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What are your unpopular opinions about health / fitness?
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nutmegoreo wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »born_of_fire74 wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »I'd love to see how cavalier the "life ain't fair" attitudes displayed in this thread would be to this whole workplace ish if we had a matriarchal society that deferred to women and the gender norms were reversed.
Well, you see, the problem isn't the things the mansplainers are doing, the problem is that we are calling the things they are doing "mansplaining".
The problem is you're pretending those things are being done because you're a woman.
They happen to men just as often.
I have a friend who has transitioned from woman to man. He says that there is considerable difference in the way people treat him now. He is immediately afforded more respect in many different aspects of his life. Perhaps your lack of understanding stems from lack of experience.
hmm I find this interesting.
I am ex military and I was the 8th woman in my trade in the military in the country (same country as the parts technician) and I actually didn't run into much mansplaining...
I don't now either...
As for your friend yes he probably is...but then there are parts where he is afforded less.
For example as a woman I am a soft place for my child to run to and hug when they are hurt etc not the dad...just saying...
I sometimes think because some people "anticipate" things they see it where it might not be....I have often said you look hard enough and you will find an issue....
I'm not talking about mansplaining (a term I actually haven't used, until this post, and never in real life), the point was more regarding this assertion that men are treated no different from women. Which I disagree with. I think that both men and women are guilty of it, which is why I don't necessarily agree with the term mansplaining. I do find some of this conversation challenging to read through though because it has been very dismissive (I'm not referring to your post).5 -
born_of_fire74 wrote: »Mansplaining isn't a thing. Just because a man can't experience something personally, doesn't mean he doesn't know anything about it.
... And before you say 'I' am mansplaining, if you are still deludedly adament that I am, the same can in turn be applied to women. You don't know what men are experiencing, so don't 'womansplain'... Oh wait, does that sound ridiculous?
If mansplaining is not a thing, why do I have men at my parts counter (incorrectly) telling me how their car works when I'm a certified automotive technician and automotive parts person with over 17 years of experience in the industry? If illakso domansplaining is not a thing, why do I have men at my parts counter arguing with me when they have come to the dealership to tap my knowledge and experience? (Like the tardball I just got off the phone with insisting that a wire is run directly from the battery to his 7-pin hitch connector only moments ago). If mansplaining is not a thing, why are there men at my parts counter who do not believe me when I tell them something but have no trouble believing any one of the men I work with when they say the exact same thing as I just did?
How about you GTFOH with your "mansplaining is not a thing" garbage?
I would 'awesome' and 'insightful' this times six if I could.
Nice guys: Pay attention around you. There are men (a.k.a. arrogant jerks) around you who do this to woman experts who would not do it to you, even if you're an innocent amateur. Some of them will also do it to other men they implicitly perceive as down-status: Men of color, men who are not native born or for whom their (fluent, yet accented) English is not their first language, even men with certain regional accents in some cases. (P.S. This is why I don't use the term "mansplaining" other than in extreme jest: It's really about implicitly perceived general power, knowedge, dominance. Gender is just one case.)
You're a Good Guy. Don't concede to facile assumptions that others are nice like you. Notice. Counter.
The problem with this is that by using such a prejudicial term you have lumped all men - good and bad together, so we now hang based on the lowest common denominator.
This doesn't further the discussion or resolve the issue. Call out the individual for bad behavior.
Just to be clear: I explicitly distanced myself from the "prejudicial term" - assuming you mean "mansplaining". I explained that I think that some men, i.e. a certain subset who are arrogant jerks, do pretty much the same thing to other men they perceive as down-status from them.
I'd equally agree that certain women who are arrogant jerks do the same thing to both men and women they perceive as down-status, but (1) that wasn't what we were discussing, and (2) I think it's somewhat less common a scenario.
This is about as close to calling out individuals as one can get in a broad discussion, I think. I've called individual people out for it in real life - for talking down to others in an arrogant way, based on (frankly) prejudiced assumptions they were making (i.e., not for "mansplaining").
I've asked that decent men who don't treat women in the ways described up-thread please just notice that this stuff actually happens (and, by implication, believe the women who say it does). It's frequent, it's routine. It's because of some people's (some men's) perceptions about women. It's about gender, in these specific cases.
I spent 30 years in IT, starting when there weren't many women. It's happened to me, and the few women around me in that work setting, over, and over, and over -
men talking to less-expert men when I was the expert; men trying to make deals with men whose manager I was when I was present; etc. I'm not someone who sees sexism behind every shrub, whether it's present or not.
It's a thing, whether you have a special prejudicial word for it or not.
Why is this so hard to believe?
Is anyone refusing to believe that *kitten* inhabit the world? This is strawman construction. If we must down this road, then yes I've been wronged by men and women, but I focused ill thoughts to that individual and did not prosecute an entire gender based on the actions of a bad actor.
It happens to anyone entering a gender dominated field. Weak minds are easily threatened by competition. Male nurses, female engineers, etc. What is the end goal of this?
Simply call out bad behavior. I am no more responsible for the actions of a bad acting male than you are a bad acting female.
Hard to believe anyone is actually wasting time defending a prejudicial term.
the end goal is that we all have to acknowledge every groups grievance no matter how ridiculous in the name of the all knowing god of political correctness. Honestly, this is just another way to divide people into groups and then pit them against each other.5 -
stevencloser wrote: »Can't we all just live together in harmony?
I was going to say that it seems really early to be drunk, then I remembered you're in a different time zone. :bigsmile: :drinker:7 -
clicketykeys wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »clicketykeys wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »born_of_fire74 wrote: »Mansplaining isn't a thing. Just because a man can't experience something personally, doesn't mean he doesn't know anything about it.
... And before you say 'I' am mansplaining, if you are still deludedly adament that I am, the same can in turn be applied to women. You don't know what men are experiencing, so don't 'womansplain'... Oh wait, does that sound ridiculous?
If mansplaining is not a thing, why do I have men at my parts counter (incorrectly) telling me how their car works when I'm a certified automotive technician and automotive parts person with over 17 years of experience in the industry? If mansplaining is not a thing, why do I have men at my parts counter arguing with me when they have come to the dealership to tap my knowledge and experience? (Like the tardball I just got off the phone with insisting that a wire is run directly from the battery to his 7-pin hitch connector only moments ago). If mansplaining is not a thing, why are there men at my parts counter who do not believe me when I tell them something but have no trouble believing any one of the men I work with when they say the exact same thing as I just did?
How about you GTFOH with your "mansplaining is not a thing" garbage?
It's entirely possible that it has to do with where you're standing and how you're dressed vs your gender.
So what's your theory for why we don't hear guys complaining how their customers refuse to accept their answer and then accept the same information from a female coworker nearly as often? Do you think women are just more sensitive and less capable of observing events rationally?
So your saying this never, ever happens??
Well, she did say "why don't we hear . . . nearly as often".
I'm thinking there's a hint about the answer to your question in there somewhere.
Perhaps its because "guys" are conditioned/trained/nurtured to desire, embrace, pursue, accept, and flourish in opposition and adversity..
That doesn't seem to have anything to do with the point at hand - the observation that more women than men say they experience having their knowledge and expertise shown disrespect by people not listening to them, explaining things to them that they already know, and/or talking over them, and in many cases listening instead to a male with less knowledge or expertise.
What does being trained to flourish in adversity have to do with this?
I read it as a claim that men desire, embrace, and pursue situations where people will explain to them things they already know, discredit their actual experiences, and question their knowledge and/or capabilities. My experience with men, generally, has been . . . different. But if OP actively seeks out those situations and enjoys them, I won't second-guess him.11 -
clicketykeys wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »clicketykeys wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »born_of_fire74 wrote: »Mansplaining isn't a thing. Just because a man can't experience something personally, doesn't mean he doesn't know anything about it.
... And before you say 'I' am mansplaining, if you are still deludedly adament that I am, the same can in turn be applied to women. You don't know what men are experiencing, so don't 'womansplain'... Oh wait, does that sound ridiculous?
If mansplaining is not a thing, why do I have men at my parts counter (incorrectly) telling me how their car works when I'm a certified automotive technician and automotive parts person with over 17 years of experience in the industry? If mansplaining is not a thing, why do I have men at my parts counter arguing with me when they have come to the dealership to tap my knowledge and experience? (Like the tardball I just got off the phone with insisting that a wire is run directly from the battery to his 7-pin hitch connector only moments ago). If mansplaining is not a thing, why are there men at my parts counter who do not believe me when I tell them something but have no trouble believing any one of the men I work with when they say the exact same thing as I just did?
How about you GTFOH with your "mansplaining is not a thing" garbage?
It's entirely possible that it has to do with where you're standing and how you're dressed vs your gender.
So what's your theory for why we don't hear guys complaining how their customers refuse to accept their answer and then accept the same information from a female coworker nearly as often? Do you think women are just more sensitive and less capable of observing events rationally?
So your saying this never, ever happens??
Well, she did say "why don't we hear . . . nearly as often".
I'm thinking there's a hint about the answer to your question in there somewhere.
Perhaps its because "guys" are conditioned/trained/nurtured to desire, embrace, pursue, accept, and flourish in opposition and adversity..
That doesn't seem to have anything to do with the point at hand - the observation that more women than men say they experience having their knowledge and expertise shown disrespect by people not listening to them, explaining things to them that they already know, and/or talking over them, and in many cases listening instead to a male with less knowledge or expertise.
What does being trained to flourish in adversity have to do with this?
Men experience disrespect and move on. They don't talk about it *In Public*. and they generally don't complain about how someone disrespected their "nametag and certification".
For the record anyone... male or female who demands respect based on a "nametag and certificate" isn't likely to get it.7 -
stanmann571 wrote: »born_of_fire74 wrote: »The government where I live disagrees with the mansplainer. Parts technicians are in fact parts technicians, as my professional accreditation shows. But what do I know? I'm just the person who went to school to get the accreditation.
Your accreditation says Journeyman(2016), which is a 4-6 year apprenticeship generally,
You say you've got 18 years experience.
There's some inconsistencies here.
I was curious about the differences in Parts Technicians/Managers in Canada - compared to the USA, as I've been around the industry quite a bit in my life. I'm a hobby mechanic and a few of my friends own specialty shops and build racing cars... so I looked it up. Seems pretty similar to the job around here - same responsibilities at least. I've never put to much emphasis on the term "technician" as the word that precedes that title is usually the focus.
https://tradesecrets.alberta.ca/trades-occupations/profiles/0271/0 -
stanmann571 wrote: »clicketykeys wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »clicketykeys wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »born_of_fire74 wrote: »Mansplaining isn't a thing. Just because a man can't experience something personally, doesn't mean he doesn't know anything about it.
... And before you say 'I' am mansplaining, if you are still deludedly adament that I am, the same can in turn be applied to women. You don't know what men are experiencing, so don't 'womansplain'... Oh wait, does that sound ridiculous?
If mansplaining is not a thing, why do I have men at my parts counter (incorrectly) telling me how their car works when I'm a certified automotive technician and automotive parts person with over 17 years of experience in the industry? If mansplaining is not a thing, why do I have men at my parts counter arguing with me when they have come to the dealership to tap my knowledge and experience? (Like the tardball I just got off the phone with insisting that a wire is run directly from the battery to his 7-pin hitch connector only moments ago). If mansplaining is not a thing, why are there men at my parts counter who do not believe me when I tell them something but have no trouble believing any one of the men I work with when they say the exact same thing as I just did?
How about you GTFOH with your "mansplaining is not a thing" garbage?
It's entirely possible that it has to do with where you're standing and how you're dressed vs your gender.
So what's your theory for why we don't hear guys complaining how their customers refuse to accept their answer and then accept the same information from a female coworker nearly as often? Do you think women are just more sensitive and less capable of observing events rationally?
So your saying this never, ever happens??
Well, she did say "why don't we hear . . . nearly as often".
I'm thinking there's a hint about the answer to your question in there somewhere.
Perhaps its because "guys" are conditioned/trained/nurtured to desire, embrace, pursue, accept, and flourish in opposition and adversity..
That doesn't seem to have anything to do with the point at hand - the observation that more women than men say they experience having their knowledge and expertise shown disrespect by people not listening to them, explaining things to them that they already know, and/or talking over them, and in many cases listening instead to a male with less knowledge or expertise.
What does being trained to flourish in adversity have to do with this?
Men experience disrespect and move on. They don't talk about it *In Public*. and they generally don't complain about how someone disrespected their "nametag and certification".
For the record anyone... male or female who demands respect based on a "nametag and certificate" isn't likely to get it.
I think the history of dueling, bar fights, road rage, and other assorted acts of violence shows that not all men have this ability to "move on" after they feel they have experienced disrespect.
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stanmann571 wrote: »born_of_fire74 wrote: »The government where I live disagrees with the mansplainer. Parts technicians are in fact parts technicians, as my professional accreditation shows. But what do I know? I'm just the person who went to school to get the accreditation.
Your accreditation says Journeyman(2016), which is a 4-6 year apprenticeship generally,
You say you've got 18 years experience.
There's some inconsistencies here.
In Canada to get your red seal the time depends on where you live and what your NOC is.
Parts technician in Alberta requires 3 years, min 1500 hours yearly on the job training with 6-8 weeks in school each year.
That could be different in Sk or NB.
My son is a welder and his time here in our home province differs from Alberta.
As for exp vs certification...not sure why that is an issue. My son has been a welder for 3 years now and doesn't have his red seal yet...he might be 50 before he gets it but doesn't negate his experience in the trade.7 -
born_of_fire74 wrote: »Mansplaining isn't a thing. Just because a man can't experience something personally, doesn't mean he doesn't know anything about it.
... And before you say 'I' am mansplaining, if you are still deludedly adament that I am, the same can in turn be applied to women. You don't know what men are experiencing, so don't 'womansplain'... Oh wait, does that sound ridiculous?
If mansplaining is not a thing, why do I have men at my parts counter (incorrectly) telling me how their car works when I'm a certified automotive technician and automotive parts person with over 17 years of experience in the industry? If illakso domansplaining is not a thing, why do I have men at my parts counter arguing with me when they have come to the dealership to tap my knowledge and experience? (Like the tardball I just got off the phone with insisting that a wire is run directly from the battery to his 7-pin hitch connector only moments ago). If mansplaining is not a thing, why are there men at my parts counter who do not believe me when I tell them something but have no trouble believing any one of the men I work with when they say the exact same thing as I just did?
How about you GTFOH with your "mansplaining is not a thing" garbage?
I would 'awesome' and 'insightful' this times six if I could.
Nice guys: Pay attention around you. There are men (a.k.a. arrogant jerks) around you who do this to woman experts who would not do it to you, even if you're an innocent amateur. Some of them will also do it to other men they implicitly perceive as down-status: Men of color, men who are not native born or for whom their (fluent, yet accented) English is not their first language, even men with certain regional accents in some cases. (P.S. This is why I don't use the term "mansplaining" other than in extreme jest: It's really about implicitly perceived general power, knowedge, dominance. Gender is just one case.)
You're a Good Guy. Don't concede to facile assumptions that others are nice like you. Notice. Counter.
The problem with this is that by using such a prejudicial term you have lumped all men - good and bad together, so we now hang based on the lowest common denominator.
This doesn't further the discussion or resolve the issue. Call out the individual for bad behavior.
Just to be clear: I explicitly distanced myself from the "prejudicial term" - assuming you mean "mansplaining". I explained that I think that some men, i.e. a certain subset who are arrogant jerks, do pretty much the same thing to other men they perceive as down-status from them.
I'd equally agree that certain women who are arrogant jerks do the same thing to both men and women they perceive as down-status, but (1) that wasn't what we were discussing, and (2) I think it's somewhat less common a scenario.
This is about as close to calling out individuals as one can get in a broad discussion, I think. I've called individual people out for it in real life - for talking down to others in an arrogant way, based on (frankly) prejudiced assumptions they were making (i.e., not for "mansplaining").
I've asked that decent men who don't treat women in the ways described up-thread please just notice that this stuff actually happens (and, by implication, believe the women who say it does). It's frequent, it's routine. It's because of some people's (some men's) perceptions about women. It's about gender, in these specific cases.
I spent 30 years in IT, starting when there weren't many women. It's happened to me, and the few women around me in that work setting, over, and over, and over -
men talking to less-expert men when I was the expert; men trying to make deals with men whose manager I was when I was present; etc. I'm not someone who sees sexism behind every shrub, whether it's present or not.
It's a thing, whether you have a special prejudicial word for it or not.
Why is this so hard to believe?
Is anyone refusing to believe that *kitten* inhabit the world? This is strawman construction. If we must down this road, then yes I've been wronged by men and women, but I focused ill thoughts to that individual and did not prosecute an entire gender based on the actions of a bad actor.
It happens to anyone entering a gender dominated field. Weak minds are easily threatened by competition. Male nurses, female engineers, etc. What is the end goal of this?
Simply call out bad behavior. I am no more responsible for the actions of a bad acting male than you are a bad acting female.
Hard to believe anyone is actually wasting time defending a prejudicial term.
the end goal is that we all have to acknowledge every groups grievance no matter how ridiculous in the name of the all knowing god of political correctness. Honestly, this is just another way to divide people into groups and then pit them against each other.
Exactly - Political correctness has been and always will be tyranny disguised as manners. Very attractive at first when you are a member of the deemed victimized demographic, but this is fleeting once you have served your purpose and those in power have moved on to the next divide and conquer tactic.9 -
stanmann571 wrote: »clicketykeys wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »clicketykeys wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »born_of_fire74 wrote: »Mansplaining isn't a thing. Just because a man can't experience something personally, doesn't mean he doesn't know anything about it.
... And before you say 'I' am mansplaining, if you are still deludedly adament that I am, the same can in turn be applied to women. You don't know what men are experiencing, so don't 'womansplain'... Oh wait, does that sound ridiculous?
If mansplaining is not a thing, why do I have men at my parts counter (incorrectly) telling me how their car works when I'm a certified automotive technician and automotive parts person with over 17 years of experience in the industry? If mansplaining is not a thing, why do I have men at my parts counter arguing with me when they have come to the dealership to tap my knowledge and experience? (Like the tardball I just got off the phone with insisting that a wire is run directly from the battery to his 7-pin hitch connector only moments ago). If mansplaining is not a thing, why are there men at my parts counter who do not believe me when I tell them something but have no trouble believing any one of the men I work with when they say the exact same thing as I just did?
How about you GTFOH with your "mansplaining is not a thing" garbage?
It's entirely possible that it has to do with where you're standing and how you're dressed vs your gender.
So what's your theory for why we don't hear guys complaining how their customers refuse to accept their answer and then accept the same information from a female coworker nearly as often? Do you think women are just more sensitive and less capable of observing events rationally?
So your saying this never, ever happens??
Well, she did say "why don't we hear . . . nearly as often".
I'm thinking there's a hint about the answer to your question in there somewhere.
Perhaps its because "guys" are conditioned/trained/nurtured to desire, embrace, pursue, accept, and flourish in opposition and adversity..
That doesn't seem to have anything to do with the point at hand - the observation that more women than men say they experience having their knowledge and expertise shown disrespect by people not listening to them, explaining things to them that they already know, and/or talking over them, and in many cases listening instead to a male with less knowledge or expertise.
What does being trained to flourish in adversity have to do with this?
Men Successful people experience disrespect and move on. They don't talk about it *In Public*. and they generally don't complain about how someone disrespected their "nametag and certification".
For the record anyone... male or female who demands respect based on a "nametag and certificate" isn't likely to get it.
Fixed.
As someone told me early on "Never rely on the letters behind your name. You must always rely on the substance of your word."12 -
stanmann571 wrote: »clicketykeys wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »clicketykeys wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »born_of_fire74 wrote: »Mansplaining isn't a thing. Just because a man can't experience something personally, doesn't mean he doesn't know anything about it.
... And before you say 'I' am mansplaining, if you are still deludedly adament that I am, the same can in turn be applied to women. You don't know what men are experiencing, so don't 'womansplain'... Oh wait, does that sound ridiculous?
If mansplaining is not a thing, why do I have men at my parts counter (incorrectly) telling me how their car works when I'm a certified automotive technician and automotive parts person with over 17 years of experience in the industry? If mansplaining is not a thing, why do I have men at my parts counter arguing with me when they have come to the dealership to tap my knowledge and experience? (Like the tardball I just got off the phone with insisting that a wire is run directly from the battery to his 7-pin hitch connector only moments ago). If mansplaining is not a thing, why are there men at my parts counter who do not believe me when I tell them something but have no trouble believing any one of the men I work with when they say the exact same thing as I just did?
How about you GTFOH with your "mansplaining is not a thing" garbage?
It's entirely possible that it has to do with where you're standing and how you're dressed vs your gender.
So what's your theory for why we don't hear guys complaining how their customers refuse to accept their answer and then accept the same information from a female coworker nearly as often? Do you think women are just more sensitive and less capable of observing events rationally?
So your saying this never, ever happens??
Well, she did say "why don't we hear . . . nearly as often".
I'm thinking there's a hint about the answer to your question in there somewhere.
Perhaps its because "guys" are conditioned/trained/nurtured to desire, embrace, pursue, accept, and flourish in opposition and adversity..
That doesn't seem to have anything to do with the point at hand - the observation that more women than men say they experience having their knowledge and expertise shown disrespect by people not listening to them, explaining things to them that they already know, and/or talking over them, and in many cases listening instead to a male with less knowledge or expertise.
What does being trained to flourish in adversity have to do with this?
Men Successful people experience disrespect and move on. They don't talk about it *In Public*. and they generally don't complain about how someone disrespected their "nametag and certification".
For the record anyone... male or female who demands respect based on a "nametag and certificate" isn't likely to get it.
Fixed.
As someone told me early on "Never rely on the letters behind your name. You must always rely on the substance of your word."
You're absolutely correct.1 -
8
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You have not been paying attention to presidential politics in the United States recently...stanmann571 wrote: »clicketykeys wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »clicketykeys wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »born_of_fire74 wrote: »Mansplaining isn't a thing. Just because a man can't experience something personally, doesn't mean he doesn't know anything about it.
... And before you say 'I' am mansplaining, if you are still deludedly adament that I am, the same can in turn be applied to women. You don't know what men are experiencing, so don't 'womansplain'... Oh wait, does that sound ridiculous?
If mansplaining is not a thing, why do I have men at my parts counter (incorrectly) telling me how their car works when I'm a certified automotive technician and automotive parts person with over 17 years of experience in the industry? If mansplaining is not a thing, why do I have men at my parts counter arguing with me when they have come to the dealership to tap my knowledge and experience? (Like the tardball I just got off the phone with insisting that a wire is run directly from the battery to his 7-pin hitch connector only moments ago). If mansplaining is not a thing, why are there men at my parts counter who do not believe me when I tell them something but have no trouble believing any one of the men I work with when they say the exact same thing as I just did?
How about you GTFOH with your "mansplaining is not a thing" garbage?
It's entirely possible that it has to do with where you're standing and how you're dressed vs your gender.
So what's your theory for why we don't hear guys complaining how their customers refuse to accept their answer and then accept the same information from a female coworker nearly as often? Do you think women are just more sensitive and less capable of observing events rationally?
So your saying this never, ever happens??
Well, she did say "why don't we hear . . . nearly as often".
I'm thinking there's a hint about the answer to your question in there somewhere.
Perhaps its because "guys" are conditioned/trained/nurtured to desire, embrace, pursue, accept, and flourish in opposition and adversity..
That doesn't seem to have anything to do with the point at hand - the observation that more women than men say they experience having their knowledge and expertise shown disrespect by people not listening to them, explaining things to them that they already know, and/or talking over them, and in many cases listening instead to a male with less knowledge or expertise.
What does being trained to flourish in adversity have to do with this?
Men experience disrespect and move on. They don't talk about it *In Public*. and they generally don't complain about how someone disrespected their "nametag and certification".
For the record anyone... male or female who demands respect based on a "nametag and certificate" isn't likely to get it.
21 -
born_of_fire74 wrote: »Mansplaining isn't a thing. Just because a man can't experience something personally, doesn't mean he doesn't know anything about it.
... And before you say 'I' am mansplaining, if you are still deludedly adament that I am, the same can in turn be applied to women. You don't know what men are experiencing, so don't 'womansplain'... Oh wait, does that sound ridiculous?
If mansplaining is not a thing, why do I have men at my parts counter (incorrectly) telling me how their car works when I'm a certified automotive technician and automotive parts person with over 17 years of experience in the industry? If illakso domansplaining is not a thing, why do I have men at my parts counter arguing with me when they have come to the dealership to tap my knowledge and experience? (Like the tardball I just got off the phone with insisting that a wire is run directly from the battery to his 7-pin hitch connector only moments ago). If mansplaining is not a thing, why are there men at my parts counter who do not believe me when I tell them something but have no trouble believing any one of the men I work with when they say the exact same thing as I just did?
How about you GTFOH with your "mansplaining is not a thing" garbage?
I would 'awesome' and 'insightful' this times six if I could.
Nice guys: Pay attention around you. There are men (a.k.a. arrogant jerks) around you who do this to woman experts who would not do it to you, even if you're an innocent amateur. Some of them will also do it to other men they implicitly perceive as down-status: Men of color, men who are not native born or for whom their (fluent, yet accented) English is not their first language, even men with certain regional accents in some cases. (P.S. This is why I don't use the term "mansplaining" other than in extreme jest: It's really about implicitly perceived general power, knowedge, dominance. Gender is just one case.)
You're a Good Guy. Don't concede to facile assumptions that others are nice like you. Notice. Counter.
The problem with this is that by using such a prejudicial term you have lumped all men - good and bad together, so we now hang based on the lowest common denominator.
This doesn't further the discussion or resolve the issue. Call out the individual for bad behavior.
Just to be clear: I explicitly distanced myself from the "prejudicial term" - assuming you mean "mansplaining". I explained that I think that some men, i.e. a certain subset who are arrogant jerks, do pretty much the same thing to other men they perceive as down-status from them.
I'd equally agree that certain women who are arrogant jerks do the same thing to both men and women they perceive as down-status, but (1) that wasn't what we were discussing, and (2) I think it's somewhat less common a scenario.
This is about as close to calling out individuals as one can get in a broad discussion, I think. I've called individual people out for it in real life - for talking down to others in an arrogant way, based on (frankly) prejudiced assumptions they were making (i.e., not for "mansplaining").
I've asked that decent men who don't treat women in the ways described up-thread please just notice that this stuff actually happens (and, by implication, believe the women who say it does). It's frequent, it's routine. It's because of some people's (some men's) perceptions about women. It's about gender, in these specific cases.
I spent 30 years in IT, starting when there weren't many women. It's happened to me, and the few women around me in that work setting, over, and over, and over -
men talking to less-expert men when I was the expert; men trying to make deals with men whose manager I was when I was present; etc. I'm not someone who sees sexism behind every shrub, whether it's present or not.
It's a thing, whether you have a special prejudicial word for it or not.
Why is this so hard to believe?
Is anyone refusing to believe that *kitten* inhabit the world? This is strawman construction. If we must down this road, then yes I've been wronged by men and women, but I focused ill thoughts to that individual and did not prosecute an entire gender based on the actions of a bad actor.
It happens to anyone entering a gender dominated field. Weak minds are easily threatened by competition. Male nurses, female engineers, etc. What is the end goal of this?
Simply call out bad behavior. I am no more responsible for the actions of a bad acting male than you are a bad acting female.
Hard to believe anyone is actually wasting time defending a prejudicial term.
the end goal is that we all have to acknowledge every groups grievance no matter how ridiculous in the name of the all knowing god of political correctness. Honestly, this is just another way to divide people into groups and then pit them against each other.
Exactly - Political correctness has been and always will be tyranny disguised as manners. Very attractive at first when you are a member of the deemed victimized demographic, but this is fleeting once you have served your purpose and those in power have moved on to the next divide and conquer tactic.
Agreed - it basically starts off as "free speech" and then turns to fascism/tyranny because other people then cannot say anything critical of the affected group, because they are then immediately branded as racist, bigoted, sexist, etc, etc...10 -
What does any of the previous three or so pages of this topic have to do with our unpopular health opinions?10
-
Strawblackcat wrote: »What does any of the previous three or so pages of this topic have to do with our unpopular health opinions?
we are on page 44, so nothing.2 -
WJS_jeepster wrote: »My unpopular opinion is that there is no way we all need to be drinking all this water. I see multiple people bring in their water bottles for a 45 MINUTE church service. Seriously? I know some people may have medical conditions or dry mouth or whatever, but your average person can't make it 45 minutes without their water?? It's like a weird status thing.
I totally agree with this! I remember going to a lecture on urinary incontinence in women, and the lecturer said at one point, "sometimes, it just boils down to a woman just drinking too much water! I mean, the recommendation for eight 8 oz glasses of water a day was pulled out of thin air!"
Yes, I think if you are thirsty water is the best thing to drink, yes, if you are going on a run in hot weather, hydrate. but you do not need to drink to the point your urine has no yellow in it at all, and feeling thirsty is not a sign you are way too dehydrated and it's too late (which is what I was told many years ago when I first started running).
anyway, sorry if this post is a distraction!
3 -
born_of_fire74 wrote: »Mansplaining isn't a thing. Just because a man can't experience something personally, doesn't mean he doesn't know anything about it.
... And before you say 'I' am mansplaining, if you are still deludedly adament that I am, the same can in turn be applied to women. You don't know what men are experiencing, so don't 'womansplain'... Oh wait, does that sound ridiculous?
If mansplaining is not a thing, why do I have men at my parts counter (incorrectly) telling me how their car works when I'm a certified automotive technician and automotive parts person with over 17 years of experience in the industry? If illakso domansplaining is not a thing, why do I have men at my parts counter arguing with me when they have come to the dealership to tap my knowledge and experience? (Like the tardball I just got off the phone with insisting that a wire is run directly from the battery to his 7-pin hitch connector only moments ago). If mansplaining is not a thing, why are there men at my parts counter who do not believe me when I tell them something but have no trouble believing any one of the men I work with when they say the exact same thing as I just did?
How about you GTFOH with your "mansplaining is not a thing" garbage?
I would 'awesome' and 'insightful' this times six if I could.
Nice guys: Pay attention around you. There are men (a.k.a. arrogant jerks) around you who do this to woman experts who would not do it to you, even if you're an innocent amateur. Some of them will also do it to other men they implicitly perceive as down-status: Men of color, men who are not native born or for whom their (fluent, yet accented) English is not their first language, even men with certain regional accents in some cases. (P.S. This is why I don't use the term "mansplaining" other than in extreme jest: It's really about implicitly perceived general power, knowedge, dominance. Gender is just one case.)
You're a Good Guy. Don't concede to facile assumptions that others are nice like you. Notice. Counter.
The problem with this is that by using such a prejudicial term you have lumped all men - good and bad together, so we now hang based on the lowest common denominator.
This doesn't further the discussion or resolve the issue. Call out the individual for bad behavior.
Just to be clear: I explicitly distanced myself from the "prejudicial term" - assuming you mean "mansplaining". I explained that I think that some men, i.e. a certain subset who are arrogant jerks, do pretty much the same thing to other men they perceive as down-status from them.
I'd equally agree that certain women who are arrogant jerks do the same thing to both men and women they perceive as down-status, but (1) that wasn't what we were discussing, and (2) I think it's somewhat less common a scenario.
This is about as close to calling out individuals as one can get in a broad discussion, I think. I've called individual people out for it in real life - for talking down to others in an arrogant way, based on (frankly) prejudiced assumptions they were making (i.e., not for "mansplaining").
I've asked that decent men who don't treat women in the ways described up-thread please just notice that this stuff actually happens (and, by implication, believe the women who say it does). It's frequent, it's routine. It's because of some people's (some men's) perceptions about women. It's about gender, in these specific cases.
I spent 30 years in IT, starting when there weren't many women. It's happened to me, and the few women around me in that work setting, over, and over, and over -
men talking to less-expert men when I was the expert; men trying to make deals with men whose manager I was when I was present; etc. I'm not someone who sees sexism behind every shrub, whether it's present or not.
It's a thing, whether you have a special prejudicial word for it or not.
Why is this so hard to believe?
Is anyone refusing to believe that *kitten* inhabit the world? This is strawman construction. If we must down this road, then yes I've been wronged by men and women, but I focused ill thoughts to that individual and did not prosecute an entire gender based on the actions of a bad actor.
It happens to anyone entering a gender dominated field. Weak minds are easily threatened by competition. Male nurses, female engineers, etc. What is the end goal of this?
Simply call out bad behavior. I am no more responsible for the actions of a bad acting male than you are a bad acting female.
Hard to believe anyone is actually wasting time defending a prejudicial term.
the end goal is that we all have to acknowledge every groups grievance no matter how ridiculous in the name of the all knowing god of political correctness. Honestly, this is just another way to divide people into groups and then pit them against each other.
Exactly - Political correctness has been and always will be tyranny disguised as manners. Very attractive at first when you are a member of the deemed victimized demographic, but this is fleeting once you have served your purpose and those in power have moved on to the next divide and conquer tactic.
Agreed - it basically starts off as "free speech" and then turns to fascism/tyranny because other people then cannot say anything critical of the affected group, because they are then immediately branded as racist, bigoted, sexist, etc, etc...
If the argument is that people can't say anything critical because they don't like what people *might* say back to them, that's not a very robust argument for how political correctness is tyranny.
You're just imposing an expectation for silence on a different group of people, that's all.
I fully believe that those who have negative things to say about groups of people should be able to express their thoughts. People in those groups (or others who have a reaction to it) should have the same freedom to express their thoughts about those statements.
If a man wants to talk to me in a certain way, he should have every right to do so. Why would someone who also believes that think that I should stifle anything I wish to express in return because he doesn't like being called sexist?18 -
Strawblackcat wrote: »What does any of the previous three or so pages of this topic have to do with our unpopular health opinions?
Because at some point, a couple of people expressed a (genuinely unpopular) opinion about weight gain during pregnancy and it inspired a discussion about how some women feel some men address women.5 -
janejellyroll wrote: »born_of_fire74 wrote: »Mansplaining isn't a thing. Just because a man can't experience something personally, doesn't mean he doesn't know anything about it.
... And before you say 'I' am mansplaining, if you are still deludedly adament that I am, the same can in turn be applied to women. You don't know what men are experiencing, so don't 'womansplain'... Oh wait, does that sound ridiculous?
If mansplaining is not a thing, why do I have men at my parts counter (incorrectly) telling me how their car works when I'm a certified automotive technician and automotive parts person with over 17 years of experience in the industry? If illakso domansplaining is not a thing, why do I have men at my parts counter arguing with me when they have come to the dealership to tap my knowledge and experience? (Like the tardball I just got off the phone with insisting that a wire is run directly from the battery to his 7-pin hitch connector only moments ago). If mansplaining is not a thing, why are there men at my parts counter who do not believe me when I tell them something but have no trouble believing any one of the men I work with when they say the exact same thing as I just did?
How about you GTFOH with your "mansplaining is not a thing" garbage?
I would 'awesome' and 'insightful' this times six if I could.
Nice guys: Pay attention around you. There are men (a.k.a. arrogant jerks) around you who do this to woman experts who would not do it to you, even if you're an innocent amateur. Some of them will also do it to other men they implicitly perceive as down-status: Men of color, men who are not native born or for whom their (fluent, yet accented) English is not their first language, even men with certain regional accents in some cases. (P.S. This is why I don't use the term "mansplaining" other than in extreme jest: It's really about implicitly perceived general power, knowedge, dominance. Gender is just one case.)
You're a Good Guy. Don't concede to facile assumptions that others are nice like you. Notice. Counter.
The problem with this is that by using such a prejudicial term you have lumped all men - good and bad together, so we now hang based on the lowest common denominator.
This doesn't further the discussion or resolve the issue. Call out the individual for bad behavior.
Just to be clear: I explicitly distanced myself from the "prejudicial term" - assuming you mean "mansplaining". I explained that I think that some men, i.e. a certain subset who are arrogant jerks, do pretty much the same thing to other men they perceive as down-status from them.
I'd equally agree that certain women who are arrogant jerks do the same thing to both men and women they perceive as down-status, but (1) that wasn't what we were discussing, and (2) I think it's somewhat less common a scenario.
This is about as close to calling out individuals as one can get in a broad discussion, I think. I've called individual people out for it in real life - for talking down to others in an arrogant way, based on (frankly) prejudiced assumptions they were making (i.e., not for "mansplaining").
I've asked that decent men who don't treat women in the ways described up-thread please just notice that this stuff actually happens (and, by implication, believe the women who say it does). It's frequent, it's routine. It's because of some people's (some men's) perceptions about women. It's about gender, in these specific cases.
I spent 30 years in IT, starting when there weren't many women. It's happened to me, and the few women around me in that work setting, over, and over, and over -
men talking to less-expert men when I was the expert; men trying to make deals with men whose manager I was when I was present; etc. I'm not someone who sees sexism behind every shrub, whether it's present or not.
It's a thing, whether you have a special prejudicial word for it or not.
Why is this so hard to believe?
Is anyone refusing to believe that *kitten* inhabit the world? This is strawman construction. If we must down this road, then yes I've been wronged by men and women, but I focused ill thoughts to that individual and did not prosecute an entire gender based on the actions of a bad actor.
It happens to anyone entering a gender dominated field. Weak minds are easily threatened by competition. Male nurses, female engineers, etc. What is the end goal of this?
Simply call out bad behavior. I am no more responsible for the actions of a bad acting male than you are a bad acting female.
Hard to believe anyone is actually wasting time defending a prejudicial term.
the end goal is that we all have to acknowledge every groups grievance no matter how ridiculous in the name of the all knowing god of political correctness. Honestly, this is just another way to divide people into groups and then pit them against each other.
Exactly - Political correctness has been and always will be tyranny disguised as manners. Very attractive at first when you are a member of the deemed victimized demographic, but this is fleeting once you have served your purpose and those in power have moved on to the next divide and conquer tactic.
Agreed - it basically starts off as "free speech" and then turns to fascism/tyranny because other people then cannot say anything critical of the affected group, because they are then immediately branded as racist, bigoted, sexist, etc, etc...
If the argument is that people can't say anything critical because they don't like what people *might* say back to them, that's not a very robust argument for how political correctness is tyranny.
You're just imposing an expectation for silence on a different group of people, that's all.
I fully believe that those who have negative things to say about groups of people should be able to express their thoughts. People in those groups (or others who have a reaction to it) should have the same freedom to express their thoughts about those statements.
If a man wants to talk to me in a certain way, he should have every right to do so. Why would someone who also believes that think that I should stifle anything I wish to express in return because he doesn't like being called sexist?
no, my argument is that these affected groups want free speech, but if you dare and try and challenge anything they say, they then shut you down....
see Berkeley as the most recent example...5
This discussion has been closed.
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