Of refeeds and diet breaks

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  • maybyn
    maybyn Posts: 233 Member
    Jumping in to say Arthur Lydiard, one of world's best coaches ever is from NZ.

    @GottaBurnEmAll, I get awful, awful migranes too. Hope you feel better soon and you too, @VintageFeline.

    @Nony_Mouse, whatever's happened to your little competition? :)

    @livingleanlivingclean, yes, echoing what others have said. Hope you find your answers.

    @anubis609, sounds like you had a great weekend (apart from the funeral service of course) and hoping the fires stay away from your neighbourhood!

    A question I thought I'd pose in this thread rather than clutter the other thread with science-y stuff - what is the relationship between lower core body temp and metabolism? Is it a direct relationship (which I thought so)? I.e. lower core body temperature = lower metabolism (or RMR)? Or is it an inverse relationship where lower core temp = higher RMR?
  • Nony_Mouse
    Nony_Mouse Posts: 5,646 Member
    Lower core temp = lower metabolism. Eg, women in their late luteal phase have a higher temp, and a higher RMR. When you diet, your 'resting' temp goes down with adaptive thermogenesis, part of the body conserving energy. So if you have a baseline (and it needs to be done as soon as you wake, before you get out of bed) at maintenance/pre-diet, you can use that to keep an eye on AT. Lyle talks about it in a couple of his podcasts (it's in the refeeds one, for sure).

    As for my competition, I broke it by having a deficit day, when I was meant to be sticking to Fitbit TDEE, but that was after I'd topped out at ovulation anyway. 'Cept now I'm not sure I can remember my top weight...it was 63.1 I think, so if anyone guessed 1.7 kg, they win.
  • Christine_72
    Christine_72 Posts: 16,049 Member
    Nony_Mouse wrote: »
    Bret Contreras did his doctorate here too ;) Who knew NZ was the go to place for these things?!

    It's 29 C in my house :\

    Nony can't you get one of those air conditioners that fit into a window? Would your Landlord mind? It's 11am here and it's already 32 C, it's gonna be shtinker today!!
  • VintageFeline
    VintageFeline Posts: 6,771 Member
    Nony_Mouse wrote: »
    We are big on the sporty stuff, esp. stupid rugby. And yet somehow still manage to be 3rd in the world for obesity.

    Hey, the UK is massively into sports and we too are failing with the obesity thing. I actually think, like with income inequality, there's little middle ground. Either you're like us who really enjoy health and fitness or you're at the other end merrily eating your way through life (and I say that without judgement). Food and thus obesity, in my view, is a symptom of broader societal inequality. A fat society is an unhappy society. Addiction is out of control now too and again a symptom. But this is not the venue for such philosophical debate!

    Sort of related aside. Being from Scotland rugby is huge there too. And football. I went to the same school as Gavin and Scott Hastings (whose pictures were all over the PE building) and my friends older brother went on to play for Scotland too. Oh and it's the same school Chris Hoy went to.
  • Nony_Mouse
    Nony_Mouse Posts: 5,646 Member
    Christine_72 wrote: »
    Nony_Mouse wrote: »
    Bret Contreras did his doctorate here too ;) Who knew NZ was the go to place for these things?!

    It's 29 C in my house :\

    Nony can't you get one of those air conditioners that fit into a window? Would your Landlord mind? It's 11am here and it's already 32 C, it's gonna be shtinker today!!

    I don't think they're even a thing here, and I don't think I have the right kind of windows for them.
  • Christine_72
    Christine_72 Posts: 16,049 Member
    Nony_Mouse wrote: »
    Christine_72 wrote: »
    Nony_Mouse wrote: »
    Bret Contreras did his doctorate here too ;) Who knew NZ was the go to place for these things?!

    It's 29 C in my house :\

    Nony can't you get one of those air conditioners that fit into a window? Would your Landlord mind? It's 11am here and it's already 32 C, it's gonna be shtinker today!!

    I don't think they're even a thing here, and I don't think I have the right kind of windows for them.

    Wow that's so interesting. Your summers are obviously way different to ours. We would swelter where i live with no air conditioners in our homes. They are more of a necessity than a luxury.

    This is what I'm talking about:
    xfdip2j3qieg.jpglh95ifey6nie.jpg

  • maybyn
    maybyn Posts: 233 Member
    anubis609 wrote: »
    maybyn wrote: »
    Jumping in to say Arthur Lydiard, one of world's best coaches ever is from NZ.

    A question I thought I'd pose in this thread rather than clutter the other thread with science-y stuff - what is the relationship between lower core body temp and metabolism? Is it a direct relationship (which I thought so)? I.e. lower core body temperature = lower metabolism (or RMR)? Or is it an inverse relationship where lower core temp = higher RMR?

    Core body temperature tends to track with metabolic rates. It's part of the insane reason why ice baths have become popular > to expose the outer skin to extreme cold and force the body to shiver and raise core temperature to battle the frigid torture and stimulate brown adipose tissue (BAT) to burn.. suggesting the shift of white adipose tissue (WAT) to convert to BAT and also burn off, therefore increasing metabolic rate. NEAT is another example of increasing metabolism via activity: constant physical movement > increase in core temp > increase in metabolism.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5081410/

    Thanks @Nony_Mouse and for the link, @anubis609. I know/believe I've a lower core temp (hands/feet always cold, feeling cold even in summer) and it's been like this since I was a kid. I don't think it's affected my RMR though (according to the dexa scan results I did last time) and I think my RMR result was higher than online calculators? The online calcs mix up RMR and BMR like they are the same thing so I'm never sure where I am versus the general population...
  • maybyn
    maybyn Posts: 233 Member
    Just read the article anubis posted.

    Even that article treats RMR and BMR like one and the same thing when making up components of TDEE and another article I read says that RMR calculation uses Mifflin St. Jeor Equation. If that's the case, then my RMR result is A LOT higher than online estimates but feeling cold is always a problem for me and my assumption has always been that I have a low metabolism. It's a big joke with my family about me always feeling cold and we all get frustrated because I'm always wanting the heater on when everyone else is so hot!
  • GottaBurnEmAll
    GottaBurnEmAll Posts: 7,722 Member
    maybyn wrote: »
    Just read the article anubis posted.

    Even that article treats RMR and BMR like one and the same thing when making up components of TDEE and another article I read says that RMR calculation uses Mifflin St. Jeor Equation. If that's the case, then my RMR result is A LOT higher than online estimates but feeling cold is always a problem for me and my assumption has always been that I have a low metabolism. It's a big joke with my family about me always feeling cold and we all get frustrated because I'm always wanting the heater on when everyone else is so hot!

    I have no idea what my RMR is or anything like that, but I am the butt of similar family jokes. I too am cold, even in summer. Sit in the shade in the summer? Freezing. With chills. It's terrible. The funny thing is that I was like this before I lost weight. It started as soon as I passed menopause. Before that, I was always hot. I went whole winters wearing just a spring jacket. I look back at my former self in horror.
  • maybyn
    maybyn Posts: 233 Member
    Nony_Mouse wrote: »
    As for my competition, I broke it by having a deficit day, when I was meant to be sticking to Fitbit TDEE, but that was after I'd topped out at ovulation anyway. 'Cept now I'm not sure I can remember my top weight...it was 63.1 I think, so if anyone guessed 1.7 kg, they win.

    So I had 2.1kg as my original guess :)

    Anyone closer than that? This is bringing out the competitive streak in me...! lol
  • Nony_Mouse
    Nony_Mouse Posts: 5,646 Member
    I have hideous thermoregulation. I get both too hot and too cold very easily. Like, parents found me hypothermic in my bedroom at age 2. Water, water, water if I'm out on a hot day (or in this damn house!), or I will start to feel sick.

    Net curtain acquired. I hate it with a fiery passion already, but it will hopefully keep the lounge a bit cooler with filtering the sun a bit in the morning. Luckily, the eaves above the north facing French doors (set in both lounge and dining room) provide enough block with the sun as high as it is at the moment, plus the beautiful big tree in the backyard shades the house and deck (come Autumn I am less enamoured with that tree because it drops an endless supply of leaves). Oh, and needed pliers to cut the wire hanging cord thingy for the curtain. I don't have those (I keep meaning to buy a new set to replace the ones I lost). For now I have just cut through the plastic and shoved the hook in, with the surplus cord hanging down.

    It's also possible that Mario is not smart enough to realise the windows behind the net curtain are open...the curtain is a bit long, so I may put my spare dumbbell plates to good use to hold it in place and further aid this disguising.

    Ceiling fan is on Iroquois speed. It helps.
  • Nony_Mouse
    Nony_Mouse Posts: 5,646 Member
    maybyn wrote: »
    Nony_Mouse wrote: »
    As for my competition, I broke it by having a deficit day, when I was meant to be sticking to Fitbit TDEE, but that was after I'd topped out at ovulation anyway. 'Cept now I'm not sure I can remember my top weight...it was 63.1 I think, so if anyone guessed 1.7 kg, they win.

    So I had 2.1kg as my original guess :)

    Anyone closer than that? This is bringing out the competitive streak in me...! lol

    Gawd, how many pages do I need to go back to find everyone's guesses?? You'd think I'd have thought to write them down...
  • heybales
    heybales Posts: 18,842 Member
    Yes, they do intermix BMR and RMR incorrectly.

    Same way far too many totally knowledgeable talking heads will mix LBM and muscle mass, only in context can you discern they meant muscle mass - but they said LBM.
    Worse, some are saying Lean Muscle Mass same as commercials as if that's a thing. (it's not except from butcher)

    BMR is typically found in the morning after an evening sleep in lab when they wake you and put device on you and back to sleep. Truly Basal, not much else going on but perhaps some repair work, but otherwise basic functions of life.

    RMR includes being awake, and the brain uses energy, even if sitting/reclining there relaxed - but not supposed to sleep.

    Nelson & Cunningham (using LBM) and few others are examples of RMR formula.
    Harris, Mifflin, Katch (using LBM) are examples of BMR formula.

    There's usually a 100-200 cal difference higher on RMR.

    So it can make a difference which one you start with.

    Bodpod software used to, still may, throw out RMR results based on LBM, and then estimated TDEE based on perhaps nothing you told the operator.
    Be curious what DEXA uses, I know I looked over several people's test results but not sure I figured it out if it didn't state it.

    RMR test of course gives that.


    Oh, the body temp thing is totally based on comparison to your steady state - so you gotta have avg temp when not in a diet or surplus, or sick, or repairing after lifting, ect, ect.
    So big avg over time based on good data points - through out others.
  • PAV8888
    PAV8888 Posts: 14,238 Member
    edited December 2017
    heybales wrote: »
    Be curious what DEXA uses, I know I looked over several people's test results but not sure I figured it out if it didn't state it.

    Hologic Dexa uses Katch based on LBM, as far as I can tell, and standard activity factors for their estimates.

    In other words it is still an estimate, not a direct measurement (then again so is the hood isn't it? ;-)
  • heybales
    heybales Posts: 18,842 Member
    Did they at least ask you about your activity level?

    I know some, both the BF% and the RMR test - they didn't ask nothing - made an assumption for the TDEE result based on who knows what.
    Pretty sure it wasn't Sherlock level observation going on to guide the answer.
  • Nony_Mouse
    Nony_Mouse Posts: 5,646 Member
    Okay, I've trawled through, @maybyn, you were indeed the closest with 2.1kg.
  • maybyn
    maybyn Posts: 233 Member
    @GottaBurnEmAll, I don't think I'm at peri or menopause stage yet (dunno, no signs or symptoms anyway) but I feel cold all the time. I don't think weight has got anything to do with it too since I've been more or less the same weight since I was 14. It's a real pain, isn't it?!

    @heybales, thanks for the detailed explanation. I understood only half of what you said (sorry!). @PAV8888 is right though. From my dexa report (which I never really looked at closely till now), it specified that the RMR result used the Cunningham formula based on FFM although my RMR appears to be more like 200/300 cals from BMR depending on which formula is used for BMR, which I checked from the SailRabbit website.

    I wasn't asked about my activity level but then again, they didn't give me any TDEE. All the report had was that in order to determine my TDEE, I needed to multiply my RMR by the activity level.

    I've never taken my body temp at anytime so yeah, I guess I don't really know what it is but I know I feel cold a lot more than anyone else in my family.
  • maybyn
    maybyn Posts: 233 Member
    Nony_Mouse wrote: »
    Okay, I've trawled through, @maybyn, you were indeed the closest with 2.1kg.

    :smiley: I feel weird now for bringing it up :blush:
  • Nony_Mouse
    Nony_Mouse Posts: 5,646 Member
    maybyn wrote: »
    Nony_Mouse wrote: »
    Okay, I've trawled through, @maybyn, you were indeed the closest with 2.1kg.

    :smiley: I feel weird now for bringing it up :blush:

    Haha, don't worry, I was meaning to go back and do it anyway :)
  • livingleanlivingclean
    livingleanlivingclean Posts: 11,751 Member
    I feel the cold a lot - I sometimes resort to jumpers even in summer (my husband complains because I'm a scrooge and won't put the air-conditioning on to save money, because I'm comfortable but he's dripping with sweat.) my feet are especially bad. I think it's potentially thyroid related? It is worse when I'm leaner, but even between comps when I've regained fat it hasn't made a difference! I've gone through periods of testing my basal temp and it's always low...

    In regards to RMR testing - how accurate are the little machines you breath in to for 15 minutes (mouth piece, nose pegged, just sitting)? I've had those done twice a few years ago - first one part way through a very long prep, and the second 10 weeks later, after very hard dieting, where I lost 10kgs, and was on very low calories - lots of fat lost, but no doubt a lot of muscle too. My RMR went from 1300 to 800. I reverse dieted after that, and managed to get cals up high quite quickly without regaining much weight...
  • livingleanlivingclean
    livingleanlivingclean Posts: 11,751 Member
    And no answers for me.... The Dr is less interested in my hormone levels at the moment, and more concerned with my blood panels. Apparently I have to be bleeding from somewhere, and she's surprised I haven't noticed anything in terms of blood loss, or fatigue, or dizziness etc. I have a referral for endoscopy/colonoscopy, but due to not having private health insurance it could take a while to see someone.
  • Nony_Mouse
    Nony_Mouse Posts: 5,646 Member
    livingleanlivingclean wrote: »
    And no answers for me.... The Dr is less interested in my hormone levels at the moment, and more concerned with my blood panels. Apparently I have to be bleeding from somewhere, and she's surprised I haven't noticed anything in terms of blood loss, or fatigue, or dizziness etc. I have a referral for endoscopy/colonoscopy, but due to not having private health insurance it could take a while to see someone.

    I'm sorry :( That's really not very helpful, esp. not offering anything at all on the hormone levels.
  • livingleanlivingclean
    livingleanlivingclean Posts: 11,751 Member
    Nony_Mouse wrote: »
    livingleanlivingclean wrote: »
    And no answers for me.... The Dr is less interested in my hormone levels at the moment, and more concerned with my blood panels. Apparently I have to be bleeding from somewhere, and she's surprised I haven't noticed anything in terms of blood loss, or fatigue, or dizziness etc. I have a referral for endoscopy/colonoscopy, but due to not having private health insurance it could take a while to see someone.

    I'm sorry :( That's really not very helpful, esp. not offering anything at all on the hormone levels.

    She says she wants to work out the blood thing first! It's funny... You go in with an expectation of needing to sort something out, then find out there's issues you never knew you had. She is kind of in awe of me having no symptoms of any kind...
  • heybales
    heybales Posts: 18,842 Member
    @maybyn - since you have a LBM figure, the formulas that use that will have better chance at accuracy.
    So Cunningham for RMR, Katch for BMR. The others are assuming avg level of BF% that the study participants had - and you may or likely may not match them.

    But in the end, that is more of a curiosity - because real world results trumps estimates, no matter how good they are.
    And there is a decent amount of calorie space between the RMR/BMR and the TDEE, where the math starts for anything. Or should start.

    Now - perhaps the desire for having a good BMR/RMR figure, is so you can take your real world TDEE figure, and figure out your own personal activity level for different seasons and workout types, no matter what the BMR figure changes to.

    Then instead of picking from 5 rough levels - you look at your experience chart and know:
    Summer and I'm doing half cardio, half lifting - activity factor is 1.71, and current BMR is XXXX - so TDEE is around 1.71XXXX.
    Winter and I'm doing lifting - activity factor is 1.39, and current BMR is .....


    For feeling cold - watch the forums as we enter winter, and you'll likely see what I've always seen.
    "I'm so cold now compared to prior years - I've lost 5 lbs, could that less fat be the reason?!!!"

    Huh, hardly likely, while 5lbs does take up a lot of space, spread around the body a little, but more likely taken from some spots first - means your thermal envelope didn't change that much.

    The likely fact you are eating 1200, don't eat back exercise calories, has caused your body to decide that keeping warm isn't worth the expenditure of very precious calories it needs for more important things, since you'll put on a sweater anyway.

    So considering what I think I recall as your diet history - I'd chalk last winter up to the same thing. Perhaps this winter will be different. Because one of the first things mentioned in the EM2WL group when they up the calories - is feeling warmer when they had been cold before.


    @livingleanlivingclean - As long as the machine is calibrated and you are coming in at right time - very accurate.

    When a unit on truck drives up to the gym for free or cheap readings, or a mall - be wary.

    They know full well that if people hadn't planned - they are invalid readings - no food for at minimum 4 hrs, longer is better because if still digesting food - you are expiring CO2 purely for that reason, not only the metabolizing of fuel.
    And no working out day prior is better too - no higher metabolism dealing with repair or replenishment.

    So going to gym for free/cheap readings means they know they are bad - and likely haven't calibrated their unit, or are about to and want to get some final money in before that process.

    I wouldn't trust a place like that even if they did just do the process and I'm first the next morning. Who knows what other sloppy stuff they'll be doing?

    Now, if gym required signup and gave you sheet for what was required of you - eh, maybe. I'd still ask if they ever went to the mall or some corp business office and ran spur-the-moment tests for people.

    Mine has always been at the start of a VO2max test, so sitting not reclining, and 5 min not 15, and tons of wires hanging off body instead of just nice face mask. But I calm down quick, if HR is indication, so I figure pretty decent even if not true RMR.
    And since at hospital heart unit - very immovable unit.
  • Nony_Mouse
    Nony_Mouse Posts: 5,646 Member
    Yep on the cold related to under-eating. Last proper go around with the ED monster was during summer coming up on 7 years ago, and I was having to take hot baths during the day to warm myself up.
  • mph323
    mph323 Posts: 3,565 Member
    So question, probably ridiculous, but what the hell. My body temperature (core temperature?) is around 97.5. Does being about a degree below average have any significant impact on BMR? I'm always cold, but I've been that way my whole adult life no matter what my weight, so I'm not sure that would apply.

    I read an article a few years ago by some guy who figured the reason we're getting fatter is because civilization has made us too warm. He was advocating going without a coat in winter, sleeping naked with no covers (you'll get used to it!), cold showers, keeping the house temperature cold, stuff like that to speed up the metabolism. According to him, being cold all the time would keep you naturally lean. At the time I actually believed his story, and I still figured if the trade for being thin was spending my life in freezing hell, I'd live with fat, thank you very much. :o
  • maybyn
    maybyn Posts: 233 Member
    @livingleanlivingclean, sorry to hear about the continuing issues. I hope the blood work result does not mean that there is anything serious going on.

    Re RMR, wow, a big difference but it just shows that it can be corrected quickly/easily. About temp, I also thought it had something to do with thyroid and in fact, tried taking OTC iodine supps previously but got scared because I had an adverse reaction to them (my throat felt like it was closing up) so I discontinued that.

    @heybales, thanks for that. You're right, I've never had a "normal" relationship with food so this can certainly be an explanation for the cold thing. The dexa I did was definitely out of curiosity to find out BF% only and never took the results to calculate TDEE. (TBH, never occurred to me to do so until you mentioned it.) Talking about EM2WL, I've been reading all your posts on this and really enjoying them. I've been looking at resetting my metabolism though I don't really know whether I need to but anyhow, trying to find my true TDEE. Not too successful since my TDEE changes each month and I still don't have a normal relationship with food yet but pressing on.
    mph323 wrote: »
    So question, probably ridiculous, but what the hell. My body temperature (core temperature?) is around 97.5. Does being about a degree below average have any significant impact on BMR? I'm always cold, but I've been that way my whole adult life no matter what my weight, so I'm not sure that would apply.

    I read an article a few years ago by some guy who figured the reason we're getting fatter is because civilization has made us too warm. He was advocating going without a coat in winter, sleeping naked with no covers (you'll get used to it!), cold showers, keeping the house temperature cold, stuff like that to speed up the metabolism. According to him, being cold all the time would keep you naturally lean. At the time I actually believed his story, and I still figured if the trade for being thin was spending my life in freezing hell, I'd live with fat, thank you very much. :o

    That's the question I've been asking too! I've also been that way throughout my life but heybales gave a possible explanation above.
  • Nony_Mouse
    Nony_Mouse Posts: 5,646 Member
    mph323 wrote: »

    I read an article a few years ago by some guy who figured the reason we're getting fatter is because civilization has made us too warm. He was advocating going without a coat in winter, sleeping naked with no covers (you'll get used to it!), cold showers, keeping the house temperature cold, stuff like that to speed up the metabolism. According to him, being cold all the time would keep you naturally lean. At the time I actually believed his story, and I still figured if the trade for being thin was spending my life in freezing hell, I'd live with fat, thank you very much. :o

    Lolz, conveniently ignores the fact that we evolved in sub-Saharan Africa, harnessed fire a good 2 million years ago, and have been making clothes and coverings for a goodly long time too. Those wooly mammoths were good for more than food! (you can also make a nice wee hut from their ribs)

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