Welcome to Debate Club! Please be aware that this is a space for respectful debate, and that your ideas will be challenged here. Please remember to critique the argument, not the author.
Giving up sugar for good
Replies
-
lemurcat12 wrote: »I'm trying to imagine a parallel scenario where I would start smoking again even though it made no difference to my life apart from feeling less 'limited'.
In that my experience seems similar, here's what I see as the difference:
Smoking is bad for your health, eating added sugar in moderation is not.
Eating certain foods which contain added sugar (and for me anyway, baking them) is enjoyable, and in particular an intrinsic part of what I see as the traditional shared meal on certain holidays and other events. If I enjoy ice cream or a piece of apple pie occasionally (or both, as I had on Thanksgiving), why would I cut them out if they do me no harm.
Also, if I followed this with EVERY food (or part of a food) that does harm in excess, or seems to based on current evidence, my diet would be extremely limited (no sat fat, no meat, no added sugar, no refined grains, it could go on), then my diet would be awfully limited and dull, and that would affect my life overall.
Yes. I guess a more accurate parallel in my case would be booze. I can take it or leave it, although when I take it I do tend to take it to excess. I wouldn't see any reason to turn down a g&t (or six) at a gathering, but once it's over I'll go six months without even thinking about drinking.
Yeah, I think that's a decent parallel. I don't drink, but many people do, with no harm, even though they can easily not drink at all without it being a big thing. The reason they do choose to drink is not that they are "addicted" or couldn't stand going without, but they enjoy it -- I used to be enough of an oenophile (and fan of craft beers) to think that makes total sense. I actually wish there was a way to separate this element of it from the intoxicating bit. (I get that sugary foods, and other foods, can have a emotional relief kind of effect too -- like I said, I'm an emotional eater and have specifically used food as a replacement for booze, but in that it does not actually alter your consciousness in nearly the same way, I really don't see how it could be considered at all the same.)On the other hand that doesn't happen to me with sweet stuff. If I want (and have) some one day I'll want even more of it the next day.
Yes, I think what we eat affects what we want. For example, if I snack through the day for a few days (or sometimes even just one), I will think about food all day long and want to snack. If I get out of the habit, I'm fine, even when there's delicious food on offer all day long (as there was today, and I barely thought about it, although leading up to Christmas I was eating in a totally out of control way based on the same stimulus, or less of one). What that means to me is that I -- and I think many people -- need structure. For me the structure is not snacking, as I have a really strong idea of what a proper meal is that is pretty nutritionally dense (and for the record I don't eat much added sugar in a meal, if any). I do eat a something extra after dinner many days, sometimes something sweet, sometimes fruit (also sweet, of course), sometimes something not sweet (I'm a huge fan of good cheese, and learning to eat them in moderation has been wonderful, and also nuts are a good choice for me).
I do think having a balanced diet with plenty of protein and healthy fats helps me feel satisfied with my diet and not think about foods just because they are there, also, but I do think you have to find the strategy that works for you.1 -
I went for about six months as well, on my doctors very strong 'suggestion'. There were no issues, but I would say that missing something/strongly desiring/gaining pleasure from having...none of these are indicative of an addiction. Even stressing over not having isn't a good indicator either in my opinion.
edit: Instead of 'indicative" maybe I should say proof of....
Stressing over not having any I would think *is* a good indicator; surely it would fall into the category of a 'withdrawal symptom'?
Thinking about this, several times I have fallen back into the habit of snacking -- grazing, really, throughout the day -- and this does not mean sweet food, it could be anything. Used to be mostly nuts when I was in a "clean eating" kind of phase (although I never called it that, ugh, hate the term), and the thought of quitting was stressful and even the first day or two could be. I don't think that makes it an addiction, I think it makes it a habit.3 -
Just because something doesn't have physical withdrawal symptoms doesn't mean people can't become addicted. That argument is ridiculous. There wouldn't be EDA and OA if food addictions weren't a real thing. There is GA for gamblers...not a substance and no physical withdrawal but definitely an addiction for some.
If you were never addicted to anything kudos to you. If you have watched loved ones suffer I am truly sorry. I know my family suffered watching me for many years.
As someone who has struggled with addiction in many forms and lost many loved ones, my aunt to diabetes as a direct result of food addiction, I find this thread the hardest read I've ever come across on this forum.
Two points I need to make
1. Some people are prone to addictive compulsive tendancies and can become addicted to anything including sugar/foods. They will likely become drug addicts of they try it.
2. Some people are not prone to these behaviors and can enjoy what they like in moderation including things like sugar or alcohol
It's about that person and not the substance/activity.3 -
Here's a piece on Taubes by someone I respect (and disclosure I used to be pretty into bloggingheads and watched the discussion he is talking about when it happened). He wrote this after the discussion, but this was 100% my take-away from watching it:
Edit -- whoops, forgot the link! https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/cross-check/thin-body-of-evidence-why-i-have-doubts-about-gary-taubess-why-we-get-fat/Gary, it seems to me, applies this critical outlook more to high-carb, low-fat diets than to the Atkins diet, which he celebrates for helping him and many others lose weight "almost effortlessly." If the Atkins diet works so well, why hasn't it swept aside its competitors, especially low-calorie, low-fat diets recommended by Weight Watchers and other popular groups? One problem, Gary says, is that many people become addicted to carbs, and their craving makes them fall off the Atkins wagon. Switching from a high-carb, low-fat diet to the Atkins system, Gary also acknowledges in Why We Get Fat, can trigger "weakness, fatigue, nausea, dehydration, diarrhea, constipation," among other side effects. Gary assures readers that they'll reap the benefits if they just stick to Atkins, but he slams advocates of less-fat, more-exercise diets for giving people this same just-stick-to-it advice.
I also think it's interesting that the addiction model seems important to him to explain why Atkins, if so obviously superior and right, isn't solving obesity. Maybe for some individuals (and that's great), but if that matters so do a huge variety of other diets, just as much, certainly when we start talking long term.
Treating sugar differently than the other foods/inputs that can be consumed in excess and are correlated with negative health outcomes seems wrong to me, simply more of the scapegoating that has failed in the past. IMO, eat a healthful diet, include sugar or not, not if you don't want, but don't pretend like focusing all the energy on sugar and eliminating it makes you healthier or more concerned with nutrition than those who eat it in a moderate (truly moderate) way as part of an overall balanced diet. As cwolfman keeps saying, of course it can be consumed in excess and the US on average (but not everyone who eats added sugar, obviously) does, by a lot. If someone eats lots of added sugar obviously cutting back is a smart thing to do (but sugar is not alone in this, and quite possible the problems with added sugar are less to do with sugar itself than other things like lacking vegetables and fruits and nutrient-dense foods overall or calories, or even that it's correlated with consumption of many other foods that it is recommended we moderate).3 -
Just because something doesn't have physical withdrawal symptoms doesn't mean people can't become addicted.
That there are behavior addictions and that it may be a behavioral addiction is a point that many in this thread have made (including me). If you have read the whole thread I am surprised you missed it.3 -
@lyn_glenmont Buying a sack of sugar to add to cakes and pies and homemade treats is very different from having sugar added to almost everything you buy in a grocery store filled with processed food. Are you really arguing that people today eat in the same way they did 50 years ago--or in the 19th century?
Not exactly -- they had a lot less variety available to them, especially in the 19th century, but even just 50 years ago people in most parts of the U.S. had never seen kiwifruit or avocado; I know that from October to mid-May, I hardly ever had any fresh fruit other than apples, bananas, and citrus; there wasn't a lot of kale getting eaten either; most people were still boiling their veggies because the steaming and roasting methods hadn't become popular (other than root veggies roasted with a roast); most people's "leafy greens" consisted of a wedge of iceberg drowned in commercially bottled dressing (plenty of sugar there); popular cake, jello, and even savory meat dishes called for adding a bottle of Coke.
My mother made most of our meals from scratch, but I still remember how horrible jarred spaghetti sauce tasted to me the first time I had it, with all that added sugar. Lots of other families were obviously eating it, since grocery stores had plenty on the shelves -- there were lots of other "processed" convenience foods on the grocery store shelves 50 years ago, too.
In the 19th century, fruit was preserved for out-of-season consumption in a variety of canned forms, but they pretty much all involved substantial amounts of "added sugar." Pies, cakes, flapjacks, doughnuts were all good ways for people to get the calories they needed to perform heavy work with little to no mechanical assistance . My grandmother, who was born in the 19th century, still made doughnuts at home about 60 years ago; she made brownies regularly to use the pecans her father shipped to her when he harvested them.2 -
I've done this 7 times in my life (competitive bodybuilding shows) to get cut up and down to single digit body fat numbers. I was weak, lethargic and moody whenever I did this for 12-16 weeks (that's more than your month you're asking for). Once I got processed foods and sugar back in my body, my workouts were explosive again and I was even more filled out than when I was on stage.I would like to propose a challenge to all the 'moderates' here: Abstain from all high-GL fruits/vegetables and any foods/drinks with added sugars for a month and report back on your experience. As you're not addicted either physically or psychologically to the sugars, this should cause you zero problems or stress, right? Who's up for it?!?
(Incidentally this suggestion was inspired by Mrs Floyd, who constantly tells me she is not addicted to cigarettes and can give them up whenever she wants to...)
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
4 -
They should deprive the world of aspartame like they deprived the world of peanut butter products.
Did something happen to peanut butter products that I don't know about?
No more peanut butter and cracker handi snacks, no more Lindt chocolate covered peanut butter balls. No more peanut butter combos and those were my favorite when I was growing up.
Some companies went peanut free a while back that used to make peanut butter products due to the concerns of peanut allergy. (That's a polite way of saying they complained about it.)
More and more companies have been following suit. At this rate, they might as well ban the nut while they're at it.
We have peanutbutter combos at the gas station.
We have all these things you mentioned. Where are you?3 -
lynn_glenmont wrote: »@lyn_glenmont Buying a sack of sugar to add to cakes and pies and homemade treats is very different from having sugar added to almost everything you buy in a grocery store filled with processed food. Are you really arguing that people today eat in the same way they did 50 years ago--or in the 19th century?
Not exactly -- they had a lot less variety available to them, especially in the 19th century, but even just 50 years ago people in most parts of the U.S. had never seen kiwifruit or avocado; I know that from October to mid-May, I hardly ever had any fresh fruit other than apples, bananas, and citrus; there wasn't a lot of kale getting eaten either; most people were still boiling their veggies because the steaming and roasting methods hadn't become popular (other than root veggies roasted with a roast); most people's "leafy greens" consisted of a wedge of iceberg drowned in commercially bottled dressing (plenty of sugar there); popular cake, jello, and even savory meat dishes called for adding a bottle of Coke.
My mother made most of our meals from scratch, but I still remember how horrible jarred spaghetti sauce tasted to me the first time I had it, with all that added sugar. Lots of other families were obviously eating it, since grocery stores had plenty on the shelves -- there were lots of other "processed" convenience foods on the grocery store shelves 50 years ago, too.
In the 19th century, fruit was preserved for out-of-season consumption in a variety of canned forms, but they pretty much all involved substantial amounts of "added sugar." Pies, cakes, flapjacks, doughnuts were all good ways for people to get the calories they needed to perform heavy work with little to no mechanical assistance . My grandmother, who was born in the 19th century, still made doughnuts at home about 60 years ago; she made brownies regularly to use the pecans her father shipped to her when he harvested them.
Not to mention the price of sugar in the 19th century. Many people couldn't afford sugar until mid 20th0 -
Just because something doesn't have physical withdrawal symptoms doesn't mean people can't become addicted. That argument is ridiculous. There wouldn't be EDA and OA if food addictions weren't a real thing. There is GA for gamblers...not a substance and no physical withdrawal but definitely an addiction for some.
If you were never addicted to anything kudos to you. If you have watched loved ones suffer I am truly sorry. I know my family suffered watching me for many years.
As someone who has struggled with addiction in many forms and lost many loved ones, my aunt to diabetes as a direct result of food addiction, I find this thread the hardest read I've ever come across on this forum.
Two points I need to make
1. Some people are prone to addictive compulsive tendancies and can become addicted to anything including sugar/foods. They will likely become drug addicts of they try it.
2. Some people are not prone to these behaviors and can enjoy what they like in moderation including things like sugar or alcohol
It's about that person and not the substance/activity.
Many of us specifically made the point that people can have a behavioral addiction to food. No one here has said that's not the case. We are saying that sugar is not a physically addictive substance, which is what the video in the OP was about.4 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Just because something doesn't have physical withdrawal symptoms doesn't mean people can't become addicted.
That there are behavior addictions and that it may be a behavioral addiction is a point that many in this thread have made (including me). If you have read the whole thread I am surprised you missed it.
I read the thread and how many people continued to bring up withdrawal. If you had read the entire thread you would realize I had already attempted to make the same point and was simply reiterating with different wording the point I attemped to make yesterday. I felt given the number of people trying to state it couldnt be an addiction without the withdrawal experienced with substances it warranted restating.1 -
TL;DR
Summary anyone?
Or should I just go right to a solid GIF and some popcorn? It is Friday night after all...1 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »I'm trying to imagine a parallel scenario where I would start smoking again even though it made no difference to my life apart from feeling less 'limited'.
In that my experience seems similar, here's what I see as the difference:
Smoking is bad for your health, eating added sugar in moderation is not.
Eating certain foods which contain added sugar (and for me anyway, baking them) is enjoyable, and in particular an intrinsic part of what I see as the traditional shared meal on certain holidays and other events. If I enjoy ice cream or a piece of apple pie occasionally (or both, as I had on Thanksgiving), why would I cut them out if they do me no harm.
Also, if I followed this with EVERY food (or part of a food) that does harm in excess, or seems to based on current evidence, my diet would be extremely limited (no sat fat, no meat, no added sugar, no refined grains, it could go on), then my diet would be awfully limited and dull, and that would affect my life overall.
Yes. I guess a more accurate parallel in my case would be booze. I can take it or leave it, although when I take it I do tend to take it to excess. I wouldn't see any reason to turn down a g&t (or six) at a gathering, but once it's over I'll go six months without even thinking about drinking. On the other hand that doesn't happen to me with sweet stuff. If I want (and have) some one day I'll want even more of it the next day.
This habit has kept me consistently 10–20 pounds above my ideal weight for most of my adult life, so it's one I'd surely like to break.
But your n=1 doesn't mean it's universally applicable to everybody.
Here's my n=1 as a counterpoint: I have no trouble whatsoever moderating sweets. I love chocolate and always have some kind of chocolate on hand in the house. I like a bit of it as dessert after dinner, and it's easy for me to take the bag down, take one or two pieces of chocolate and put the bag back away. I don't suffer any cravings, don't binge on it and some nights I skip it just because I don't feel like eating it. But I understand that my n=1 doesn't apply to everybody either. Some can moderate, some can't.
My wife is what most people would probably term a "sugar addict". If she knows there are sweets in the house, she obsesses over them being there and has to eat them. All of them. At once. Until they're gone. But if there are no sweets in the house (or I have them hidden so she doesn't know they're there, as per her request), she does without them just fine - no withdrawals, no cravings, no driving to the store to buy some because she can't do without them. They're not there, so she can't eat them and that's all there is to it. She'll munch on vegetables or a can of soup or whatever else instead. She's not a sugar addict, she's a boredom eater and has very poor impulse control.6 -
PrizePopple wrote: »TL;DR
Summary anyone?
Or should I just go right to a solid GIF and some popcorn? It is Friday night after all...
tl; dr: The same stuff you've seen in every "sugarz iz da debilz" thread ever on MFP.5 -
lynn_glenmont wrote: »@lyn_glenmont Buying a sack of sugar to add to cakes and pies and homemade treats is very different from having sugar added to almost everything you buy in a grocery store filled with processed food. Are you really arguing that people today eat in the same way they did 50 years ago--or in the 19th century?
Not exactly -- they had a lot less variety available to them, especially in the 19th century, but even just 50 years ago people in most parts of the U.S. had never seen kiwifruit or avocado; I know that from October to mid-May, I hardly ever had any fresh fruit other than apples, bananas, and citrus; there wasn't a lot of kale getting eaten either; most people were still boiling their veggies because the steaming and roasting methods hadn't become popular (other than root veggies roasted with a roast); most people's "leafy greens" consisted of a wedge of iceberg drowned in commercially bottled dressing (plenty of sugar there); popular cake, jello, and even savory meat dishes called for adding a bottle of Coke.
My mother made most of our meals from scratch, but I still remember how horrible jarred spaghetti sauce tasted to me the first time I had it, with all that added sugar. Lots of other families were obviously eating it, since grocery stores had plenty on the shelves -- there were lots of other "processed" convenience foods on the grocery store shelves 50 years ago, too.
In the 19th century, fruit was preserved for out-of-season consumption in a variety of canned forms, but they pretty much all involved substantial amounts of "added sugar." Pies, cakes, flapjacks, doughnuts were all good ways for people to get the calories they needed to perform heavy work with little to no mechanical assistance . My grandmother, who was born in the 19th century, still made doughnuts at home about 60 years ago; she made brownies regularly to use the pecans her father shipped to her when he harvested them.
Not to mention the price of sugar in the 19th century. Many people couldn't afford sugar until mid 20th
18th century: "Sugar becomes affordable to commoners, more widely used"
"1750 on: popularization of sweetened tea and treacle in the UK"
Mid-19th century: "Sugar prices fall precipitously over next decades"
"1850 on: opening up of mass consumption"
"Sugar consumption among poorer classes in UK exceeds that of wealthier after 1850; ingrediant in more and more daily meals; Rise in prepared/conserved foods: cans, bottles, packages"
"1870 on Jam widspread among working class in England
-data from industrial cities in Scotland show diets deficient in protein and excessive use of bread, butter and tea"
"1890s sugar production in world over 6 million tons; 500% increase from 30 years before
-90 lbs of sugar/person/year -total consumption over a billion pounds/year"
http://www.reed.edu/anthro/570/Chronologies/Week 5 Mintz Chron.html
So, clearly, sugar consumption is a brand new thing that's only a couple of decades old and obviously to blame for the rise in obesity over that time.9 -
PrizePopple wrote: »TL;DR
Summary anyone?
Or should I just go right to a solid GIF and some popcorn? It is Friday night after all...
tl; dr: The same stuff you've seen in every "sugarz iz da debilz" thread ever on MFP.
Oh okay.. back to eating my sugar loaded Fiber One Cheesecake and drinking wine then.4 -
Sure, someone enduring withdrawal symptoms can/will stress over it, but stress can also develop as lemurcat12 stated, a habit being broken.
I went for about six months as well, on my doctors very strong 'suggestion'. There were no issues, but I would say that missing something/strongly desiring/gaining pleasure from having...none of these are indicative of an addiction. Even stressing over not having isn't a good indicator either in my opinion.
edit: Instead of 'indicative" maybe I should say proof of....
Stressing over not having any I would think *is* a good indicator; surely it would fall into the category of a 'withdrawal symptom'?
One thing I ought to point out regarding me and addictions though, is that I'm a recovering alcoholic, so my view of what constitutes an addiction may be impacted by my experience with that, versus what's traditionally defined as an addiction per Merriam-Webster.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/addictionDefinition of addiction
1
: the quality or state of being addicted <addiction to reading>
2
: compulsive need for and use of a habit-forming substance (as heroin, nicotine, or alcohol) characterized by tolerance and by well-defined physiological symptoms upon withdrawal; broadly : persistent compulsive use of a substance known by the user to be harmful
"Known by the user to be harmful" - You see, that thought never entered my mind beyond a vague "I need to quit one day" until towards the end, and I was a consistent blackout drinker who would sit down for a relaxing beer at home and wake up a day or two later in another state, jail etc...you get the idea. The withdrawal symptoms were also brutal, to say the least.
Sugar on the other hand, has never (as far as I'm aware) been empirically proven to cause that particular dichotomy to be, taking a substance known to be extremely dangerous when taken in large quantities with nary a thought for certain, possible likely outcomes, based on personal knowledge gained through experience.
That last is important to me as I have personally known lung cancer patients who begged to be brought outside that they may have a cigarette, alcoholics like myself who, in spite of extremely damaging experiences, cannot muster the wherewithal to even make the decision to quit, until severe damage is done...
I've banged on the keyboard enough lol. All the above said - I DO understand where the question and topic of sugar "addiction" comes from. I just don't think it meets certain qualifiers.5 -
Dear Posters,
I wanted to offer a brief explanation for the locking of this thread. This discussion is welcome to continue in groups.
The forum guidelines include these items:
Guideline 1. No Attacks or Insults and No Reciprocation
a) Do not attack, mock, or otherwise insult others. You can respectfully disagree with the message or topic, but you cannot attack the messenger. This includes attacks against the user’s spelling or command of written English, or belittling a user for posting a duplicate topic.
b) If you are attacked by another user, and you reciprocate, you will also be subject to the same consequences. Defending yourself or a friend is not an excuse! Do not take matters into your own hands – instead, use the Report Post link to report an attack and we will be happy to handle the situation for you.
Guideline 2. No Hi-Jacking, Trolling, or Flame-baiting
Please stay on-topic in an existing thread, and post new threads in the appropriate forum. Taking a thread off-topic is considered hi-jacking. Please either contribute politely and constructively to a topic, or move on without posting. This includes posts that encourage the drama in a topic to escalate, or posts intended to incite an uproar from the community.
Guideline 4. Show Respect to All Groups and Individuals
No derogatory references to sex, gender, age, weight, body-type, disability, ethnicity, religion, or sexual orientation, or endorsement of violence against any person or group, even if couched in humor, will be permitted. This includes expressing stereotypes about any group or community.
If you would like to review the forum guidelines, please visit the following link:
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/welcome/guidelines
At our discretion, this locked thread may be deleted entirely in the near future.
With respect,
Sugar
MFP Moderator Team2
This discussion has been closed.
Categories
- All Categories
- 1.4M Health, Wellness and Goals
- 393.6K Introduce Yourself
- 43.8K Getting Started
- 260.3K Health and Weight Loss
- 176K Food and Nutrition
- 47.5K Recipes
- 232.6K Fitness and Exercise
- 431 Sleep, Mindfulness and Overall Wellness
- 6.5K Goal: Maintaining Weight
- 8.6K Goal: Gaining Weight and Body Building
- 153K Motivation and Support
- 8K Challenges
- 1.3K Debate Club
- 96.3K Chit-Chat
- 2.5K Fun and Games
- 3.8K MyFitnessPal Information
- 24 News and Announcements
- 1.1K Feature Suggestions and Ideas
- 2.6K MyFitnessPal Tech Support Questions