Obesity. Are you just lazy and dumb?
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Aaron_K123 wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »You make a lot of good points.
I hope you're not saying it's impossible for Margarets to lose weight. It's not. Apologies if you think you'd made that obvious.
I'm sure as a PT you take a different approach to Margaret as to Chad.
Likewise as MFP Community posters, we need to reply to each poster differently depending on the individual's circumstances. A lot of tips and tricks are more appropriate for Margaret than they are for Chad and vice versa.
I feel I must also point out that in my innumerable hours spent in this forum, I can't recall an outright instance of fat-shaming.
I'm not at all saying it's impossible for Margaret or anyone else to succeed.
I'm also not removing the importance of personal responsibility.
Fat shaming doesn't happen often at all on these forums which is quite fortunate and if it did I trust the moderators would handle it as they're pretty good overall here.
Your sides may be steel but you are a big softy man. You care and that shows and that is going to work for a lot of people, but not for everyone. I also care, but I don't think I could call myself a softy...I'm rather blunt and I will call someone out for not taking responsibility for their actions. Is that "fat shaming" if I do so to an obese person who is putting a lot of energy into blaming external factors for their condition but not a lot into doing anything to change that condition? I guess that judgement rests in others but I'd like to think not. I think fat shaming is done by people who want to feel better about themselves not those who want to help. Different people are going to take different approaches to helping and different people are going to respond to different approaches. Your a softy, I'm not. Oh and as a side-note I don't mean "softy" as an insult, please don't read it that way.
It's not fat shaming in your example however you'd need a LOT of context in order to make the determination that an obese person is obese due to blaming external factors, and a major point of this post is to urge people to consider the context and stop assuming you know for a fact that the obese person is just lazy and lacking personal responsibility because it's a potentially ignorant assumption.
Thats fair, I don't actually disagree with you really. Just bringing up points for discussion. Empathy is a requirement for being able to connect with someone enough to have a meaningful discssion.
It's also a remarkably useful character trait/skill when coaching someone and the fitness sphere would likely benefit from more of it.
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Aaron_K123 wrote: »You make a lot of good points.
I hope you're not saying it's impossible for Margarets to lose weight. It's not. Apologies if you think you'd made that obvious.
I'm sure as a PT you take a different approach to Margaret as to Chad.
Likewise as MFP Community posters, we need to reply to each poster differently depending on the individual's circumstances. A lot of tips and tricks are more appropriate for Margaret than they are for Chad and vice versa.
I feel I must also point out that in my innumerable hours spent in this forum, I can't recall an outright instance of fat-shaming.
I'm not at all saying it's impossible for Margaret or anyone else to succeed.
I'm also not removing the importance of personal responsibility.
Fat shaming doesn't happen often at all on these forums which is quite fortunate and if it did I trust the moderators would handle it as they're pretty good overall here.
Your sides may be steel but you are a big softy man. You care and that shows and that is going to work for a lot of people, but not for everyone. For some its just going to help reinforce their belief that outside forces are to blame for their condition rather than taking steps towards taking ownership and responsibility. I also care, but I don't think I could call myself a softy...I'm rather blunt and I will call someone out for not taking responsibility for their actions. For some that might shut them down and make them feel like withdrawing, for others it may be a wake up call. Is that "fat shaming" if I do so to an obese person who is putting a lot of energy into blaming external factors for their condition but not a lot into doing anything to change that condition? I guess that judgement rests in others but I'd like to think not. I think fat shaming is done by people who want to feel better about themselves not those who want to help. Different people are going to take different approaches to helping and different people are going to respond to different approaches. Your a softy, I'm not. Oh and as a side-note I don't mean "softy" as an insult, please don't read it that way.
Dammit, where were people like you when I was a 13 year old fatty? No, I had to wait until I was 26, and have someone on the internet tell me how disgusting I was before I got the point.
Seriously, the enabling and reaffirmation that I saw when I was a kid, in retrospect, should probably be treated as abuse. Some call it being nice, polite, PC, or what the *kitten* ever. I call it destructive coddling *kitten*, flat out.3 -
Simply Amazing Post. My old trainer used to say to me if "fat women" cared as much about their bodies as they do about their false nails and manicures, they wouldn't be fat any longer. I informed him that having their nails done - whether you like fake nails or not - was something that they could control. And it made them feel good.
This post really was fabulous - thank-you so much! - Big Hug from Toronto!5 -
cross2bear wrote: »mysteps2beauty wrote: »My take....don't have kids unless you absolutely can care for them by yourself, and have great life insurance in case.
#1 reason why women are poor, usually overweight with no time for themselves is because they have a kid or two, or three. If I could get into the face of as many high school females as I could this is what I would share. Margaret has a degree in Mathematics, but since the degree wasn't a doctorate, and had no clue the sperm donor would vacate and leave her nothing, she couldn't save her from her situation because she had kids to care for by herself.
And look at Chad....if he had kids, he's not getting fat cause he didn't physically have them, nor is at home with the kids. He is out building a business, networking, socializing, probably without the ball and chain and the rug rats.
I love kids, I have one, and I love her and sacrificed so much for her. But I knew if I did not make a great income beforehand, our lives could have been much like Margaret. I still put on weight cause after work and homework and dinner, there's an exhausted Mom who has to start over again the next day, get kid ready, drop kid off at childcare/school, then get to work by 9:00 so that you can leave by 5:00 to get the kid before the 6:00p deadline (or you're paying $5 each minute you're late.
Unless you're a single dad, most men have not a clue. They are being Chad.
I find this post really offensive - maybe Margaret did have a partner at one time, but he's dead. And didnt have insurance. Now she is an economically disadvantaged single mother. She stayed home to look after the kids while her husband was alive, and now her skills are stale.
It could also have been a single father in the same situation, staying home because his wife had a better paying job.
It is so smug to think that single mothers are simply breeders. You cannot know the many circumstances that leave women particularly in these situations. Have a little compassion.
Yes, it is possible she didn't plan ahead. The point is she should have planned ahead. However, it is too late now and she has an enormous hole to dig out of.It is so smug to think that single mothers are simply breeders.
They are breeders. So are married mothers. Anyone who has kids is a breeder, by definition. It isn't some "smug" viewpoint, it is a fact.
The greater point is that Margaret failed to think about what it would take to have kids and plan ahead. I see this quite often myself - neighbors and even relatives. Usually, they are all excited to have a kid and think life will be great, but don't think about the details of what it will take to properly care for the kid and themselves as well. That part totally slips their mind. Societal pressure to breed doesn't help. If there was more talk about the challenges of kids rather than primarily the discussion of the joy of children, then Margaret might have considered this and planned better. So yes, Margaret really screwed up and the situation she is in is her own fault, though there were external contributions.
Having said that, it still does no good to bring up to Margaret about how she contributed to her own challenges over-coming obesity. She can't go back in time and have a re-do. Empathizing with the challenges she is now facing is still important. She still faces significantly more challenges than Chad and her solution is not as clear.5 -
When I gained a bunch of weight, I had a big corporate job, a gym membership, personal training sessions to use, and a ton of resources. I never did anything. I didn't go to the gym, didn't use my training sessions, didn't grocery shop, cook, or do much of anything except order really unhealthy food to be delivered to my door. I had no motivation, NO idea where to start, was unhappy about my weight, and no idea how to eat or exercise properly. As a college educated, fairly intelligent, corporate professional without kids.
It took leaving a job, moving to a new area, having a ton of time on my hands, finding a fitness class I loved, and finding an amazing trainer to really get me on a good path and change my life. It did require time to grocery shop, cook at home, go to classes, and the financial resources to pay for a fitness membership and a personal trainer. But the biggest thing for me was having time and limited stress to really change habits and make lifelong changes. I didn't have a spouse or kids or a job or really anything else to focus on. Yes, NOW I can implement those changes even while busy, tired, or stressed because I've learned so much and have structure and have built so many good habits to fall back on.
But I had tried and failed so many times before I changed my environment and other aspects of my life. I have total empathy and appreciation for what a struggle it is with limited resources and means to make positive changes. I had so many things available to me and I STILL couldn't do it, that I can see what a struggle it would be to have so many obstacles and challenges just to get to a point where changes can be made, especially without losing motivation.5 -
Thank you for your insightful post. It's nice to meet people who don't just fat-shame and attribute everything to laziness.
I have noticed that it is a self-perpetuating issue. I overeat, it makes me lethargic and I gain weight. That extra weight makes it harder to get up and exercise, it also makes me self conscious and less likely to go to the gym. The inactivity makes me tired. Being tired makes me eat more- and so on.
This snowballs until you are living an episode of 'my 600 pound life'.
The real trick is breaking the cycle.
I notice that once I make a habit of exercising and I cut the garbage out of my diet... there is an early period of soreness and being tired and depressed... but eventually I get through that and notice the energy I get from exercising replaces the energy I used to get from overloading on sugar and caffeine.
I think that's where the overweight and obese can benefit from a fitness trainer like you- they need someone who understands all of this and helps them power through the hard parts. Keep up the good work Side Steel.
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Wickglamgirl wrote: »Simply Amazing Post. My old trainer used to say to me if "fat women" cared as much about their bodies as they do about their false nails and manicures, they wouldn't be fat any longer. I informed him that having their nails done - whether you like fake nails or not - was something that they could control. And it made them feel good.
This post really was fabulous - thank-you so much! - Big Hug from Toronto!
They can also control their weight, if they bothered to try. Your point made no sense.3 -
Gallowmere1984 wrote: »Wickglamgirl wrote: »Simply Amazing Post. My old trainer used to say to me if "fat women" cared as much about their bodies as they do about their false nails and manicures, they wouldn't be fat any longer. I informed him that having their nails done - whether you like fake nails or not - was something that they could control. And it made them feel good.
This post really was fabulous - thank-you so much! - Big Hug from Toronto!
They can also control their weight, if they bothered to try. Your point made no sense.
so if they try, they will succeed?
Do you truly believe this?1 -
Gallowmere1984 wrote: »Wickglamgirl wrote: »Simply Amazing Post. My old trainer used to say to me if "fat women" cared as much about their bodies as they do about their false nails and manicures, they wouldn't be fat any longer. I informed him that having their nails done - whether you like fake nails or not - was something that they could control. And it made them feel good.
This post really was fabulous - thank-you so much! - Big Hug from Toronto!
They can also control their weight, if they bothered to try. Your point made no sense.
so if they try, they will succeed?
Do you truly believe this?
A legitimate effort, incorporating caloric restriction and eventually balance? Yes.
The half-assed crap that most people try for years before accepting reality? Nope.4 -
Gallowmere1984 wrote: »Gallowmere1984 wrote: »Wickglamgirl wrote: »Simply Amazing Post. My old trainer used to say to me if "fat women" cared as much about their bodies as they do about their false nails and manicures, they wouldn't be fat any longer. I informed him that having their nails done - whether you like fake nails or not - was something that they could control. And it made them feel good.
This post really was fabulous - thank-you so much! - Big Hug from Toronto!
They can also control their weight, if they bothered to try. Your point made no sense.
so if they try, they will succeed?
Do you truly believe this?
A legitimate effort, incorporating caloric restriction and eventually balance? Yes.
The half-assed crap that most people try for years before accepting reality? Nope.
Got it, I'll just tell my clients to try harder.
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Gallowmere1984 wrote: »Gallowmere1984 wrote: »Wickglamgirl wrote: »Simply Amazing Post. My old trainer used to say to me if "fat women" cared as much about their bodies as they do about their false nails and manicures, they wouldn't be fat any longer. I informed him that having their nails done - whether you like fake nails or not - was something that they could control. And it made them feel good.
This post really was fabulous - thank-you so much! - Big Hug from Toronto!
They can also control their weight, if they bothered to try. Your point made no sense.
so if they try, they will succeed?
Do you truly believe this?
A legitimate effort, incorporating caloric restriction and eventually balance? Yes.
The half-assed crap that most people try for years before accepting reality? Nope.
Got it, I'll just tell my clients to try harder.
Just want to point out that it is possible to lose weight or be at normal weight while poor, chronically ill, fatigued,etc. Other than the child I have as many barriers as Margaret but I don't use it as an excuse to not care about my health2 -
Well we can't say if they try they'll succeed
But we can promise that if they don't try they won't
And we can believe in Yoda ...do or do not, there is no try
For empathy is fine, sympathy can even be well placed, but it never moved mountains ..that takes commitment and work6 -
singingflutelady wrote: »Gallowmere1984 wrote: »Gallowmere1984 wrote: »Wickglamgirl wrote: »Simply Amazing Post. My old trainer used to say to me if "fat women" cared as much about their bodies as they do about their false nails and manicures, they wouldn't be fat any longer. I informed him that having their nails done - whether you like fake nails or not - was something that they could control. And it made them feel good.
This post really was fabulous - thank-you so much! - Big Hug from Toronto!
They can also control their weight, if they bothered to try. Your point made no sense.
so if they try, they will succeed?
Do you truly believe this?
A legitimate effort, incorporating caloric restriction and eventually balance? Yes.
The half-assed crap that most people try for years before accepting reality? Nope.
Got it, I'll just tell my clients to try harder.
So you don't believe in cico? If someone can't lose weight at all with calorie restriction and exercise than I would question if they are being dishonest about their intake.
Pretty much this. Steel, you know as well as I do, that most of those who don't lose weight are lying to you out of one side of their mouth while sneakily shoving Ben and Jerry's into the other.2 -
Gallowmere1984 wrote: »Gallowmere1984 wrote: »Wickglamgirl wrote: »Simply Amazing Post. My old trainer used to say to me if "fat women" cared as much about their bodies as they do about their false nails and manicures, they wouldn't be fat any longer. I informed him that having their nails done - whether you like fake nails or not - was something that they could control. And it made them feel good.
This post really was fabulous - thank-you so much! - Big Hug from Toronto!
They can also control their weight, if they bothered to try. Your point made no sense.
so if they try, they will succeed?
Do you truly believe this?
A legitimate effort, incorporating caloric restriction and eventually balance? Yes.
The half-assed crap that most people try for years before accepting reality? Nope.
Got it, I'll just tell my clients to try harder.
My trainer tells me to just give up
It gets me riled and stubborn
You tell your clients what you know will speak to their psyche, and it will not be the same for everyone, and it will not cross cultural boundaries...the emphasis is in personal...you know what makes them try harder1 -
Gallowmere1984 wrote: »singingflutelady wrote: »Gallowmere1984 wrote: »Gallowmere1984 wrote: »Wickglamgirl wrote: »Simply Amazing Post. My old trainer used to say to me if "fat women" cared as much about their bodies as they do about their false nails and manicures, they wouldn't be fat any longer. I informed him that having their nails done - whether you like fake nails or not - was something that they could control. And it made them feel good.
This post really was fabulous - thank-you so much! - Big Hug from Toronto!
They can also control their weight, if they bothered to try. Your point made no sense.
so if they try, they will succeed?
Do you truly believe this?
A legitimate effort, incorporating caloric restriction and eventually balance? Yes.
The half-assed crap that most people try for years before accepting reality? Nope.
Got it, I'll just tell my clients to try harder.
So you don't believe in cico? If someone can't lose weight at all with calorie restriction and exercise than I would question if they are being dishonest about their intake.
Pretty much this. Steel, you know as well as I do, that most of those who don't lose weight are lying to you out of one side of their mouth while sneakily shoving Ben and Jerry's into the other.
Logging inaccuracies are not necessarily a function of honesty and it is critically important to not assume that it is a matter of honesty as you are doing right now.
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singingflutelady wrote: »Gallowmere1984 wrote: »Gallowmere1984 wrote: »Wickglamgirl wrote: »Simply Amazing Post. My old trainer used to say to me if "fat women" cared as much about their bodies as they do about their false nails and manicures, they wouldn't be fat any longer. I informed him that having their nails done - whether you like fake nails or not - was something that they could control. And it made them feel good.
This post really was fabulous - thank-you so much! - Big Hug from Toronto!
They can also control their weight, if they bothered to try. Your point made no sense.
so if they try, they will succeed?
Do you truly believe this?
A legitimate effort, incorporating caloric restriction and eventually balance? Yes.
The half-assed crap that most people try for years before accepting reality? Nope.
Got it, I'll just tell my clients to try harder.
Just want to point out that it is possible to lose weight or be at normal weight while poor, chronically ill, fatigued,etc. Other than the child I have as many barriers as Margaret but I don't use it as an excuse to not care about my health
I agree
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lemurcat12 wrote: »I think I wasn't quite following the context/point that was being made, but my reaction was similar to Sue's (as noted by my quoting and agreeing with her). I absolutely think there are many complex reasons why people get fat or have trouble losing weight (including priorities, and sometimes I think it's totally sensible or unavoidable not to prioritize other things), but I also think it's really easy to think (wrongfully) I can't and use the excuses as reasons not to act, and when we get into these kinds of discussions I get nervous (as Sue indicated) about where the line is drawn.
I also think obesity is a bigger issue among those who are disadvantaged economically (it's extremely obvious in my city, for example, that obesity is tied up with income/poverty and also race and various social issues), but in the US it's such a common problem that assuming it's about that seems also problematic to me.
As for:But as you can see in this example, the playing field is NOT, AT ALL level. It is MUCH easier for some people (like Chad) to make health promoting choices and there are factors that DO NOT involve personal choice that may have a substantial impact on overall success at fat loss.
Of course this is true. I don't think we know who had it harder or easier, though, when it comes to individual people on this forum. And I don't think (and don't think you were saying) that a Margaret cannot lose weight.If you reduce obesity to the notion that people with obesity are just lazy, or dumb, or “just don’t care enough” you are willfully ignoring an overwhelming amount of influencing factors including but not limited to socioeconomic influences, genetic influences, environmental influences, individual psychological factors, and a laundry list of other things that make the playing field remarkably skewed, so to speak.
Sure, but I am someone who has been obese and who has been tempted to make excuses to myself at times or who just did not care enough to change at times (and doesn't think that makes me a terrible person, since I cared about other things that we more important to me at the time, and I also don't think someone who is fat must mind deeply about being fat -- it's hard for people who have always cared about being in shape to realize, maybe, but not everyone does or find it painful). For me, being able to see that certain things are things I am making choices about, whether or not they are hard to change, in my power to change at the moment, etc., is actually empowering to me. Saying "I am fat because it is harder for me than others" would not be helpful.
I think some people may be (carelessly or simply because it's hard) trying to say this, and yet getting taken as being negative toward those who are still working on it.Obesity is the result of fat accumulation caused by chronic overconsumption of calories.
It is not however, exclusively a function of how bad you want it, or how intelligent you are.
Agreed -- when I was fat I wasn't dumb at all or ignorant about how I got fat. Nor was I lazy (I worked really really hard at lots of things, things I considered more important than my weight and still do, actually).
It was true to say that I didn't want it bad enough to make it a priority, though. For example, when I quit drinking I let myself eat in a much more unrestricted way than I had before, because I was scared that being too strict would mess with the shaky hold I had on my sobriety at the time. I didn't want staying thin "enough" in the sense that I wouldn't prioritize it over other things, yeah. I don't see that as bad or stupid or about laziness.
Ultimately, I think with weight loss people have to hit a point where they really care enough to do what they need to do or not. How much this is depends -- for some it's nothing, as it's just living as they always have and find natural and like and which is consistent with their habits (and ideally we all get there). But saying "if you don't feel like you can do it" (as some people indicate when they say can't can't can't about everything suggested) isn't, IMO, saying you are lazy. It's saying maybe you aren't ready to make any changes yet, and that's okay, it's a choice. But if you want, it doesn't have to be as hard as you may think and here are some ideas.
I don't disagree with anything you just said.
Unfortunately I think several people are reading things that are not written in the post or ignoring things that are expressly stated.
Just to clarify, since I got distracted by what seemed to be others tagging on to your post to call me non-empathetic (although I may have been wrong to take it that way, so asked them to clarify too), I wasn't meaning to necessarily say that you were saying Margaret could not lose weight or that excuses are great or anything like that. I was more trying to address why I had the same kind of uncomfortable reaction to your post that Sued did.
I think it's because having looked at this more as a (formerly) fat person (who regained at one point in my life, yeah) than a fitness professional (although someone interested in helping others), I get sensitive about the idea that I had bigger stumbling blocks than others or couldn't help being fat (which I know was not really what you are saying). I think I want to be careful not to fall into excuses, and I have seen myself making them (and others, who I knew well enough to have more insight into) making them. I do think we can make things easier and less easy and understanding what is hard and helping with that is more, well, helpful, than saying "you just are lazy if you won't do it my way" or "guess you don't want it enough," of course.
That said, it really was revelatory for me when I was whining about being fat one day and a friend said "why don't you do something about it, then?" I realized, geez, I could. I mean, maybe I don't feel like I can right now for 48 different reasons, but fundamentally it IS something I have control over and can work on doing what I need to do. Of course, what I also realized in addressing it was that there are hurdles that make it harder that I had to work on (for me, a lot of psychological ones, for example), but having that realization that geez, it is something in my control was important. It wasn't something done to me that I was stuck with. That freed me to start working on what I needed to work on (indirectly at times).
Not at all saying that you are disagreeing here, but working out some thoughts.
I DO think not being ready is a thing, though, and rather than beating yourself up for not doing things you will never do when you aren't ready (by which I don't mean you are dumb or lazy), it often helps someone to step back and say "I'm not ready, I'm not choosing to do this now, why not?"
None of this is meant to say that it's harder for lots of reasons for some people than others, that they have more time, money, opportunity, knowledge, emotional health, whatever, or that we can't address some physical barriers (like availability of food which I think it probably less of a reason for obesity in reality but think is a good thing to change anyway--I'm quite interested in these issues locally and they are tough ones from a social working POV since of course it does sometimes seem like someone else's values are being pushed).0 -
Gallowmere1984 wrote: »singingflutelady wrote: »Gallowmere1984 wrote: »Gallowmere1984 wrote: »Wickglamgirl wrote: »Simply Amazing Post. My old trainer used to say to me if "fat women" cared as much about their bodies as they do about their false nails and manicures, they wouldn't be fat any longer. I informed him that having their nails done - whether you like fake nails or not - was something that they could control. And it made them feel good.
This post really was fabulous - thank-you so much! - Big Hug from Toronto!
They can also control their weight, if they bothered to try. Your point made no sense.
so if they try, they will succeed?
Do you truly believe this?
A legitimate effort, incorporating caloric restriction and eventually balance? Yes.
The half-assed crap that most people try for years before accepting reality? Nope.
Got it, I'll just tell my clients to try harder.
So you don't believe in cico? If someone can't lose weight at all with calorie restriction and exercise than I would question if they are being dishonest about their intake.
Pretty much this. Steel, you know as well as I do, that most of those who don't lose weight are lying to you out of one side of their mouth while sneakily shoving Ben and Jerry's into the other.
No, I've been there with incredibly meticulous logging and no losses. When people don't have an answer for why a current plan isn't working, so they just default to, "You must be lying on your logging." Because it is too hard to admit, "I don't know" or to acknowledge that CICO is not as simple as they want to argue. Or, in my case, they say, "It must be your medical issue" despite having very little or no knowledge at all about the specific issue. In other words, CICO purists have only 2 answers to those challenged with weight loss:
1. If logging shows too much CI compared to CO, the answer is to cut CI or increase CO.
2. If logging shows CI is less than CO and should result in a loss, but doesn't, the answer is that they must be lying. This answer is not helpful. In fact, it is hurtful and it would be better to just not respond at all.5 -
Gallowmere1984 wrote: »singingflutelady wrote: »Gallowmere1984 wrote: »Gallowmere1984 wrote: »Wickglamgirl wrote: »Simply Amazing Post. My old trainer used to say to me if "fat women" cared as much about their bodies as they do about their false nails and manicures, they wouldn't be fat any longer. I informed him that having their nails done - whether you like fake nails or not - was something that they could control. And it made them feel good.
This post really was fabulous - thank-you so much! - Big Hug from Toronto!
They can also control their weight, if they bothered to try. Your point made no sense.
so if they try, they will succeed?
Do you truly believe this?
A legitimate effort, incorporating caloric restriction and eventually balance? Yes.
The half-assed crap that most people try for years before accepting reality? Nope.
Got it, I'll just tell my clients to try harder.
So you don't believe in cico? If someone can't lose weight at all with calorie restriction and exercise than I would question if they are being dishonest about their intake.
Pretty much this. Steel, you know as well as I do, that most of those who don't lose weight are lying to you out of one side of their mouth while sneakily shoving Ben and Jerry's into the other.
Logging inaccuracies are not necessarily a function of honesty and it is critically important to not assume that it is a matter of honesty as you are doing right now.
Agreed. However, there's logging inaccuracies, and then there's "this person gained a pound in the last week when their planned deficit is strong enough to cause a loss of two". So long as we recognize the difference, there's no disagreement.0 -
@lemurcat12
Just for what it is worth I did not think the empathy comments were directed at your posts.1
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