Obesity. Are you just lazy and dumb?

Options
12357…13

Replies

  • Gallowmere1984
    Gallowmere1984 Posts: 6,626 Member
    Options
    singingflutelady wrote: »
    What about us people who are very poor (I get $730 a month on disability) and chronically ill (with major fatigue on top of it)who don't use poverty and illness as an excuse and maintain a good weight despite having everything against us? I guess it's a miracle I'm not obese

    This is pretty much how I am forced to view it. I can't hear "I don't have the energy to" or "I don't feel like it" without it going through the Babel Fish and going into my brain as "I am physically and/or mentally lazy, and have no problem being a further burden upon society by not only eating food paid for by others, but so much of it that I get fat and hit up the healthcare system later for obesity related illness costs".
  • lemurcat12
    lemurcat12 Posts: 30,886 Member
    Options
    I think I wasn't quite following the context/point that was being made, but my reaction was similar to Sue's (as noted by my quoting and agreeing with her). I absolutely think there are many complex reasons why people get fat or have trouble losing weight (including priorities, and sometimes I think it's totally sensible or unavoidable not to prioritize other things), but I also think it's really easy to think (wrongfully) I can't and use the excuses as reasons not to act, and when we get into these kinds of discussions I get nervous (as Sue indicated) about where the line is drawn.

    I also think obesity is a bigger issue among those who are disadvantaged economically (it's extremely obvious in my city, for example, that obesity is tied up with income/poverty and also race and various social issues), but in the US it's such a common problem that assuming it's about that seems also problematic to me.

    As for:
    But as you can see in this example, the playing field is NOT, AT ALL level. It is MUCH easier for some people (like Chad) to make health promoting choices and there are factors that DO NOT involve personal choice that may have a substantial impact on overall success at fat loss.

    Of course this is true. I don't think we know who had it harder or easier, though, when it comes to individual people on this forum. And I don't think (and don't think you were saying) that a Margaret cannot lose weight.
    If you reduce obesity to the notion that people with obesity are just lazy, or dumb, or “just don’t care enough” you are willfully ignoring an overwhelming amount of influencing factors including but not limited to socioeconomic influences, genetic influences, environmental influences, individual psychological factors, and a laundry list of other things that make the playing field remarkably skewed, so to speak.

    Sure, but I am someone who has been obese and who has been tempted to make excuses to myself at times or who just did not care enough to change at times (and doesn't think that makes me a terrible person, since I cared about other things that we more important to me at the time, and I also don't think someone who is fat must mind deeply about being fat -- it's hard for people who have always cared about being in shape to realize, maybe, but not everyone does or find it painful). For me, being able to see that certain things are things I am making choices about, whether or not they are hard to change, in my power to change at the moment, etc., is actually empowering to me. Saying "I am fat because it is harder for me than others" would not be helpful.

    I think some people may be (carelessly or simply because it's hard) trying to say this, and yet getting taken as being negative toward those who are still working on it.
    Obesity is the result of fat accumulation caused by chronic overconsumption of calories.
    It is not however, exclusively a function of how bad you want it, or how intelligent you are.

    Agreed -- when I was fat I wasn't dumb at all or ignorant about how I got fat. Nor was I lazy (I worked really really hard at lots of things, things I considered more important than my weight and still do, actually).

    It was true to say that I didn't want it bad enough to make it a priority, though. For example, when I quit drinking I let myself eat in a much more unrestricted way than I had before, because I was scared that being too strict would mess with the shaky hold I had on my sobriety at the time. I didn't want staying thin "enough" in the sense that I wouldn't prioritize it over other things, yeah. I don't see that as bad or stupid or about laziness.

    Ultimately, I think with weight loss people have to hit a point where they really care enough to do what they need to do or not. How much this is depends -- for some it's nothing, as it's just living as they always have and find natural and like and which is consistent with their habits (and ideally we all get there). But saying "if you don't feel like you can do it" (as some people indicate when they say can't can't can't about everything suggested) isn't, IMO, saying you are lazy. It's saying maybe you aren't ready to make any changes yet, and that's okay, it's a choice. But if you want, it doesn't have to be as hard as you may think and here are some ideas.
  • Cbestinme
    Cbestinme Posts: 397 Member
    Options
    SideSteel wrote: »
    Check the study I linked in the original post as it references other pieces of research examining other areas/etc.

    ok SideSteel I get you are referring to the study in the link you gave above & copied here for easy reference:
    http://diabetes.diabetesjournals.org/content/60/11/2667

    I see in that study they do mention what I had understood is correct, that is:
    "High-income countries have greater rates of obesity than middle- and low-income countries (1). Countries that develop wealth also develop obesity; for instance, with economic growth in China and India, obesity rates have increased by several-fold (1). The international trend is that greater obesity tracks with greater wealth (2,3).
    ...
    In contrast to international trends, people in America who live in the most poverty-dense counties are those most prone to obesity    "


    The above snippet confirms what I understood about less affluent in US being more obese. That article you shared is very informative as it gives the multiple reasons that cause higher obesity among less privileged. I had not read this article before you shared it so very grateful for this thread. I'm not sure whether I am one of the last ones to understand this poverty and obesity linkages (especially for USA) but I would highly recommend that article as reading for anyone else who has ever wondered about obesity in USA.

    I also really liked the link that talks about obesity stigma (copied again for easy reference)
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2866597/
    "Negative attitudes toward obese persons are pervasive in North American society. Numerous studies have documented harmful weight-based stereotypes that overweight and obese individuals are lazy, weak-willed, unsuccessful, unintelligent, lack self-discipline, have poor willpower, and are noncompliant with weight-loss treatment"

    that is the opening of that article on stigma (which happens to be much longer than the one on linkages to poverty, so it could be hard to read on a phone)...

    more insights from that article:
    "Because weight-based stereotypes and prejudice so often emerge from attributions that obesity is caused and maintained by personal characteristics such as laziness or lack of willpower,10,47 there is a clear need for increased public awareness and education about the complex etiology of obesity and the significant obstacles present in efforts to achieve sustainable weight loss. The prevailing societal and media messages that reinforce blame on obese persons need to be replaced with messages that obesity is a chronic disease with a complex etiology, and a lifelong condition for most obese persons"

    I would also really highly recommend this article on stigma, as it is very possible that many well intending people may not be aware of these very complex issues you have brought to awareness. I notice that this second article on stigma is written in a highly credible scientific journal for public health. Given its scientific nature it is possible it is not widely read by persons outside that field of study, so that could also explain general lack of awareness.


    My opinion is that for many who may be coming from a place of privilege, coupled perhaps with a lack of awareness, it is possible that stigmatization would continue...

    I confess I am one who still struggles to understand obesity, and until I was myself labeled obese, I sat in a place of privilege to see obesity as a foreign concept that was impossible to understand. This thread is shedding so much light on the issues. Until I myself experienced what I think people on mfp refer to as "fat shaming" or well intended advice, blaming me for choosing to be obese, I couldn't possibly walk in another shoes. Until I heard and reflected on some famous words (I am human, nothing human can be alien to me), I couldn't possibly relate. My eyes, ears and heart are now open.

    I have been following threads on mfp for a couple of weeks now and I could be wrong, but I have sensed some of the stigmatization in some responses (which I am sure are well meaning). I think it is perhaps lack of awareness.

    I am learning so much through mfp, thanks!! :)

  • SideSteel
    SideSteel Posts: 11,068 Member
    Options
    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    I think I wasn't quite following the context/point that was being made, but my reaction was similar to Sue's (as noted by my quoting and agreeing with her). I absolutely think there are many complex reasons why people get fat or have trouble losing weight (including priorities, and sometimes I think it's totally sensible or unavoidable not to prioritize other things), but I also think it's really easy to think (wrongfully) I can't and use the excuses as reasons not to act, and when we get into these kinds of discussions I get nervous (as Sue indicated) about where the line is drawn.

    I also think obesity is a bigger issue among those who are disadvantaged economically (it's extremely obvious in my city, for example, that obesity is tied up with income/poverty and also race and various social issues), but in the US it's such a common problem that assuming it's about that seems also problematic to me.

    As for:
    But as you can see in this example, the playing field is NOT, AT ALL level. It is MUCH easier for some people (like Chad) to make health promoting choices and there are factors that DO NOT involve personal choice that may have a substantial impact on overall success at fat loss.

    Of course this is true. I don't think we know who had it harder or easier, though, when it comes to individual people on this forum. And I don't think (and don't think you were saying) that a Margaret cannot lose weight.
    If you reduce obesity to the notion that people with obesity are just lazy, or dumb, or “just don’t care enough” you are willfully ignoring an overwhelming amount of influencing factors including but not limited to socioeconomic influences, genetic influences, environmental influences, individual psychological factors, and a laundry list of other things that make the playing field remarkably skewed, so to speak.

    Sure, but I am someone who has been obese and who has been tempted to make excuses to myself at times or who just did not care enough to change at times (and doesn't think that makes me a terrible person, since I cared about other things that we more important to me at the time, and I also don't think someone who is fat must mind deeply about being fat -- it's hard for people who have always cared about being in shape to realize, maybe, but not everyone does or find it painful). For me, being able to see that certain things are things I am making choices about, whether or not they are hard to change, in my power to change at the moment, etc., is actually empowering to me. Saying "I am fat because it is harder for me than others" would not be helpful.

    I think some people may be (carelessly or simply because it's hard) trying to say this, and yet getting taken as being negative toward those who are still working on it.
    Obesity is the result of fat accumulation caused by chronic overconsumption of calories.
    It is not however, exclusively a function of how bad you want it, or how intelligent you are.

    Agreed -- when I was fat I wasn't dumb at all or ignorant about how I got fat. Nor was I lazy (I worked really really hard at lots of things, things I considered more important than my weight and still do, actually).

    It was true to say that I didn't want it bad enough to make it a priority, though. For example, when I quit drinking I let myself eat in a much more unrestricted way than I had before, because I was scared that being too strict would mess with the shaky hold I had on my sobriety at the time. I didn't want staying thin "enough" in the sense that I wouldn't prioritize it over other things, yeah. I don't see that as bad or stupid or about laziness.

    Ultimately, I think with weight loss people have to hit a point where they really care enough to do what they need to do or not. How much this is depends -- for some it's nothing, as it's just living as they always have and find natural and like and which is consistent with their habits (and ideally we all get there). But saying "if you don't feel like you can do it" (as some people indicate when they say can't can't can't about everything suggested) isn't, IMO, saying you are lazy. It's saying maybe you aren't ready to make any changes yet, and that's okay, it's a choice. But if you want, it doesn't have to be as hard as you may think and here are some ideas.

    I don't disagree with anything you just said.


    Unfortunately I think several people are reading things that are not written in the post or ignoring things that are expressly stated.
  • jemhh
    jemhh Posts: 14,261 Member
    Options
    jprewitt1 wrote: »
    SideSteel wrote: »
    Unfortunately I think several people are reading things that are not written in the post or ignoring things that are expressly stated.

    I think people are letting their own insecurities get in the way of a solid discussion. I was most definitely lazy when I became obese. I was up to 470 lbs at one point. I knew what I was doing. I just didn't care. I had access to a gym, pool, and better food. I chose not to take part. The world is not made up of black and white. It's a muddled mess of a rainbow. It's hard to see things from another person's perspective if you've never lived the life they have. Empathy is a difficult skill to master for many and you can see that on full display here.

    Agreed
  • lemurcat12
    lemurcat12 Posts: 30,886 Member
    Options
    ahoy_m8 wrote: »
    Thanks for the post and good discussion. It hits home for a couple reasons.

    1) A part of me wonders if poverty is the underlying driver of many negative outcomes -- in health, elementary education, employment prospects, ability to avoid incarceration (don't laugh). I'm not saying poverty is the sole cause, or excuse, but my observation is an incident that would be nothing to a wealthy person becomes a catastrophic spiral for an impoverished person. I've worked with very affluent people, in a really depressed part of my city with kids in gangs, and in my county jail. I've had more than one employee not show up for work because they died in their apartment of an untreated chronic condition -- no access to medical care unless you go to the ER--which believe me, is not free for the uninsured. Nor does the ER treat chronic conditions like cancer or hypertension or any of the biggest killers in the US. I digress.

    My non-scientific observation is affluent people (e.g. those who can afford >$100k annually to send their kids to private school before college) are pretty fit. Less affluent people are overweight or obese at a much higher rate. To be clear, I am not saying being smart or fit makes you rich (or the converse) but that there are tons of opportunities for the rich and obstacles for the poor. Also, the obesity -food insecurity connection has been well studied and documented for over a decade in many countries.

    Among other things, I think good old-fashioned peer pressure is part of it.

    I grew up mostly middle class, but really financially insecure at times, because my dad lost a bunch of money in various ways, was an alcoholic and not in stable employment most of my childhood, and my mother worked a lot but didn't make that much money. Lucky for me, though, both of my parents were smart and thought education was a priority.

    Despite whatever else was going on, it was social norms in my family (this was the '70s and '80s) that a family would sit down to a home cooked dinner together, that you would eat vegetables, that you wouldn't snack too much or spoil the dinner, that going out was a rare thing (for food, at least) and so on. Also, go outside and play, be active! Oh, and there was a social stigma against being overweight, and it was rare.

    I now live in an upper-middle class environment (neighborhood, job) where obesity is really, really rare, despite it being common in my city overall. What I see is the same social stigma against obesity (even more so, comparatively), a real focus by parents on eating healthfully and lots of veg, etc. (much more so than when I was a kid, again, it's like a class marker I think), a focus on being active and doing active things together as families (or bringing the kids to all kinds of things that involve activity--just running around outside is harder). I was overweight (stressful job, no time, lots of tempting high cal foods) and realized that it just wasn't okay -- everyone else had the same temptations but fit in activity, didn't eat too much--again, social status and probably relevant to job success in some ways. (I struggled anyway for various reasons, but seeing that others had the same issues and were thin helped me understand both that I should lose and could.)

    I know a variety of people in other environments, both middle or lower middle class (relatives, others) and truly poor, and I think a lot of the social structure and stigma is gone. It's not considered being a bad parent/irresponsible to not insist on certain ways of eating as it was when I was a kid or in the social environment I live in now, and also it's not considered a big deal to be overweight in the same way. (To the point that I see quite obese people showing off their bodies happily in a way that wouldn't have happened when I was growing up and that I can't imagine being comfortable with personally, as I'm more critical of my own flaws -- not saying this is good, but it probably affects what you are okay with in terms of weight gain.) Yeah, lots of people maybe want to lose, but not necessarily and not at the same weights. It's more comfortable to be overweight so harder to care about. And social life doesn't revolve around active pursuits as much as it can in my neighborhood (although there's less difference here).

    I do think that it's also easier if you have more money, of course -- so many things are easier. But a think a lot of it is social environment and norms. I kind of feel like we aren't supposed to say this, though.
  • Aaron_K123
    Aaron_K123 Posts: 7,122 Member
    edited October 2016
    Options
    SideSteel wrote: »
    Orphia wrote: »
    You make a lot of good points.

    I hope you're not saying it's impossible for Margarets to lose weight. It's not. Apologies if you think you'd made that obvious.

    I'm sure as a PT you take a different approach to Margaret as to Chad.

    Likewise as MFP Community posters, we need to reply to each poster differently depending on the individual's circumstances. A lot of tips and tricks are more appropriate for Margaret than they are for Chad and vice versa.

    I feel I must also point out that in my innumerable hours spent in this forum, I can't recall an outright instance of fat-shaming.

    I'm not at all saying it's impossible for Margaret or anyone else to succeed.

    I'm also not removing the importance of personal responsibility.

    Fat shaming doesn't happen often at all on these forums which is quite fortunate and if it did I trust the moderators would handle it as they're pretty good overall here.

    Your sides may be steel but you are a big softy man. You care and that shows and that is going to work for a lot of people, but not for everyone. For some its just going to help reinforce their belief that outside forces are to blame for their condition rather than taking steps towards taking ownership and responsibility. I also care, but I don't think I could call myself a softy...I'm rather blunt and I will call someone out for not taking responsibility for their actions. For some that might shut them down and make them feel like withdrawing, for others it may be a wake up call. Is that "fat shaming" if I do so to an obese person who is putting a lot of energy into blaming external factors for their condition but not a lot into doing anything to change that condition? I guess that judgement rests in others but I'd like to think not. I think fat shaming is done by people who want to feel better about themselves not those who want to help. Different people are going to take different approaches to helping and different people are going to respond to different approaches. Your a softy, I'm not. Oh and as a side-note I don't mean "softy" as an insult, please don't read it that way.
  • lemurcat12
    lemurcat12 Posts: 30,886 Member
    Options
    jprewitt1 wrote: »
    SideSteel wrote: »
    Unfortunately I think several people are reading things that are not written in the post or ignoring things that are expressly stated.

    I think people are letting their own insecurities get in the way of a solid discussion.

    Um, maybe I'm being insecure here, but I don't see how my comments to SideSteel got in the way of a solid discussion (and I mention this since you tagged on to that interchange). Perhaps I was misreading him and we agree more than I thought -- my point was really to express some uncertainty as to the point or even conflict in my own thoughts than to take issue with him, after all.
    Empathy is a difficult skill to master for many and you can see that on full display here.

    To what does this refer? I won't assume by the placement of the post.
  • lemurcat12
    lemurcat12 Posts: 30,886 Member
    Options
    SideSteel wrote: »
    jprewitt1 wrote: »
    SideSteel wrote: »
    Unfortunately I think several people are reading things that are not written in the post or ignoring things that are expressly stated.

    I think people are letting their own insecurities get in the way of a solid discussion. I was most definitely lazy when I became obese. I was up to 470 lbs at one point. I knew what I was doing. I just didn't care. I had access to a gym, pool, and better food. I chose not to take part. The world is not made up of black and white. It's a muddled mess of a rainbow. It's hard to see things from another person's perspective if you've never lived the life they have. Empathy is a difficult skill to master for many and you can see that on full display here.

    Great reply, and empathy is something that is sorely lacking in the fitness community especially from some fitness professionals and it was one of the reasons for this post.

    And I have said this multiple times and I even mentioned in the thread but people seemed to conveniently ignore it, (not you) there absolutely are people who make excuses, and don't care enough and do not accept personal responsibility.

    But it's unfair to assume that this is the case for everybody.


    It is also unfair to assume that when someone speaks about not making excuses that they are saying that everyone who gets fat did so as a result of making excuses. If you don't mean to say that, great, but I really don't see people in this discussion who are lacking empathy, so if people want to toss around such accusations I would hope that it would be specific, so we could maybe clarify.

    A great many of us in this discussion have struggled with being overweight or obese.
  • Sued0nim
    Sued0nim Posts: 17,456 Member
    Options
    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    SideSteel wrote: »
    jprewitt1 wrote: »
    SideSteel wrote: »
    Unfortunately I think several people are reading things that are not written in the post or ignoring things that are expressly stated.

    I think people are letting their own insecurities get in the way of a solid discussion. I was most definitely lazy when I became obese. I was up to 470 lbs at one point. I knew what I was doing. I just didn't care. I had access to a gym, pool, and better food. I chose not to take part. The world is not made up of black and white. It's a muddled mess of a rainbow. It's hard to see things from another person's perspective if you've never lived the life they have. Empathy is a difficult skill to master for many and you can see that on full display here.

    Great reply, and empathy is something that is sorely lacking in the fitness community especially from some fitness professionals and it was one of the reasons for this post.

    And I have said this multiple times and I even mentioned in the thread but people seemed to conveniently ignore it, (not you) there absolutely are people who make excuses, and don't care enough and do not accept personal responsibility.

    But it's unfair to assume that this is the case for everybody.


    It is also unfair to assume that when someone speaks about not making excuses that they are saying that everyone who gets fat did so as a result of making excuses. If you don't mean to say that, great, but I really don't see people in this discussion who are lacking empathy, so if people want to toss around such accusations I would hope that it would be specific, so we could maybe clarify.

    A great many of us in this discussion have struggled with being overweight or obese.

    Yes this.
  • TheBrock84
    TheBrock84 Posts: 68 Member
    Options
    MOTIVATING!!!!
  • Aaron_K123
    Aaron_K123 Posts: 7,122 Member
    Options
    SideSteel wrote: »
    Aaron_K123 wrote: »
    SideSteel wrote: »
    Orphia wrote: »
    You make a lot of good points.

    I hope you're not saying it's impossible for Margarets to lose weight. It's not. Apologies if you think you'd made that obvious.

    I'm sure as a PT you take a different approach to Margaret as to Chad.

    Likewise as MFP Community posters, we need to reply to each poster differently depending on the individual's circumstances. A lot of tips and tricks are more appropriate for Margaret than they are for Chad and vice versa.

    I feel I must also point out that in my innumerable hours spent in this forum, I can't recall an outright instance of fat-shaming.

    I'm not at all saying it's impossible for Margaret or anyone else to succeed.

    I'm also not removing the importance of personal responsibility.

    Fat shaming doesn't happen often at all on these forums which is quite fortunate and if it did I trust the moderators would handle it as they're pretty good overall here.

    Your sides may be steel but you are a big softy man. You care and that shows and that is going to work for a lot of people, but not for everyone. I also care, but I don't think I could call myself a softy...I'm rather blunt and I will call someone out for not taking responsibility for their actions. Is that "fat shaming" if I do so to an obese person who is putting a lot of energy into blaming external factors for their condition but not a lot into doing anything to change that condition? I guess that judgement rests in others but I'd like to think not. I think fat shaming is done by people who want to feel better about themselves not those who want to help. Different people are going to take different approaches to helping and different people are going to respond to different approaches. Your a softy, I'm not. Oh and as a side-note I don't mean "softy" as an insult, please don't read it that way.

    It's not fat shaming in your example however you'd need a LOT of context in order to make the determination that an obese person is obese due to blaming external factors, and a major point of this post is to urge people to consider the context and stop assuming you know for a fact that the obese person is just lazy and lacking personal responsibility because it's a potentially ignorant assumption.

    Thats fair, I don't actually disagree with you really. Just bringing up points for discussion. Empathy is a requirement for being able to connect with someone enough to have a meaningful discssion.
  • jeffd247
    jeffd247 Posts: 319 Member
    Options
    I'm fat because I am lazy. That's not some sort of passive aggressive thing that I am trying to use to call other people out.

    I am clinically obese because I like drinking beer and eating more than I like doing burpees and pushups.

    I'm trying to become less lazy and fat. The more I exercise and eat right, the more I like it. That doesn't lessen how much I like being lazy.

    Many people are obese because they are just Lazy and dumb (like me).

Categories