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What are your unpopular opinions about health / fitness?
Replies
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drbeanie2000 wrote: »Here's another one:
I believe that there truly exist people who, for some reason, maintain their weight (or even gain) on an accurately-tracked calorie consumption level that seems absurdly low for their size, to most of us. And these people are more likely to post in the forums than people who lose at average calorie levels, or at higher than average calorie levels.
I think many/most who claim such a thing are mistaken - instead, they're eating more than they think, or over-estimating exercise burn. But I think some are truthful, and not mistaken. Maybe 1 in 50? Not sure.
Why? The statistics suggest that there would be outliers at both extremes. Good-sized TDEE discrepancies among extreme weight-losers suggest that surprising adaptations are in the realm of the possible. Also, I've observed this a very small number of times in my MFP friend feed - people who appear to track accurately, but lose very slowly, and require low calorie levels to do it. Finally, I seem to be an outlier on the other end of the scale - I maintain at a calorie level 30%+ higher than calculators predict from my characteristics.
I don't talk about this belief much, because I think people who incorrectly believe they have a "slow metabolism" are much (much) more common. But I wish the forums would be a little less bullying about this possibility, just in case: It's possible to say that an OP's beliefs are unlikely, without calling them names.
Thanks - my husband is just such a person. I've watched him forever scrupulously log his calories (he uses Lose It!) and work out almost every day and Just. Not. Lose. I think part of it is that whatever the fitness trackers/watches/whatever are telling him he expends in calories, just isn't true. It, in fact, couldn't be, for him. It just isn't.
Also that exercise is X amount better than "dieting" for his pre-diabetes glucose levels. Well, after a month of trekking in the Himalayas and losing 30 pounds, his blood sugar skyrocketed because they were mostly eating high-carb foods. I mentioned that to his nutritionist and she just ignored it. (I realize that was an extreme situation, of course.) It's like there is this "but that CAN'T be true" reaction, when it IS true. I'm a scientist so I know the extreme importance given to scientific evidence and controlled studies but.
At some point there are outliers. At some point, evidence is reality.
I'm one of them. It takes a ridiculously high level of activity for me to eat what most people my size/age would eat. I just had to lower my calorie intake another 250 calories because I've been experiencing weight creep for 2 months now.
At 5'9" and 158 lbs, I'm gaining weight on a net 1,550 / day calorie intake. This is in-line with my experience my whole life. I weigh everything, I don't nibble or snitch foods, and I'm extremely conservative on my exercise calories (only counting pedometer steps, not getting "extra" for higher-intensity activities like hiking or using the elliptical etc.) I had to maintain a deficit larger than predicted in order to lose the weight as well. This played into my weight creep in early adulthood as I found it difficult to keep up the discipline necessary to get 2+ hours of physical activity every day and impossible to maintain eating as little as I was allowed if I didn't. At this point I'm over the sense of injustice and just resigned to the fact that I can't change reality, no matter how unfair it is.
Same here. I can still get plenty of calories with activity because I'm still heavy, but it takes me more restriction to achieve a certain rate of weight loss (right now I have my age set to 20 years older on my fitbit to match my loss). I know it will get harder as I get smaller and my calorie budget gets tighter and at the rate this is going I will be at around 1500 net calories for maintenance which is about 200-250 calories lower than calculators predict. I completely agree with you. It is what it is, and knowing is better than not because it means I can work with what I have to achieve what I want. Wallowing in it would only make me miserable.5 -
Tiny_Dancer_in_Pink wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »@theresejesu are you turing complete?
ManOman . . . @stanmann571: You and I aren't always on the same wavelength, to say the least . . . but that's hilarious as baby feline, right there. Thanks for the belly laugh!.
Code breaker?
T.D.i.P.: Alan Turing. Turing test. Google it. There's a hoot in there.
I was actually half serious, there were some peculiar inconsistencies beyond normal human response.10 -
Another:
Just like you can't out exercise a bad diet, you can out supplement one either.8 -
stanmann571 wrote: »Tiny_Dancer_in_Pink wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »@theresejesu are you turing complete?
ManOman . . . @stanmann571: You and I aren't always on the same wavelength, to say the least . . . but that's hilarious as baby feline, right there. Thanks for the belly laugh!.
Code breaker?
T.D.i.P.: Alan Turing. Turing test. Google it. There's a hoot in there.
I was actually half serious, there were some peculiar inconsistencies beyond normal human response.
Absolutely - for just one example, a certain ELIZA-like tendency to pick out a single idea or phrase in a post - not necessarily the most important one - and respond to that in a way slightly tangent to the original line of reasoning, because it makes formulating a seemingly conversational response easier.
If it weren't plausibly true, your remark still would've been funny, but . . . .7 -
stanmann571 wrote: »Tiny_Dancer_in_Pink wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »@theresejesu are you turing complete?
ManOman . . . @stanmann571: You and I aren't always on the same wavelength, to say the least . . . but that's hilarious as baby feline, right there. Thanks for the belly laugh!.
Code breaker?
T.D.i.P.: Alan Turing. Turing test. Google it. There's a hoot in there.
I was actually half serious, there were some peculiar inconsistencies beyond normal human response.
Absolutely - for just one example, a certain ELIZA-like tendency to pick out a single idea or phrase in a post - not necessarily the most important one - and respond to that in a way slightly tangent to the original line of reasoning, because it makes formulating a seemingly conversational response easier.
If it weren't plausibly true, your remark still would've been funny, but . . . .
And the formerly daily poster hasn't been seen since my comment.
Honestly I'm interested, not just because I've spent time in the industry but also because of the potential applications for Moderate and Low functioning ASD. Especially since much of the truly groundbreaking work is being done by Moderate and High Functioning ASDers. Likely since some of the Moderate and High functioning ASDers I've had the privilege to work with over the years would have difficulties passing a strict Turing test.2 -
theresejesu wrote: »theresejesu wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »SiegfriedXXL wrote: »Bullying is such a strange topic for me. I was bullied mercilessly in school. I was the fat, short, effeminate kid all the way through school, with glasses, braces, and a bad haircut my mom gave me at home once a month. Every day was torture but I still went to school. I maintained a 4.0 and went off to college as soon as I could.
I could have easily shut down but I didn't. I learned to draw a very detailed map of Hell, hand it to my hecklers, and tell them to begin their journey forthwith. And no, I'm not just talking about name calling. I was locked in rooms, thrown in trash cans, physically assaulted, even spit on. I didn't post about it on MySpace. Did I cry about it? Sure, every goddamn night. Did I write *kitten* emo poetry about it? Sure did. But I got through it.
I never thought of offing myself. I never thought about blowing up the school. I just thought about surviving...and I did. So it kind of puzzles me when others can't. Maybe it's because social media makes everything so much more immediate. Maybe it's some other factor. I just tend to agree that there is something making people unable to shrug things off as easily and get on with their lives. We only have one after all.
I didn't kill myself or commit violence either (obviously) -- and it goes without saying, I'd hope, that I consider killing other people inappropriate, period, especially but not only complete innocents.
But to say -- as the other poster was -- that back in the day we just shrugged it off or weren't bothered by it, or it didn't hurt us, so everything was good then and is bad now (that people take it more seriously) seems to me totally inconsistent with what I saw and experienced back in the day and to how I saw people react.
That I ended up a pretty successful person and got past it doesn't mean that people who don't are just weak and we are coddling them. It means that maybe I don't know all they were experiencing and that people are different.
And people did kill themselves back when I was a kid too, so this idea that it's because kids are coddled now is nuts.
I'm not saying I had it worse than anyone else, who could say (and I do think lots of people had it a lot worse than me). But I was not unbothered by it, which is why I brought it up; I don't think it was unimportant or good for me, and that the culture of the time (or my school or my family -- obv the latter had a lot to do with it) was such that I said nothing about it and felt like it must be because there was something wrong with me (and still have a suspicion of that in the back of my head such that I usually would never admit to anyone that it happened) is screwed up and not a sign of a better way, IMO. That was the point I was trying to make.
For context, I'm 38. As a teenager, I had several friends who tried to kill themselves. Only one of them seemed to be related to social issues (that I know of), but the idea that children/teenagers are weaker today or point to some kind of "snowflaking" trend doesn't really resonate with me. And my peers and I didn't even have to worry about social media until we were older. It seems like young people today deal with a peer environment that is, in some ways, much more immersive and 24/7 than the ones I had to deal with when I was younger.
I'm 55.
I did try to kill myself.
It had more to do with a horrible home situation than anything I experienced socially. I'd reached a breaking point that had been simmering for years.
Sorry to hear about that, I hope things are better now.
Aw, thank you. That was almost 40 years ago. Things are much better now, though I am aware that depression is something I'm liable to deal with every now and then. Regular exercise is a big help in keeping it at bay.
Exercise almost always lifts my mood. It's gotten me through some really rough times in my life.
Taking this back to the topic of the thread, this is one of the reasons I'd encourage just about everyone to exercise in some way. It's somewhat popular to tell people that it's okay to not exercise, but I don't know how on board I am with that.
It doesn't need to be back-breaking or super vigorous, but the benefits for helping things like depression and stress are well worth any efforts that need to be made. Even just a 15 minute walk a day can be beneficial for helping these issues.
I had my last spell of major depression when my autoimmune arthritis manifested itself, and I spent ten years being not myself because of it. If I had only picked up the habit then, my life would have been so much different.
Yeah, if the question is "Do I have to exercise to lose weight?" the answer is no.
But if the question is "Should I exercise (or do some type of regular activity)?" my answer is virtually always going to be yes. I think it's such an important component of overall health.
It's like vegetables. You can lose weight without ever eating a vegetable. But it would be very challenging to meet your nutritional needs this way and I'd never recommend it to someone.
I was readying up on how our mitochondria function, and bought a book called
LIFE - THE EPIC STORY OF OUR MITOCHONDRIA: HOW THE ORIGINAL PROBIOTIC DICTATES YOUR HEALTH, ILLNESS, AGING, AND EVEN LIFE ITSELF
Fascinating book. Essentially a big reason why activity such as exercise is so important has to do with ATP generation and utilization. If we don't use ATP up fast enough, this leads to ATP "spilling over" which increases free radical production which then damages our mitochondria, which leads to a host of problems. I'm in a hurry so can't explain much now, but I highly recommend this book.
Absolute garbage pedaled as science. Yet another book written by an unqualified individual extolling the virtues of supplements, which by very definition cannot prove effectiveness.
You are a medical professional and should know better.
As a medical professional (now retired) I find it practically unbelievable that there is still so much ignorance regarding supplements among those with advanced education that even such a claim in regards to supplements, that somehow, by their "very definition, cannot prove effectivenes," as if this has any bearing on the reality of the proven or unproven effectiveness of individual supplements, is even entertainable.
Such painting of supplements, or anything else for that matter, with such a broad brush is not beneficial to anyone.
I would agree, particularly regarding alleged professionals and those with advanced degrees attempting to advance alleged risk/reward profiles of products without supporting objective evidence.
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stanmann571 wrote: »Tiny_Dancer_in_Pink wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »@theresejesu are you turing complete?
ManOman . . . @stanmann571: You and I aren't always on the same wavelength, to say the least . . . but that's hilarious as baby feline, right there. Thanks for the belly laugh!.
Code breaker?
T.D.i.P.: Alan Turing. Turing test. Google it. There's a hoot in there.
I was actually half serious, there were some peculiar inconsistencies beyond normal human response.
And yes very interesting that the comments stopped as soon as you posted that. In all the threads. Like "test over, humans 1, AI bot 0, back to the drawing board."7 -
HeliumIsNoble wrote: »Here concludes Helium's rant for this afternoon. Tune back in tomorrow for the next instalment.
i went all the way back and dug this one out of the backlog because i'm now on your side thanks to a 'conversation' i had with someone at work today.
more like four minutes' worth of why-are-you-telling-me-this on my part . . . and on hers, some kind of self-exculpatory thing that went on fore. ever. sometimes she puts ice cream in hers. not a lot, and of course not frequently, because that would be Bad, but sometimes. (patch of dead air). sometimes she adds wacky things. her actual word. (me not asking what things). like . . . matcha for instance. (extra dead air). sometimes (i quit listening here).
i'm on your side now because she was not actually wanking at me. it was more like, just because she's presumably seen me clutching a smoothie breakfast and/or eating 'interesting' things [leftovers] and plant life for lunch every day, she must have assumed that *I* must be one of those types. but science has no way of measuring the size of the *kitten* i don't give about what others eat or don't eat, so being grovelled at like some kind of Big Schoolyard Bully while she was boring the pants off me at the same time . . . it spoiled my lunch.
in 4 the smoothie hatred.
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amusedmonkey wrote: »drbeanie2000 wrote: »Here's another one:
I believe that there truly exist people who, for some reason, maintain their weight (or even gain) on an accurately-tracked calorie consumption level that seems absurdly low for their size, to most of us. And these people are more likely to post in the forums than people who lose at average calorie levels, or at higher than average calorie levels.
I think many/most who claim such a thing are mistaken - instead, they're eating more than they think, or over-estimating exercise burn. But I think some are truthful, and not mistaken. Maybe 1 in 50? Not sure.
Why? The statistics suggest that there would be outliers at both extremes. Good-sized TDEE discrepancies among extreme weight-losers suggest that surprising adaptations are in the realm of the possible. Also, I've observed this a very small number of times in my MFP friend feed - people who appear to track accurately, but lose very slowly, and require low calorie levels to do it. Finally, I seem to be an outlier on the other end of the scale - I maintain at a calorie level 30%+ higher than calculators predict from my characteristics.
I don't talk about this belief much, because I think people who incorrectly believe they have a "slow metabolism" are much (much) more common. But I wish the forums would be a little less bullying about this possibility, just in case: It's possible to say that an OP's beliefs are unlikely, without calling them names.
Thanks - my husband is just such a person. I've watched him forever scrupulously log his calories (he uses Lose It!) and work out almost every day and Just. Not. Lose. I think part of it is that whatever the fitness trackers/watches/whatever are telling him he expends in calories, just isn't true. It, in fact, couldn't be, for him. It just isn't.
Also that exercise is X amount better than "dieting" for his pre-diabetes glucose levels. Well, after a month of trekking in the Himalayas and losing 30 pounds, his blood sugar skyrocketed because they were mostly eating high-carb foods. I mentioned that to his nutritionist and she just ignored it. (I realize that was an extreme situation, of course.) It's like there is this "but that CAN'T be true" reaction, when it IS true. I'm a scientist so I know the extreme importance given to scientific evidence and controlled studies but.
At some point there are outliers. At some point, evidence is reality.
I'm one of them. It takes a ridiculously high level of activity for me to eat what most people my size/age would eat. I just had to lower my calorie intake another 250 calories because I've been experiencing weight creep for 2 months now.
At 5'9" and 158 lbs, I'm gaining weight on a net 1,550 / day calorie intake. This is in-line with my experience my whole life. I weigh everything, I don't nibble or snitch foods, and I'm extremely conservative on my exercise calories (only counting pedometer steps, not getting "extra" for higher-intensity activities like hiking or using the elliptical etc.) I had to maintain a deficit larger than predicted in order to lose the weight as well. This played into my weight creep in early adulthood as I found it difficult to keep up the discipline necessary to get 2+ hours of physical activity every day and impossible to maintain eating as little as I was allowed if I didn't. At this point I'm over the sense of injustice and just resigned to the fact that I can't change reality, no matter how unfair it is.
Same here. I can still get plenty of calories with activity because I'm still heavy, but it takes me more restriction to achieve a certain rate of weight loss (right now I have my age set to 20 years older on my fitbit to match my loss). I know it will get harder as I get smaller and my calorie budget gets tighter and at the rate this is going I will be at around 1500 net calories for maintenance which is about 200-250 calories lower than calculators predict. I completely agree with you. It is what it is, and knowing is better than not because it means I can work with what I have to achieve what I want. Wallowing in it would only make me miserable.
One more thing I have noticed which is curious. When I'm bed bound my calories are almost on point for loss. I'm not sure how much of it is healing and how much of it is just that my body has better economy for movement but not for essential functions. I tried to stay in bed all day once voluntarily to find out, but could not make it past day 2 which isn't enough data points. Curious nonetheless.2 -
@canadianlbs Oh, I hear you. Smoothies are not just smoothies to be eaten for sustenance, their consumption is performed as an act of public expiation.
Thomas Becket was on to something with just wearing a hair shirt and leaving it at that.
*pauses*
Hmm. I wonder. If I rig up a clickbait youtube video attributing my weight-loss to a hairshirt, and get a loan from the bank to set up a hairshirt production facility...
Gotta rush! See ya later, guys!
*runs*9 -
stanmann571 wrote: »Tiny_Dancer_in_Pink wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »@theresejesu are you turing complete?
ManOman . . . @stanmann571: You and I aren't always on the same wavelength, to say the least . . . but that's hilarious as baby feline, right there. Thanks for the belly laugh!.
Code breaker?
T.D.i.P.: Alan Turing. Turing test. Google it. There's a hoot in there.
I was actually half serious, there were some peculiar inconsistencies beyond normal human response.
Absolutely - for just one example, a certain ELIZA-like tendency to pick out a single idea or phrase in a post - not necessarily the most important one - and respond to that in a way slightly tangent to the original line of reasoning, because it makes formulating a seemingly conversational response easier.
If it weren't plausibly true, your remark still would've been funny, but . . . .
For me it was "three corners of woo" Cognitive dissonance is a real thing and real people can hold to opposing ideas, But when at various points It promoted Vegan propaganda, Keto Propaganda, and Paleo Propaganda within 48 hours, that exceeded plausibility, leading to the possibility of either professional troll or Turing Bot test.11 -
unpopular: i think yoga is the starbucks of the exercise world.
a) i was a kid in the 70's when it was trendy the first time around, and imo it's really not all that, in itself.
and
b) most of its current must-do aura is the fault of that lululemon guy. who i have met a few times and was not impressed by.7 -
Let's face it. It's humans and words which are the problems.
" Thus, we see that one of the obvious origins of human disagreement lies in the use of noises for words."
~ Alfred Korzybski
7 -
My unpopular opinion is that everyone who's not someone's doctor/nutritionist/personal trainer should just mind their own damn business when it comes to said someone's dieting, exercise, and health unless they specifically asked for their opinion.9
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AllTheCoffee wrote: »My unpopular opinion is that everyone who's not someone's doctor/nutritionist/personal trainer should just mind their own damn business when it comes to said someone's dieting, exercise, and health unless they specifically asked for their opinion.
Agree. And my related unpopular opinion is one should not share diet, exercise and health information with others unless they want comments on these subjects.17 -
I really dislike this low carb high fat diet stuff.... Yes I know it's helped a lot of people but it annoys me as I need to keep my fat low due to gallbladder issues and when searching for low fat recipes/fb groups etc all I keep getting is low carb high fat information because its so popular, plus all these fad diets that help lose weight temporally but not long term which consists of starving yourself of food and nutrients your body needs, it's not teaching people anything apart from an easy fix but 6 - 18 months later they will most likely be back where they started or even heavier. This is just my own personal view I'm far from an expert on weight loss as I am still tweaking my healthy lifestyle change now and then
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cmriverside wrote: »Let's face it. It's humans and words which are the problems.
" Thus, we see that one of the obvious origins of human disagreement lies in the use of noises for words."
~ Alfred Korzybski
Hey! That's my quote!
I even read his whole bleepin' book in the unabridged freakin' version, 927 pages, 3.4 pounds in hardcover, and hand-lettered the baby-feline quote in my journal, so I earned it! 
15 -
@AnnPT77
You know what's weird? I saw your journal page on another forum. . .maybe you posted it there or maybe there is voodoo going on...but I saved that page in my OneNote from another forum months ago. Unless it was here and I have forgotten and/or put it in the wrong place in my notes. I was too lazy to upload it to tinypic, but that's the image I would have put up. I actually Googled it this morning looking for that image.
Thanks! I love that journal page and I love that image more now that I know it's your original artwork. 7 -
Cardio sucks!2
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cmriverside wrote: »@AnnPT77
You know what's weird? I saw your journal page on another forum. . .maybe you posted it there or maybe there is voodoo going on...but I saved that page in my OneNote from another forum months ago. Unless it was here and I have forgotten and/or put it in the wrong place in my notes. I was too lazy to upload it to tinypic, but that's the image I would have put up. I actually Googled it this morning looking for that image.
Thanks! I love that journal page and I love that image more now that I know it's your original artwork.
Yeah, I posted it a while back on another thread, because sometimes that quote is just too perfect here. "Artwork" is too strong a word, but it's my very own scribbles. Guess I should watermark it, eh, before it magically becomes someone else's?
Thanks for the compliment!
Apologies for the digression chat here, folks.5 -
Dessert after meals is unnecessary and does nothing good for your health.12
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Dessert after meals is unnecessary and does nothing good for your health.
Unnecessary, true. Does nothing good for your health, that depends. If you really like having dessert after a meal and having it helps you moderate your calories and reduce your stress level, then it can be very healthy.16 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »Dessert after meals is unnecessary and does nothing good for your health.
Unnecessary, true. Does nothing good for your health, that depends. If you really like having dessert after a meal and having it helps you moderate your calories and reduce your stress level, then it can be very healthy.
Agreed. It also depends on the dessert and the context. Granita or sorbet in hot weather may help you cool off and stay hydrated. Low calorie desserts—at least, the ones I make—often contain a decent amount of fruit. (And the fruit may mean less added sugar). And some of them have a small but respectable 4g protein per serving.5 -
I love carbs and they make my workouts better!
I love weightlifting and I'm not a creatine or pre-workout kind of girl. So I like to have something small but heavy on the carbs with a bit of protein and fat an hour or so before the gym. Those carbs give me such a good pump when I'm doing things like bench presses and bent over rows.
I try to eat high protein but I'm also high carb if that makes sense. Just give me the food and put it in my face.
Don't try to convert me to any of your vegan, low fat, low carb, low fun, high stress food religions.15 -
I'm a high-carbing vegetarian myself, lol.2
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Dessert after meals is unnecessary and does nothing good for your health.
What if my dessert is fruit, natural yoghurt, protein powder, nuts and fits my calories and macros? Maybe not necessary, but probably contributing to micronutrients/vitamins/minerals I'd otherwise not get.
Mental health is also important - if a small treat after dinner makes me feel good, happy, satisfied etc, is that a bad thing?12 -
@MsHarryWinston Not going to try and convert you to veganism whatever, but mostly, vegans aren't going to convert you to low-carbing!
I think most of us are high carb. Unlike every other diet, the only place I encounter low-carbing vegans is the internet. (Could've knocked me down with a feather when I found out it was even possible to go low carb as a vegan, but maybe that says more about my dependence on carbs than anything else.) 3 -
HeliumIsNoble wrote: »@MsHarryWinston Not going to try and convert you to veganism whatever, but mostly, vegans aren't going to convert you to low-carbing! I think most of us are high carb. Unlike every other diet, the only place I encounter low-carbing vegans is the internet. (Could've knocked me down with a feather when I found out it was even possible to go low carb as a vegan, but maybe that says more about my dependence on carbs than anything else.)
I think low carb was separate to vegan, that's how I took it.
I think veganism without the ethical part is dumb. Unless you actively don't like the taste of all animal products why you doing it if not because of ethics?
Another of my potentially unpopular opinions is not being able to do high impact cardio sucks big ones (I got a hip dysplasia diagnosis yesterday, I'm in the grieving process.........).2 -
To the first one, fair enough. I did post before breakfast. Always a bad idea.VintageFeline wrote: »HeliumIsNoble wrote: »@MsHarryWinston Not going to try and convert you to veganism whatever, but mostly, vegans aren't going to convert you to low-carbing! I think most of us are high carb. Unlike every other diet, the only place I encounter low-carbing vegans is the internet. (Could've knocked me down with a feather when I found out it was even possible to go low carb as a vegan, but maybe that says more about my dependence on carbs than anything else.)
I think low carb was separate to vegan, that's how I took it.
I think veganism with the ethical part is dumb. Unless you actively don't like the taste of all animal products why you doing it if not because of ethics?
Another of my potentially unpopular opinions is not being able to do high impact cardio sucks big ones (I got a hip dysplasia diagnosis yesterday, I'm in the grieving process.........).
Second one: So sorry to hear that. I completely agree with you on the cardio, and getting that diagnosis is absolutely, completely PANTS.
EDIT. Also a bit personally surprised by the popularity of vegan diets for purely health reasons, but it's led to a boom in the availability and diversity of vegan biscuits on the high street, so yay! Also, kind of morally bound to be pleased about people voluntarily reducing their meat consumption, so, also yay.4
This discussion has been closed.
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