Obesity. Are you just lazy and dumb?
Replies
-
Thanks for the post and good discussion. It hits home for a couple reasons.
1) A part of me wonders if poverty is the underlying driver of many negative outcomes -- in health, elementary education, employment prospects, ability to avoid incarceration (don't laugh). I'm not saying poverty is the sole cause, or excuse, but my observation is an incident that would be nothing to a wealthy person becomes a catastrophic spiral for an impoverished person. I've worked with very affluent people, in a really depressed part of my city with kids in gangs, and in my county jail. I've had more than one employee not show up for work because they died in their apartment of an untreated chronic condition -- no access to medical care unless you go to the ER--which believe me, is not free for the uninsured. Nor does the ER treat chronic conditions like cancer or hypertension or any of the biggest killers in the US. I digress.
My non-scientific observation is affluent people (e.g. those who can afford >$100k annually to send their kids to private school before college) are pretty fit. Less affluent people are overweight or obese at a much higher rate. To be clear, I am not saying being smart or fit makes you rich (or the converse) but that there are tons of opportunities for the rich and obstacles for the poor. Also, the obesity -food insecurity connection has been well studied and documented for over a decade in many countries.
Among other things, I think good old-fashioned peer pressure is part of it.
I grew up mostly middle class, but really financially insecure at times, because my dad lost a bunch of money in various ways, was an alcoholic and not in stable employment most of my childhood, and my mother worked a lot but didn't make that much money. Lucky for me, though, both of my parents were smart and thought education was a priority.
Despite whatever else was going on, it was social norms in my family (this was the '70s and '80s) that a family would sit down to a home cooked dinner together, that you would eat vegetables, that you wouldn't snack too much or spoil the dinner, that going out was a rare thing (for food, at least) and so on. Also, go outside and play, be active! Oh, and there was a social stigma against being overweight, and it was rare.
I now live in an upper-middle class environment (neighborhood, job) where obesity is really, really rare, despite it being common in my city overall. What I see is the same social stigma against obesity (even more so, comparatively), a real focus by parents on eating healthfully and lots of veg, etc. (much more so than when I was a kid, again, it's like a class marker I think), a focus on being active and doing active things together as families (or bringing the kids to all kinds of things that involve activity--just running around outside is harder). I was overweight (stressful job, no time, lots of tempting high cal foods) and realized that it just wasn't okay -- everyone else had the same temptations but fit in activity, didn't eat too much--again, social status and probably relevant to job success in some ways. (I struggled anyway for various reasons, but seeing that others had the same issues and were thin helped me understand both that I should lose and could.)
I know a variety of people in other environments, both middle or lower middle class (relatives, others) and truly poor, and I think a lot of the social structure and stigma is gone. It's not considered being a bad parent/irresponsible to not insist on certain ways of eating as it was when I was a kid or in the social environment I live in now, and also it's not considered a big deal to be overweight in the same way. (To the point that I see quite obese people showing off their bodies happily in a way that wouldn't have happened when I was growing up and that I can't imagine being comfortable with personally, as I'm more critical of my own flaws -- not saying this is good, but it probably affects what you are okay with in terms of weight gain.) Yeah, lots of people maybe want to lose, but not necessarily and not at the same weights. It's more comfortable to be overweight so harder to care about. And social life doesn't revolve around active pursuits as much as it can in my neighborhood (although there's less difference here).
I do think that it's also easier if you have more money, of course -- so many things are easier. But a think a lot of it is social environment and norms. I kind of feel like we aren't supposed to say this, though.2 -
Here's my (probably oversimplified) interpretation of OP: don't be a D-bag.
eta: It didn't really seem to be about excuses or whether or not any particular person could lose/gain weight and/or better his/her health. Rather, simply acknowledging that people have different circumstances that affect how effectively/efficiently they can do so. Also, the fact that people will have different goals, so you can't just assume something.
Perhaps I'm wrong.7 -
I'm not at all saying it's impossible for Margaret or anyone else to succeed.
I'm also not removing the importance of personal responsibility.
Fat shaming doesn't happen often at all on these forums which is quite fortunate and if it did I trust the moderators would handle it as they're pretty good overall here.
Your sides may be steel but you are a big softy man. You care and that shows and that is going to work for a lot of people, but not for everyone. For some its just going to help reinforce their belief that outside forces are to blame for their condition rather than taking steps towards taking ownership and responsibility. I also care, but I don't think I could call myself a softy...I'm rather blunt and I will call someone out for not taking responsibility for their actions. For some that might shut them down and make them feel like withdrawing, for others it may be a wake up call. Is that "fat shaming" if I do so to an obese person who is putting a lot of energy into blaming external factors for their condition but not a lot into doing anything to change that condition? I guess that judgement rests in others but I'd like to think not. I think fat shaming is done by people who want to feel better about themselves not those who want to help. Different people are going to take different approaches to helping and different people are going to respond to different approaches. Your a softy, I'm not. Oh and as a side-note I don't mean "softy" as an insult, please don't read it that way.2 -
I think people are letting their own insecurities get in the way of a solid discussion.
Um, maybe I'm being insecure here, but I don't see how my comments to SideSteel got in the way of a solid discussion (and I mention this since you tagged on to that interchange). Perhaps I was misreading him and we agree more than I thought -- my point was really to express some uncertainty as to the point or even conflict in my own thoughts than to take issue with him, after all.Empathy is a difficult skill to master for many and you can see that on full display here.
To what does this refer? I won't assume by the placement of the post.1 -
Aaron_K123 wrote: »
Your sides may be steel but you are a big softy man. You care and that shows and that is going to work for a lot of people, but not for everyone. I also care, but I don't think I could call myself a softy...I'm rather blunt and I will call someone out for not taking responsibility for their actions. Is that "fat shaming" if I do so to an obese person who is putting a lot of energy into blaming external factors for their condition but not a lot into doing anything to change that condition? I guess that judgement rests in others but I'd like to think not. I think fat shaming is done by people who want to feel better about themselves not those who want to help. Different people are going to take different approaches to helping and different people are going to respond to different approaches. Your a softy, I'm not. Oh and as a side-note I don't mean "softy" as an insult, please don't read it that way.
It's not fat shaming in your example however you'd need a LOT of context in order to make the determination that an obese person is obese due to blaming external factors, and a major point of this post is to urge people to consider the context and stop assuming you know for a fact that the obese person is just lazy and lacking personal responsibility because it's a potentially ignorant assumption.6 -
Great reply, and empathy is something that is sorely lacking in the fitness community especially from some fitness professionals and it was one of the reasons for this post.
And I have said this multiple times and I even mentioned in the thread but people seemed to conveniently ignore it, (not you) there absolutely are people who make excuses, and don't care enough and do not accept personal responsibility.
But it's unfair to assume that this is the case for everybody.
It is also unfair to assume that when someone speaks about not making excuses that they are saying that everyone who gets fat did so as a result of making excuses. If you don't mean to say that, great, but I really don't see people in this discussion who are lacking empathy, so if people want to toss around such accusations I would hope that it would be specific, so we could maybe clarify.
A great many of us in this discussion have struggled with being overweight or obese.3 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »
It is also unfair to assume that when someone speaks about not making excuses that they are saying that everyone who gets fat did so as a result of making excuses. If you don't mean to say that, great, but I really don't see people in this discussion who are lacking empathy, so if people want to toss around such accusations I would hope that it would be specific, so we could maybe clarify.
A great many of us in this discussion have struggled with being overweight or obese.
Yes this.0 -
MOTIVATING!!!!0
-
It's not fat shaming in your example however you'd need a LOT of context in order to make the determination that an obese person is obese due to blaming external factors, and a major point of this post is to urge people to consider the context and stop assuming you know for a fact that the obese person is just lazy and lacking personal responsibility because it's a potentially ignorant assumption.
Thats fair, I don't actually disagree with you really. Just bringing up points for discussion. Empathy is a requirement for being able to connect with someone enough to have a meaningful discssion.2 -
I'm fat because I am lazy. That's not some sort of passive aggressive thing that I am trying to use to call other people out.
I am clinically obese because I like drinking beer and eating more than I like doing burpees and pushups.
I'm trying to become less lazy and fat. The more I exercise and eat right, the more I like it. That doesn't lessen how much I like being lazy.
Many people are obese because they are just Lazy and dumb (like me).
4 -
Aaron_K123 wrote: »
Thats fair, I don't actually disagree with you really. Just bringing up points for discussion. Empathy is a requirement for being able to connect with someone enough to have a meaningful discssion.
It's also a remarkably useful character trait/skill when coaching someone and the fitness sphere would likely benefit from more of it.
3 -
Aaron_K123 wrote: »
Your sides may be steel but you are a big softy man. You care and that shows and that is going to work for a lot of people, but not for everyone. For some its just going to help reinforce their belief that outside forces are to blame for their condition rather than taking steps towards taking ownership and responsibility. I also care, but I don't think I could call myself a softy...I'm rather blunt and I will call someone out for not taking responsibility for their actions. For some that might shut them down and make them feel like withdrawing, for others it may be a wake up call. Is that "fat shaming" if I do so to an obese person who is putting a lot of energy into blaming external factors for their condition but not a lot into doing anything to change that condition? I guess that judgement rests in others but I'd like to think not. I think fat shaming is done by people who want to feel better about themselves not those who want to help. Different people are going to take different approaches to helping and different people are going to respond to different approaches. Your a softy, I'm not. Oh and as a side-note I don't mean "softy" as an insult, please don't read it that way.
Dammit, where were people like you when I was a 13 year old fatty? No, I had to wait until I was 26, and have someone on the internet tell me how disgusting I was before I got the point.
Seriously, the enabling and reaffirmation that I saw when I was a kid, in retrospect, should probably be treated as abuse. Some call it being nice, polite, PC, or what the *kitten* ever. I call it destructive coddling *kitten*, flat out.3 -
Simply Amazing Post. My old trainer used to say to me if "fat women" cared as much about their bodies as they do about their false nails and manicures, they wouldn't be fat any longer. I informed him that having their nails done - whether you like fake nails or not - was something that they could control. And it made them feel good.
This post really was fabulous - thank-you so much! - Big Hug from Toronto!5 -
cross2bear wrote: »
I find this post really offensive - maybe Margaret did have a partner at one time, but he's dead. And didnt have insurance. Now she is an economically disadvantaged single mother. She stayed home to look after the kids while her husband was alive, and now her skills are stale.
It could also have been a single father in the same situation, staying home because his wife had a better paying job.
It is so smug to think that single mothers are simply breeders. You cannot know the many circumstances that leave women particularly in these situations. Have a little compassion.
Yes, it is possible she didn't plan ahead. The point is she should have planned ahead. However, it is too late now and she has an enormous hole to dig out of.It is so smug to think that single mothers are simply breeders.
They are breeders. So are married mothers. Anyone who has kids is a breeder, by definition. It isn't some "smug" viewpoint, it is a fact.
The greater point is that Margaret failed to think about what it would take to have kids and plan ahead. I see this quite often myself - neighbors and even relatives. Usually, they are all excited to have a kid and think life will be great, but don't think about the details of what it will take to properly care for the kid and themselves as well. That part totally slips their mind. Societal pressure to breed doesn't help. If there was more talk about the challenges of kids rather than primarily the discussion of the joy of children, then Margaret might have considered this and planned better. So yes, Margaret really screwed up and the situation she is in is her own fault, though there were external contributions.
Having said that, it still does no good to bring up to Margaret about how she contributed to her own challenges over-coming obesity. She can't go back in time and have a re-do. Empathizing with the challenges she is now facing is still important. She still faces significantly more challenges than Chad and her solution is not as clear.5 -
When I gained a bunch of weight, I had a big corporate job, a gym membership, personal training sessions to use, and a ton of resources. I never did anything. I didn't go to the gym, didn't use my training sessions, didn't grocery shop, cook, or do much of anything except order really unhealthy food to be delivered to my door. I had no motivation, NO idea where to start, was unhappy about my weight, and no idea how to eat or exercise properly. As a college educated, fairly intelligent, corporate professional without kids.
It took leaving a job, moving to a new area, having a ton of time on my hands, finding a fitness class I loved, and finding an amazing trainer to really get me on a good path and change my life. It did require time to grocery shop, cook at home, go to classes, and the financial resources to pay for a fitness membership and a personal trainer. But the biggest thing for me was having time and limited stress to really change habits and make lifelong changes. I didn't have a spouse or kids or a job or really anything else to focus on. Yes, NOW I can implement those changes even while busy, tired, or stressed because I've learned so much and have structure and have built so many good habits to fall back on.
But I had tried and failed so many times before I changed my environment and other aspects of my life. I have total empathy and appreciation for what a struggle it is with limited resources and means to make positive changes. I had so many things available to me and I STILL couldn't do it, that I can see what a struggle it would be to have so many obstacles and challenges just to get to a point where changes can be made, especially without losing motivation.5 -
Thank you for your insightful post. It's nice to meet people who don't just fat-shame and attribute everything to laziness.
I have noticed that it is a self-perpetuating issue. I overeat, it makes me lethargic and I gain weight. That extra weight makes it harder to get up and exercise, it also makes me self conscious and less likely to go to the gym. The inactivity makes me tired. Being tired makes me eat more- and so on.
This snowballs until you are living an episode of 'my 600 pound life'.
The real trick is breaking the cycle.
I notice that once I make a habit of exercising and I cut the garbage out of my diet... there is an early period of soreness and being tired and depressed... but eventually I get through that and notice the energy I get from exercising replaces the energy I used to get from overloading on sugar and caffeine.
I think that's where the overweight and obese can benefit from a fitness trainer like you- they need someone who understands all of this and helps them power through the hard parts. Keep up the good work Side Steel.
2 -
Wickglamgirl wrote: »Simply Amazing Post. My old trainer used to say to me if "fat women" cared as much about their bodies as they do about their false nails and manicures, they wouldn't be fat any longer. I informed him that having their nails done - whether you like fake nails or not - was something that they could control. And it made them feel good.
This post really was fabulous - thank-you so much! - Big Hug from Toronto!
They can also control their weight, if they bothered to try. Your point made no sense.3 -
Gallowmere1984 wrote: »
They can also control their weight, if they bothered to try. Your point made no sense.
so if they try, they will succeed?
Do you truly believe this?1 -
A legitimate effort, incorporating caloric restriction and eventually balance? Yes.
The half-assed crap that most people try for years before accepting reality? Nope.4 -
Gallowmere1984 wrote: »
A legitimate effort, incorporating caloric restriction and eventually balance? Yes.
The half-assed crap that most people try for years before accepting reality? Nope.
Got it, I'll just tell my clients to try harder.
5 -
Just want to point out that it is possible to lose weight or be at normal weight while poor, chronically ill, fatigued,etc. Other than the child I have as many barriers as Margaret but I don't use it as an excuse to not care about my health2 -
Well we can't say if they try they'll succeed
But we can promise that if they don't try they won't
And we can believe in Yoda ...do or do not, there is no try
For empathy is fine, sympathy can even be well placed, but it never moved mountains ..that takes commitment and work6 -
singingflutelady wrote: »
So you don't believe in cico? If someone can't lose weight at all with calorie restriction and exercise than I would question if they are being dishonest about their intake.
Pretty much this. Steel, you know as well as I do, that most of those who don't lose weight are lying to you out of one side of their mouth while sneakily shoving Ben and Jerry's into the other.2 -
My trainer tells me to just give up
It gets me riled and stubborn
You tell your clients what you know will speak to their psyche, and it will not be the same for everyone, and it will not cross cultural boundaries...the emphasis is in personal...you know what makes them try harder1 -
Gallowmere1984 wrote: »
Pretty much this. Steel, you know as well as I do, that most of those who don't lose weight are lying to you out of one side of their mouth while sneakily shoving Ben and Jerry's into the other.
Logging inaccuracies are not necessarily a function of honesty and it is critically important to not assume that it is a matter of honesty as you are doing right now.
5 -
singingflutelady wrote: »
Just want to point out that it is possible to lose weight or be at normal weight while poor, chronically ill, fatigued,etc. Other than the child I have as many barriers as Margaret but I don't use it as an excuse to not care about my health
I agree
0 -
I don't disagree with anything you just said.
Unfortunately I think several people are reading things that are not written in the post or ignoring things that are expressly stated.
Just to clarify, since I got distracted by what seemed to be others tagging on to your post to call me non-empathetic (although I may have been wrong to take it that way, so asked them to clarify too), I wasn't meaning to necessarily say that you were saying Margaret could not lose weight or that excuses are great or anything like that. I was more trying to address why I had the same kind of uncomfortable reaction to your post that Sued did.
I think it's because having looked at this more as a (formerly) fat person (who regained at one point in my life, yeah) than a fitness professional (although someone interested in helping others), I get sensitive about the idea that I had bigger stumbling blocks than others or couldn't help being fat (which I know was not really what you are saying). I think I want to be careful not to fall into excuses, and I have seen myself making them (and others, who I knew well enough to have more insight into) making them. I do think we can make things easier and less easy and understanding what is hard and helping with that is more, well, helpful, than saying "you just are lazy if you won't do it my way" or "guess you don't want it enough," of course.
That said, it really was revelatory for me when I was whining about being fat one day and a friend said "why don't you do something about it, then?" I realized, geez, I could. I mean, maybe I don't feel like I can right now for 48 different reasons, but fundamentally it IS something I have control over and can work on doing what I need to do. Of course, what I also realized in addressing it was that there are hurdles that make it harder that I had to work on (for me, a lot of psychological ones, for example), but having that realization that geez, it is something in my control was important. It wasn't something done to me that I was stuck with. That freed me to start working on what I needed to work on (indirectly at times).
Not at all saying that you are disagreeing here, but working out some thoughts.
I DO think not being ready is a thing, though, and rather than beating yourself up for not doing things you will never do when you aren't ready (by which I don't mean you are dumb or lazy), it often helps someone to step back and say "I'm not ready, I'm not choosing to do this now, why not?"
None of this is meant to say that it's harder for lots of reasons for some people than others, that they have more time, money, opportunity, knowledge, emotional health, whatever, or that we can't address some physical barriers (like availability of food which I think it probably less of a reason for obesity in reality but think is a good thing to change anyway--I'm quite interested in these issues locally and they are tough ones from a social working POV since of course it does sometimes seem like someone else's values are being pushed).0 -
Gallowmere1984 wrote: »
Pretty much this. Steel, you know as well as I do, that most of those who don't lose weight are lying to you out of one side of their mouth while sneakily shoving Ben and Jerry's into the other.
No, I've been there with incredibly meticulous logging and no losses. When people don't have an answer for why a current plan isn't working, so they just default to, "You must be lying on your logging." Because it is too hard to admit, "I don't know" or to acknowledge that CICO is not as simple as they want to argue. Or, in my case, they say, "It must be your medical issue" despite having very little or no knowledge at all about the specific issue. In other words, CICO purists have only 2 answers to those challenged with weight loss:
1. If logging shows too much CI compared to CO, the answer is to cut CI or increase CO.
2. If logging shows CI is less than CO and should result in a loss, but doesn't, the answer is that they must be lying. This answer is not helpful. In fact, it is hurtful and it would be better to just not respond at all.5 -
Logging inaccuracies are not necessarily a function of honesty and it is critically important to not assume that it is a matter of honesty as you are doing right now.
Agreed. However, there's logging inaccuracies, and then there's "this person gained a pound in the last week when their planned deficit is strong enough to cause a loss of two". So long as we recognize the difference, there's no disagreement.0 -
@lemurcat12
Just for what it is worth I did not think the empathy comments were directed at your posts.1
This discussion has been closed.
Categories
- All Categories
- 1.4M Health, Wellness and Goals
- 395.5K Introduce Yourself
- 44.1K Getting Started
- 260.7K Health and Weight Loss
- 176.2K Food and Nutrition
- 47.5K Recipes
- 232.7K Fitness and Exercise
- 445 Sleep, Mindfulness and Overall Wellness
- 6.5K Goal: Maintaining Weight
- 8.6K Goal: Gaining Weight and Body Building
- 153.2K Motivation and Support
- 8.2K Challenges
- 1.3K Debate Club
- 96.4K Chit-Chat
- 2.5K Fun and Games
- 4.3K MyFitnessPal Information
- 16 News and Announcements
- 1.3K Feature Suggestions and Ideas
- 2.9K MyFitnessPal Tech Support Questions