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Giving up sugar for good
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lemurcat12 wrote: »Just because something doesn't have physical withdrawal symptoms doesn't mean people can't become addicted.
That there are behavior addictions and that it may be a behavioral addiction is a point that many in this thread have made (including me). If you have read the whole thread I am surprised you missed it.
I read the thread and how many people continued to bring up withdrawal. If you had read the entire thread you would realize I had already attempted to make the same point and was simply reiterating with different wording the point I attemped to make yesterday. I felt given the number of people trying to state it couldnt be an addiction without the withdrawal experienced with substances it warranted restating.1 -
TL;DR
Summary anyone?
Or should I just go right to a solid GIF and some popcorn? It is Friday night after all...1 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »I'm trying to imagine a parallel scenario where I would start smoking again even though it made no difference to my life apart from feeling less 'limited'.
In that my experience seems similar, here's what I see as the difference:
Smoking is bad for your health, eating added sugar in moderation is not.
Eating certain foods which contain added sugar (and for me anyway, baking them) is enjoyable, and in particular an intrinsic part of what I see as the traditional shared meal on certain holidays and other events. If I enjoy ice cream or a piece of apple pie occasionally (or both, as I had on Thanksgiving), why would I cut them out if they do me no harm.
Also, if I followed this with EVERY food (or part of a food) that does harm in excess, or seems to based on current evidence, my diet would be extremely limited (no sat fat, no meat, no added sugar, no refined grains, it could go on), then my diet would be awfully limited and dull, and that would affect my life overall.
Yes. I guess a more accurate parallel in my case would be booze. I can take it or leave it, although when I take it I do tend to take it to excess. I wouldn't see any reason to turn down a g&t (or six) at a gathering, but once it's over I'll go six months without even thinking about drinking. On the other hand that doesn't happen to me with sweet stuff. If I want (and have) some one day I'll want even more of it the next day.
This habit has kept me consistently 10–20 pounds above my ideal weight for most of my adult life, so it's one I'd surely like to break.
But your n=1 doesn't mean it's universally applicable to everybody.
Here's my n=1 as a counterpoint: I have no trouble whatsoever moderating sweets. I love chocolate and always have some kind of chocolate on hand in the house. I like a bit of it as dessert after dinner, and it's easy for me to take the bag down, take one or two pieces of chocolate and put the bag back away. I don't suffer any cravings, don't binge on it and some nights I skip it just because I don't feel like eating it. But I understand that my n=1 doesn't apply to everybody either. Some can moderate, some can't.
My wife is what most people would probably term a "sugar addict". If she knows there are sweets in the house, she obsesses over them being there and has to eat them. All of them. At once. Until they're gone. But if there are no sweets in the house (or I have them hidden so she doesn't know they're there, as per her request), she does without them just fine - no withdrawals, no cravings, no driving to the store to buy some because she can't do without them. They're not there, so she can't eat them and that's all there is to it. She'll munch on vegetables or a can of soup or whatever else instead. She's not a sugar addict, she's a boredom eater and has very poor impulse control.6 -
PrizePopple wrote: »TL;DR
Summary anyone?
Or should I just go right to a solid GIF and some popcorn? It is Friday night after all...
tl; dr: The same stuff you've seen in every "sugarz iz da debilz" thread ever on MFP.5 -
lynn_glenmont wrote: »@lyn_glenmont Buying a sack of sugar to add to cakes and pies and homemade treats is very different from having sugar added to almost everything you buy in a grocery store filled with processed food. Are you really arguing that people today eat in the same way they did 50 years ago--or in the 19th century?
Not exactly -- they had a lot less variety available to them, especially in the 19th century, but even just 50 years ago people in most parts of the U.S. had never seen kiwifruit or avocado; I know that from October to mid-May, I hardly ever had any fresh fruit other than apples, bananas, and citrus; there wasn't a lot of kale getting eaten either; most people were still boiling their veggies because the steaming and roasting methods hadn't become popular (other than root veggies roasted with a roast); most people's "leafy greens" consisted of a wedge of iceberg drowned in commercially bottled dressing (plenty of sugar there); popular cake, jello, and even savory meat dishes called for adding a bottle of Coke.
My mother made most of our meals from scratch, but I still remember how horrible jarred spaghetti sauce tasted to me the first time I had it, with all that added sugar. Lots of other families were obviously eating it, since grocery stores had plenty on the shelves -- there were lots of other "processed" convenience foods on the grocery store shelves 50 years ago, too.
In the 19th century, fruit was preserved for out-of-season consumption in a variety of canned forms, but they pretty much all involved substantial amounts of "added sugar." Pies, cakes, flapjacks, doughnuts were all good ways for people to get the calories they needed to perform heavy work with little to no mechanical assistance . My grandmother, who was born in the 19th century, still made doughnuts at home about 60 years ago; she made brownies regularly to use the pecans her father shipped to her when he harvested them.
Not to mention the price of sugar in the 19th century. Many people couldn't afford sugar until mid 20th
18th century: "Sugar becomes affordable to commoners, more widely used"
"1750 on: popularization of sweetened tea and treacle in the UK"
Mid-19th century: "Sugar prices fall precipitously over next decades"
"1850 on: opening up of mass consumption"
"Sugar consumption among poorer classes in UK exceeds that of wealthier after 1850; ingrediant in more and more daily meals; Rise in prepared/conserved foods: cans, bottles, packages"
"1870 on Jam widspread among working class in England
-data from industrial cities in Scotland show diets deficient in protein and excessive use of bread, butter and tea"
"1890s sugar production in world over 6 million tons; 500% increase from 30 years before
-90 lbs of sugar/person/year -total consumption over a billion pounds/year"
http://www.reed.edu/anthro/570/Chronologies/Week 5 Mintz Chron.html
So, clearly, sugar consumption is a brand new thing that's only a couple of decades old and obviously to blame for the rise in obesity over that time.9 -
PrizePopple wrote: »TL;DR
Summary anyone?
Or should I just go right to a solid GIF and some popcorn? It is Friday night after all...
tl; dr: The same stuff you've seen in every "sugarz iz da debilz" thread ever on MFP.
Oh okay.. back to eating my sugar loaded Fiber One Cheesecake and drinking wine then.4 -
Sure, someone enduring withdrawal symptoms can/will stress over it, but stress can also develop as lemurcat12 stated, a habit being broken.
I went for about six months as well, on my doctors very strong 'suggestion'. There were no issues, but I would say that missing something/strongly desiring/gaining pleasure from having...none of these are indicative of an addiction. Even stressing over not having isn't a good indicator either in my opinion.
edit: Instead of 'indicative" maybe I should say proof of....
Stressing over not having any I would think *is* a good indicator; surely it would fall into the category of a 'withdrawal symptom'?
One thing I ought to point out regarding me and addictions though, is that I'm a recovering alcoholic, so my view of what constitutes an addiction may be impacted by my experience with that, versus what's traditionally defined as an addiction per Merriam-Webster.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/addictionDefinition of addiction
1
: the quality or state of being addicted <addiction to reading>
2
: compulsive need for and use of a habit-forming substance (as heroin, nicotine, or alcohol) characterized by tolerance and by well-defined physiological symptoms upon withdrawal; broadly : persistent compulsive use of a substance known by the user to be harmful
"Known by the user to be harmful" - You see, that thought never entered my mind beyond a vague "I need to quit one day" until towards the end, and I was a consistent blackout drinker who would sit down for a relaxing beer at home and wake up a day or two later in another state, jail etc...you get the idea. The withdrawal symptoms were also brutal, to say the least.
Sugar on the other hand, has never (as far as I'm aware) been empirically proven to cause that particular dichotomy to be, taking a substance known to be extremely dangerous when taken in large quantities with nary a thought for certain, possible likely outcomes, based on personal knowledge gained through experience.
That last is important to me as I have personally known lung cancer patients who begged to be brought outside that they may have a cigarette, alcoholics like myself who, in spite of extremely damaging experiences, cannot muster the wherewithal to even make the decision to quit, until severe damage is done...
I've banged on the keyboard enough lol. All the above said - I DO understand where the question and topic of sugar "addiction" comes from. I just don't think it meets certain qualifiers.5 -
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