May 2017 Running Challenge

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Replies

  • Stoshew71
    Stoshew71 Posts: 6,553 Member
    MNLittleFinn wrote: »
    My training took another half step today. I emailed to get Fitzgeralds opinion on me going for a faster marathon. Long story short, I'm waiting to hear from my wife to drop the money on it.

    Thank you to all the folks who have been giving me advice. If/when I flame out running, it will be because I'd rather fail gloriously than wonder if I could have done better...... Lol

    Don't make the mistake I made on my first marathon. Go conservative on your first 10 miles, and if you think it's too slow, go faster after that, but only by just a little bit. The real part of the marathon doesn't really start until after you cross the 20 mile marker.

    For my first marathon, I made the mistake of keeping moving my target race time to the left every few weeks. About a week before my marathon, I was actually convinced that I could get a 3:30 based upon my peak long run pace (21 miler) and the HM I ran 5 weeks before the race. I ended up starting with the 3:40 pace group and ended up dropping out from them around mile 16. I ended up doing a run/walk from mile 20 on. I ended up with a ~3:50 time.
  • Stoshew71
    Stoshew71 Posts: 6,553 Member
    mirelaavdich wrote: »
    I going to start training for a 10k this afternoon with a C10K app. I am planning on running my first 10k in October this year. Then half marathon spring 2018 and full marathon fall 2018. I am new at running (I just started running in March) and have loads of questions. Two I am obsessing about now are:

    Will I be able to do this as I planned? - I am one of those people that plans everything and I have to have deadlines and definite dates. I can run only 3 days a week because I am strength training 3 days a week too and I just do not have the energy to do both in one day. Since I enjoy running a lot more then strength training I will start running more soon. I have to lose 12 more pounds and tone my jiggly parts a bit more :smiley:

    Do runners take walking breaks when running full/half marathons or just run/jog?


    I agree with @lporter229 That running 3x a week is good enough for a 10K but maybe not for a HM, and definitely unadvisable for a full marathon.

    The article that @skippygirlsmom posted in my opinion (as @MobyCarp pointed out) is a recipe for an enjoyable full marathon experience and not just to BQ. For example, is it possible to train for a marathon running only 25 miles per week? Maybe, but I will almost guarantee that it will be so horrible of an experience (if you don't come out with a major injury) that you will not want to run another marathon again. I always said that running a marathon isn't really the hard part of running a marathon, it's the training to run a marathon that is the hard part. If you train right, the actual race day experience won't be so bad.

    My advise (again as @MobyCarp pointed out) worry about running a 10K first. Then after successfully running a 10K then sign up for and train for a HM. once you completed a HM, then sign up and train for a marathon. Your schedule may shift a bit to the right after you complete each milestone race. Then again, it may not shift to the right either.

    As far as run/walking a HM or full. Yes it is possible. If you plan to run/walk your first HM, I would do a few more HM's after that so you are comfortable running the whole HM completely before signing up for a full marathon. You will need that base to begin full marathon training. And that base comes from running more miles.

  • MobyCarp
    MobyCarp Posts: 2,927 Member
    May Running Totals (miles)
    5/1 – 5.16 easy
    5/2 – 6.67 easy
    5/3 – rest day
    5/4 – 8.08 easy
    5/5 – rest day
    5/6 – 11.23 loosely paced run
    5/7 – 11.08 easy with fast finish
    5/8 – 5.23 easy
    5/9 – 8.16 warm up, speed work, cool down
    5/10 – 5.66 group run
    5/11 – 7.25 easy plus 5 strides
    5/12 – rest day
    5/13 – 15.07 paced run
    5/14 – 7.20 easy
    5/15 – 6.03 easy
    5/16 – 10.63 warm up, speed work, cool down
    5/17 – 3.35 recovery run
    5/18 – 8.61 warm up, workout
    5/19 – rest day
    5/20 – 8.06 paced run
    5/21 – 7.90 warm up + Lilac 10K
    5/22 – 6.24 easy

    May total to date – 141.61

    Nominal Challenge Goal – 200 miles
    Real Goals: Stay healthy. Build base. 5/28, start training plan toward MVP Rochester Marathon.

    Today's notes – Today I dithered around for much of the morning, and didn't get out to run till mid afternoon. By then the temperature was 68º F (20º C) and I was a little concerned about heat; but not too much for an easy run. It turned out that there was a brisk west wind, and I was pretty comfortable running in a singlet and shorts. It also helped a lot that the humidity is still reasonable. Summer is coming, but it isn't here yet.

    By pure chance, the run came in at 6.24 miles, the same distance Garmin recorded for the Lilac 10K. Out of pure curiosity, I looked at the elevation gain and loss. Garmin says Lilac had 98 feet of gain, and today's run had 125 feet. I've run today's route or variations of it an awful lot of times; no wonder I wasn't intimidated by Lilac's uphill finish!

    2017 races:
    January 1, 2017 Freezeroo #2 (Resolution Run 7.5 mile) (Mendon, NY) Finished in 50:45
    January 7, 2017 Winter Warrior Half Marathon (Gates, NY) Finished in 1:32:40
    January 14, 2017 Freezeroo #3 (Pineway Ponds Park 5 mile) (Spencerport, NY) Finished in 33:42
    January 28, 2017 Freezeroo #4 (Hearnish 5 mile) (Victor, NY) short course, finished 4.88 miles in 32:50
    February 4, 2017 USATF Cross Country National Championship Masters 8K (Bend, OR) Finished in 35:39, team won the 60+ Men's cross country championship
    February 11, 2017 Freezeroo #5 (Valentines Run "In Memory of Tom Brannon" 8 Mile) (Greece, NY) sat out due to training schedule
    February 25, 2017 Freezeroo #6 (White House Challenge 4.4 mile) (Webster, NY) short course, finished 4.34 miles in 27:51
    March 11, 2017 Johnny's Runnin' of the Green 5 mile (Rochester, NY) finished in 33:25
    March 18, 2017 USATF Masters 8K Championship (Shamrock 8K, Virginia Beach, VA) finished in 30:59, PR for 8K
    April 17, 2017 Boston Marathon (Hopkinton, MA) finished in 3:49:42
    April 30, 2017 USATF Masters 10K Championship (James Joyce Ramble, Dedham, MA) finished in 39:54, PR for 10K
    May 21, 2017 Lilac Run 10K (Rochester, NY) finished in 40:04
    June 9, 2017 Charlie McMullen Mile (Rochester, NY)
    June 18, 2017 Medved 5K to Cure ALS (Rochester, NY)
    July 28, 2017 Karknocker 5K (East Rochester, NY)
    September 17, 2017 MVP Rochester Marathon (Rochester, NY)
    November 23, 2017 Race with Grace 10K (Hilton, NY)
  • WhatMeRunning
    WhatMeRunning Posts: 3,538 Member
    edited May 2017
    mirelaavdich wrote: »
    I going to start training for a 10k this afternoon with a C10K app. I am planning on running my first 10k in October this year. Then half marathon spring 2018 and full marathon fall 2018. I am new at running (I just started running in March) and have loads of questions. Two I am obsessing about now are:

    Will I be able to do this as I planned? - I am one of those people that plans everything and I have to have deadlines and definite dates. I can run only 3 days a week because I am strength training 3 days a week too and I just do not have the energy to do both in one day. Since I enjoy running a lot more then strength training I will start running more soon. I have to lose 12 more pounds and tone my jiggly parts a bit more :smiley:

    Do runners take walking breaks when running full/half marathons or just run/jog?
    Let me give some perspective, in case it helps at all.

    I never ran. Ever. Fast forward to 2014 and 42 years of age. That spring I started walking after starting to get my health in order and weight down. By mid-June I was doing 2 hours walks and needed more, but didn't think I had the time for more. So I started running for brief bursts of maybe a couple hundred feet or so during my walks. In September I ran my first 10k (3 months after that first "run"). In November I ran my first half marathon (just 2 months after the 10k). I would have been better served waiting a couple more months for that first half, but I did it. I ran 5 more half marathons in the spring of 2015, and then ran my first full marathon in October 2015, just 16 months after I first "ran" for maybe that couple hundred feet the year prior on one of my walks.

    Do I think you can do it? If I can, why not you?

    ETA - While I ran that whole first 10k (I was determined), I walked parts of my first 6 half marathons, and parts of my first full. To give some honesty and additional perspective, I had still never run a full mile before the day of that 10k. There was a mental block, and also I had never paced with other runners like I did by running at the back of the pack that day. That event taught me a lot.
  • Stoshew71
    Stoshew71 Posts: 6,553 Member
    mirelaavdich wrote: »
    I can run only 3 days a week because I am strength training 3 days a week too and I just do not have the energy to do both in one day. Since I enjoy running a lot more then strength training I will start running more soon.

    here are some articles that may be of interest when combining running with strength training:

    https://runnersconnect.net/myths-about-strength-training-for-distance-runners/

    http://www.runnersworld.com/newswire/how-best-to-combine-strength-training-and-running

    https://www.outsideonline.com/1784841/should-i-do-strength-and-cardio-same-day

    http://www.livestrong.com/article/543079-should-you-run-on-the-days-you-lift-weights/

    http://www.livestrong.com/article/550977-how-to-run-in-the-morning-lift-later-on/
  • lporter229
    lporter229 Posts: 4,907 Member
    Stoshew71 wrote: »
    MNLittleFinn wrote: »
    My training took another half step today. I emailed to get Fitzgeralds opinion on me going for a faster marathon. Long story short, I'm waiting to hear from my wife to drop the money on it.

    Thank you to all the folks who have been giving me advice. If/when I flame out running, it will be because I'd rather fail gloriously than wonder if I could have done better...... Lol

    Don't make the mistake I made on my first marathon. Go conservative on your first 10 miles, and if you think it's too slow, go faster after that, but only by just a little bit. The real part of the marathon doesn't really start until after you cross the 20 mile marker.

    100% agree. And what happens in those last 6.2 miles is HIGHLY dependent on how you manage the first 20. Statistics say that the winner of most marathons does it with negative or close to negative splits and there is a reason for that. If you have the energy in there to get your goal, it will be there in the end. No need to use it up in the beginning of the race. In my BQ marathon, my second half average pace was 22 seconds faster than my first, with my last quarter average pace being 40 seconds per mile faster than my first quarter, mostly because I started out slower than goal. It can be done. Keep practicing that fast finish long run and you will be fine!


  • MNLittleFinn
    MNLittleFinn Posts: 4,271 Member
    lporter229 wrote: »
    Stoshew71 wrote: »
    MNLittleFinn wrote: »
    My training took another half step today. I emailed to get Fitzgeralds opinion on me going for a faster marathon. Long story short, I'm waiting to hear from my wife to drop the money on it.

    Thank you to all the folks who have been giving me advice. If/when I flame out running, it will be because I'd rather fail gloriously than wonder if I could have done better...... Lol

    Don't make the mistake I made on my first marathon. Go conservative on your first 10 miles, and if you think it's too slow, go faster after that, but only by just a little bit. The real part of the marathon doesn't really start until after you cross the 20 mile marker.

    100% agree. And what happens in those last 6.2 miles is HIGHLY dependent on how you manage the first 20. Statistics say that the winner of most marathons does it with negative or close to negative splits and there is a reason for that. If you have the energy in there to get your goal, it will be there in the end. No need to use it up in the beginning of the race. In my BQ marathon, my second half average pace was 22 seconds faster than my first, with my last quarter average pace being 40 seconds per mile faster than my first quarter, mostly because I started out slower than goal. It can be done. Keep practicing that fast finish long run and you will be fine!


    Thanks for the advice all. That is my general plan anyway, start slower than what ever is goal pace then, hopefully, speed up as I go. I managed sub-9:30 the last 3 miles of my first 20 mile run. Last 2 mileswere 9:10. Though that was a fairly flat run

    My last 2 scheduled long runs are both 18 miles with the last 5 miles each "at marathon pace," unless that changes to something more specific after my coaching call.

    There's lots of time for me to change my mind multiple times....lol.... "good" news is that I really have no ambition for anything more than a possible sub-4 attempt, and the reason I thought about that is the local runner I ran with encouraging me to go for it.

    Sorry foe the long reply!
  • MNLittleFinn
    MNLittleFinn Posts: 4,271 Member
    http://m.startribune.com/veteran-eagan-distance-runner-collapses-dies-on-rigorous-north-shore-race-course/423689293/

    The local community lost a runner over the weekend. This race was farther north than than my planned 50k, but still on the Superior Hiking Trail.
  • 9voice9
    9voice9 Posts: 693 Member
    76.64% of goal

    01-May: 6.51 miles
    02-May: 6.70 miles
    03-May: 3.30 miles
    04-May: 6.70 miles
    05-May: 6.65 miles
    06-May: 10.91 miles - inc All About Animals 10.2K
    07-May: <Life Day>
    08-May: 9.46 miles
    09-May: 5.81 miles
    10-May:
    11-May: 9.25 miles (Double Day)
    12-May: 6.09 miles
    13-May: 11.48 miles - inc Back the Blue 10K
    14-May: <Life Day>
    15-May: 3.33 miles
    16-May: 7.25 miles
    17-May: 3.37 miles
    18-May: 5.90 miles
    19-May: 6.34 miles
    20-May: 13.13 miles - The River Church FREE HM
    21-May: <Life Day>
    22-May: 6.63 miles - I'm counting this as Peachtree Road Race (HEAT!) training!
    23-May:
    24-May:
    25-May:
    26-May:
    27-May: - Race Day
    28-May: <Life Day>
    29-May:
    30-May:
    31-May:

    exercise.png

    Upcoming Races:
    27-May: Edge Fitness 5K, Bonaire (*)
    29-May: wear blue Memorial Day Run, Warner Robins
    04-Jul: Peachtree Road Race 10K, Atlanta
  • skippygirlsmom
    skippygirlsmom Posts: 4,433 Member
    5/1 - 5 miles
    5/2 - 5 miles
    5/3 - 3 miles
    5/4 - rest day
    5/5 - 2 miles
    5/6 - 5 miles - Steeple Chase 8K
    5/7 - rest day
    5/8 - 5 miles
    5/9 - 3 miles
    5/10 - rest day
    5/11 - 5 miles
    5/12 - 3 miles
    5/13 - 4 miles - Technicolor 5K and cool down
    5/14 - Mother's day and this Mother didn't run :wink:
    5/15 - 2 miles now this Mother was sorry she didn't run yesterday because this run was *kitten*
    5/16 - 6 miles
    5/17 - rest day
    5/18 - 4 miles
    5/19 - 6 very hot even at 5:30 am miles :smile:
    5/20 - 2 miles just to move the legs - ugh 80 degrees at 8:00 - I love summer!!
    5/21 - rest day
    5/22 - 5 miles

    65 of 60 miles

    I thought it was a rest day, but Skip called and asked me to go with her at the Greenway after work to run so I did.


    Races:

    5/6 - Steeple Chase 8K - 3 in AG
    5/13 - Technicolor 5K - 2 in AG
    5/29 - Cotton Row 10K
  • juliet3455
    juliet3455 Posts: 3,015 Member
    skippygirlsmom wrote: »
    @karllundy ha ha!!! When trail running or at the greenway I can step off the trail, the problem is the neighborhood, no where to step off except 1 empty lot. ha ha
    I know of a local Lady ( 3hr drive radius = local ) who stepped off course at a HM, around a hedge and did the deed, just to hear "FORE" and a little white ball came rolling by. :) Personally if that happened to me I would never tell anyone.
    Never ended up sockless but green grass is better softer than dry grass ;)
    MNLittleFinn wrote: »
    If/when I flame out running, it will be because I'd rather fail gloriously than wonder if I could have done better...... Lol
    Moth flying into the candle.

    @katharmonic That just looks like peaceful bliss as a place to run
    @JessicaMcB Sorry that your caps subluxated, can't even imagine the pain/discomfort. Surprised they had the HM runners mixed in with the FM.

    10 km Riverbank Trail run. A bit of a slow slog as for us it went from 11C ( 51F ) to 26C ( 79F ) during the weekend so rather warm for us Northern Folk. One item I added into my routine this spring was some speed work and trying to Bust a fast Km ( Sub 5:15/km ) at the end of my mid-distance easy runs. Today it was just to warm and after 1/2 km the body started to revolt, pulled back to 6:00/km and finished off - safety over ride's the risk of heat induced injury.

    2 more easy runs this week then rest for DHT 10k on Saturday, 2nd of a 3 race series. Got an AG 3rd in the 1st one, If I can get a placement in both of the remaining events gets me a $300.00 Shopping spree at a local running store. If the one of the other runners from the 1st event does not place/finish I only need a placement finish for the $300.00 with a shot at $400.00 or even $500.00. I might be wishing for really crappy weather at one of the events as the 1st & 2nd AG are both fair weather runners. >:)

    05/01 0 km – 160 km - 0 km – YTD 420.15
    05/01 11.5 km – 148.5 km - 11.5km
    05/02 5.5 km – 143.0 km - 17.0km
    05/03 10.0 km – 133.0 km - 27.0km
    05/04 7.5 km – 125.5 km - 34.50km
    05/07 7.0 km – 118.5 km - 41.50km
    05/08 11.5 km – 107.0 km - 53.0km
    05/09 6.0 km – 101.0 km - 59.0km
    05/08 7.7 km – 93.3 km - 66.7km
    05/14 9.9 km – 83.4 km - 76.6km – YTD 496.75 Brian Harms 10k Race GP PB 54:29
    05/16 8.0 km – 75.4 km - 84.6km
    05/17 8.2 km – 67.2 km - 92.8km
    05/20 11.4km – 55.8 km - 104.2km
    05/22 10.0km – 45.8 km - 114.2km – YTD 534.35 Riverbank

    exercise.png
  • JessicaMcB
    JessicaMcB Posts: 1,503 Member
    @juliet3455 I was surprised as well, we were running blended with the half runners until the 19k mark or so and then they split off back to the finish and we looped. I thought it was weird but no one else seemed to bat an eye so I figured it was just me.

    I'm also glad I'm not the only Alberta runner who was dying of the heat this weekend ;) lol. I hope you get your shopping spree because shorts ain't free and this summer is gonna be brutally hot
  • Orphia
    Orphia Posts: 7,097 Member
    @girlinahat Oh wow, you've got my attention!!

    WhatMeRunning wrote: »
    @shanaber - It's been a couple years since I used free Strava, so things may be different now. Back then it would gather your HR data but not offer the "suffer score" or show the breakdown of your run within your customized hr zones. It also never captured cadence or other running metrics despite both my HRM and phone being capable of providing it, had to use other apps for those. Things may be different now.

    Strava gives you a suffer score, heart rate zone analysis, pace chart, elevation chart, lots more besides. I'm still discovering new (to me) features.
  • MNLittleFinn
    MNLittleFinn Posts: 4,271 Member
    edited May 2017
    Up early and not running...gggrrr..... got up, got dressed and realized that pain above my left kneecap was still there..... decided my 4 miles plus strides wasn't worth it since I'm 6 miles up from what my plan says for this far in the month and 10 miles up from where I need to be to make my goal (because I counted strides toward mirage and the plan doesn't)..... currently on the couch with knee elevated and ice on it...... I may KT tape it for the day, that helped yeaterday....... stupid sitting in a moving truck all day Saturday......
  • fk_runner
    fk_runner Posts: 1 Member
    been on and off here of late through injury...now i have a ligament strain so out of action for a while sadly...need my butt kicked to get back on straight and narrow
  • SweetSassyJen
    SweetSassyJen Posts: 129 Member
    May goal: 50 miles
    May 22: 3.82 miles
    May total: 43.38 miles
  • garygse
    garygse Posts: 896 Member
    Today's morning run was with the group. And when I say group, I really mean one other person, as everyone else bailed for one reason or another. Maybe they all believed Accuweather when it said it would rain? Which it didn't.

    01 - 13.50
    02 - 10.58
    03 - 13.49
    04 - 9.80
    05 - 20.14
    08 - 12.99
    09 - 9.77
    10 - 13.42
    11 - 5.69
    12 - 20.28
    15 - 6.01
    16 - 8.04
    18 - 8.31
    19 - 13.41
    22 - 13.44
    23 - 9.16

    Total: 188.03 / 225 miles
  • WhatMeRunning
    WhatMeRunning Posts: 3,538 Member
    Four miles at easy effort today to maintain mileage and fitness, and to aid recovery from yesterday's long run with tempo intervals. I was a bit tight at first but loosened up and finished with a great pace. It was cool and misty out so that probably made the pace that nice.

    5/1 - 8 miles
    5/2 - 4 miles
    5/3 - 8 miles
    5/4 - 4 miles
    5/5 - rest
    5/6 - 9 miles
    5/7 - 4 miles
    5/8 - 6 miles
    5/9 - 4 miles
    5/10 - 6 miles
    5/11 - rest
    5/12 - more rest
    5/13 - 13 miles (plus 0.1)
    5/14 - 4 miles
    5/15 - 8 miles
    5/16 - 4 miles
    5/17 - 8 miles
    5/18 - 4 miles
    5/19 - rest
    5/20 - 13.5 miles
    5/21 - 4 miles
    5/22 - 8 miles
    5/23 - 4 miles

    123.5 of 180 miles completed


    exercise.png
  • lporter229
    lporter229 Posts: 4,907 Member
    @mirelaavdich - When I can't find the time to fit in both my running and strength training, I try to improvise with the strength training and fit it in in bits and pieces throughout the day: calf raises on the steps at lunch time, squats while cooking dinner, lunges while walking the dog, etc. OTOH, I am the one who is on a six week hiatus from running due to an injury, so maybe I am not the best person to be giving advice.

  • snowyne
    snowyne Posts: 268 Member

    5/1 - 3.5 mi.
    5/2 - rest
    5/3 - 6.2 mi
    5/4 - 4.5 mi.
    5/5 - 3.8 mi.
    5/6 - 3.1 (5K race)
    5/7 - rest
    5/8 - 5.2 mi.
    5/9 - 3.7 mi.
    5/10 - 3.8 mi.
    5/11 - rest (legs needed it)
    5/12 - 5.2 mi.
    5/13 - 3.2mi.
    5/17 - 2.2mi.
    5/22 - 3.1mi.
    5/23- 3.1mi.

    May goal: 50.6/100mi.
  • Stoshew71
    Stoshew71 Posts: 6,553 Member
    I didn't go to bed last night as early as I wanted. Got up at 4:30 this morning for my group run and heard it pouring. I said screw it and went back to bed for another hour. I only got in 5 this morning, but plan to do a double during lunch time to make up for the shortened miles.


    Date Miles today - Miles for May
    5/1 REST DAY
    5/2 REST DAY
    5/3 REST DAY
    5/4 REST DAY
    5/5 REST DAY
    5/6 REST DAY
    5/7 REST DAY <<<<<<< marathon recovery
    5/8 4.25 miles - 4.25
    5/9 5 miles - 9.25
    5/10 REST DAY
    5/11 5 miles - 14.25
    5/12 REST DAY
    5/13 12 miles - 26.25
    5/14 REST DAY
    5/15 6.2 miles - 32.45
    5/16 7.25 miles - 39.7
    5/17 4 miles - 43.7
    5/18 7 miles - 50.7
    5/19 REST DAY
    5/20 14 miles - 64.7
    5/21 REST DAY
    5/22 7 miles - 71.7
    5/23 5 miles - 76.7

    exercise.png

    Elkmont Hound Dog Half (unofficial) - 1/21 << 1:46:48 2 OA
    Elkmont Hound Dog Half (rescheduled) - 2/18 << 1:41:04 1 in AG & 24 OA
    Kentucky Derby Festival Marathon - 4/29 << 4:09:59


  • skippygirlsmom
    skippygirlsmom Posts: 4,433 Member
    @stoshew71 it was definitely pouring, I did the same, looked out the window and went back to bed.
    @jessicamcB super race in-spite of it not being what you were looking for, sorry about the knees, ouch ouch ouch!
    @juliet3455 I'm dying laughing at the golf ball story and I'll be sure to keep in mind that green grass is softer LOL
    @girlinahat love the pictures from Italy, enjoy!
    @katiejane83 I've been waiting for your report, it was a fun read. Congrats on the super time and your OA and AG placement, fantastic! I had to laugh at the drinking out of a cup, I'm lucky to get one sip, you'll have to video and show us your technique :smiley:

    Did run today woke up and it was raining, which is probably okay. My torn labrum nerve was talking to me during the run last night and still a bit this morning. The ortho said I would know the pain was the labrum nerve when it came from my hip and curved in towards my groin and that would be it. Since I'm at goal I figured an extra day off wouldn't hurt.

    Also question for you all. For the first time ever I have been having really really really tight calves during my runs, like a painful stiff feeling. Last night I stopped at mile 1 and stretched and it was annoying after that. I do dynamic stretching before and static after so it's kinda weird. Could it be a hydration issue? Gotta admit I've been at hydrating lately. thanks!
  • snowyne
    snowyne Posts: 268 Member
    Congrats on the great race @KatieJane83! Love the pics!
This discussion has been closed.

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