Protein, Protein, Protein -enough Protein

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Replies

  • cwolfman13
    cwolfman13 Posts: 41,865 Member
    edited December 2016
    Moby_Dick wrote: »
    It's like an epidemic. Of course, we need protein, it's essential for our health, it's used to build muscles, hair, and nails. I think the typical American diet contains enough protein. We eat meat, fish, and eggs with every meal.

    I am not a bodybuilder, neither am I an active athlete. I am just a fat woman trying to lose weight.

    People's comments on the protein intake here are humorous. "Good day, enough protein." Really?

    If I decide to have a meatless day and eat veggies only -like we did when I was a child, then it's not a good day?

    Weight loss comes from counting calories, so I will lose weight when I eat 1200 calories of vegetable stew, won't I?

    Years ago a study showed that we all lose weight faster if we don't combine carbs with protein. So instead of the protein epidemic, people ate protein alone for one meal, then carbs and fiber for the next meal, the results were similar to the Atkins diet and all the other diets that are copycats like Paleo and Southbeach.

    Isn't too much protein unhealthy and can even be harmful to our body? (Liver and Kidney)

    The RDA is basically the minimum for general health and assumes a sedentary lifestyle...over 1 gram per Lb of LBM is basically making expensive glucose...somewhere in between is where most active adults should be.

    I'm very active and certainly benefit from having more than the RDA, but I don't really concern myself with getting 1 gram per Lb of LBM...I'm more of an endurance athlete and while I do lift, it is namely as a cross training support component of my cycling so I wouldn't consider myself to be a "strength" athlete.

    I also eat vegetarian 3 days per week on average, sometimes more...I still get plenty of protein with things like lentils, beans, eggs and egg whites, cottage cheese and other dairy, etc. On average I'd say I hit around 120 grams per day give or take...

    As to too much protein being harmful...sure...but it takes a lot and is more concerning when someone already has kidney issues. It's like too much water is toxic...which is true...but it takes a *kitten* ton of water to get there.

    Like I said before, 1 gram per Lb of LBM is pretty much the upper limit of what your body can actually use, and that's really not going to hurt anyone.
  • cerise_noir
    cerise_noir Posts: 5,468 Member
    snickerscharlie wrote: »
    Ah, I just noticed the OP rage quit. <sigh> So it seems I wasted my time trying to help her.

    Hopefully, other people new to this process will be able to get (and use) the very valuable information about the importance of getting adequate amounts of protein while losing weight. :)

    Ridiculous. Ragequitting is the new....rage.
  • Wheelhouse15
    Wheelhouse15 Posts: 5,575 Member
    cerise_noir wrote: »
    snickerscharlie wrote: »
    Ah, I just noticed the OP rage quit. <sigh> So it seems I wasted my time trying to help her.

    Hopefully, other people new to this process will be able to get (and use) the very valuable information about the importance of getting adequate amounts of protein while losing weight. :)

    Ridiculous. Ragequitting is the new....rage.

    *groan*
  • dewd2
    dewd2 Posts: 2,445 Member
    I just went to reply to a private message and it seems Moby_Dick is no longer registered here. So I'll post what I was going to say.

    The one study you liked to was done on a very specific group. The methods of data collection are somewhat suspect as well (at least to me - I did not read through the entire study).

    The rest of the links are from sites that want you to think a certain way. Very few facts there.

    But like I said in my first reply, one study means very little. I always try to find meta analysis when possible. This is a 'study of studies'. It draws conclusions from many studies and is generally what is considered to be the best statement of facts as they are currently known.

    Here is one article I found that attempts to clarify the confusion: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25926512
    Abstract
    Over the past 20 y, higher-protein diets have been touted as a successful strategy to prevent or treat obesity through improvements in body weight management. These improvements are thought to be due, in part, to modulations in energy metabolism, appetite, and energy intake. Recent evidence also supports higher-protein diets for improvements in cardiometabolic risk factors. This article provides an overview of the literature that explores the mechanisms of action after acute protein consumption and the clinical health outcomes after consumption of long-term, higher-protein diets. Several meta-analyses of shorter-term, tightly controlled feeding studies showed greater weight loss, fat mass loss, and preservation of lean mass after higher-protein energy-restriction diets than after lower-protein energy-restriction diets. Reductions in triglycerides, blood pressure, and waist circumference were also reported. In addition, a review of the acute feeding trials confirms a modest satiety effect, including greater perceived fullness and elevated satiety hormones after higher-protein meals but does not support an effect on energy intake at the next eating occasion. Although shorter-term, tightly controlled feeding studies consistently identified benefits with increased protein consumption, longer-term studies produced limited and conflicting findings; nevertheless, a recent meta-analysis showed persistent benefits of a higher-protein weight-loss diet on body weight and fat mass. Dietary compliance appears to be the primary contributor to the discrepant findings because improvements in weight management were detected in those who adhered to the prescribed higher-protein regimen, whereas those who did not adhere to the diet had no marked improvements. Collectively, these data suggest that higher-protein diets that contain between 1.2 and 1.6 g protein · kg-1 · d-1 and potentially include meal-specific protein quantities of at least ∼25-30 g protein/meal provide improvements in appetite, body weight management, cardiometabolic risk factors, or all of these health outcomes; however, further strategies to increase dietary compliance with long-term dietary interventions are warranted.
  • CorneliusPhoton
    CorneliusPhoton Posts: 965 Member
    I started typing this earlier and got distracted. I hope you are still around under a new username, OP Moby_Dick. I believe that the protein discussion is an important one to have.

    The RDA for protein is the bare minimum for a healthy young person who is not eating in a deficit. The minimum to avoid getting sick.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18819733
    The recommended dietary allowance (RDA) for protein, as promulgated by the Food and Nutrition Board of the United States National Academy of Science, is 0.8 g protein/kg body weight/day for adults, regardless of age. This value represents the minimum amount of protein required to avoid progressive loss of lean body mass in most individuals.

    Age-related muscle and bone loss starts early. You don't have to be 65 to start worrying about hip fractures. Muscle and bone loss starts in our 30s and 40s. So NOW is the time to start protecting your muscle and bone. To further exacerbate the problem, when you are in a calorie deficit, you are breaking down both fat and muscle for fuel. We know two things that can save your existing muscle: You need to eat adequate protein so the material to maintain muscle is readily available, and you need some resistance training to keep your muscles stimulated (your body will not break down muscle that it still in high demand as much as it will break down muscle that isn't used). 

    It's nearly impossible to grow bulky muscles 1) as a woman 2) of a certain age 3) in a calorie deficit 4) without specifically trying to do so with a progressive lifting program. It takes optimum conditions. While resistance training gives our muscles the stimulus to grow, for us it really just means "don't wither." You won't be building larger muscle tissue while your body has to dip into muscle and fat reserves in order to meet your daily energy requirements.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3665330/
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3337037

    If you are OK with just losing weight via a calorie (and likely protein) deficit, you will be successful because losing weight is all about CICO. If you "want to be lean and have muscles," you should do everything you can to save the muscles that you have by eating adequate protein and by doing some sort of resistance training along with your calorie deficit.

    People here know what they are talking about. I think that you will find that most of the people who are giving you advice are successful at reaching their goals, and are just sharing what they have learned along the way -- Including pointing out myths and ideas about foods and muscle building that have been disproved.

    I lost weight solely via CICO, because back then all I knew was that I can eat whatever I want and still lose weight. Worked swimmingly. I was not concerned about retaining muscle because I didn't know that I was losing it. Not many people know that when they first start. I am now following a progressive resistance training program to get my muscles to look decent (and hopefully change that pancake that I sit on back into an actual booty). I wish I had started it last February, but better late than never.

    I understand your concerns about the quality of foods you wish to eat. As others have stated, there are plenty of options for protein out there, and you can get it all from plant-based foods if you wish.
  • cee134
    cee134 Posts: 33,711 Member
    The math doesn't add up for me.

    If my goal weight is 200 that's (.8 x 200lbs) = 160 grams of protein a day. Or about 5 servings of skinless chicken breasts at 3.5 ounces and 165 kcal each. Or 19 oz (1lbs 3 oz) and 880 kcal of only protein servings a day. That doesn't leave alot of room for fiber and micronutrient needs. I don't eat any red meat and am trying to keep my saturated fat at or below 11 grams. I would prefer a mostly plant based diet, but that is impossible with 160 grams of protein a day and hitting calorie goals.

    I just don't see that as possible. Can someone help me work this out? Not only does eating over 1 pound of chicken a day sound like a lot, it sounds expensive too.
  • seska422
    seska422 Posts: 3,217 Member
    cee134 wrote: »
    The math doesn't add up for me.

    If my goal weight is 200 that's (.8 x 200lbs) = 160 grams of protein a day. Or about 5 servings of skinless chicken breasts at 3.5 ounces and 165 kcal each. Or 19 oz (1lbs 3 oz) and 880 kcal of only protein servings a day. That doesn't leave alot of room for fiber and micronutrient needs. I don't eat any red meat and am trying to keep my saturated fat at or below 11 grams. I would prefer a mostly plant based diet, but that is impossible with 160 grams of protein a day and hitting calorie goals.

    I just don't see that as possible. Can someone help me work this out? Not only does eating over 1 pound of chicken a day sound like a lot, it sounds expensive too.

    You're an adult male so your RDA is 56 grams. You want to eat at least that.

    There's a big gap between 56 grams and 160 grams. If 160 doesn't work for your way of eating, experiment to find an amount that does work. 100 grams would be nearly twice the RDA and that may be a more realistic goal for you.
  • lemurcat12
    lemurcat12 Posts: 30,886 Member
    cee134 wrote: »
    The math doesn't add up for me.

    If my goal weight is 200 that's (.8 x 200lbs) = 160 grams of protein a day.

    If your healthy goal weight is 200, that would mean that you are around 6'3 or over (or pretty muscular if not quite that tall), right? So your TDEE even if likely active, is going to be around 2700 at maintenance, and more if you are heavier now. So we are talking about maybe 25% of your total calories. Also, my understanding is that the recommendation at a deficit to avoid unnecessary muscle loss is really more like .65-.85 g/lb.

    Lots of fiber and micros come from low cal vegetables, so not sure why eating 25% of calories in protein would make those hard to meet. (You also still would have easily 50% or so of calories for carbs, so could include grains or whatever your favorite non veg fiber sources are. And legumes are high in fiber and a pretty good protein source.)

    I find low fat dairy (0% Fage, cottage cheese) and fish are a couple of my go-to sources (and granted fish can be expensive), but If you don't want to do it no need, though.
  • MiX2D
    MiX2D Posts: 1 Member
    Moby_Dick wrote: »
    It's like an epidemic. Of course, we need protein, it's essential for our health, it's used to build muscles, hair, and nails. I think the typical American diet contains enough protein. We eat meat, fish, and eggs with every meal.

    What are you really trying to get at here? Your post is a bit unfocused or a least a bit confusing to me.
    Moby_Dick wrote: »
    I am not a bodybuilder, neither am I an active athlete. I am just a fat woman trying to lose weight.
    This is vague.
    Moby_Dick wrote: »
    People's comments on the protein intake here are humorous. "Good day, enough protein." Really?
    You don't know what their challenges/goals are? What's the humor in that.
    Moby_Dick wrote: »
    If I decide to have a meatless day and eat veggies only -like we did when I was a child, then it's not a good day?
    the outcome of your day is up to you and your goals and what you value.
    Moby_Dick wrote: »
    Weight loss comes from counting calories, so I will lose weight when I eat 1200 calories of vegetable stew, won't I?
    No one can really provide advice on this, your didn't specify your RMR and activity level.
    Moby_Dick wrote: »
    Years ago a study showed that we all lose weight faster if we don't combine carbs with protein. So instead of the protein epidemic, people ate protein alone for one meal, then carbs and fiber for the next meal, the results were similar to the Atkins diet and all the other diets that are copycats like Paleo and Southbeach.
    Another vague comment.
    Moby_Dick wrote: »
    Isn't too much protein unhealthy and can even be harmful to our body? (Liver and Kidney)

    https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=too+much+protein+in+diet+kidney&amp;btnG=&amp;hl=en&amp;as_sdt=0,33&amp;oq=too+much+protein+in+diet+kid
    Yes! But is that what you really wanted to ask?

    I am not trying to come across as unfriendly here. It sounds like you have sincere questions regarding protein but try helping the people you want answers from by providing specific question about what you're unsure or want to know more about.



  • AnnPT77
    AnnPT77 Posts: 34,607 Member
    GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »
    Another thing about protein!

    I'm a woman of "a certain age". Studies are showing that protein should be higher for older folks because sarcopenia is nasty.

    If you're older and dieting? Bad idea not taking in extra protein.

    Aaaannnnd, if you're older and dieting and female , that whole "get enough protein to maintain your current muscle" thing is, IMO, an especially big deal.

    It's hard work to gain strength or muscle (which are not exactly the same thing) as an older woman. It's pretty easy to lose either. Personally, I look at strength as one part of an insurance policy against an earlier one-way trip to the assisted living facility. I want more strength, not less!

    (P.S. I'm another vegetarian, and weigh in the mid 120s. I try for a minimum of 100g daily, now that I'm in maintenance, and usually substantially exceed it. Vegetables can have protein; it's isn't "vegetables or protein". Healthy eating requires a good balance of protein, fat (especially from healthy sources), fiber, micronutrients . . . .)
  • successgal1
    successgal1 Posts: 996 Member
    I never got enough protein until I joined mfp and became aware of nutrition and the lack of it in my diet. I'm not a big meat eater, nor a big eater of things that have a decent amount. I had to greatly change my eating habits. I'm 5'5" and would not be lying if I said most days years ago I was lucky if I got 20-30 grams a day.
  • sgt1372
    sgt1372 Posts: 3,997 Member
    edited December 2016
    dewd2 wrote: »
    I always try to find meta analysis when possible. This is a 'study of studies'. It draws conclusions from many studies and is generally what is considered to be the best statement of facts as they are currently known.

    Here is one article I found that attempts to clarify the confusion: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25926512
    Abstract
    Over the past 20 y, higher-protein diets have been touted as a successful strategy to prevent or treat obesity through improvements in body weight management. These improvements are thought to be due, in part, to modulations in energy metabolism, appetite, and energy intake. Recent evidence also supports higher-protein diets for improvements in cardiometabolic risk factors. This article provides an overview of the literature that explores the mechanisms of action after acute protein consumption and the clinical health outcomes after consumption of long-term, higher-protein diets. Several meta-analyses of shorter-term, tightly controlled feeding studies showed greater weight loss, fat mass loss, and preservation of lean mass after higher-protein energy-restriction diets than after lower-protein energy-restriction diets. Reductions in triglycerides, blood pressure, and waist circumference were also reported. In addition, a review of the acute feeding trials confirms a modest satiety effect, including greater perceived fullness and elevated satiety hormones after higher-protein meals but does not support an effect on energy intake at the next eating occasion.Although shorter-term, tightly controlled feeding studies consistently identified benefits with increased protein consumption, longer-term studies produced limited and conflicting findings; nevertheless,a recent meta-analysis showed persistent benefits of a higher-protein weight-loss diet on body weight and fat mass. Dietary compliance appears to be the primary contributor to the discrepant findings because improvements in weight management were detected in those who adhered to the prescribed higher-protein regimen, whereas those who did not adhere to the diet had no marked improvements. Collectively, these data suggest that higher-protein diets that contain between 1.2 and 1.6 g protein · kg-1 · d-1 and potentially include meal-specific protein quantities of at least ∼25-30 g protein/meal provide improvements in appetite, body weight management, cardiometabolic risk factors, or all of these health outcomes; however, further strategies to increase dietary compliance with long-term dietary interventions are warranted.

    My experience based on a much higher than suggested protein diet is consistent with the results highlighted in the abstract of the meta-analysis noted in bold in the quoted text above. Click on the "slow previous quotes" link to see it.

    I am 66 years old and lost 35# from 196 down to 161 and reduced my BF from +20% to 12.1% in just 6 months based on a 1800-1900 cal/day diet with 3-5 days of lifting plus heavy cardio (mainly rowing) during the 1st 4 months and only lifting during the last 2 months. The following are additional details about my experience that I reported in another thread:

    My macro goal over this time period was (and continues to be) 40P/40C/20F but my actual macros as recorded by MFP were 35P/39C/26F based on a gross average of 181g protein, 206g carbs and 60g fat per day.

    The protein ratio has been between 1.12g per # of BW and 1.27g per # of LBM. Much higher than generally recommended, as was intended, because of my goal to maintain and, if possible, increase LBM while on a deficit diet and based on certain reports that older people need a higher ratio of protein in their diet in order to maintain LBM.

    For those who worry about such things, I have experienced no ill effects - physically or medically -- while on this high protein diet. However, I have been supplementing my diet w/psyllium husk for fiber and papaya & pineapple enzyme to aid in the digestion of the protein and to reduce gas. All of these supplements have been effective in doing what the are intended to do.

    An increase in my LBM was twice measured during the past 4 months. Between Aug-Oct 2016, LBM as measured by DXA increased 2.8# from 137.2 to 140# and between Sep-Dec 2016, LBM as measured by Hydrostatic Testing increased 3.6# from 137.9 to 141.5. So, I believe that my high protein diet and weight lifting program have proven their effectiveness in not only maintaining but actually increasing my LBM while on a deficit diet.

    Note: My protein intake was usually around 40-60g protein per meal; 3-4x's a day. The average kg equivalent of protein that I have been ingesting on this diet is 2.47g/kg of BW and 2.81g/kg of LBM, based on a weight of 161# and 12.1% BF at the time of the last measurement by hydrostatic testing.

    So, at least for me, a high protein diet at over twice the amount normally recommended coupled with a progressive weight lifting program has been quite beneficial to me.

    My current goal is to maintain my weight and BF% where it is now but I will not be unhappy if I am also able to continue to increase my LBM while reducing BF% based on the same diet and exercise program.



  • littlechiaseed
    littlechiaseed Posts: 489 Member
    Yeah there's a lot of misinformation in general about protein. I gained muscle not eating a crap ton of protein so that myth that you have to eat 100-200g a day to gain muscle is complete crap. Also it doesn't keep me fuller longer.
  • trigden1991
    trigden1991 Posts: 4,658 Member
    littlechiaseed wrote: »
    Yeah there's a lot of misinformation in general about protein. I gained muscle not eating a crap ton of protein so that myth that you have to eat 100-200g a day to gain muscle is complete crap. Also it doesn't keep me fuller longer.

    I eat 250g + of protein and have gained muscle.

    As @StealthHealth pointed out, one persons experience is not representative of a population.
  • mellowadam
    mellowadam Posts: 114 Member
    I'm married to a registered dietician and we talk about this stuff all the time. Her focus is health and organ function in critically ill patients so she's always running numbers and looking at blood work, fluid balance issues, electrolyte labs etc. on her patient population. She laughs at how much protein I eat.

    This site is fitness focused though so the recommendations are gonna be more swayed toward the athletic, strength training and bodybuilding crowd because those are the people who always sign up as guinea pigs for research.

    Protein is also great for controlling hunger! I wish I would have know this in 2010 when i started my journey. I've lost a 100 pounds and and working myself out of the skinny fat predicament. I never thought I could stomach 1gram per pound of body weight but I really love eating high protein mixed with plenty of good complex carbs. I never have cravings for junk, sleep great, have great libido and enjoy the gym.

    It might not work for everyone but there is a reason the fitness crowd are obsessed with protein.
  • littlechiaseed
    littlechiaseed Posts: 489 Member
    Wheelhouse15 wrote: »
    littlechiaseed wrote: »
    Yeah there's a lot of misinformation in general about protein. I gained muscle not eating a crap ton of protein so that myth that you have to eat 100-200g a day to gain muscle is complete crap. Also it doesn't keep me fuller longer.

    What was your muscle gain and what was your protein intake during that time in terms of g/lb? You could gain on .6g/lb, I can see this happening for you if your activity is moderate but that's you specifically and not others. The requirements for protein are actually very well established.
    The RDA is established but there's a lot of wack jobs on here eating like 250g of protein a day for what? Absolutely no rasin.

    I wast eating between 60-100g usually on the lower end so around .4 and .5 per lb body weight.

  • Christine_72
    Christine_72 Posts: 16,049 Member
    littlechiaseed wrote: »
    Wheelhouse15 wrote: »
    littlechiaseed wrote: »
    Yeah there's a lot of misinformation in general about protein. I gained muscle not eating a crap ton of protein so that myth that you have to eat 100-200g a day to gain muscle is complete crap. Also it doesn't keep me fuller longer.

    What was your muscle gain and what was your protein intake during that time in terms of g/lb? You could gain on .6g/lb, I can see this happening for you if your activity is moderate but that's you specifically and not others. The requirements for protein are actually very well established.
    The RDA is established but there's a lot of wack jobs on here eating like 250g of protein a day for what? Absolutely no rasin.

    I wast eating between 60-100g usually on the lower end so around .4 and .5 per lb body weight.

    Are you a vegan or vegetarian? I'm not saying you're doing this, but I've noticed that many protein OTT comments come from those eating this way.
  • cmriverside
    cmriverside Posts: 34,455 Member
    The multiplier is POINT 8 grams per KILOGRAM of body weight.

    That gets misread here all. the. time. as point 8 grams per pound. Not so.

    Reading is fundamental.
  • cmriverside
    cmriverside Posts: 34,455 Member
    (not you psu, I'm talking about the general guideline of .8g per pound of lean body weight.)

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