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What are your unpopular opinions about health / fitness?
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mom2kateRH wrote: »WJS_jeepster wrote: »My unpopular opinion is that there is no way we all need to be drinking all this water. I see multiple people bring in their water bottles for a 45 MINUTE church service. Seriously? I know some people may have medical conditions or dry mouth or whatever, but your average person can't make it 45 minutes without their water?? It's like a weird status thing.
I totally agree with this! I remember going to a lecture on urinary incontinence in women, and the lecturer said at one point, "sometimes, it just boils down to a woman just drinking too much water! I mean, the recommendation for eight 8 oz glasses of water a day was pulled out of thin air!"
Yes, I think if you are thirsty water is the best thing to drink, yes, if you are going on a run in hot weather, hydrate. but you do not need to drink to the point your urine has no yellow in it at all, and feeling thirsty is not a sign you are way too dehydrated and it's too late (which is what I was told many years ago when I first started running).
anyway, sorry if this post is a distraction!
It's not.
I'm actually even more grouchy about the water thing -- I think that people obsessing about drinking water and counting water has nothing to do with weight loss and thinking that it does is, well, woo. (In other words, it is too good to be true to claim that just drinking more water will cause weight loss.) ;-)
I used to see people competing here to see who could drink the most water or getting congrats for drinking 25 cups or whatever the measure is, and I found it puzzling. I never track water (I always drink lots, always have, since I like water and like to have a beverage by me at all times and dislike eating without also having some water), but used to mark my water as complete just because otherwise nice well-meaning people would assume I wasn't drinking and feel compelled to give me advice that I should.
I'm a big grouch in general, though. Probably too much water! ;-)6 -
Strawblackcat wrote: »What does any of the previous three or so pages of this topic have to do with our unpopular health opinions?
Clearly one or both sides of the discussion is unpopular.
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janejellyroll wrote: »born_of_fire74 wrote: »Mansplaining isn't a thing. Just because a man can't experience something personally, doesn't mean he doesn't know anything about it.
... And before you say 'I' am mansplaining, if you are still deludedly adament that I am, the same can in turn be applied to women. You don't know what men are experiencing, so don't 'womansplain'... Oh wait, does that sound ridiculous?
If mansplaining is not a thing, why do I have men at my parts counter (incorrectly) telling me how their car works when I'm a certified automotive technician and automotive parts person with over 17 years of experience in the industry? If illakso domansplaining is not a thing, why do I have men at my parts counter arguing with me when they have come to the dealership to tap my knowledge and experience? (Like the tardball I just got off the phone with insisting that a wire is run directly from the battery to his 7-pin hitch connector only moments ago). If mansplaining is not a thing, why are there men at my parts counter who do not believe me when I tell them something but have no trouble believing any one of the men I work with when they say the exact same thing as I just did?
How about you GTFOH with your "mansplaining is not a thing" garbage?
I would 'awesome' and 'insightful' this times six if I could.
Nice guys: Pay attention around you. There are men (a.k.a. arrogant jerks) around you who do this to woman experts who would not do it to you, even if you're an innocent amateur. Some of them will also do it to other men they implicitly perceive as down-status: Men of color, men who are not native born or for whom their (fluent, yet accented) English is not their first language, even men with certain regional accents in some cases. (P.S. This is why I don't use the term "mansplaining" other than in extreme jest: It's really about implicitly perceived general power, knowedge, dominance. Gender is just one case.)
You're a Good Guy. Don't concede to facile assumptions that others are nice like you. Notice. Counter.
The problem with this is that by using such a prejudicial term you have lumped all men - good and bad together, so we now hang based on the lowest common denominator.
This doesn't further the discussion or resolve the issue. Call out the individual for bad behavior.
Just to be clear: I explicitly distanced myself from the "prejudicial term" - assuming you mean "mansplaining". I explained that I think that some men, i.e. a certain subset who are arrogant jerks, do pretty much the same thing to other men they perceive as down-status from them.
I'd equally agree that certain women who are arrogant jerks do the same thing to both men and women they perceive as down-status, but (1) that wasn't what we were discussing, and (2) I think it's somewhat less common a scenario.
This is about as close to calling out individuals as one can get in a broad discussion, I think. I've called individual people out for it in real life - for talking down to others in an arrogant way, based on (frankly) prejudiced assumptions they were making (i.e., not for "mansplaining").
I've asked that decent men who don't treat women in the ways described up-thread please just notice that this stuff actually happens (and, by implication, believe the women who say it does). It's frequent, it's routine. It's because of some people's (some men's) perceptions about women. It's about gender, in these specific cases.
I spent 30 years in IT, starting when there weren't many women. It's happened to me, and the few women around me in that work setting, over, and over, and over -
men talking to less-expert men when I was the expert; men trying to make deals with men whose manager I was when I was present; etc. I'm not someone who sees sexism behind every shrub, whether it's present or not.
It's a thing, whether you have a special prejudicial word for it or not.
Why is this so hard to believe?
Is anyone refusing to believe that *kitten* inhabit the world? This is strawman construction. If we must down this road, then yes I've been wronged by men and women, but I focused ill thoughts to that individual and did not prosecute an entire gender based on the actions of a bad actor.
It happens to anyone entering a gender dominated field. Weak minds are easily threatened by competition. Male nurses, female engineers, etc. What is the end goal of this?
Simply call out bad behavior. I am no more responsible for the actions of a bad acting male than you are a bad acting female.
Hard to believe anyone is actually wasting time defending a prejudicial term.
the end goal is that we all have to acknowledge every groups grievance no matter how ridiculous in the name of the all knowing god of political correctness. Honestly, this is just another way to divide people into groups and then pit them against each other.
Exactly - Political correctness has been and always will be tyranny disguised as manners. Very attractive at first when you are a member of the deemed victimized demographic, but this is fleeting once you have served your purpose and those in power have moved on to the next divide and conquer tactic.
Agreed - it basically starts off as "free speech" and then turns to fascism/tyranny because other people then cannot say anything critical of the affected group, because they are then immediately branded as racist, bigoted, sexist, etc, etc...
If the argument is that people can't say anything critical because they don't like what people *might* say back to them, that's not a very robust argument for how political correctness is tyranny.
You're just imposing an expectation for silence on a different group of people, that's all.
I fully believe that those who have negative things to say about groups of people should be able to express their thoughts. People in those groups (or others who have a reaction to it) should have the same freedom to express their thoughts about those statements.
If a man wants to talk to me in a certain way, he should have every right to do so. Why would someone who also believes that think that I should stifle anything I wish to express in return because he doesn't like being called sexist?
no, my argument is that these affected groups want free speech, but if you dare and try and challenge anything they say, they then shut you down....
see Berkeley as the most recent example...
I wasn't thinking of Berkeley because what you wrote was "Other people then cannot say anything critical of the affected group, because they are then immediately branded as racist, bigoted, sexist, etc."
If you're talking about not being able to speak at a university, that seems to be a separate topic. What I was responding to was the claim that a negative verbal/written reaction to one's words somehow represents tyranny.
In a society with free speech, it seems to me that it goes both ways. Sometimes when you say something someone doesn't appreciate, they will exercise their free speech in response. Setting aside the separate, contentious, issue of protests and counter-protests at universities, do you object to people responding to a negative or critical statement made about a group with a written or verbal critique?6 -
stanmann571 wrote: »clicketykeys wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »clicketykeys wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »born_of_fire74 wrote: »Mansplaining isn't a thing. Just because a man can't experience something personally, doesn't mean he doesn't know anything about it.
... And before you say 'I' am mansplaining, if you are still deludedly adament that I am, the same can in turn be applied to women. You don't know what men are experiencing, so don't 'womansplain'... Oh wait, does that sound ridiculous?
If mansplaining is not a thing, why do I have men at my parts counter (incorrectly) telling me how their car works when I'm a certified automotive technician and automotive parts person with over 17 years of experience in the industry? If mansplaining is not a thing, why do I have men at my parts counter arguing with me when they have come to the dealership to tap my knowledge and experience? (Like the tardball I just got off the phone with insisting that a wire is run directly from the battery to his 7-pin hitch connector only moments ago). If mansplaining is not a thing, why are there men at my parts counter who do not believe me when I tell them something but have no trouble believing any one of the men I work with when they say the exact same thing as I just did?
How about you GTFOH with your "mansplaining is not a thing" garbage?
It's entirely possible that it has to do with where you're standing and how you're dressed vs your gender.
So what's your theory for why we don't hear guys complaining how their customers refuse to accept their answer and then accept the same information from a female coworker nearly as often? Do you think women are just more sensitive and less capable of observing events rationally?
So your saying this never, ever happens??
Well, she did say "why don't we hear . . . nearly as often".
I'm thinking there's a hint about the answer to your question in there somewhere.
Perhaps its because "guys" are conditioned/trained/nurtured to desire, embrace, pursue, accept, and flourish in opposition and adversity..
That doesn't seem to have anything to do with the point at hand - the observation that more women than men say they experience having their knowledge and expertise shown disrespect by people not listening to them, explaining things to them that they already know, and/or talking over them, and in many cases listening instead to a male with less knowledge or expertise.
What does being trained to flourish in adversity have to do with this?
Men experience disrespect and move on. They don't talk about it *In Public*. and they generally don't complain about how someone disrespected their "nametag and certification".
For the record anyone... male or female who demands respect based on a "nametag and certificate" isn't likely to get it.
IMO, a nametag and a certificate are a better reason for professional respect than gender, which is the main variable being discussed. Additionally, the certificate is a mark of the person's knowledge and expertise, which are the points I specifically mentioned.
We're also talking about a specific sort of disrespect - being ignored in favor of someone with less knowledge or expertise. Are you claiming that men experience that at an equivalent rate to women? And if so, why is it being hushed up? Because not only do I not hear men complain about it, I haven't witnessed it - while I have witnessed it happen to women, as well as experiencing it myself.
To clarify: I'm not saying that men don't experience disrespect. My claim is that this particular type of disrespect is significantly more often experienced by women, and in those cases, usually perpetuated by men.17 -
janejellyroll wrote: »born_of_fire74 wrote: »Mansplaining isn't a thing. Just because a man can't experience something personally, doesn't mean he doesn't know anything about it.
... And before you say 'I' am mansplaining, if you are still deludedly adament that I am, the same can in turn be applied to women. You don't know what men are experiencing, so don't 'womansplain'... Oh wait, does that sound ridiculous?
If mansplaining is not a thing, why do I have men at my parts counter (incorrectly) telling me how their car works when I'm a certified automotive technician and automotive parts person with over 17 years of experience in the industry? If illakso domansplaining is not a thing, why do I have men at my parts counter arguing with me when they have come to the dealership to tap my knowledge and experience? (Like the tardball I just got off the phone with insisting that a wire is run directly from the battery to his 7-pin hitch connector only moments ago). If mansplaining is not a thing, why are there men at my parts counter who do not believe me when I tell them something but have no trouble believing any one of the men I work with when they say the exact same thing as I just did?
How about you GTFOH with your "mansplaining is not a thing" garbage?
I would 'awesome' and 'insightful' this times six if I could.
Nice guys: Pay attention around you. There are men (a.k.a. arrogant jerks) around you who do this to woman experts who would not do it to you, even if you're an innocent amateur. Some of them will also do it to other men they implicitly perceive as down-status: Men of color, men who are not native born or for whom their (fluent, yet accented) English is not their first language, even men with certain regional accents in some cases. (P.S. This is why I don't use the term "mansplaining" other than in extreme jest: It's really about implicitly perceived general power, knowedge, dominance. Gender is just one case.)
You're a Good Guy. Don't concede to facile assumptions that others are nice like you. Notice. Counter.
The problem with this is that by using such a prejudicial term you have lumped all men - good and bad together, so we now hang based on the lowest common denominator.
This doesn't further the discussion or resolve the issue. Call out the individual for bad behavior.
Just to be clear: I explicitly distanced myself from the "prejudicial term" - assuming you mean "mansplaining". I explained that I think that some men, i.e. a certain subset who are arrogant jerks, do pretty much the same thing to other men they perceive as down-status from them.
I'd equally agree that certain women who are arrogant jerks do the same thing to both men and women they perceive as down-status, but (1) that wasn't what we were discussing, and (2) I think it's somewhat less common a scenario.
This is about as close to calling out individuals as one can get in a broad discussion, I think. I've called individual people out for it in real life - for talking down to others in an arrogant way, based on (frankly) prejudiced assumptions they were making (i.e., not for "mansplaining").
I've asked that decent men who don't treat women in the ways described up-thread please just notice that this stuff actually happens (and, by implication, believe the women who say it does). It's frequent, it's routine. It's because of some people's (some men's) perceptions about women. It's about gender, in these specific cases.
I spent 30 years in IT, starting when there weren't many women. It's happened to me, and the few women around me in that work setting, over, and over, and over -
men talking to less-expert men when I was the expert; men trying to make deals with men whose manager I was when I was present; etc. I'm not someone who sees sexism behind every shrub, whether it's present or not.
It's a thing, whether you have a special prejudicial word for it or not.
Why is this so hard to believe?
Is anyone refusing to believe that *kitten* inhabit the world? This is strawman construction. If we must down this road, then yes I've been wronged by men and women, but I focused ill thoughts to that individual and did not prosecute an entire gender based on the actions of a bad actor.
It happens to anyone entering a gender dominated field. Weak minds are easily threatened by competition. Male nurses, female engineers, etc. What is the end goal of this?
Simply call out bad behavior. I am no more responsible for the actions of a bad acting male than you are a bad acting female.
Hard to believe anyone is actually wasting time defending a prejudicial term.
the end goal is that we all have to acknowledge every groups grievance no matter how ridiculous in the name of the all knowing god of political correctness. Honestly, this is just another way to divide people into groups and then pit them against each other.
Exactly - Political correctness has been and always will be tyranny disguised as manners. Very attractive at first when you are a member of the deemed victimized demographic, but this is fleeting once you have served your purpose and those in power have moved on to the next divide and conquer tactic.
Agreed - it basically starts off as "free speech" and then turns to fascism/tyranny because other people then cannot say anything critical of the affected group, because they are then immediately branded as racist, bigoted, sexist, etc, etc...
If the argument is that people can't say anything critical because they don't like what people *might* say back to them, that's not a very robust argument for how political correctness is tyranny.
You're just imposing an expectation for silence on a different group of people, that's all.
I fully believe that those who have negative things to say about groups of people should be able to express their thoughts. People in those groups (or others who have a reaction to it) should have the same freedom to express their thoughts about those statements.
If a man wants to talk to me in a certain way, he should have every right to do so. Why would someone who also believes that think that I should stifle anything I wish to express in return because he doesn't like being called sexist?
no, my argument is that these affected groups want free speech, but if you dare and try and challenge anything they say, they then shut you down....
see Berkeley as the most recent example...
No one has done that here, and yet people have complained that the reaction is PC and therefore bad.
janejellyroll is precisely right -- part of free speech/the exchange of ideas is accepting that people may have negative reactions to your ideas and express their own contrary ideas.
This is actually why the idea that no one should disagree about nutrition stuff, because disagreement = negative is so terrible.7 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »mom2kateRH wrote: »WJS_jeepster wrote: »My unpopular opinion is that there is no way we all need to be drinking all this water. I see multiple people bring in their water bottles for a 45 MINUTE church service. Seriously? I know some people may have medical conditions or dry mouth or whatever, but your average person can't make it 45 minutes without their water?? It's like a weird status thing.
I totally agree with this! I remember going to a lecture on urinary incontinence in women, and the lecturer said at one point, "sometimes, it just boils down to a woman just drinking too much water! I mean, the recommendation for eight 8 oz glasses of water a day was pulled out of thin air!"
Yes, I think if you are thirsty water is the best thing to drink, yes, if you are going on a run in hot weather, hydrate. but you do not need to drink to the point your urine has no yellow in it at all, and feeling thirsty is not a sign you are way too dehydrated and it's too late (which is what I was told many years ago when I first started running).
anyway, sorry if this post is a distraction!
It's not.
I'm actually even more grouchy about the water thing -- I think that people obsessing about drinking water and counting water has nothing to do with weight loss and thinking that it does is, well, woo. (In other words, it is too good to be true to claim that just drinking more water will cause weight loss.) ;-)
I used to see people competing here to see who could drink the most water or getting congrats for drinking 25 cups or whatever the measure is, and I found it puzzling. I never track water (I always drink lots, always have, since I like water and like to have a beverage by me at all times and dislike eating without also having some water), but used to mark my water as complete just because otherwise nice well-meaning people would assume I wasn't drinking and feel compelled to give me advice that I should.
I'm a big grouch in general, though. Probably too much water! ;-)
Same thoughts. The new water bottle that lights up and "reminds" you to drink, is just ridiculous to me. But kudos to those people for creating it as they are likely laughing their way to the bank right now.2 -
She had a really different middle school experience from me XD15 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »born_of_fire74 wrote: »Mansplaining isn't a thing. Just because a man can't experience something personally, doesn't mean he doesn't know anything about it.
... And before you say 'I' am mansplaining, if you are still deludedly adament that I am, the same can in turn be applied to women. You don't know what men are experiencing, so don't 'womansplain'... Oh wait, does that sound ridiculous?
If mansplaining is not a thing, why do I have men at my parts counter (incorrectly) telling me how their car works when I'm a certified automotive technician and automotive parts person with over 17 years of experience in the industry? If illakso domansplaining is not a thing, why do I have men at my parts counter arguing with me when they have come to the dealership to tap my knowledge and experience? (Like the tardball I just got off the phone with insisting that a wire is run directly from the battery to his 7-pin hitch connector only moments ago). If mansplaining is not a thing, why are there men at my parts counter who do not believe me when I tell them something but have no trouble believing any one of the men I work with when they say the exact same thing as I just did?
How about you GTFOH with your "mansplaining is not a thing" garbage?
I would 'awesome' and 'insightful' this times six if I could.
Nice guys: Pay attention around you. There are men (a.k.a. arrogant jerks) around you who do this to woman experts who would not do it to you, even if you're an innocent amateur. Some of them will also do it to other men they implicitly perceive as down-status: Men of color, men who are not native born or for whom their (fluent, yet accented) English is not their first language, even men with certain regional accents in some cases. (P.S. This is why I don't use the term "mansplaining" other than in extreme jest: It's really about implicitly perceived general power, knowedge, dominance. Gender is just one case.)
You're a Good Guy. Don't concede to facile assumptions that others are nice like you. Notice. Counter.
The problem with this is that by using such a prejudicial term you have lumped all men - good and bad together, so we now hang based on the lowest common denominator.
This doesn't further the discussion or resolve the issue. Call out the individual for bad behavior.
Just to be clear: I explicitly distanced myself from the "prejudicial term" - assuming you mean "mansplaining". I explained that I think that some men, i.e. a certain subset who are arrogant jerks, do pretty much the same thing to other men they perceive as down-status from them.
I'd equally agree that certain women who are arrogant jerks do the same thing to both men and women they perceive as down-status, but (1) that wasn't what we were discussing, and (2) I think it's somewhat less common a scenario.
This is about as close to calling out individuals as one can get in a broad discussion, I think. I've called individual people out for it in real life - for talking down to others in an arrogant way, based on (frankly) prejudiced assumptions they were making (i.e., not for "mansplaining").
I've asked that decent men who don't treat women in the ways described up-thread please just notice that this stuff actually happens (and, by implication, believe the women who say it does). It's frequent, it's routine. It's because of some people's (some men's) perceptions about women. It's about gender, in these specific cases.
I spent 30 years in IT, starting when there weren't many women. It's happened to me, and the few women around me in that work setting, over, and over, and over -
men talking to less-expert men when I was the expert; men trying to make deals with men whose manager I was when I was present; etc. I'm not someone who sees sexism behind every shrub, whether it's present or not.
It's a thing, whether you have a special prejudicial word for it or not.
Why is this so hard to believe?
Is anyone refusing to believe that *kitten* inhabit the world? This is strawman construction. If we must down this road, then yes I've been wronged by men and women, but I focused ill thoughts to that individual and did not prosecute an entire gender based on the actions of a bad actor.
It happens to anyone entering a gender dominated field. Weak minds are easily threatened by competition. Male nurses, female engineers, etc. What is the end goal of this?
Simply call out bad behavior. I am no more responsible for the actions of a bad acting male than you are a bad acting female.
Hard to believe anyone is actually wasting time defending a prejudicial term.
the end goal is that we all have to acknowledge every groups grievance no matter how ridiculous in the name of the all knowing god of political correctness. Honestly, this is just another way to divide people into groups and then pit them against each other.
Exactly - Political correctness has been and always will be tyranny disguised as manners. Very attractive at first when you are a member of the deemed victimized demographic, but this is fleeting once you have served your purpose and those in power have moved on to the next divide and conquer tactic.
Agreed - it basically starts off as "free speech" and then turns to fascism/tyranny because other people then cannot say anything critical of the affected group, because they are then immediately branded as racist, bigoted, sexist, etc, etc...
If the argument is that people can't say anything critical because they don't like what people *might* say back to them, that's not a very robust argument for how political correctness is tyranny.
You're just imposing an expectation for silence on a different group of people, that's all.
I fully believe that those who have negative things to say about groups of people should be able to express their thoughts. People in those groups (or others who have a reaction to it) should have the same freedom to express their thoughts about those statements.
If a man wants to talk to me in a certain way, he should have every right to do so. Why would someone who also believes that think that I should stifle anything I wish to express in return because he doesn't like being called sexist?
no, my argument is that these affected groups want free speech, but if you dare and try and challenge anything they say, they then shut you down....
see Berkeley as the most recent example...
No one has done that here, and yet people have complained that the reaction is PC and therefore bad.
janejellyroll is precisely right -- part of free speech/the exchange of ideas is accepting that people may have negative reactions to your ideas and express their own contrary ideas.
This is actually why the idea that no one should disagree about nutrition stuff, because disagreement = negative is so terrible.
Exactly. No attempt has been made here to shut down speech or deny someone a platform to express their views (that I recall). Yet political correctness still came up. If it's okay to express certain thoughts, why is it PC and therefore bad, for other thoughts to be expressed in response?
It's a judgment of the content of the second group of thoughts, I think, and that seems as politically correct as anything else.8 -
Um, everyone TIMEOUT ... can we take a second to notice the new icon?! WOO! How fantastic! Thanks fitnesspal!!!16
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lemurcat12 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »born_of_fire74 wrote: »Mansplaining isn't a thing. Just because a man can't experience something personally, doesn't mean he doesn't know anything about it.
... And before you say 'I' am mansplaining, if you are still deludedly adament that I am, the same can in turn be applied to women. You don't know what men are experiencing, so don't 'womansplain'... Oh wait, does that sound ridiculous?
If mansplaining is not a thing, why do I have men at my parts counter (incorrectly) telling me how their car works when I'm a certified automotive technician and automotive parts person with over 17 years of experience in the industry? If illakso domansplaining is not a thing, why do I have men at my parts counter arguing with me when they have come to the dealership to tap my knowledge and experience? (Like the tardball I just got off the phone with insisting that a wire is run directly from the battery to his 7-pin hitch connector only moments ago). If mansplaining is not a thing, why are there men at my parts counter who do not believe me when I tell them something but have no trouble believing any one of the men I work with when they say the exact same thing as I just did?
How about you GTFOH with your "mansplaining is not a thing" garbage?
I would 'awesome' and 'insightful' this times six if I could.
Nice guys: Pay attention around you. There are men (a.k.a. arrogant jerks) around you who do this to woman experts who would not do it to you, even if you're an innocent amateur. Some of them will also do it to other men they implicitly perceive as down-status: Men of color, men who are not native born or for whom their (fluent, yet accented) English is not their first language, even men with certain regional accents in some cases. (P.S. This is why I don't use the term "mansplaining" other than in extreme jest: It's really about implicitly perceived general power, knowedge, dominance. Gender is just one case.)
You're a Good Guy. Don't concede to facile assumptions that others are nice like you. Notice. Counter.
The problem with this is that by using such a prejudicial term you have lumped all men - good and bad together, so we now hang based on the lowest common denominator.
This doesn't further the discussion or resolve the issue. Call out the individual for bad behavior.
Just to be clear: I explicitly distanced myself from the "prejudicial term" - assuming you mean "mansplaining". I explained that I think that some men, i.e. a certain subset who are arrogant jerks, do pretty much the same thing to other men they perceive as down-status from them.
I'd equally agree that certain women who are arrogant jerks do the same thing to both men and women they perceive as down-status, but (1) that wasn't what we were discussing, and (2) I think it's somewhat less common a scenario.
This is about as close to calling out individuals as one can get in a broad discussion, I think. I've called individual people out for it in real life - for talking down to others in an arrogant way, based on (frankly) prejudiced assumptions they were making (i.e., not for "mansplaining").
I've asked that decent men who don't treat women in the ways described up-thread please just notice that this stuff actually happens (and, by implication, believe the women who say it does). It's frequent, it's routine. It's because of some people's (some men's) perceptions about women. It's about gender, in these specific cases.
I spent 30 years in IT, starting when there weren't many women. It's happened to me, and the few women around me in that work setting, over, and over, and over -
men talking to less-expert men when I was the expert; men trying to make deals with men whose manager I was when I was present; etc. I'm not someone who sees sexism behind every shrub, whether it's present or not.
It's a thing, whether you have a special prejudicial word for it or not.
Why is this so hard to believe?
Is anyone refusing to believe that *kitten* inhabit the world? This is strawman construction. If we must down this road, then yes I've been wronged by men and women, but I focused ill thoughts to that individual and did not prosecute an entire gender based on the actions of a bad actor.
It happens to anyone entering a gender dominated field. Weak minds are easily threatened by competition. Male nurses, female engineers, etc. What is the end goal of this?
Simply call out bad behavior. I am no more responsible for the actions of a bad acting male than you are a bad acting female.
Hard to believe anyone is actually wasting time defending a prejudicial term.
the end goal is that we all have to acknowledge every groups grievance no matter how ridiculous in the name of the all knowing god of political correctness. Honestly, this is just another way to divide people into groups and then pit them against each other.
Exactly - Political correctness has been and always will be tyranny disguised as manners. Very attractive at first when you are a member of the deemed victimized demographic, but this is fleeting once you have served your purpose and those in power have moved on to the next divide and conquer tactic.
Agreed - it basically starts off as "free speech" and then turns to fascism/tyranny because other people then cannot say anything critical of the affected group, because they are then immediately branded as racist, bigoted, sexist, etc, etc...
If the argument is that people can't say anything critical because they don't like what people *might* say back to them, that's not a very robust argument for how political correctness is tyranny.
You're just imposing an expectation for silence on a different group of people, that's all.
I fully believe that those who have negative things to say about groups of people should be able to express their thoughts. People in those groups (or others who have a reaction to it) should have the same freedom to express their thoughts about those statements.
If a man wants to talk to me in a certain way, he should have every right to do so. Why would someone who also believes that think that I should stifle anything I wish to express in return because he doesn't like being called sexist?
no, my argument is that these affected groups want free speech, but if you dare and try and challenge anything they say, they then shut you down....
see Berkeley as the most recent example...
No one has done that here, and yet people have complained that the reaction is PC and therefore bad.
janejellyroll is precisely right -- part of free speech/the exchange of ideas is accepting that people may have negative reactions to your ideas and express their own contrary ideas.
This is actually why the idea that no one should disagree about nutrition stuff, because disagreement = negative is so terrible.
i never said anyone did that here...
Yes, that is part of free speech, and the other side of is that people may say things about you that you don't like; however, it does not make one a racist, bigot, etc, etc...
1 -
clicketykeys wrote: »
She had a really different middle school experience from me XD
Seriously - it was soul-crushing at best.
4 -
janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »born_of_fire74 wrote: »Mansplaining isn't a thing. Just because a man can't experience something personally, doesn't mean he doesn't know anything about it.
... And before you say 'I' am mansplaining, if you are still deludedly adament that I am, the same can in turn be applied to women. You don't know what men are experiencing, so don't 'womansplain'... Oh wait, does that sound ridiculous?
If mansplaining is not a thing, why do I have men at my parts counter (incorrectly) telling me how their car works when I'm a certified automotive technician and automotive parts person with over 17 years of experience in the industry? If illakso domansplaining is not a thing, why do I have men at my parts counter arguing with me when they have come to the dealership to tap my knowledge and experience? (Like the tardball I just got off the phone with insisting that a wire is run directly from the battery to his 7-pin hitch connector only moments ago). If mansplaining is not a thing, why are there men at my parts counter who do not believe me when I tell them something but have no trouble believing any one of the men I work with when they say the exact same thing as I just did?
How about you GTFOH with your "mansplaining is not a thing" garbage?
I would 'awesome' and 'insightful' this times six if I could.
Nice guys: Pay attention around you. There are men (a.k.a. arrogant jerks) around you who do this to woman experts who would not do it to you, even if you're an innocent amateur. Some of them will also do it to other men they implicitly perceive as down-status: Men of color, men who are not native born or for whom their (fluent, yet accented) English is not their first language, even men with certain regional accents in some cases. (P.S. This is why I don't use the term "mansplaining" other than in extreme jest: It's really about implicitly perceived general power, knowedge, dominance. Gender is just one case.)
You're a Good Guy. Don't concede to facile assumptions that others are nice like you. Notice. Counter.
The problem with this is that by using such a prejudicial term you have lumped all men - good and bad together, so we now hang based on the lowest common denominator.
This doesn't further the discussion or resolve the issue. Call out the individual for bad behavior.
Just to be clear: I explicitly distanced myself from the "prejudicial term" - assuming you mean "mansplaining". I explained that I think that some men, i.e. a certain subset who are arrogant jerks, do pretty much the same thing to other men they perceive as down-status from them.
I'd equally agree that certain women who are arrogant jerks do the same thing to both men and women they perceive as down-status, but (1) that wasn't what we were discussing, and (2) I think it's somewhat less common a scenario.
This is about as close to calling out individuals as one can get in a broad discussion, I think. I've called individual people out for it in real life - for talking down to others in an arrogant way, based on (frankly) prejudiced assumptions they were making (i.e., not for "mansplaining").
I've asked that decent men who don't treat women in the ways described up-thread please just notice that this stuff actually happens (and, by implication, believe the women who say it does). It's frequent, it's routine. It's because of some people's (some men's) perceptions about women. It's about gender, in these specific cases.
I spent 30 years in IT, starting when there weren't many women. It's happened to me, and the few women around me in that work setting, over, and over, and over -
men talking to less-expert men when I was the expert; men trying to make deals with men whose manager I was when I was present; etc. I'm not someone who sees sexism behind every shrub, whether it's present or not.
It's a thing, whether you have a special prejudicial word for it or not.
Why is this so hard to believe?
Is anyone refusing to believe that *kitten* inhabit the world? This is strawman construction. If we must down this road, then yes I've been wronged by men and women, but I focused ill thoughts to that individual and did not prosecute an entire gender based on the actions of a bad actor.
It happens to anyone entering a gender dominated field. Weak minds are easily threatened by competition. Male nurses, female engineers, etc. What is the end goal of this?
Simply call out bad behavior. I am no more responsible for the actions of a bad acting male than you are a bad acting female.
Hard to believe anyone is actually wasting time defending a prejudicial term.
the end goal is that we all have to acknowledge every groups grievance no matter how ridiculous in the name of the all knowing god of political correctness. Honestly, this is just another way to divide people into groups and then pit them against each other.
Exactly - Political correctness has been and always will be tyranny disguised as manners. Very attractive at first when you are a member of the deemed victimized demographic, but this is fleeting once you have served your purpose and those in power have moved on to the next divide and conquer tactic.
Agreed - it basically starts off as "free speech" and then turns to fascism/tyranny because other people then cannot say anything critical of the affected group, because they are then immediately branded as racist, bigoted, sexist, etc, etc...
If the argument is that people can't say anything critical because they don't like what people *might* say back to them, that's not a very robust argument for how political correctness is tyranny.
You're just imposing an expectation for silence on a different group of people, that's all.
I fully believe that those who have negative things to say about groups of people should be able to express their thoughts. People in those groups (or others who have a reaction to it) should have the same freedom to express their thoughts about those statements.
If a man wants to talk to me in a certain way, he should have every right to do so. Why would someone who also believes that think that I should stifle anything I wish to express in return because he doesn't like being called sexist?
no, my argument is that these affected groups want free speech, but if you dare and try and challenge anything they say, they then shut you down....
see Berkeley as the most recent example...
I wasn't thinking of Berkeley because what you wrote was "Other people then cannot say anything critical of the affected group, because they are then immediately branded as racist, bigoted, sexist, etc."
If you're talking about not being able to speak at a university, that seems to be a separate topic. What I was responding to was the claim that a negative verbal/written reaction to one's words somehow represents tyranny.
In a society with free speech, it seems to me that it goes both ways. Sometimes when you say something someone doesn't appreciate, they will exercise their free speech in response. Setting aside the separate, contentious, issue of protests and counter-protests at universities, do you object to people responding to a negative or critical statement made about a group with a written or verbal critique?
I guess we are getting way off base here, but I was commenting in a general sense.
what I am saying is that when one group wants free speech, but then attempts to shut someone else down because they don't like THEIR speech, that is tyranny.7 -
janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »born_of_fire74 wrote: »Mansplaining isn't a thing. Just because a man can't experience something personally, doesn't mean he doesn't know anything about it.
... And before you say 'I' am mansplaining, if you are still deludedly adament that I am, the same can in turn be applied to women. You don't know what men are experiencing, so don't 'womansplain'... Oh wait, does that sound ridiculous?
If mansplaining is not a thing, why do I have men at my parts counter (incorrectly) telling me how their car works when I'm a certified automotive technician and automotive parts person with over 17 years of experience in the industry? If illakso domansplaining is not a thing, why do I have men at my parts counter arguing with me when they have come to the dealership to tap my knowledge and experience? (Like the tardball I just got off the phone with insisting that a wire is run directly from the battery to his 7-pin hitch connector only moments ago). If mansplaining is not a thing, why are there men at my parts counter who do not believe me when I tell them something but have no trouble believing any one of the men I work with when they say the exact same thing as I just did?
How about you GTFOH with your "mansplaining is not a thing" garbage?
I would 'awesome' and 'insightful' this times six if I could.
Nice guys: Pay attention around you. There are men (a.k.a. arrogant jerks) around you who do this to woman experts who would not do it to you, even if you're an innocent amateur. Some of them will also do it to other men they implicitly perceive as down-status: Men of color, men who are not native born or for whom their (fluent, yet accented) English is not their first language, even men with certain regional accents in some cases. (P.S. This is why I don't use the term "mansplaining" other than in extreme jest: It's really about implicitly perceived general power, knowedge, dominance. Gender is just one case.)
You're a Good Guy. Don't concede to facile assumptions that others are nice like you. Notice. Counter.
The problem with this is that by using such a prejudicial term you have lumped all men - good and bad together, so we now hang based on the lowest common denominator.
This doesn't further the discussion or resolve the issue. Call out the individual for bad behavior.
Just to be clear: I explicitly distanced myself from the "prejudicial term" - assuming you mean "mansplaining". I explained that I think that some men, i.e. a certain subset who are arrogant jerks, do pretty much the same thing to other men they perceive as down-status from them.
I'd equally agree that certain women who are arrogant jerks do the same thing to both men and women they perceive as down-status, but (1) that wasn't what we were discussing, and (2) I think it's somewhat less common a scenario.
This is about as close to calling out individuals as one can get in a broad discussion, I think. I've called individual people out for it in real life - for talking down to others in an arrogant way, based on (frankly) prejudiced assumptions they were making (i.e., not for "mansplaining").
I've asked that decent men who don't treat women in the ways described up-thread please just notice that this stuff actually happens (and, by implication, believe the women who say it does). It's frequent, it's routine. It's because of some people's (some men's) perceptions about women. It's about gender, in these specific cases.
I spent 30 years in IT, starting when there weren't many women. It's happened to me, and the few women around me in that work setting, over, and over, and over -
men talking to less-expert men when I was the expert; men trying to make deals with men whose manager I was when I was present; etc. I'm not someone who sees sexism behind every shrub, whether it's present or not.
It's a thing, whether you have a special prejudicial word for it or not.
Why is this so hard to believe?
Is anyone refusing to believe that *kitten* inhabit the world? This is strawman construction. If we must down this road, then yes I've been wronged by men and women, but I focused ill thoughts to that individual and did not prosecute an entire gender based on the actions of a bad actor.
It happens to anyone entering a gender dominated field. Weak minds are easily threatened by competition. Male nurses, female engineers, etc. What is the end goal of this?
Simply call out bad behavior. I am no more responsible for the actions of a bad acting male than you are a bad acting female.
Hard to believe anyone is actually wasting time defending a prejudicial term.
the end goal is that we all have to acknowledge every groups grievance no matter how ridiculous in the name of the all knowing god of political correctness. Honestly, this is just another way to divide people into groups and then pit them against each other.
Exactly - Political correctness has been and always will be tyranny disguised as manners. Very attractive at first when you are a member of the deemed victimized demographic, but this is fleeting once you have served your purpose and those in power have moved on to the next divide and conquer tactic.
Agreed - it basically starts off as "free speech" and then turns to fascism/tyranny because other people then cannot say anything critical of the affected group, because they are then immediately branded as racist, bigoted, sexist, etc, etc...
If the argument is that people can't say anything critical because they don't like what people *might* say back to them, that's not a very robust argument for how political correctness is tyranny.
You're just imposing an expectation for silence on a different group of people, that's all.
I fully believe that those who have negative things to say about groups of people should be able to express their thoughts. People in those groups (or others who have a reaction to it) should have the same freedom to express their thoughts about those statements.
If a man wants to talk to me in a certain way, he should have every right to do so. Why would someone who also believes that think that I should stifle anything I wish to express in return because he doesn't like being called sexist?
no, my argument is that these affected groups want free speech, but if you dare and try and challenge anything they say, they then shut you down....
see Berkeley as the most recent example...
I wasn't thinking of Berkeley because what you wrote was "Other people then cannot say anything critical of the affected group, because they are then immediately branded as racist, bigoted, sexist, etc."
If you're talking about not being able to speak at a university, that seems to be a separate topic. What I was responding to was the claim that a negative verbal/written reaction to one's words somehow represents tyranny.
In a society with free speech, it seems to me that it goes both ways. Sometimes when you say something someone doesn't appreciate, they will exercise their free speech in response. Setting aside the separate, contentious, issue of protests and counter-protests at universities, do you object to people responding to a negative or critical statement made about a group with a written or verbal critique?
This is the beauty and peril inherent with the freedom of speech. You are certainly able to exercise your freedom and the government is forced by law to ensure that this occurs, but if your words are not received well then you may suffer consequences.
The difference in political correctness is that speech/thought differing from those in power is silenced, shouted down, responded to with physical violence.5 -
janejellyroll wrote: »born_of_fire74 wrote: »Mansplaining isn't a thing. Just because a man can't experience something personally, doesn't mean he doesn't know anything about it.
... And before you say 'I' am mansplaining, if you are still deludedly adament that I am, the same can in turn be applied to women. You don't know what men are experiencing, so don't 'womansplain'... Oh wait, does that sound ridiculous?
If mansplaining is not a thing, why do I have men at my parts counter (incorrectly) telling me how their car works when I'm a certified automotive technician and automotive parts person with over 17 years of experience in the industry? If illakso domansplaining is not a thing, why do I have men at my parts counter arguing with me when they have come to the dealership to tap my knowledge and experience? (Like the tardball I just got off the phone with insisting that a wire is run directly from the battery to his 7-pin hitch connector only moments ago). If mansplaining is not a thing, why are there men at my parts counter who do not believe me when I tell them something but have no trouble believing any one of the men I work with when they say the exact same thing as I just did?
How about you GTFOH with your "mansplaining is not a thing" garbage?
I would 'awesome' and 'insightful' this times six if I could.
Nice guys: Pay attention around you. There are men (a.k.a. arrogant jerks) around you who do this to woman experts who would not do it to you, even if you're an innocent amateur. Some of them will also do it to other men they implicitly perceive as down-status: Men of color, men who are not native born or for whom their (fluent, yet accented) English is not their first language, even men with certain regional accents in some cases. (P.S. This is why I don't use the term "mansplaining" other than in extreme jest: It's really about implicitly perceived general power, knowedge, dominance. Gender is just one case.)
You're a Good Guy. Don't concede to facile assumptions that others are nice like you. Notice. Counter.
The problem with this is that by using such a prejudicial term you have lumped all men - good and bad together, so we now hang based on the lowest common denominator.
This doesn't further the discussion or resolve the issue. Call out the individual for bad behavior.
Just to be clear: I explicitly distanced myself from the "prejudicial term" - assuming you mean "mansplaining". I explained that I think that some men, i.e. a certain subset who are arrogant jerks, do pretty much the same thing to other men they perceive as down-status from them.
I'd equally agree that certain women who are arrogant jerks do the same thing to both men and women they perceive as down-status, but (1) that wasn't what we were discussing, and (2) I think it's somewhat less common a scenario.
This is about as close to calling out individuals as one can get in a broad discussion, I think. I've called individual people out for it in real life - for talking down to others in an arrogant way, based on (frankly) prejudiced assumptions they were making (i.e., not for "mansplaining").
I've asked that decent men who don't treat women in the ways described up-thread please just notice that this stuff actually happens (and, by implication, believe the women who say it does). It's frequent, it's routine. It's because of some people's (some men's) perceptions about women. It's about gender, in these specific cases.
I spent 30 years in IT, starting when there weren't many women. It's happened to me, and the few women around me in that work setting, over, and over, and over -
men talking to less-expert men when I was the expert; men trying to make deals with men whose manager I was when I was present; etc. I'm not someone who sees sexism behind every shrub, whether it's present or not.
It's a thing, whether you have a special prejudicial word for it or not.
Why is this so hard to believe?
Is anyone refusing to believe that *kitten* inhabit the world? This is strawman construction. If we must down this road, then yes I've been wronged by men and women, but I focused ill thoughts to that individual and did not prosecute an entire gender based on the actions of a bad actor.
It happens to anyone entering a gender dominated field. Weak minds are easily threatened by competition. Male nurses, female engineers, etc. What is the end goal of this?
Simply call out bad behavior. I am no more responsible for the actions of a bad acting male than you are a bad acting female.
Hard to believe anyone is actually wasting time defending a prejudicial term.
the end goal is that we all have to acknowledge every groups grievance no matter how ridiculous in the name of the all knowing god of political correctness. Honestly, this is just another way to divide people into groups and then pit them against each other.
Exactly - Political correctness has been and always will be tyranny disguised as manners. Very attractive at first when you are a member of the deemed victimized demographic, but this is fleeting once you have served your purpose and those in power have moved on to the next divide and conquer tactic.
Agreed - it basically starts off as "free speech" and then turns to fascism/tyranny because other people then cannot say anything critical of the affected group, because they are then immediately branded as racist, bigoted, sexist, etc, etc...
If the argument is that people can't say anything critical because they don't like what people *might* say back to them, that's not a very robust argument for how political correctness is tyranny.
You're just imposing an expectation for silence on a different group of people, that's all.
I fully believe that those who have negative things to say about groups of people should be able to express their thoughts. People in those groups (or others who have a reaction to it) should have the same freedom to express their thoughts about those statements.
If a man wants to talk to me in a certain way, he should have every right to do so. Why would someone who also believes that think that I should stifle anything I wish to express in return because he doesn't like being called sexist?
no, my argument is that these affected groups want free speech, but if you dare and try and challenge anything they say, they then shut you down....
see Berkeley as the most recent example...
This is capitalism, not censorship. Free speech, as it exists in the US, means that the government cannot prosecute you for saying what you want - and there are even limits to that. It does NOT mean that anyone is obliged to offer you use of their forum, or to listen to what you have to say. If Youtube deletes a channel from their website/app, that's their business decision because it's their site. I don't have any particular *right* to post here; I don't own this website, and even if I did, the service provider also shares an interest in what's published using their service.7 -
This whole argument ties into my belief that there are two kinds of people in the world. Victims and Just-Get-On-With-It types.
We see it all the time on these forums and I know we all see it a hundred times a day IRL too.
The former hangs on to the past (past hurts/past events/past perceived injustices) and the latter looks to the next thing and how they can contribute in a meaningful, helpful way.
You can live in fear or live in faith - pick a side carefully.13 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »born_of_fire74 wrote: »Mansplaining isn't a thing. Just because a man can't experience something personally, doesn't mean he doesn't know anything about it.
... And before you say 'I' am mansplaining, if you are still deludedly adament that I am, the same can in turn be applied to women. You don't know what men are experiencing, so don't 'womansplain'... Oh wait, does that sound ridiculous?
If mansplaining is not a thing, why do I have men at my parts counter (incorrectly) telling me how their car works when I'm a certified automotive technician and automotive parts person with over 17 years of experience in the industry? If illakso domansplaining is not a thing, why do I have men at my parts counter arguing with me when they have come to the dealership to tap my knowledge and experience? (Like the tardball I just got off the phone with insisting that a wire is run directly from the battery to his 7-pin hitch connector only moments ago). If mansplaining is not a thing, why are there men at my parts counter who do not believe me when I tell them something but have no trouble believing any one of the men I work with when they say the exact same thing as I just did?
How about you GTFOH with your "mansplaining is not a thing" garbage?
I would 'awesome' and 'insightful' this times six if I could.
Nice guys: Pay attention around you. There are men (a.k.a. arrogant jerks) around you who do this to woman experts who would not do it to you, even if you're an innocent amateur. Some of them will also do it to other men they implicitly perceive as down-status: Men of color, men who are not native born or for whom their (fluent, yet accented) English is not their first language, even men with certain regional accents in some cases. (P.S. This is why I don't use the term "mansplaining" other than in extreme jest: It's really about implicitly perceived general power, knowedge, dominance. Gender is just one case.)
You're a Good Guy. Don't concede to facile assumptions that others are nice like you. Notice. Counter.
The problem with this is that by using such a prejudicial term you have lumped all men - good and bad together, so we now hang based on the lowest common denominator.
This doesn't further the discussion or resolve the issue. Call out the individual for bad behavior.
Just to be clear: I explicitly distanced myself from the "prejudicial term" - assuming you mean "mansplaining". I explained that I think that some men, i.e. a certain subset who are arrogant jerks, do pretty much the same thing to other men they perceive as down-status from them.
I'd equally agree that certain women who are arrogant jerks do the same thing to both men and women they perceive as down-status, but (1) that wasn't what we were discussing, and (2) I think it's somewhat less common a scenario.
This is about as close to calling out individuals as one can get in a broad discussion, I think. I've called individual people out for it in real life - for talking down to others in an arrogant way, based on (frankly) prejudiced assumptions they were making (i.e., not for "mansplaining").
I've asked that decent men who don't treat women in the ways described up-thread please just notice that this stuff actually happens (and, by implication, believe the women who say it does). It's frequent, it's routine. It's because of some people's (some men's) perceptions about women. It's about gender, in these specific cases.
I spent 30 years in IT, starting when there weren't many women. It's happened to me, and the few women around me in that work setting, over, and over, and over -
men talking to less-expert men when I was the expert; men trying to make deals with men whose manager I was when I was present; etc. I'm not someone who sees sexism behind every shrub, whether it's present or not.
It's a thing, whether you have a special prejudicial word for it or not.
Why is this so hard to believe?
Is anyone refusing to believe that *kitten* inhabit the world? This is strawman construction. If we must down this road, then yes I've been wronged by men and women, but I focused ill thoughts to that individual and did not prosecute an entire gender based on the actions of a bad actor.
It happens to anyone entering a gender dominated field. Weak minds are easily threatened by competition. Male nurses, female engineers, etc. What is the end goal of this?
Simply call out bad behavior. I am no more responsible for the actions of a bad acting male than you are a bad acting female.
Hard to believe anyone is actually wasting time defending a prejudicial term.
the end goal is that we all have to acknowledge every groups grievance no matter how ridiculous in the name of the all knowing god of political correctness. Honestly, this is just another way to divide people into groups and then pit them against each other.
Exactly - Political correctness has been and always will be tyranny disguised as manners. Very attractive at first when you are a member of the deemed victimized demographic, but this is fleeting once you have served your purpose and those in power have moved on to the next divide and conquer tactic.
Agreed - it basically starts off as "free speech" and then turns to fascism/tyranny because other people then cannot say anything critical of the affected group, because they are then immediately branded as racist, bigoted, sexist, etc, etc...
If the argument is that people can't say anything critical because they don't like what people *might* say back to them, that's not a very robust argument for how political correctness is tyranny.
You're just imposing an expectation for silence on a different group of people, that's all.
I fully believe that those who have negative things to say about groups of people should be able to express their thoughts. People in those groups (or others who have a reaction to it) should have the same freedom to express their thoughts about those statements.
If a man wants to talk to me in a certain way, he should have every right to do so. Why would someone who also believes that think that I should stifle anything I wish to express in return because he doesn't like being called sexist?
no, my argument is that these affected groups want free speech, but if you dare and try and challenge anything they say, they then shut you down....
see Berkeley as the most recent example...
No one has done that here, and yet people have complained that the reaction is PC and therefore bad.
janejellyroll is precisely right -- part of free speech/the exchange of ideas is accepting that people may have negative reactions to your ideas and express their own contrary ideas.
This is actually why the idea that no one should disagree about nutrition stuff, because disagreement = negative is so terrible.
i never said anyone did that here...
Yes, that is part of free speech, and the other side of is that people may say things about you that you don't like; however, it does not make one a racist, bigot, etc, etc...
A person might be those things or might not. I'll use xe for convenience.
xe was mean to me. It's because I'm different from xer in this irrelevant characteristic. all xen are jerks.
Some xen are jerks, some are racist, some are bigots.
Extrapolating from the specific to the general case, because some people who share an irrelevant characteristic complain about xen being jerks more often than people who share a different irrelevant characteristic... doesn't mean that the first group experiences more jerkiness... merely that they speak of it more often.
Further, when I suggested the possibility that a different Irrelevant characteristic might be the cause of a particular behavior.
I was accused of being a bigot.2 -
clicketykeys wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »born_of_fire74 wrote: »Mansplaining isn't a thing. Just because a man can't experience something personally, doesn't mean he doesn't know anything about it.
... And before you say 'I' am mansplaining, if you are still deludedly adament that I am, the same can in turn be applied to women. You don't know what men are experiencing, so don't 'womansplain'... Oh wait, does that sound ridiculous?
If mansplaining is not a thing, why do I have men at my parts counter (incorrectly) telling me how their car works when I'm a certified automotive technician and automotive parts person with over 17 years of experience in the industry? If illakso domansplaining is not a thing, why do I have men at my parts counter arguing with me when they have come to the dealership to tap my knowledge and experience? (Like the tardball I just got off the phone with insisting that a wire is run directly from the battery to his 7-pin hitch connector only moments ago). If mansplaining is not a thing, why are there men at my parts counter who do not believe me when I tell them something but have no trouble believing any one of the men I work with when they say the exact same thing as I just did?
How about you GTFOH with your "mansplaining is not a thing" garbage?
I would 'awesome' and 'insightful' this times six if I could.
Nice guys: Pay attention around you. There are men (a.k.a. arrogant jerks) around you who do this to woman experts who would not do it to you, even if you're an innocent amateur. Some of them will also do it to other men they implicitly perceive as down-status: Men of color, men who are not native born or for whom their (fluent, yet accented) English is not their first language, even men with certain regional accents in some cases. (P.S. This is why I don't use the term "mansplaining" other than in extreme jest: It's really about implicitly perceived general power, knowedge, dominance. Gender is just one case.)
You're a Good Guy. Don't concede to facile assumptions that others are nice like you. Notice. Counter.
The problem with this is that by using such a prejudicial term you have lumped all men - good and bad together, so we now hang based on the lowest common denominator.
This doesn't further the discussion or resolve the issue. Call out the individual for bad behavior.
Just to be clear: I explicitly distanced myself from the "prejudicial term" - assuming you mean "mansplaining". I explained that I think that some men, i.e. a certain subset who are arrogant jerks, do pretty much the same thing to other men they perceive as down-status from them.
I'd equally agree that certain women who are arrogant jerks do the same thing to both men and women they perceive as down-status, but (1) that wasn't what we were discussing, and (2) I think it's somewhat less common a scenario.
This is about as close to calling out individuals as one can get in a broad discussion, I think. I've called individual people out for it in real life - for talking down to others in an arrogant way, based on (frankly) prejudiced assumptions they were making (i.e., not for "mansplaining").
I've asked that decent men who don't treat women in the ways described up-thread please just notice that this stuff actually happens (and, by implication, believe the women who say it does). It's frequent, it's routine. It's because of some people's (some men's) perceptions about women. It's about gender, in these specific cases.
I spent 30 years in IT, starting when there weren't many women. It's happened to me, and the few women around me in that work setting, over, and over, and over -
men talking to less-expert men when I was the expert; men trying to make deals with men whose manager I was when I was present; etc. I'm not someone who sees sexism behind every shrub, whether it's present or not.
It's a thing, whether you have a special prejudicial word for it or not.
Why is this so hard to believe?
Is anyone refusing to believe that *kitten* inhabit the world? This is strawman construction. If we must down this road, then yes I've been wronged by men and women, but I focused ill thoughts to that individual and did not prosecute an entire gender based on the actions of a bad actor.
It happens to anyone entering a gender dominated field. Weak minds are easily threatened by competition. Male nurses, female engineers, etc. What is the end goal of this?
Simply call out bad behavior. I am no more responsible for the actions of a bad acting male than you are a bad acting female.
Hard to believe anyone is actually wasting time defending a prejudicial term.
the end goal is that we all have to acknowledge every groups grievance no matter how ridiculous in the name of the all knowing god of political correctness. Honestly, this is just another way to divide people into groups and then pit them against each other.
Exactly - Political correctness has been and always will be tyranny disguised as manners. Very attractive at first when you are a member of the deemed victimized demographic, but this is fleeting once you have served your purpose and those in power have moved on to the next divide and conquer tactic.
Agreed - it basically starts off as "free speech" and then turns to fascism/tyranny because other people then cannot say anything critical of the affected group, because they are then immediately branded as racist, bigoted, sexist, etc, etc...
If the argument is that people can't say anything critical because they don't like what people *might* say back to them, that's not a very robust argument for how political correctness is tyranny.
You're just imposing an expectation for silence on a different group of people, that's all.
I fully believe that those who have negative things to say about groups of people should be able to express their thoughts. People in those groups (or others who have a reaction to it) should have the same freedom to express their thoughts about those statements.
If a man wants to talk to me in a certain way, he should have every right to do so. Why would someone who also believes that think that I should stifle anything I wish to express in return because he doesn't like being called sexist?
no, my argument is that these affected groups want free speech, but if you dare and try and challenge anything they say, they then shut you down....
see Berkeley as the most recent example...
This is capitalism, not censorship. Free speech, as it exists in the US, means that the government cannot prosecute you for saying what you want - and there are even limits to that. It does NOT mean that anyone is obliged to offer you use of their forum, or to listen to what you have to say. If Youtube deletes a channel from their website/app, that's their business decision because it's their site. I don't have any particular *right* to post here; I don't own this website, and even if I did, the service provider also shares an interest in what's published using their service.
not sure what your argument is..I am not talking about websites..I am talking about groups of people that want to shut down speech they feel is unpopular.
yes, if I have a website and I set terms and conditions then I can limit what people say on said website. I don't think anyone is arguing against that...0 -
clicketykeys wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »born_of_fire74 wrote: »Mansplaining isn't a thing. Just because a man can't experience something personally, doesn't mean he doesn't know anything about it.
... And before you say 'I' am mansplaining, if you are still deludedly adament that I am, the same can in turn be applied to women. You don't know what men are experiencing, so don't 'womansplain'... Oh wait, does that sound ridiculous?
If mansplaining is not a thing, why do I have men at my parts counter (incorrectly) telling me how their car works when I'm a certified automotive technician and automotive parts person with over 17 years of experience in the industry? If illakso domansplaining is not a thing, why do I have men at my parts counter arguing with me when they have come to the dealership to tap my knowledge and experience? (Like the tardball I just got off the phone with insisting that a wire is run directly from the battery to his 7-pin hitch connector only moments ago). If mansplaining is not a thing, why are there men at my parts counter who do not believe me when I tell them something but have no trouble believing any one of the men I work with when they say the exact same thing as I just did?
How about you GTFOH with your "mansplaining is not a thing" garbage?
I would 'awesome' and 'insightful' this times six if I could.
Nice guys: Pay attention around you. There are men (a.k.a. arrogant jerks) around you who do this to woman experts who would not do it to you, even if you're an innocent amateur. Some of them will also do it to other men they implicitly perceive as down-status: Men of color, men who are not native born or for whom their (fluent, yet accented) English is not their first language, even men with certain regional accents in some cases. (P.S. This is why I don't use the term "mansplaining" other than in extreme jest: It's really about implicitly perceived general power, knowedge, dominance. Gender is just one case.)
You're a Good Guy. Don't concede to facile assumptions that others are nice like you. Notice. Counter.
The problem with this is that by using such a prejudicial term you have lumped all men - good and bad together, so we now hang based on the lowest common denominator.
This doesn't further the discussion or resolve the issue. Call out the individual for bad behavior.
Just to be clear: I explicitly distanced myself from the "prejudicial term" - assuming you mean "mansplaining". I explained that I think that some men, i.e. a certain subset who are arrogant jerks, do pretty much the same thing to other men they perceive as down-status from them.
I'd equally agree that certain women who are arrogant jerks do the same thing to both men and women they perceive as down-status, but (1) that wasn't what we were discussing, and (2) I think it's somewhat less common a scenario.
This is about as close to calling out individuals as one can get in a broad discussion, I think. I've called individual people out for it in real life - for talking down to others in an arrogant way, based on (frankly) prejudiced assumptions they were making (i.e., not for "mansplaining").
I've asked that decent men who don't treat women in the ways described up-thread please just notice that this stuff actually happens (and, by implication, believe the women who say it does). It's frequent, it's routine. It's because of some people's (some men's) perceptions about women. It's about gender, in these specific cases.
I spent 30 years in IT, starting when there weren't many women. It's happened to me, and the few women around me in that work setting, over, and over, and over -
men talking to less-expert men when I was the expert; men trying to make deals with men whose manager I was when I was present; etc. I'm not someone who sees sexism behind every shrub, whether it's present or not.
It's a thing, whether you have a special prejudicial word for it or not.
Why is this so hard to believe?
Is anyone refusing to believe that *kitten* inhabit the world? This is strawman construction. If we must down this road, then yes I've been wronged by men and women, but I focused ill thoughts to that individual and did not prosecute an entire gender based on the actions of a bad actor.
It happens to anyone entering a gender dominated field. Weak minds are easily threatened by competition. Male nurses, female engineers, etc. What is the end goal of this?
Simply call out bad behavior. I am no more responsible for the actions of a bad acting male than you are a bad acting female.
Hard to believe anyone is actually wasting time defending a prejudicial term.
the end goal is that we all have to acknowledge every groups grievance no matter how ridiculous in the name of the all knowing god of political correctness. Honestly, this is just another way to divide people into groups and then pit them against each other.
Exactly - Political correctness has been and always will be tyranny disguised as manners. Very attractive at first when you are a member of the deemed victimized demographic, but this is fleeting once you have served your purpose and those in power have moved on to the next divide and conquer tactic.
Agreed - it basically starts off as "free speech" and then turns to fascism/tyranny because other people then cannot say anything critical of the affected group, because they are then immediately branded as racist, bigoted, sexist, etc, etc...
If the argument is that people can't say anything critical because they don't like what people *might* say back to them, that's not a very robust argument for how political correctness is tyranny.
You're just imposing an expectation for silence on a different group of people, that's all.
I fully believe that those who have negative things to say about groups of people should be able to express their thoughts. People in those groups (or others who have a reaction to it) should have the same freedom to express their thoughts about those statements.
If a man wants to talk to me in a certain way, he should have every right to do so. Why would someone who also believes that think that I should stifle anything I wish to express in return because he doesn't like being called sexist?
no, my argument is that these affected groups want free speech, but if you dare and try and challenge anything they say, they then shut you down....
see Berkeley as the most recent example...
This is capitalism, not censorship. Free speech, as it exists in the US, means that the government cannot prosecute you for saying what you want - and there are even limits to that. It does NOT mean that anyone is obliged to offer you use of their forum, or to listen to what you have to say. If Youtube deletes a channel from their website/app, that's their business decision because it's their site. I don't have any particular *right* to post here; I don't own this website, and even if I did, the service provider also shares an interest in what's published using their service.
This is true for private enterprise, but a public university receiving government funding is absolutely obliged to offer an equitable forum ensuring that freedom of speech is guaranteed.
4 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »born_of_fire74 wrote: »Mansplaining isn't a thing. Just because a man can't experience something personally, doesn't mean he doesn't know anything about it.
... And before you say 'I' am mansplaining, if you are still deludedly adament that I am, the same can in turn be applied to women. You don't know what men are experiencing, so don't 'womansplain'... Oh wait, does that sound ridiculous?
If mansplaining is not a thing, why do I have men at my parts counter (incorrectly) telling me how their car works when I'm a certified automotive technician and automotive parts person with over 17 years of experience in the industry? If illakso domansplaining is not a thing, why do I have men at my parts counter arguing with me when they have come to the dealership to tap my knowledge and experience? (Like the tardball I just got off the phone with insisting that a wire is run directly from the battery to his 7-pin hitch connector only moments ago). If mansplaining is not a thing, why are there men at my parts counter who do not believe me when I tell them something but have no trouble believing any one of the men I work with when they say the exact same thing as I just did?
How about you GTFOH with your "mansplaining is not a thing" garbage?
I would 'awesome' and 'insightful' this times six if I could.
Nice guys: Pay attention around you. There are men (a.k.a. arrogant jerks) around you who do this to woman experts who would not do it to you, even if you're an innocent amateur. Some of them will also do it to other men they implicitly perceive as down-status: Men of color, men who are not native born or for whom their (fluent, yet accented) English is not their first language, even men with certain regional accents in some cases. (P.S. This is why I don't use the term "mansplaining" other than in extreme jest: It's really about implicitly perceived general power, knowedge, dominance. Gender is just one case.)
You're a Good Guy. Don't concede to facile assumptions that others are nice like you. Notice. Counter.
The problem with this is that by using such a prejudicial term you have lumped all men - good and bad together, so we now hang based on the lowest common denominator.
This doesn't further the discussion or resolve the issue. Call out the individual for bad behavior.
Just to be clear: I explicitly distanced myself from the "prejudicial term" - assuming you mean "mansplaining". I explained that I think that some men, i.e. a certain subset who are arrogant jerks, do pretty much the same thing to other men they perceive as down-status from them.
I'd equally agree that certain women who are arrogant jerks do the same thing to both men and women they perceive as down-status, but (1) that wasn't what we were discussing, and (2) I think it's somewhat less common a scenario.
This is about as close to calling out individuals as one can get in a broad discussion, I think. I've called individual people out for it in real life - for talking down to others in an arrogant way, based on (frankly) prejudiced assumptions they were making (i.e., not for "mansplaining").
I've asked that decent men who don't treat women in the ways described up-thread please just notice that this stuff actually happens (and, by implication, believe the women who say it does). It's frequent, it's routine. It's because of some people's (some men's) perceptions about women. It's about gender, in these specific cases.
I spent 30 years in IT, starting when there weren't many women. It's happened to me, and the few women around me in that work setting, over, and over, and over -
men talking to less-expert men when I was the expert; men trying to make deals with men whose manager I was when I was present; etc. I'm not someone who sees sexism behind every shrub, whether it's present or not.
It's a thing, whether you have a special prejudicial word for it or not.
Why is this so hard to believe?
Is anyone refusing to believe that *kitten* inhabit the world? This is strawman construction. If we must down this road, then yes I've been wronged by men and women, but I focused ill thoughts to that individual and did not prosecute an entire gender based on the actions of a bad actor.
It happens to anyone entering a gender dominated field. Weak minds are easily threatened by competition. Male nurses, female engineers, etc. What is the end goal of this?
Simply call out bad behavior. I am no more responsible for the actions of a bad acting male than you are a bad acting female.
Hard to believe anyone is actually wasting time defending a prejudicial term.
the end goal is that we all have to acknowledge every groups grievance no matter how ridiculous in the name of the all knowing god of political correctness. Honestly, this is just another way to divide people into groups and then pit them against each other.
Exactly - Political correctness has been and always will be tyranny disguised as manners. Very attractive at first when you are a member of the deemed victimized demographic, but this is fleeting once you have served your purpose and those in power have moved on to the next divide and conquer tactic.
Agreed - it basically starts off as "free speech" and then turns to fascism/tyranny because other people then cannot say anything critical of the affected group, because they are then immediately branded as racist, bigoted, sexist, etc, etc...
If the argument is that people can't say anything critical because they don't like what people *might* say back to them, that's not a very robust argument for how political correctness is tyranny.
You're just imposing an expectation for silence on a different group of people, that's all.
I fully believe that those who have negative things to say about groups of people should be able to express their thoughts. People in those groups (or others who have a reaction to it) should have the same freedom to express their thoughts about those statements.
If a man wants to talk to me in a certain way, he should have every right to do so. Why would someone who also believes that think that I should stifle anything I wish to express in return because he doesn't like being called sexist?
no, my argument is that these affected groups want free speech, but if you dare and try and challenge anything they say, they then shut you down....
see Berkeley as the most recent example...
No one has done that here, and yet people have complained that the reaction is PC and therefore bad.
janejellyroll is precisely right -- part of free speech/the exchange of ideas is accepting that people may have negative reactions to your ideas and express their own contrary ideas.
This is actually why the idea that no one should disagree about nutrition stuff, because disagreement = negative is so terrible.
i never said anyone did that here...
Yes, that is part of free speech, and the other side of is that people may say things about you that you don't like; however, it does not make one a racist, bigot, etc, etc...
But if your comments are racist/bigoted/sexist, then expect to be called racist/bigoted/sexist.17 -
Tacklewasher wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »born_of_fire74 wrote: »Mansplaining isn't a thing. Just because a man can't experience something personally, doesn't mean he doesn't know anything about it.
... And before you say 'I' am mansplaining, if you are still deludedly adament that I am, the same can in turn be applied to women. You don't know what men are experiencing, so don't 'womansplain'... Oh wait, does that sound ridiculous?
If mansplaining is not a thing, why do I have men at my parts counter (incorrectly) telling me how their car works when I'm a certified automotive technician and automotive parts person with over 17 years of experience in the industry? If illakso domansplaining is not a thing, why do I have men at my parts counter arguing with me when they have come to the dealership to tap my knowledge and experience? (Like the tardball I just got off the phone with insisting that a wire is run directly from the battery to his 7-pin hitch connector only moments ago). If mansplaining is not a thing, why are there men at my parts counter who do not believe me when I tell them something but have no trouble believing any one of the men I work with when they say the exact same thing as I just did?
How about you GTFOH with your "mansplaining is not a thing" garbage?
I would 'awesome' and 'insightful' this times six if I could.
Nice guys: Pay attention around you. There are men (a.k.a. arrogant jerks) around you who do this to woman experts who would not do it to you, even if you're an innocent amateur. Some of them will also do it to other men they implicitly perceive as down-status: Men of color, men who are not native born or for whom their (fluent, yet accented) English is not their first language, even men with certain regional accents in some cases. (P.S. This is why I don't use the term "mansplaining" other than in extreme jest: It's really about implicitly perceived general power, knowedge, dominance. Gender is just one case.)
You're a Good Guy. Don't concede to facile assumptions that others are nice like you. Notice. Counter.
The problem with this is that by using such a prejudicial term you have lumped all men - good and bad together, so we now hang based on the lowest common denominator.
This doesn't further the discussion or resolve the issue. Call out the individual for bad behavior.
Just to be clear: I explicitly distanced myself from the "prejudicial term" - assuming you mean "mansplaining". I explained that I think that some men, i.e. a certain subset who are arrogant jerks, do pretty much the same thing to other men they perceive as down-status from them.
I'd equally agree that certain women who are arrogant jerks do the same thing to both men and women they perceive as down-status, but (1) that wasn't what we were discussing, and (2) I think it's somewhat less common a scenario.
This is about as close to calling out individuals as one can get in a broad discussion, I think. I've called individual people out for it in real life - for talking down to others in an arrogant way, based on (frankly) prejudiced assumptions they were making (i.e., not for "mansplaining").
I've asked that decent men who don't treat women in the ways described up-thread please just notice that this stuff actually happens (and, by implication, believe the women who say it does). It's frequent, it's routine. It's because of some people's (some men's) perceptions about women. It's about gender, in these specific cases.
I spent 30 years in IT, starting when there weren't many women. It's happened to me, and the few women around me in that work setting, over, and over, and over -
men talking to less-expert men when I was the expert; men trying to make deals with men whose manager I was when I was present; etc. I'm not someone who sees sexism behind every shrub, whether it's present or not.
It's a thing, whether you have a special prejudicial word for it or not.
Why is this so hard to believe?
Is anyone refusing to believe that *kitten* inhabit the world? This is strawman construction. If we must down this road, then yes I've been wronged by men and women, but I focused ill thoughts to that individual and did not prosecute an entire gender based on the actions of a bad actor.
It happens to anyone entering a gender dominated field. Weak minds are easily threatened by competition. Male nurses, female engineers, etc. What is the end goal of this?
Simply call out bad behavior. I am no more responsible for the actions of a bad acting male than you are a bad acting female.
Hard to believe anyone is actually wasting time defending a prejudicial term.
the end goal is that we all have to acknowledge every groups grievance no matter how ridiculous in the name of the all knowing god of political correctness. Honestly, this is just another way to divide people into groups and then pit them against each other.
Exactly - Political correctness has been and always will be tyranny disguised as manners. Very attractive at first when you are a member of the deemed victimized demographic, but this is fleeting once you have served your purpose and those in power have moved on to the next divide and conquer tactic.
Agreed - it basically starts off as "free speech" and then turns to fascism/tyranny because other people then cannot say anything critical of the affected group, because they are then immediately branded as racist, bigoted, sexist, etc, etc...
If the argument is that people can't say anything critical because they don't like what people *might* say back to them, that's not a very robust argument for how political correctness is tyranny.
You're just imposing an expectation for silence on a different group of people, that's all.
I fully believe that those who have negative things to say about groups of people should be able to express their thoughts. People in those groups (or others who have a reaction to it) should have the same freedom to express their thoughts about those statements.
If a man wants to talk to me in a certain way, he should have every right to do so. Why would someone who also believes that think that I should stifle anything I wish to express in return because he doesn't like being called sexist?
no, my argument is that these affected groups want free speech, but if you dare and try and challenge anything they say, they then shut you down....
see Berkeley as the most recent example...
No one has done that here, and yet people have complained that the reaction is PC and therefore bad.
janejellyroll is precisely right -- part of free speech/the exchange of ideas is accepting that people may have negative reactions to your ideas and express their own contrary ideas.
This is actually why the idea that no one should disagree about nutrition stuff, because disagreement = negative is so terrible.
i never said anyone did that here...
Yes, that is part of free speech, and the other side of is that people may say things about you that you don't like; however, it does not make one a racist, bigot, etc, etc...
But if your comments are racist/bigoted/sexist, then expect to be called racist/bigoted/sexist.
well, of course..
but all too often legitimate critique is labelled as x,y,z when it is in fact, just a critique..
4
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