started today or tomorrow? What's 365 vs. 366 days? Easy to keep doing that forever. It was necessary to come up with concrete reasons why I wanted to start losing weight NOW (it was easier to do this by focusing on getting healthier, feeling better, stuff like that, but for people like me who really felt fine, it is more difficult) and also specifics besides wanting to be thinner (or 120) -- I want to wear this outfit or do this bike trip or (if it's an issue) play with my kids in this way, or reduce cholesterol, etc. Specifics that you can place against a decision to eat something vs. one more day.
This is actually why logging worked for me -- eating something was a tradeoff against eating something else and plus there's a built-in reward for just logging and staying on plan for one day, internally for me anyway.
I definitely think one can lack these kinds of affirmative reasons to care about a specific eating or exercise decision (vs. all the tradeoffs) without being someone who generally doesn't care (which I get you see as a negative) or is lazy or dumb.
I'd still call it not caring enough or not being there yet, as I think it's an internal process that leads to the kind of caring that I think is necessary to overcome the long-term vs. short-term problem.
I'm not clear specifically how this demonstrates your disagreement, can you clarify which part you disagree with?0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »kommodevaran wrote: »
Plus a little bit of knowledge, that I think everybody older than eight years, has.kommodevaran wrote: »
It was a point that made a lot of sense, it just missed the mark a little bit, and that little bit is important.Gallowmere1984 wrote: »Wickglamgirl wrote: »Simply Amazing Post. My old trainer used to say to me if "fat women" cared as much about their bodies as they do about their false nails and manicures, they wouldn't be fat any longer. I informed him that having their nails done - whether you like fake nails or not - was something that they could control. And it made them feel good.
This post really was fabulous - thank-you so much! - Big Hug from Toronto!
They can also control their weight, if they bothered to try. Your point made no sense.
I think the ability to manage weight depends on whether the person believes that their food intake - and subsequently their weight - is something they can control, and that their food choices makes them feel good.
This would absolutely be a helpful belief as far as taking ownership but this belief by itself is not enough for someone to successfully manage their weight.
Diet adherence is not as simple as believing in yourself and not being dumber than an eight year old.
Yeah if only we could bottle what makes someone adhere to a plan at one stage in their life, what a money-spinner that will be
Adherence is so personal, so subjective, so dependent on so many factors in ones life coming together to bolster willpower
I know that for 30 years I was able to follow various diet plans, and/or fitness plans. I know it wasn't until I hit 47 that it ever stuck for longer than a year ..I do not believe that is because I just went CICO and found a trainer / way of exercising that suits me ...I think there were a myriad of others factors in my life coming together at that point and I'm fairly self-analytical and still couldn't tell you why now and why not before ...I have had stronger reasons and motivations before including planned pregnancy, lots of time on my hands, serious health issues etc ...but something clicked into place and I put my effort into not letting it unclick and I still do
Maybe weight control and fitness is down to dumb luck in the end
But it has to start somewhere
It does, and it has to start with a reason to do it in the first place along with personal responsibility and taking ownership.
But these things don't by themselves necessarily cause someone to be able to adhere to diet or training.
And assuming they do (not saying you're making this assumption by the way) implies that people who can't adhere either don't care, or just make excuses, or are dumb.
I don't agree with this, which is why I used myself as an example.
For example, I think it's possible to care in a general sense (of course I don't want to be overweight) but if given a particular tradeoff (you have to think about what you eat always to be thin or (as some believe) you can't ever eat your favorite foods again to be thin) people will genuinely CHOOSE not losing weight. They don't care about being thin to the extent of making those tradeoffs (or many others). It's not a socially-acceptable position to take, so it may be something they won't admit even to themselves or feel bad about or what to change -- I WANT to be someone who wouldn't find it hard to give up all my favorite foods is, I think, at the root of many fad diet promises (juice for 2 weeks and you won't care about chocolate).
More significantly still, I think it's possible to care in general but not in a specific moment -- longterm vs. shortterm. For example, one thing I struggled with in getting started again was that I cared about getting thinner, but once I realized it was going to take a year to get to goal, did it matter whether I started today or tomorrow? What's 365 vs. 366 days? Easy to keep doing that forever. It was necessary to come up with concrete reasons why I wanted to start losing weight NOW (it was easier to do this by focusing on getting healthier, feeling better, stuff like that, but for people like me who really felt fine, it is more difficult) and also specifics besides wanting to be thinner (or 120) -- I want to wear this outfit or do this bike trip or (if it's an issue) play with my kids in this way, or reduce cholesterol, etc. Specifics that you can place against a decision to eat something vs. one more day.
This is actually why logging worked for me -- eating something was a tradeoff against eating something else and plus there's a built-in reward for just logging and staying on plan for one day, internally for me anyway.
I definitely think one can lack these kinds of affirmative reasons to care about a specific eating or exercise decision (vs. all the tradeoffs) without being someone who generally doesn't care (which I get you see as a negative) or is lazy or dumb.
I'd still call it not caring enough or not being there yet, as I think it's an internal process that leads to the kind of caring that I think is necessary to overcome the long-term vs. short-term problem.
I'm not clear specifically how this demonstrates your disagreement, can you clarify which part you disagree with?
Oh, sorry -- meant to explain that and then got distracted midway through.
You said that assuming that having a reason plus personal responsibility, taking ownership, and knowing you can do it are not enough and that if you assume it is then you are assuming that someone who doesn't adhere doesn't care (which for you I think means "I just don't care that I'm fat"), or is making excuses, or is dumb.
I don't think that follows. We agree that someone who has trouble adhering is not necessarily dumb, making excuses, or not caring (as in doesn't mind being fat).
I think the problem (and it's mostly a short-term vs. long-term benefit problem) still comes back to a form of caring or believing you can do it.
Here's an example, if someone knew that one more cookie today (but not tomorrow) would cause them to gain 20 lbs or that not eating it would mean they lost 20 lbs, would anyone (well, anyone who thought they were too fat) take the cookie? Few, the vast majority would wait until tomorrow.
But one eating decision never seems that significant, without an overall program you have bought into, and so it's easy to say doesn't matter, the reasons I want to eat matter more. I don't think that means you don't care about being fat (nor do I think this is the only reason people overeat, but it's a big one). I do think it means that you haven't fully connected these individual decisions to why you care or specific enough things you care about, you don't really believe it matters, and for many it's because they don't really believe it will work, at least not long-term in a way they could manage to keep up.
I think this is behind why many may not care when making a specific decision (should I work out today, should I eat a pint of ice cream after dinner), but doesn't mean they are stupid, lazy, or don't care in the sense you seem to be using it (have no self respect or don't care about their weight/health at all).
I think fixing these problems WILL enable someone to adhere, but it can be tough and complicated.
I think recognizing that it's typically down at the bottom a matter of tradeoffs or benefits from the behaviors the person thinks would have to be changed or else not connecting the changes to a concrete result that they believe is possible is not at all like saying that if the person isn't successful they are lazy, dumb, or don't care (which seems like an insulting judgment). Maybe that's not a disagreement, but it felt like one, I think because we see "don't care" differently. I think for you saying someone "doesn't care enough" is insulting or means they don't care about being thinner or in better health. I think it's about tradeoffs and that when you don't adhere at least in the moment the tradeoff isn't worth it (although this can be corrected for many people by helping them understand the positives and negatives differently or have a better sense of what the tradeoffs really are).
For example, I think lots of people don't really believe it will work, so you are asking them to do something that feels like an uncomfortable change (even just simple eat less/move more) for NO likely benefit. Others assume that "eat less/move more" means eating only food they dislike or always being hungry or having to slave away at some unpleasant activity. They may not care enough to do these tradeoffs, and that doesn't make them a bad person (just misinformed about what the tradeoffs are).3 -
kommodevaran wrote: »
Being young and/or ignorant is not the same as being dumb, but having all the necessary information without being able to connect the dots, is sort of the definition of "dumb".kommodevaran wrote: »
Plus a little bit of knowledge, that I think everybody older than eight years, has.kommodevaran wrote: »
It was a point that made a lot of sense, it just missed the mark a little bit, and that little bit is important.Gallowmere1984 wrote: »Wickglamgirl wrote: »Simply Amazing Post. My old trainer used to say to me if "fat women" cared as much about their bodies as they do about their false nails and manicures, they wouldn't be fat any longer. I informed him that having their nails done - whether you like fake nails or not - was something that they could control. And it made them feel good.
This post really was fabulous - thank-you so much! - Big Hug from Toronto!
They can also control their weight, if they bothered to try. Your point made no sense.
I think the ability to manage weight depends on whether the person believes that their food intake - and subsequently their weight - is something they can control, and that their food choices makes them feel good.
This would absolutely be a helpful belief as far as taking ownership but this belief by itself is not enough for someone to successfully manage their weight.
Diet adherence is not as simple as believing in yourself and not being dumber than an eight year old.
I think this is what I was trying to say earlier I didn't know HOW to maintain weight loss. I only knew that I needed to not eat so much, but I didn't know how much less. I feel dumb now that I understand this. Perhaps with the internet and food diary apps, the knowledge is getting out there more. The emphasis seemed to always be on losing weight and fast not how to keep it off.
That has a lot to do with the dieting industry's interpretation of sales, and it's one that they appear to be bang on with. Even Lyle McDonald acknowledges that he would probably sell a lot more books if he focused less on the science and hard truths, and more on the mainstream diet tactic of hiding caloric restriction behind fancy sounding (but ultimately irrelevant) crap.
Apparently even basic nutritional function is too much for most people to be asked to learn. That is where the lazy part of "stupid and lazy" tends to come in. Physical laziness can be overcome with a strong enough deficit. Mental laziness will keep one from ever changing their state. It doesn't apply to everyone, and most can (and a few will) eventually overcome it. Until then, expect Oz and Food Babe to remain in high demand, while McDonald and Duchaine (though he's been dead for almost 20 yesrs) remain quite fringe.
Hell, I'm honestly shocked that Atkins remains prevalent, given that it does require a whoooole lot of label reading these days, due to the sugar being loaded into stuff that never had it when the diet originated. Though their "low-net carb" candy bars likely help with adherence.2 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »kommodevaran wrote: »
It was a point that made a lot of sense, it just missed the mark a little bit, and that little bit is important.Gallowmere1984 wrote: »Wickglamgirl wrote: »Simply Amazing Post. My old trainer used to say to me if "fat women" cared as much about their bodies as they do about their false nails and manicures, they wouldn't be fat any longer. I informed him that having their nails done - whether you like fake nails or not - was something that they could control. And it made them feel good.
This post really was fabulous - thank-you so much! - Big Hug from Toronto!
They can also control their weight, if they bothered to try. Your point made no sense.
I think the ability to manage weight depends on whether the person believes that their food intake - and subsequently their weight - is something they can control, and that their food choices makes them feel good.
This is definitely a huge part of it, yes, but I think tragedies can happen that derail even the most dedicated to the issue of personal accountability and control. I've seen this with several people I know. Old habits of comfort/stress eating are very easy to fall back into when you encounter some real difficulties.
There but for the grace...
Again, this is about judging without knowing. It's still about priorities. Sometimes in life, certain things take a back seat.
Well said.
I found losing 50 lbs very easy 2 years ago.
I found maintaining that loss very easy 1 year ago.
I found losing a few more pounds easy 10 months ago.
Then things changed. I had an extremely stressful 6 months, which only started to turn around in the last several weeks. During that time I lifted more than ever and tightened down on eating more than ever. I also slept terribly and my NEAT plummeted. My weight loss came to a standstill. I continued to try to control calories eaten more and more because they were one of the few things I could control during that time. It was very unhealthy and I am thankful that I'm pulling out of it with my health mostly in place. I have gained a few pounds in the past month but need a relief from the constant diligence! of food tracking for now so I am ok with that.1 -
I have never been dumb. I think few of us live as polarised lives as your clearly extreme examples
I was obese because I ate too much, didn't move enough and didn't commit enough to changing because I was convinced I was fine and because I was too lazy to find a way too change, it wasn't a priority to me
I'm not sure what I think about your post. I'm not one to fat shame but I also can't abide excuses.
I appreciate it is harder for some than others. I get that society stacks the decks. But there's also a line of personal responsibility.
I work with people who have the cards stacked against them in many ways (not in fitness) excuses don't cut it, failing to try is trying to fail.
I really don't know what to think of your post
I don't think it was meant to excuse or justify anything. I think it was meant as an example that the difficultly level for weight loss and a healthy lifestyle is dependent on so many different things and the majority of people don't understand that sometimes there are so many more factors than just wanting to make a change.
No I get that, it's related to my professional field and I've been dealing with inequalities and societal issues for the last decade.
Life isn't a level playing field. So what? My success stories got that. My failures didn't generally.
It's fair enough to want to change external attitudes from those outside judging but I don't believe it will happen, its endemic in politics, economics, media. Believe me I'd love to see a total shift in the perceptions towards, and of, the poor and dispossessed
I haven't read the rest of the posts but I think you've missed the point. At no point in the op does she say poor buggers, it's not their fault. The major point is don't belittle somebody's struggle because it might be bigger than you realize.0 -
I have never been dumb. I think few of us live as polarised lives as your clearly extreme examples
I was obese because I ate too much, didn't move enough and didn't commit enough to changing because I was convinced I was fine and because I was too lazy to find a way too change, it wasn't a priority to me
I'm not sure what I think about your post. I'm not one to fat shame but I also can't abide excuses.
I appreciate it is harder for some than others. I get that society stacks the decks. But there's also a line of personal responsibility.
I work with people who have the cards stacked against them in many ways (not in fitness) excuses don't cut it, failing to try is trying to fail.
I really don't know what to think of your post
I don't think it was meant to excuse or justify anything. I think it was meant as an example that the difficultly level for weight loss and a healthy lifestyle is dependent on so many different things and the majority of people don't understand that sometimes there are so many more factors than just wanting to make a change.
No I get that, it's related to my professional field and I've been dealing with inequalities and societal issues for the last decade.
Life isn't a level playing field. So what? My success stories got that. My failures didn't generally.
It's fair enough to want to change external attitudes from those outside judging but I don't believe it will happen, its endemic in politics, economics, media. Believe me I'd love to see a total shift in the perceptions towards, and of, the poor and dispossessed
I haven't read the rest of the posts but I think you've missed the point. At no point in the op does she say poor buggers, it's not their fault. The major point is don't belittle somebody's struggle because it might be bigger than you realize.
Are you implying that I am either belittling others struggle or ignorant of others issues because one thing I can assure you of is I am neither
But alongside that I do think personal responsibility and the conversation that has ensued has been interesting, at least when people have gone beyond the necessary supportive, global acceptance constructs0 -
@SideSteel, I get where you’re coming from with the main message. And there are a lot of people that have been making assumptions.
But there is that hidden group that have been making assumptions in the opposite direction. They read about Margaret, placed themselves in that group, and went on their merry way believing weight loss just isn’t in the cards for them.
Life is inherently unfair in all arenas in life. The common thread in people who succeed who fall in the unfair category are those who refuse to acknowledge the unfairness and allow it to hold them back. But leaning on the unfairness as reasons in my experience only seems to get in the way. I know it has in my own life.
I’ve been witnessing it a lot personally now that I’m pretty close to my goal and I get people asking me pretty consistently what I’m doing and can I help them. It seems before I can get what I do out of my mouth I’m met with a barrage of “Yeah I can’t do that because <reasons>.” And then “I wishes” happen after that where if only factors were different they could do it. It is incredibly frustrating.
I’m sure we aren’t even disagreeing on anything so I guess what I’m asking is what do you do in your practice when you run into this? Do you see it often or are your clients a less likely to do this since they already agreed to pay you for the hard sell? Curious your process on when the Margaret’s come to you for guidance and you lay out a plan, non compliance happens, and those external factors are seemingly the ‘cause’.
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lemurcat12 wrote: »
Um, maybe I'm being insecure here, but I don't see how my comments to SideSteel got in the way of a solid discussion (and I mention this since you tagged on to that interchange). Perhaps I was misreading him and we agree more than I thought -- my point was really to express some uncertainty as to the point or even conflict in my own thoughts than to take issue with him, after all.Empathy is a difficult skill to master for many and you can see that on full display here.
To what does this refer? I won't assume by the placement of the post.
There was nothing personally about you in my reply. Sorry it came across that way. I was quoting just something he said that I felt would add a bit of my own thoughts into the discussion. I agreed with what you had said as well, but did not go through it all and reply as SideSteel had already responded. In general, I feel as if people are letting their own insecurities guide their responses instead of taking a step back and responding in a more appropriate way.
Anyway, I'm fat and lazy blah blah blah...
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I@SideSteel, I get where you’re coming from with the main message. And there are a lot of people that have been making assumptions.
But there is that hidden group that have been making assumptions in the opposite direction. They read about Margaret, placed themselves in that group, and went on their merry way believing weight loss just isn’t in the cards for them.
Life is inherently unfair in all arenas in life. The common thread in people who succeed who fall in the unfair category are those who refuse to acknowledge the unfairness and allow it to hold them back. But leaning on the unfairness as reasons in my experience only seems to get in the way. I know it has in my own life.
I’ve been witnessing it a lot personally now that I’m pretty close to my goal and I get people asking me pretty consistently what I’m doing and can I help them. It seems before I can get what I do out of my mouth I’m met with a barrage of “Yeah I can’t do that because <reasons>.” And then “I wishes” happen after that where if only factors were different they could do it. It is incredibly frustrating.
I’m sure we aren’t even disagreeing on anything so I guess what I’m asking is what do you do in your practice when you run into this? Do you see it often or are your clients a less likely to do this since they already agreed to pay you for the hard sell? Curious your process on when the Margaret’s come to you for guidance and you lay out a plan, non compliance happens, and those external factors are seemingly the ‘cause’.
Great reply.
I'll respond to this later when I can take the necessary time to do so but these are great questions.3 -
Bump because I failed to respond to the above question. I still intend to.0
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@SideSteel, I get where you’re coming from with the main message. And there are a lot of people that have been making assumptions.
But there is that hidden group that have been making assumptions in the opposite direction. They read about Margaret, placed themselves in that group, and went on their merry way believing weight loss just isn’t in the cards for them.
Life is inherently unfair in all arenas in life. The common thread in people who succeed who fall in the unfair category are those who refuse to acknowledge the unfairness and allow it to hold them back. But leaning on the unfairness as reasons in my experience only seems to get in the way. I know it has in my own life.
I’ve been witnessing it a lot personally now that I’m pretty close to my goal and I get people asking me pretty consistently what I’m doing and can I help them. It seems before I can get what I do out of my mouth I’m met with a barrage of “Yeah I can’t do that because <reasons>.” And then “I wishes” happen after that where if only factors were different they could do it. It is incredibly frustrating.
I’m sure we aren’t even disagreeing on anything so I guess what I’m asking is what do you do in your practice when you run into this? Do you see it often or are your clients a less likely to do this since they already agreed to pay you for the hard sell? Curious your process on when the Margaret’s come to you for guidance and you lay out a plan, non compliance happens, and those external factors are seemingly the ‘cause’.
Thanks for reminding me about this in the Q and A thread.
So first of all I definitely see compliance issues on a regular basis in many clients. And it really varies from client to client as far as how much they struggle and what we can do to assist that process.
I don't tend to get clients who hire me for coaching, and then dismiss my direction. I will however, get clients who attempt to implement my direction, have issues with certain aspects of it, and then how they handle that failure also varies from person to person.
When someone DOES struggle, I'll do my best to ATTEMPT to put myself in their position and understand what and why they are struggling, and I also get their feedback on what and why they are struggling.
I can think of examples from current clients who have had a great deal of success with this approach.
I can think of examples from clients who were resistant to this approach and ended the coaching relationship before we could do much troubleshooting to attempt to improve the process.
I CAN think of a couple of examples who are at least somewhat similar to your "I can't do that because" example you listed above, and in those cases I ultimately failed to help them.
I could have handled each of those cases better than I did, and it's possible that I may have been able to be more effective. It's also possible that it wouldn't have made any difference but I tend to assume the former.
I'm not sure if this answers your question or not.
I can say this with a good amount of confidence -- in my experience, people who accept a high degree of personal responsibility for their behaviors tend to do a whole lot better than people who don't accept any, however in my opinion the latter is rare when it comes to people who would hire a coach. And that's likely selection bias on my part.
I might ramble a bit about this in the Q and A thread too but it may go off topic a bit.
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I disagree with the original post almost completely. If I am being perfectly honest, the ones I blame the most are the fitness instructors, the leaders of the numerous diet fads, magazine articles, media, and everything else that has been responsible for spreading so.much. misinformation out there. I honestly believed that my size was genetic because EVERYONE in my family is obese. I believed that I had to sacrifice everything and eat nothing but salads and fruits and run all the time just to lose weight.
If I had known that at its core, it was simply (but not easily) a matter of calories in/calories out, I would have started losing this weight a very long time ago. But what all this misinformation has created was a new movement called Health At Every Size (and other related movements) and that being obese is perfectly okay and should be embraced and accepted because there is nothing that we can do about it.3 -
_Justinian_ wrote: »I disagree with the original post almost completely. If I am being perfectly honest, the ones I blame the most are the fitness instructors, the leaders of the numerous diet fads, magazine articles, media, and everything else that has been responsible for spreading so.much. misinformation out there. I honestly believed that my size was genetic because EVERYONE in my family is obese. I believed that I had to sacrifice everything and eat nothing but salads and fruits and run all the time just to lose weight.
If I had known that at its core, it was simply (but not easily) a matter of calories in/calories out, I would have started losing this weight a very long time ago. But what all this misinformation has created was a new movement called Health At Every Size (and other related movements) and that being obese is perfectly okay and should be embraced and accepted because there is nothing that we can do about it.
I appreciate your reply, but I'm also not clear on what it is that you disagree with.6 -
To exercise/diet means you are having to make some sacrifices not just for yourself, but become selfish and "treat" yourself at the same time and also at the expense of those around you. If those sacrifices are being spent on others, then there's simply little to nothing left for yourself. If I was just trying to get through the day or week, the last thing I'd be focused on or even consider was how much I weighed. It's hard to do anything for yourself, even take a vacation for a week, when you are buried up to your chin in responsibility and in debt to others.
I've been budgeting now for quite a while. I can still manage to buy great quality foods and ration them to out last the cheapest of junk foods. Some healthy foods only appear to be expensive, but if you do the math they often outlast the stuff that carries the obvious 99 cent price tag. The healthy stuff keeps me full too. A bag of long grain brown rice can last me ages; a cheap box of cereal, not so much and even considering the milk.0 -
I appreciate your reply, but I'm also not clear on what it is that you disagree with.
The way I am interpreting your post is that you are saying these people are the way they are because of their environments. I agree with you to a certain extent about the fact they are neither dumb nor lazy, but the problem lies with misinformation and the way all these various "health" sites take advantage of these people. That is my argument. I can go into more detail and/or provide examples if needed, but I don't want to derail the topic of this thread.
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_Justinian_ wrote: »I appreciate your reply, but I'm also not clear on what it is that you disagree with.
The way I am interpreting your post is that you are saying these people are the way they are because of their environments. I agree with you to a certain extent about the fact they are neither dumb nor lazy, but the problem lies with misinformation and the way all these various "health" sites take advantage of these people. That is my argument. I can go into more detail and/or provide examples if needed, but I don't want to derail the topic of this thread.
Thanks for elaborating and I don't think you're derailing the thread.
I'm typing from my phone so I don't mean to be short but here's my opinion on your reply:
Environment is one of many factors.
The obesity system influences map illustrates the complexities involved.
I agree that misinformation in the fitness industry is a big net-negative on many people.
However while I do think misinformation is A problem, I do not agree that it's THE problem, since this implies that there's a singular problem.
I think it's far more complex than this.7 -
Are you implying that I am either belittling others struggle or ignorant of others issues because one thing I can assure you of is I am neither
But alongside that I do think personal responsibility and the conversation that has ensued has been interesting, at least when people have gone beyond the necessary supportive, global acceptance constructs
The problem here is you're dismissing that struggle. You are not mocking anyone for struggling, and you're not ignorant of the issues, but you're still dismissing it as "personal responsibility". When someone says, "these are the factors that make it hard for me to work out," your line of reply shouldn't be, "this is your responsibility, and you just aren't trying hard enough" because, despite it being your gut reaction to someone talking about their struggle, it doesn't help anyone. It might sound appealing to play hardball, but when someone says, "I don't have time to cook, I feel uncomfortable working out in front of people, I don't have the knowledge or support network to make working out feel good", blaming them for making excuses doesn't help anyone.
That person needs help, actual help, resources for working out; friends who talk about being fit in a positive, goal-oriented way; options for healthy food that doesn't take extra time and fits their budget; the experience of others who have dealt with their problems before. These aren't excuses, they're roadblocks, and regardless of your experience with being obese and not caring, there are people for whom that is not the issue and typecasting them as being like yourself will never ever help them.
I recognize that your experience was that you did not care and then one day you chose to care and you made positive changes, but if you continue to associate people's roadblocks and struggles with your own not caring about your weight, then you will continue to misdiagnose people's stories as excuses and therefore further isolate them when you respond to them like that.9 -
Are you implying that I am either belittling others struggle or ignorant of others issues because one thing I can assure you of is I am neither
But alongside that I do think personal responsibility and the conversation that has ensued has been interesting, at least when people have gone beyond the necessary supportive, global acceptance constructs
The problem here is you're dismissing that struggle. You are not mocking anyone for struggling, and you're not ignorant of the issues, but you're still dismissing it as "personal responsibility". When someone says, "these are the factors that make it hard for me to work out," your line of reply shouldn't be, "this is your responsibility, and you just aren't trying hard enough" because, despite it being your gut reaction to someone talking about their struggle, it doesn't help anyone. It might sound appealing to play hardball, but when someone says, "I don't have time to cook, I feel uncomfortable working out in front of people, I don't have the knowledge or support network to make working out feel good", blaming them for making excuses doesn't help anyone.
That person needs help, actual help, resources for working out; friends who talk about being fit in a positive, goal-oriented way; options for healthy food that doesn't take extra time and fits their budget; the experience of others who have dealt with their problems before. These aren't excuses, they're roadblocks, and regardless of your experience with being obese and not caring, there are people for whom that is not the issue and typecasting them as being like yourself will never ever help them.
Again, I get the sense that people on this thread are using "don't care enough" in different ways.
At the time I started losing weight back in my early 30s, the following were true (and I would agree they were roadblocks or factors that made it hard for me, at least in my mind):
I thought I didn't have time to cook and didn't really find it easy (I was in the habit of following recipes when I did). I also thought I had no time to work out (I was in a pretty stressful and demanding job).
I was definitely embarrassed to have others see me work out.
I didn't have close friendships or relationships with people into fitness -- most of my friends were more likely to spend free time going out to eat.
When I decided I HAD to figure out how to change this, I didn't dislike being fat more but I did CARE more in some sense -- I decided I needed to change it now, no matter what. I also focused on learning to be healthy/fit no matter what, since I did not really believe that I could lose weight (not sure why, seems dumb now).
I looked around and saw that plenty of people with similar jobs (my co-workers) were in good shape and made time to work out.
I decided that I was a smart and competent person and could learn to cook healthy meals.
I sucked it up and started going to the gym, even though I was embarrassed, and also running outside (something I worked up to gradually).
I set fitness goals and through that developed friendships with people doing similar things, i.e., working out.
So I would say that even with stumbling blocks deciding you care enough that you will figure out how to get by them is the key. When I was telling myself "I cannot cook dinner, I cannot work out" I was lying to myself, even though I was routinely working crazy hours and constantly insanely stressed about work.
Now, getting by the stumbling blocks requires figuring out how (and others can help with this) but ultimately whether you do or not is going to depend on how important it is to you -- other things might well be more important (which is fine). But claiming it's super important (I really, really care) and not doing anything seems inconsistent to me. I was genuinely confused about how to cook in a way that fit in with my lifestyle and how to lose weight and scared to go to the gym, and yet when I was living with that and not doing anything to change it it was because I didn't care enough to (which is not the same thing as saying I didn't mind being fat, because I did -- I just thought that I should be able to be not fat and not think about it).3 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Are you implying that I am either belittling others struggle or ignorant of others issues because one thing I can assure you of is I am neither
But alongside that I do think personal responsibility and the conversation that has ensued has been interesting, at least when people have gone beyond the necessary supportive, global acceptance constructs
The problem here is you're dismissing that struggle. You are not mocking anyone for struggling, and you're not ignorant of the issues, but you're still dismissing it as "personal responsibility". When someone says, "these are the factors that make it hard for me to work out," your line of reply shouldn't be, "this is your responsibility, and you just aren't trying hard enough" because, despite it being your gut reaction to someone talking about their struggle, it doesn't help anyone. It might sound appealing to play hardball, but when someone says, "I don't have time to cook, I feel uncomfortable working out in front of people, I don't have the knowledge or support network to make working out feel good", blaming them for making excuses doesn't help anyone.
That person needs help, actual help, resources for working out; friends who talk about being fit in a positive, goal-oriented way; options for healthy food that doesn't take extra time and fits their budget; the experience of others who have dealt with their problems before. These aren't excuses, they're roadblocks, and regardless of your experience with being obese and not caring, there are people for whom that is not the issue and typecasting them as being like yourself will never ever help them.
Again, I get the sense that people on this thread are using "don't care enough" in different ways.
At the time I started losing weight back in my early 30s, the following were true (and I would agree they were roadblocks or factors that made it hard for me, at least in my mind):
I thought I didn't have time to cook and didn't really find it easy (I was in the habit of following recipes when I did). I also thought I had no time to work out (I was in a pretty stressful and demanding job).
I was definitely embarrassed to have others see me work out.
I didn't have close friendships or relationships with people into fitness -- most of my friends were more likely to spend free time going out to eat.
When I decided I HAD to figure out how to change this, I didn't dislike being fat more but I did CARE more in some sense -- I decided I needed to change it now, no matter what. I also focused on learning to be healthy/fit no matter what, since I did not really believe that I could lose weight (not sure why, seems dumb now).
I looked around and saw that plenty of people with similar jobs (my co-workers) were in good shape and made time to work out.
I decided that I was a smart and competent person and could learn to cook healthy meals.
I sucked it up and started going to the gym, even though I was embarrassed, and also running outside (something I worked up to gradually).
I set fitness goals and through that developed friendships with people doing similar things, i.e., working out.
So I would say that even with stumbling blocks deciding you care enough that you will figure out how to get by them is the key. When I was telling myself "I cannot cook dinner, I cannot work out" I was lying to myself, even though I was routinely working crazy hours and constantly insanely stressed about work.
Now, getting by the stumbling blocks requires figuring out how (and others can help with this) but ultimately whether you do or not is going to depend on how important it is to you -- other things might well be more important (which is fine). But claiming it's super important (I really, really care) and not doing anything seems inconsistent to me. I was genuinely confused about how to cook in a way that fit in with my lifestyle and how to lose weight and scared to go to the gym, and yet when I was living with that and not doing anything to change it it was because I didn't care enough to (which is not the same thing as saying I didn't mind being fat, because I did -- I just thought that I should be able to be not fat and not think about it).
Yep0 -
Are you implying that I am either belittling others struggle or ignorant of others issues because one thing I can assure you of is I am neither
But alongside that I do think personal responsibility and the conversation that has ensued has been interesting, at least when people have gone beyond the necessary supportive, global acceptance constructs
The problem here is you're dismissing that struggle. You are not mocking anyone for struggling, and you're not ignorant of the issues, but you're still dismissing it as "personal responsibility". When someone says, "these are the factors that make it hard for me to work out," your line of reply shouldn't be, "this is your responsibility, and you just aren't trying hard enough" because, despite it being your gut reaction to someone talking about their struggle, it doesn't help anyone. It might sound appealing to play hardball, but when someone says, "I don't have time to cook, I feel uncomfortable working out in front of people, I don't have the knowledge or support network to make working out feel good", blaming them for making excuses doesn't help anyone.
That person needs help, actual help, resources for working out; friends who talk about being fit in a positive, goal-oriented way; options for healthy food that doesn't take extra time and fits their budget; the experience of others who have dealt with their problems before. These aren't excuses, they're roadblocks, and regardless of your experience with being obese and not caring, there are people for whom that is not the issue and typecasting them as being like yourself will never ever help them.
I recognize that your experience was that you did not care and then one day you chose to care and you made positive changes, but if you continue to associate people's roadblocks and struggles with your own not caring about your weight, then you will continue to misdiagnose people's stories as excuses and therefore further isolate them when you respond to them like that.
There is a fine line between helping someone and enabling someone I think.
We all face roadblocks and sometimes coddling someone when they face a roadblock doesn't help them see that they are capable of helping themselves. People need to see that THEY can go over, under and around the roadblock.
Telling someone that they have to commit and take personal responsibility is true. It's the START to empowering someone to see that they can be in control of things. Otherwise folks will continue to walk into a roadblock and stay stuck there.
But I agree that AFTER you tell someone to take personal responsibility one who's walked that mile can perhaps show others how to overcome said roadblocks.
just my thoughts whatever its worth!
0
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