Of refeeds and diet breaks
Replies
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collectingblues wrote: »Yay for running! How did it feel?
It was awesome!!!!!!!!! Like no 'ugh, why am I doing this??'. Usually when I start running again, and when I originally took it up, I use C25K to get me back up to speed, and I have those first few weeks of 'yay, running!' because they're short stints, then the 'oh god, why??' for a bit as I get used to longer stints, then back to 'yay, running!'. I have a fairly firm policy that running is something I do because I like it (which is so weird to me even now), so once I'm back to being able to run consistently for 30-45 mins, if I start a run and am just not feeling the love, I will switch to walking. I'm probably only going to run a couple of times a week, with fitting it between strength training and hiking, but that's fine.
In other news, I should have just listened to my body. Down another 300g today. Possibly a smidge dehydrated, but I should also be sporting a little water weight from training and/or running, though not at all sore from either of those (may just not have set in yet). Guess I should eat more? I am second week luteal, so that's probably justification enough.
Cat has been set free. He should ideally be in at least one more day, because he is still limping, just not as badly. But he was antsy and agitated, so I figured he's better off doing his zen hunting thing, then curling up somewhere for a nap, than pacing and howling inside.
Fishy may need to be set free in the other way today. That's never an easy task. I will give her one more medicated bath and change out some more tank water, but I don't have high hopes.4 -
MegaMooseEsq wrote: »MegaMooseEsq wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »MegaMooseEsq wrote: »Hopefully this isn't too tangential to the overall re-feed/diet break theme - I've been planning the second half of my weight-loss process and am seriously considering trying out a feast-fast protocol. I'm already eating at or above maintenance 1-2 days a week, and am curious to see the effect of going to one day at a surplus followed by a fasting day. I'm hoping this will keep up whatever benefits I've enjoyed from those maintenance/surplus days, plus it would allow me a "free" day once a week AND I wouldn't have to reduce my calories on deficit days from where I am right now (about 1500/day) but I would be able to lower my overall average, which is going to be necessary if I want to hit my goal weight by the end of next year (which should be fairly doable - I've got 34 lbs to go to hit my goal at the top of my "normal" BMI range).
I've really enjoyed lurking on this thread, but so far haven't considered myself as a candidate for a diet break both because of my higher BMI (I'll hit "overweight" in January, most likely) and because I just haven't experienced any noticeably negative physical or mental side-effects of sustained deficit, which I'm currently crediting largely to those regular maintenance/surplus days. That said, I've still been in an overall deficit for six and a half months now and am aiming for another seven and a half before I start to raise calories again, so I'd like to be ahead of the game if a break becomes beneficial.
Of course, the consensus seems to be that you want to take the break *before* you think you need it, so I'm not sure how that's going to work. Hopefully this thread will still be here by then.
Not remotely tangential!! And a hell of a lot more on topic than a lot of the stuff in here
(though we have established that cats and dogs are never a derail).
I'm definitely in the camp of taking a break before you need it, so you don't get to that point. That down regulation of hormones is happening, whether you can feel it or not. Though, your current strategy is probably staving them off more than if you were at a straight 24/7 deficit.
I don't see why your strategy wouldn't work, so long as the fast day is sustainable for you (by fast, do you mean all out fast, or as in like 5:2 where you're doing something like 500 cals on those days?). I'd still consider working full diet breaks into your plan though, especially as you get closer to 'normal' BMI range.
Puppies and kitties are always on point! I hadn’t thought of it that way, but I guess I was thinking of starting with something like the 5:2 diet - my spouse and I have standing movie night Sundays at 8:30, so I figured I’d try fasting until then and eating a normal dinner. The goal might be to move to a full day fast, but maybe not. I’m going to have to skim the thread again to strategize on where to fit a full break - it’s one thing to slot one in when one is struggling, but I’m not quite sure how best to plan a preemptive strike.
Feast/fast eating patterns are fine as long as your weekly average is where you planned it to be and aren't jarred by post-feast morning weigh-ins. It's part of the undulating strategy I had in mind when mentioning it previously. Some days will be higher, other days might be lower - or in the case of fasting, none at all. There are some studies that support ADF or alternating very low calorie days to help insulin sensitivity.
Psychologically, it has an added effect that not everyday needs to be static or in the worse case scenario, a feasting period. Aadam Ali's phrase that stuck with me is "fasting is like a refeed for the mind."
http://physiqonomics.com/philosophies-dieting-fasting-spike-days/
I've very used to post-surplus fluctuations at this point, so I'm not concerned about that aspect, and I've been averaging bimonthly since the spring because it just makes more sense with my life. And that link was exactly what I was reading earlier today - I've been following Ali for a while but hadn't run across that particular subject before, possibly because I've gotten so tired of the IF chatter that I kind of tune it out. I was one of those teenagers who was so against being trendy that I was basically controlled by trends more than the "cool" kids - I still have to fight the impulse to dismiss things simply because they're trendy.
To your last statement, fasting has become a bit of a trend lately, at least within the zero carb/low carb/keto circles. IF has been around since leangains, so that's not too bad. Though, extended fasting for weight loss is completely petarded if that's the only and primary goal for doing a fast >24 hours. To sum up past debates, autophagy is great and all but no one truly understands its mechanisms or realizes that exercise is also considered fasting in fast forward, and that the true rewards of fasting induced autophagy come from the refeed/feasting period afterwards, which should be longer than the fasting period.
Anywho, before I get too off topic, you're familiar with Aadam's philosophy regarding nutrition so I think following his advice is reasonable. Not just because he's my international spirit animal either. Lol.Because it’s an intentional diet break, eating at maintence you need to log to ensure this is happening. Otherwise you could go too far under/over? I guess I was thinking that not logging helps in the psychological break of living in a calorie deficit, which I thought were included in the benefits of a “diet break”...
And just to address this, the answer is almost always "it depends." If you are prioritizing protein and completely comfortable with your ability to gauge food portions according to their appropriate size as it relates to your goals of body composition and overall health, and are able to truly eat to satiety (read: less hungry; not stuffed to capacity), then you're perfectly capable of achieving maintenance calories without logging.
However, if you are fairly new to tracking energy, have dysregulated satiety signaling, and are driven by the hedonic process of eating for the love of it, then not tracking leaves a large room for failure and will certainly be the reason why anyone says "I tried a diet break and I got fatter when it was done."
You can also compromise. Track maintenance for a few days into the diet break, and once you have a rough idea of how much food to eat, then repeat it for the next week or so. Measurements, scale weight, visual assessment, etc will be your guide as far as being on track. But you'll have gained a good natural sense for adequate food intake without developing the OCD tendencies many have acquired and/or learned to live with...maybe even love?5 -
@anubis609 Thanks, I think I will as you suggest do first few days logging on maintenance and then not. I'd like to get a feel for what those calories look like. While I don't view logging as a chore, more as a tool, whenever I get to maintenance I'd like to not rely on logging as much. Time will tell I reckon. Thanks everyone for the input. Cheers!3
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MegaMooseEsq wrote: »MegaMooseEsq wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »MegaMooseEsq wrote: »Hopefully this isn't too tangential to the overall re-feed/diet break theme - I've been planning the second half of my weight-loss process and am seriously considering trying out a feast-fast protocol. I'm already eating at or above maintenance 1-2 days a week, and am curious to see the effect of going to one day at a surplus followed by a fasting day. I'm hoping this will keep up whatever benefits I've enjoyed from those maintenance/surplus days, plus it would allow me a "free" day once a week AND I wouldn't have to reduce my calories on deficit days from where I am right now (about 1500/day) but I would be able to lower my overall average, which is going to be necessary if I want to hit my goal weight by the end of next year (which should be fairly doable - I've got 34 lbs to go to hit my goal at the top of my "normal" BMI range).
I've really enjoyed lurking on this thread, but so far haven't considered myself as a candidate for a diet break both because of my higher BMI (I'll hit "overweight" in January, most likely) and because I just haven't experienced any noticeably negative physical or mental side-effects of sustained deficit, which I'm currently crediting largely to those regular maintenance/surplus days. That said, I've still been in an overall deficit for six and a half months now and am aiming for another seven and a half before I start to raise calories again, so I'd like to be ahead of the game if a break becomes beneficial.
Of course, the consensus seems to be that you want to take the break *before* you think you need it, so I'm not sure how that's going to work. Hopefully this thread will still be here by then.
Not remotely tangential!! And a hell of a lot more on topic than a lot of the stuff in here (though we have established that cats and dogs are never a derail).
I'm definitely in the camp of taking a break before you need it, so you don't get to that point. That down regulation of hormones is happening, whether you can feel it or not. Though, your current strategy is probably staving them off more than if you were at a straight 24/7 deficit.
I don't see why your strategy wouldn't work, so long as the fast day is sustainable for you (by fast, do you mean all out fast, or as in like 5:2 where you're doing something like 500 cals on those days?). I'd still consider working full diet breaks into your plan though, especially as you get closer to 'normal' BMI range.
Puppies and kitties are always on point! I hadn’t thought of it that way, but I guess I was thinking of starting with something like the 5:2 diet - my spouse and I have standing movie night Sundays at 8:30, so I figured I’d try fasting until then and eating a normal dinner. The goal might be to move to a full day fast, but maybe not. I’m going to have to skim the thread again to strategize on where to fit a full break - it’s one thing to slot one in when one is struggling, but I’m not quite sure how best to plan a preemptive strike.
Feast/fast eating patterns are fine as long as your weekly average is where you planned it to be and aren't jarred by post-feast morning weigh-ins. It's part of the undulating strategy I had in mind when mentioning it previously. Some days will be higher, other days might be lower - or in the case of fasting, none at all. There are some studies that support ADF or alternating very low calorie days to help insulin sensitivity.
Psychologically, it has an added effect that not everyday needs to be static or in the worse case scenario, a feasting period. Aadam Ali's phrase that stuck with me is "fasting is like a refeed for the mind."
http://physiqonomics.com/philosophies-dieting-fasting-spike-days/
I've very used to post-surplus fluctuations at this point, so I'm not concerned about that aspect, and I've been averaging bimonthly since the spring because it just makes more sense with my life. And that link was exactly what I was reading earlier today - I've been following Ali for a while but hadn't run across that particular subject before, possibly because I've gotten so tired of the IF chatter that I kind of tune it out. I was one of those teenagers who was so against being trendy that I was basically controlled by trends more than the "cool" kids - I still have to fight the impulse to dismiss things simply because they're trendy.
To your last statement, fasting has become a bit of a trend lately, at least within the zero carb/low carb/keto circles. IF has been around since leangains, so that's not too bad. Though, extended fasting for weight loss is completely petarded if that's the only and primary goal for doing a fast >24 hours. To sum up past debates, autophagy is great and all but no one truly understands its mechanisms or realizes that exercise is also considered fasting in fast forward, and that the true rewards of fasting induced autophagy come from the refeed/feasting period afterwards, which should be longer than the fasting period.
Anywho, before I get too off topic, you're familiar with Aadam's philosophy regarding nutrition so I think following his advice is reasonable. Not just because he's my international spirit animal either. Lol.Because it’s an intentional diet break, eating at maintence you need to log to ensure this is happening. Otherwise you could go too far under/over? I guess I was thinking that not logging helps in the psychological break of living in a calorie deficit, which I thought were included in the benefits of a “diet break”...
And just to address this, the answer is almost always "it depends." If you are prioritizing protein and completely comfortable with your ability to gauge food portions according to their appropriate size as it relates to your goals of body composition and overall health, and are able to truly eat to satiety (read: less hungry; not stuffed to capacity), then you're perfectly capable of achieving maintenance calories without logging.
However, if you are fairly new to tracking energy, have dysregulated satiety signaling, and are driven by the hedonic process of eating for the love of it, then not tracking leaves a large room for failure and will certainly be the reason why anyone says "I tried a diet break and I got fatter when it was done."
You can also compromise. Track maintenance for a few days into the diet break, and once you have a rough idea of how much food to eat, then repeat it for the next week or so. Measurements, scale weight, visual assessment, etc will be your guide as far as being on track. But you'll have gained a good natural sense for adequate food intake without developing the OCD tendencies many have acquired and/or learned to live with...maybe even love?
Haha, so true! I accidently left my fitbit on the charger the day before yesterday and was running around shopping all afternoon. When it was time to eat I started getting anxious about how many calories I needed to eat back for exercise, and maybe I should just go with my minimum weight loss calories, but then I might be under-eating, blah, blah. I think I'm going to try leaving the fitbit off the week between Christmas and New Years and try to conquer a little bit of that dependence. I'll just log exercise directly into the tracker instead of going by steps. Interesting experiment.
I couldn't sleep last night and had a small insight. I've been obsessing on the amount of fat I have around my middle vs. the last time I was this weight. Except that was pre-breast reduction, and about 6 lbs. of that weight was in my breasts. I was probably about 5 lbs. underweight at that point, even though I was still in a healthy BMI range. That makes sense, right? People were taking me aside and telling me I looked emaciated, and was I sick? Nobody's doing that now. I'm feeling a lot more confident about maintenance and recomp today, maybe the occasional sleepless night should be built into my schedule
4 -
MegaMooseEsq wrote: »MegaMooseEsq wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »MegaMooseEsq wrote: »Hopefully this isn't too tangential to the overall re-feed/diet break theme - I've been planning the second half of my weight-loss process and am seriously considering trying out a feast-fast protocol. I'm already eating at or above maintenance 1-2 days a week, and am curious to see the effect of going to one day at a surplus followed by a fasting day. I'm hoping this will keep up whatever benefits I've enjoyed from those maintenance/surplus days, plus it would allow me a "free" day once a week AND I wouldn't have to reduce my calories on deficit days from where I am right now (about 1500/day) but I would be able to lower my overall average, which is going to be necessary if I want to hit my goal weight by the end of next year (which should be fairly doable - I've got 34 lbs to go to hit my goal at the top of my "normal" BMI range).
I've really enjoyed lurking on this thread, but so far haven't considered myself as a candidate for a diet break both because of my higher BMI (I'll hit "overweight" in January, most likely) and because I just haven't experienced any noticeably negative physical or mental side-effects of sustained deficit, which I'm currently crediting largely to those regular maintenance/surplus days. That said, I've still been in an overall deficit for six and a half months now and am aiming for another seven and a half before I start to raise calories again, so I'd like to be ahead of the game if a break becomes beneficial.
Of course, the consensus seems to be that you want to take the break *before* you think you need it, so I'm not sure how that's going to work. Hopefully this thread will still be here by then.
Not remotely tangential!! And a hell of a lot more on topic than a lot of the stuff in here (though we have established that cats and dogs are never a derail).
I'm definitely in the camp of taking a break before you need it, so you don't get to that point. That down regulation of hormones is happening, whether you can feel it or not. Though, your current strategy is probably staving them off more than if you were at a straight 24/7 deficit.
I don't see why your strategy wouldn't work, so long as the fast day is sustainable for you (by fast, do you mean all out fast, or as in like 5:2 where you're doing something like 500 cals on those days?). I'd still consider working full diet breaks into your plan though, especially as you get closer to 'normal' BMI range.
Puppies and kitties are always on point! I hadn’t thought of it that way, but I guess I was thinking of starting with something like the 5:2 diet - my spouse and I have standing movie night Sundays at 8:30, so I figured I’d try fasting until then and eating a normal dinner. The goal might be to move to a full day fast, but maybe not. I’m going to have to skim the thread again to strategize on where to fit a full break - it’s one thing to slot one in when one is struggling, but I’m not quite sure how best to plan a preemptive strike.
Feast/fast eating patterns are fine as long as your weekly average is where you planned it to be and aren't jarred by post-feast morning weigh-ins. It's part of the undulating strategy I had in mind when mentioning it previously. Some days will be higher, other days might be lower - or in the case of fasting, none at all. There are some studies that support ADF or alternating very low calorie days to help insulin sensitivity.
Psychologically, it has an added effect that not everyday needs to be static or in the worse case scenario, a feasting period. Aadam Ali's phrase that stuck with me is "fasting is like a refeed for the mind."
http://physiqonomics.com/philosophies-dieting-fasting-spike-days/
I've very used to post-surplus fluctuations at this point, so I'm not concerned about that aspect, and I've been averaging bimonthly since the spring because it just makes more sense with my life. And that link was exactly what I was reading earlier today - I've been following Ali for a while but hadn't run across that particular subject before, possibly because I've gotten so tired of the IF chatter that I kind of tune it out. I was one of those teenagers who was so against being trendy that I was basically controlled by trends more than the "cool" kids - I still have to fight the impulse to dismiss things simply because they're trendy.
To your last statement, fasting has become a bit of a trend lately, at least within the zero carb/low carb/keto circles. IF has been around since leangains, so that's not too bad. Though, extended fasting for weight loss is completely petarded if that's the only and primary goal for doing a fast >24 hours. To sum up past debates, autophagy is great and all but no one truly understands its mechanisms or realizes that exercise is also considered fasting in fast forward, and that the true rewards of fasting induced autophagy come from the refeed/feasting period afterwards, which should be longer than the fasting period.
Anywho, before I get too off topic, you're familiar with Aadam's philosophy regarding nutrition so I think following his advice is reasonable. Not just because he's my international spirit animal either. Lol.Because it’s an intentional diet break, eating at maintence you need to log to ensure this is happening. Otherwise you could go too far under/over? I guess I was thinking that not logging helps in the psychological break of living in a calorie deficit, which I thought were included in the benefits of a “diet break”...
And just to address this, the answer is almost always "it depends." If you are prioritizing protein and completely comfortable with your ability to gauge food portions according to their appropriate size as it relates to your goals of body composition and overall health, and are able to truly eat to satiety (read: less hungry; not stuffed to capacity), then you're perfectly capable of achieving maintenance calories without logging.
However, if you are fairly new to tracking energy, have dysregulated satiety signaling, and are driven by the hedonic process of eating for the love of it, then not tracking leaves a large room for failure and will certainly be the reason why anyone says "I tried a diet break and I got fatter when it was done."
You can also compromise. Track maintenance for a few days into the diet break, and once you have a rough idea of how much food to eat, then repeat it for the next week or so. Measurements, scale weight, visual assessment, etc will be your guide as far as being on track. But you'll have gained a good natural sense for adequate food intake without developing the OCD tendencies many have acquired and/or learned to live with...maybe even love?
Haha, so true! I accidently left my fitbit on the charger the day before yesterday and was running around shopping all afternoon. When it was time to eat I started getting anxious about how many calories I needed to eat back for exercise, and maybe I should just go with my minimum weight loss calories, but then I might be under-eating, blah, blah. I think I'm going to try leaving the fitbit off the week between Christmas and New Years and try to conquer a little bit of that dependence. I'll just log exercise directly into the tracker instead of going by steps. Interesting experiment.
I couldn't sleep last night and had a small insight. I've been obsessing on the amount of fat I have around my middle vs. the last time I was this weight. Except that was pre-breast reduction, and about 6 lbs. of that weight was in my breasts. I was probably about 5 lbs. underweight at that point, even though I was still in a healthy BMI range. That makes sense, right? People were taking me aside and telling me I looked emaciated, and was I sick? Nobody's doing that now. I'm feeling a lot more confident about maintenance and recomp today, maybe the occasional sleepless night should be built into my schedule
Total sense. Tis why I know not to go any lower (are you listening, body?). According to BMI, I could lose another 8 kg. Uh, no. Even another 3 off me and I am too thin, and that was with vastly different body comp to what I have now (read, where were your muscles, Nony?). I'm pretty much at the limit of where I should be I think, I could maybe go another kg if it came off lower body. It may prove to be that I just can't get my thighs and lower belly to where I want them without upper body being all bones. Current BMI is 21.5.2 -
Less than two hours after breakfast, hungry. I'm going to be smarter about this today, and go for lower cal higher volume snacks, rather than the 50 cal snack balls I thought would be enough to curb it yesterday.
Gave fishy an extended med bath, and her orange stripe is back and she's upright again. Where there's life, there's hope!5 -
MegaMooseEsq wrote: »MegaMooseEsq wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »MegaMooseEsq wrote: »Hopefully this isn't too tangential to the overall re-feed/diet break theme - I've been planning the second half of my weight-loss process and am seriously considering trying out a feast-fast protocol. I'm already eating at or above maintenance 1-2 days a week, and am curious to see the effect of going to one day at a surplus followed by a fasting day. I'm hoping this will keep up whatever benefits I've enjoyed from those maintenance/surplus days, plus it would allow me a "free" day once a week AND I wouldn't have to reduce my calories on deficit days from where I am right now (about 1500/day) but I would be able to lower my overall average, which is going to be necessary if I want to hit my goal weight by the end of next year (which should be fairly doable - I've got 34 lbs to go to hit my goal at the top of my "normal" BMI range).
I've really enjoyed lurking on this thread, but so far haven't considered myself as a candidate for a diet break both because of my higher BMI (I'll hit "overweight" in January, most likely) and because I just haven't experienced any noticeably negative physical or mental side-effects of sustained deficit, which I'm currently crediting largely to those regular maintenance/surplus days. That said, I've still been in an overall deficit for six and a half months now and am aiming for another seven and a half before I start to raise calories again, so I'd like to be ahead of the game if a break becomes beneficial.
Of course, the consensus seems to be that you want to take the break *before* you think you need it, so I'm not sure how that's going to work. Hopefully this thread will still be here by then.
Not remotely tangential!! And a hell of a lot more on topic than a lot of the stuff in here (though we have established that cats and dogs are never a derail).
I'm definitely in the camp of taking a break before you need it, so you don't get to that point. That down regulation of hormones is happening, whether you can feel it or not. Though, your current strategy is probably staving them off more than if you were at a straight 24/7 deficit.
I don't see why your strategy wouldn't work, so long as the fast day is sustainable for you (by fast, do you mean all out fast, or as in like 5:2 where you're doing something like 500 cals on those days?). I'd still consider working full diet breaks into your plan though, especially as you get closer to 'normal' BMI range.
Puppies and kitties are always on point! I hadn’t thought of it that way, but I guess I was thinking of starting with something like the 5:2 diet - my spouse and I have standing movie night Sundays at 8:30, so I figured I’d try fasting until then and eating a normal dinner. The goal might be to move to a full day fast, but maybe not. I’m going to have to skim the thread again to strategize on where to fit a full break - it’s one thing to slot one in when one is struggling, but I’m not quite sure how best to plan a preemptive strike.
Feast/fast eating patterns are fine as long as your weekly average is where you planned it to be and aren't jarred by post-feast morning weigh-ins. It's part of the undulating strategy I had in mind when mentioning it previously. Some days will be higher, other days might be lower - or in the case of fasting, none at all. There are some studies that support ADF or alternating very low calorie days to help insulin sensitivity.
Psychologically, it has an added effect that not everyday needs to be static or in the worse case scenario, a feasting period. Aadam Ali's phrase that stuck with me is "fasting is like a refeed for the mind."
http://physiqonomics.com/philosophies-dieting-fasting-spike-days/
I've very used to post-surplus fluctuations at this point, so I'm not concerned about that aspect, and I've been averaging bimonthly since the spring because it just makes more sense with my life. And that link was exactly what I was reading earlier today - I've been following Ali for a while but hadn't run across that particular subject before, possibly because I've gotten so tired of the IF chatter that I kind of tune it out. I was one of those teenagers who was so against being trendy that I was basically controlled by trends more than the "cool" kids - I still have to fight the impulse to dismiss things simply because they're trendy.
To your last statement, fasting has become a bit of a trend lately, at least within the zero carb/low carb/keto circles. IF has been around since leangains, so that's not too bad. Though, extended fasting for weight loss is completely petarded if that's the only and primary goal for doing a fast >24 hours. To sum up past debates, autophagy is great and all but no one truly understands its mechanisms or realizes that exercise is also considered fasting in fast forward, and that the true rewards of fasting induced autophagy come from the refeed/feasting period afterwards, which should be longer than the fasting period.
Anywho, before I get too off topic, you're familiar with Aadam's philosophy regarding nutrition so I think following his advice is reasonable. Not just because he's my international spirit animal either. Lol.
Thank you for the feed back - I really appreciate it! I've been doing some more reading and have found a few sources (including Aadam) mentioning that women should be cautious when it comes to fasting, so I think I'm definitely going to start with 14-16 hours and see how that suits. It's a little more aggressive than they recommend, but considering I already do 12 hours on post "feast" days not infrequently, I think adding a few hours on top should be fine. We'll see. This is the first time I've seen concerns about women fasting - presumably Islamic women have managed it fine for some time, so I'm not losing my mind, but I do appreciate the need for caution.
Looking ahead, I think late March/early April will make the most sense for a diet break - my birthday and my spouse's birthday are both in there, and we often do a joint party or two around that time anyhow. If all goes according to my hopefully conservative estimates, I should in the mid-150s at that point, less than 20 pounds over the top end of normal BMI, so that seems reasonable.
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MegaMooseEsq wrote: »MegaMooseEsq wrote: »MegaMooseEsq wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »MegaMooseEsq wrote: »Hopefully this isn't too tangential to the overall re-feed/diet break theme - I've been planning the second half of my weight-loss process and am seriously considering trying out a feast-fast protocol. I'm already eating at or above maintenance 1-2 days a week, and am curious to see the effect of going to one day at a surplus followed by a fasting day. I'm hoping this will keep up whatever benefits I've enjoyed from those maintenance/surplus days, plus it would allow me a "free" day once a week AND I wouldn't have to reduce my calories on deficit days from where I am right now (about 1500/day) but I would be able to lower my overall average, which is going to be necessary if I want to hit my goal weight by the end of next year (which should be fairly doable - I've got 34 lbs to go to hit my goal at the top of my "normal" BMI range).
I've really enjoyed lurking on this thread, but so far haven't considered myself as a candidate for a diet break both because of my higher BMI (I'll hit "overweight" in January, most likely) and because I just haven't experienced any noticeably negative physical or mental side-effects of sustained deficit, which I'm currently crediting largely to those regular maintenance/surplus days. That said, I've still been in an overall deficit for six and a half months now and am aiming for another seven and a half before I start to raise calories again, so I'd like to be ahead of the game if a break becomes beneficial.
Of course, the consensus seems to be that you want to take the break *before* you think you need it, so I'm not sure how that's going to work. Hopefully this thread will still be here by then.
Not remotely tangential!! And a hell of a lot more on topic than a lot of the stuff in here (though we have established that cats and dogs are never a derail).
I'm definitely in the camp of taking a break before you need it, so you don't get to that point. That down regulation of hormones is happening, whether you can feel it or not. Though, your current strategy is probably staving them off more than if you were at a straight 24/7 deficit.
I don't see why your strategy wouldn't work, so long as the fast day is sustainable for you (by fast, do you mean all out fast, or as in like 5:2 where you're doing something like 500 cals on those days?). I'd still consider working full diet breaks into your plan though, especially as you get closer to 'normal' BMI range.
Puppies and kitties are always on point! I hadn’t thought of it that way, but I guess I was thinking of starting with something like the 5:2 diet - my spouse and I have standing movie night Sundays at 8:30, so I figured I’d try fasting until then and eating a normal dinner. The goal might be to move to a full day fast, but maybe not. I’m going to have to skim the thread again to strategize on where to fit a full break - it’s one thing to slot one in when one is struggling, but I’m not quite sure how best to plan a preemptive strike.
Feast/fast eating patterns are fine as long as your weekly average is where you planned it to be and aren't jarred by post-feast morning weigh-ins. It's part of the undulating strategy I had in mind when mentioning it previously. Some days will be higher, other days might be lower - or in the case of fasting, none at all. There are some studies that support ADF or alternating very low calorie days to help insulin sensitivity.
Psychologically, it has an added effect that not everyday needs to be static or in the worse case scenario, a feasting period. Aadam Ali's phrase that stuck with me is "fasting is like a refeed for the mind."
http://physiqonomics.com/philosophies-dieting-fasting-spike-days/
I've very used to post-surplus fluctuations at this point, so I'm not concerned about that aspect, and I've been averaging bimonthly since the spring because it just makes more sense with my life. And that link was exactly what I was reading earlier today - I've been following Ali for a while but hadn't run across that particular subject before, possibly because I've gotten so tired of the IF chatter that I kind of tune it out. I was one of those teenagers who was so against being trendy that I was basically controlled by trends more than the "cool" kids - I still have to fight the impulse to dismiss things simply because they're trendy.
To your last statement, fasting has become a bit of a trend lately, at least within the zero carb/low carb/keto circles. IF has been around since leangains, so that's not too bad. Though, extended fasting for weight loss is completely petarded if that's the only and primary goal for doing a fast >24 hours. To sum up past debates, autophagy is great and all but no one truly understands its mechanisms or realizes that exercise is also considered fasting in fast forward, and that the true rewards of fasting induced autophagy come from the refeed/feasting period afterwards, which should be longer than the fasting period.
Anywho, before I get too off topic, you're familiar with Aadam's philosophy regarding nutrition so I think following his advice is reasonable. Not just because he's my international spirit animal either. Lol.
Thank you for the feed back - I really appreciate it! I've been doing some more reading and have found a few sources (including Aadam) mentioning that women should be cautious when it comes to fasting, so I think I'm definitely going to start with 14-16 hours and see how that suits. It's a little more aggressive than they recommend, but considering I already do 12 hours on post "feast" days not infrequently, I think adding a few hours on top should be fine. We'll see. This is the first time I've seen concerns about women fasting - presumably Islamic women have managed it fine for some time, so I'm not losing my mind, but I do appreciate the need for caution.
Looking ahead, I think late March/early April will make the most sense for a diet break - my birthday and my spouse's birthday are both in there, and we often do a joint party or two around that time anyhow. If all goes according to my hopefully conservative estimates, I should in the mid-150s at that point, less than 20 pounds over the top end of normal BMI, so that seems reasonable.
1) I can eat for you in the hours you're not eating please?
2) women have been fasting since ever, and managed to survive. Granted, it wasn't deliberate fasting, but given that Homo sapiens sapiens is still here, it doesn't seem to have done any major damage
And a personal 3) is 11am too early for lunch?? Actually, by the time my potato cooks, it will be after 11.30, so I think that's close a damn nuf.0 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »MegaMooseEsq wrote: »MegaMooseEsq wrote: »MegaMooseEsq wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »MegaMooseEsq wrote: »Hopefully this isn't too tangential to the overall re-feed/diet break theme - I've been planning the second half of my weight-loss process and am seriously considering trying out a feast-fast protocol. I'm already eating at or above maintenance 1-2 days a week, and am curious to see the effect of going to one day at a surplus followed by a fasting day. I'm hoping this will keep up whatever benefits I've enjoyed from those maintenance/surplus days, plus it would allow me a "free" day once a week AND I wouldn't have to reduce my calories on deficit days from where I am right now (about 1500/day) but I would be able to lower my overall average, which is going to be necessary if I want to hit my goal weight by the end of next year (which should be fairly doable - I've got 34 lbs to go to hit my goal at the top of my "normal" BMI range).
I've really enjoyed lurking on this thread, but so far haven't considered myself as a candidate for a diet break both because of my higher BMI (I'll hit "overweight" in January, most likely) and because I just haven't experienced any noticeably negative physical or mental side-effects of sustained deficit, which I'm currently crediting largely to those regular maintenance/surplus days. That said, I've still been in an overall deficit for six and a half months now and am aiming for another seven and a half before I start to raise calories again, so I'd like to be ahead of the game if a break becomes beneficial.
Of course, the consensus seems to be that you want to take the break *before* you think you need it, so I'm not sure how that's going to work. Hopefully this thread will still be here by then.
Not remotely tangential!! And a hell of a lot more on topic than a lot of the stuff in here (though we have established that cats and dogs are never a derail).
I'm definitely in the camp of taking a break before you need it, so you don't get to that point. That down regulation of hormones is happening, whether you can feel it or not. Though, your current strategy is probably staving them off more than if you were at a straight 24/7 deficit.
I don't see why your strategy wouldn't work, so long as the fast day is sustainable for you (by fast, do you mean all out fast, or as in like 5:2 where you're doing something like 500 cals on those days?). I'd still consider working full diet breaks into your plan though, especially as you get closer to 'normal' BMI range.
Puppies and kitties are always on point! I hadn’t thought of it that way, but I guess I was thinking of starting with something like the 5:2 diet - my spouse and I have standing movie night Sundays at 8:30, so I figured I’d try fasting until then and eating a normal dinner. The goal might be to move to a full day fast, but maybe not. I’m going to have to skim the thread again to strategize on where to fit a full break - it’s one thing to slot one in when one is struggling, but I’m not quite sure how best to plan a preemptive strike.
Feast/fast eating patterns are fine as long as your weekly average is where you planned it to be and aren't jarred by post-feast morning weigh-ins. It's part of the undulating strategy I had in mind when mentioning it previously. Some days will be higher, other days might be lower - or in the case of fasting, none at all. There are some studies that support ADF or alternating very low calorie days to help insulin sensitivity.
Psychologically, it has an added effect that not everyday needs to be static or in the worse case scenario, a feasting period. Aadam Ali's phrase that stuck with me is "fasting is like a refeed for the mind."
http://physiqonomics.com/philosophies-dieting-fasting-spike-days/
I've very used to post-surplus fluctuations at this point, so I'm not concerned about that aspect, and I've been averaging bimonthly since the spring because it just makes more sense with my life. And that link was exactly what I was reading earlier today - I've been following Ali for a while but hadn't run across that particular subject before, possibly because I've gotten so tired of the IF chatter that I kind of tune it out. I was one of those teenagers who was so against being trendy that I was basically controlled by trends more than the "cool" kids - I still have to fight the impulse to dismiss things simply because they're trendy.
To your last statement, fasting has become a bit of a trend lately, at least within the zero carb/low carb/keto circles. IF has been around since leangains, so that's not too bad. Though, extended fasting for weight loss is completely petarded if that's the only and primary goal for doing a fast >24 hours. To sum up past debates, autophagy is great and all but no one truly understands its mechanisms or realizes that exercise is also considered fasting in fast forward, and that the true rewards of fasting induced autophagy come from the refeed/feasting period afterwards, which should be longer than the fasting period.
Anywho, before I get too off topic, you're familiar with Aadam's philosophy regarding nutrition so I think following his advice is reasonable. Not just because he's my international spirit animal either. Lol.
Thank you for the feed back - I really appreciate it! I've been doing some more reading and have found a few sources (including Aadam) mentioning that women should be cautious when it comes to fasting, so I think I'm definitely going to start with 14-16 hours and see how that suits. It's a little more aggressive than they recommend, but considering I already do 12 hours on post "feast" days not infrequently, I think adding a few hours on top should be fine. We'll see. This is the first time I've seen concerns about women fasting - presumably Islamic women have managed it fine for some time, so I'm not losing my mind, but I do appreciate the need for caution.
Looking ahead, I think late March/early April will make the most sense for a diet break - my birthday and my spouse's birthday are both in there, and we often do a joint party or two around that time anyhow. If all goes according to my hopefully conservative estimates, I should in the mid-150s at that point, less than 20 pounds over the top end of normal BMI, so that seems reasonable.
1) I can eat for you in the hours you're not eating please?
2) women have been fasting since ever, and managed to survive. Granted, it wasn't deliberate fasting, but given that Homo sapiens sapiens is still here, it doesn't seem to have done any major damage
And a personal 3) is 11am too early for lunch?? Actually, by the time my potato cooks, it will be after 11.30, so I think that's close a damn nuf.
1) You can eat all my hours! Who knows if this is going to work out, but I really like the idea of not having to eat less during the week or stop going out once a week. Priorities!
2) Yeah, I think this is one of those "OMG UR FERTILITY?" things. I'm not super stressed.
3) I say go for it! But I also tend to start "lunch" around 11:30 and spend an hour or so nibbling, because I'm a grazer. Unless you count my 10:30 snack as part of lunch, which I don't in my mind, but do for counting purposes.1 -
MegaMooseEsq wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »MegaMooseEsq wrote: »MegaMooseEsq wrote: »MegaMooseEsq wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »MegaMooseEsq wrote: »Hopefully this isn't too tangential to the overall re-feed/diet break theme - I've been planning the second half of my weight-loss process and am seriously considering trying out a feast-fast protocol. I'm already eating at or above maintenance 1-2 days a week, and am curious to see the effect of going to one day at a surplus followed by a fasting day. I'm hoping this will keep up whatever benefits I've enjoyed from those maintenance/surplus days, plus it would allow me a "free" day once a week AND I wouldn't have to reduce my calories on deficit days from where I am right now (about 1500/day) but I would be able to lower my overall average, which is going to be necessary if I want to hit my goal weight by the end of next year (which should be fairly doable - I've got 34 lbs to go to hit my goal at the top of my "normal" BMI range).
I've really enjoyed lurking on this thread, but so far haven't considered myself as a candidate for a diet break both because of my higher BMI (I'll hit "overweight" in January, most likely) and because I just haven't experienced any noticeably negative physical or mental side-effects of sustained deficit, which I'm currently crediting largely to those regular maintenance/surplus days. That said, I've still been in an overall deficit for six and a half months now and am aiming for another seven and a half before I start to raise calories again, so I'd like to be ahead of the game if a break becomes beneficial.
Of course, the consensus seems to be that you want to take the break *before* you think you need it, so I'm not sure how that's going to work. Hopefully this thread will still be here by then.
Not remotely tangential!! And a hell of a lot more on topic than a lot of the stuff in here (though we have established that cats and dogs are never a derail).
I'm definitely in the camp of taking a break before you need it, so you don't get to that point. That down regulation of hormones is happening, whether you can feel it or not. Though, your current strategy is probably staving them off more than if you were at a straight 24/7 deficit.
I don't see why your strategy wouldn't work, so long as the fast day is sustainable for you (by fast, do you mean all out fast, or as in like 5:2 where you're doing something like 500 cals on those days?). I'd still consider working full diet breaks into your plan though, especially as you get closer to 'normal' BMI range.
Puppies and kitties are always on point! I hadn’t thought of it that way, but I guess I was thinking of starting with something like the 5:2 diet - my spouse and I have standing movie night Sundays at 8:30, so I figured I’d try fasting until then and eating a normal dinner. The goal might be to move to a full day fast, but maybe not. I’m going to have to skim the thread again to strategize on where to fit a full break - it’s one thing to slot one in when one is struggling, but I’m not quite sure how best to plan a preemptive strike.
Feast/fast eating patterns are fine as long as your weekly average is where you planned it to be and aren't jarred by post-feast morning weigh-ins. It's part of the undulating strategy I had in mind when mentioning it previously. Some days will be higher, other days might be lower - or in the case of fasting, none at all. There are some studies that support ADF or alternating very low calorie days to help insulin sensitivity.
Psychologically, it has an added effect that not everyday needs to be static or in the worse case scenario, a feasting period. Aadam Ali's phrase that stuck with me is "fasting is like a refeed for the mind."
http://physiqonomics.com/philosophies-dieting-fasting-spike-days/
I've very used to post-surplus fluctuations at this point, so I'm not concerned about that aspect, and I've been averaging bimonthly since the spring because it just makes more sense with my life. And that link was exactly what I was reading earlier today - I've been following Ali for a while but hadn't run across that particular subject before, possibly because I've gotten so tired of the IF chatter that I kind of tune it out. I was one of those teenagers who was so against being trendy that I was basically controlled by trends more than the "cool" kids - I still have to fight the impulse to dismiss things simply because they're trendy.
To your last statement, fasting has become a bit of a trend lately, at least within the zero carb/low carb/keto circles. IF has been around since leangains, so that's not too bad. Though, extended fasting for weight loss is completely petarded if that's the only and primary goal for doing a fast >24 hours. To sum up past debates, autophagy is great and all but no one truly understands its mechanisms or realizes that exercise is also considered fasting in fast forward, and that the true rewards of fasting induced autophagy come from the refeed/feasting period afterwards, which should be longer than the fasting period.
Anywho, before I get too off topic, you're familiar with Aadam's philosophy regarding nutrition so I think following his advice is reasonable. Not just because he's my international spirit animal either. Lol.
Thank you for the feed back - I really appreciate it! I've been doing some more reading and have found a few sources (including Aadam) mentioning that women should be cautious when it comes to fasting, so I think I'm definitely going to start with 14-16 hours and see how that suits. It's a little more aggressive than they recommend, but considering I already do 12 hours on post "feast" days not infrequently, I think adding a few hours on top should be fine. We'll see. This is the first time I've seen concerns about women fasting - presumably Islamic women have managed it fine for some time, so I'm not losing my mind, but I do appreciate the need for caution.
Looking ahead, I think late March/early April will make the most sense for a diet break - my birthday and my spouse's birthday are both in there, and we often do a joint party or two around that time anyhow. If all goes according to my hopefully conservative estimates, I should in the mid-150s at that point, less than 20 pounds over the top end of normal BMI, so that seems reasonable.
1) I can eat for you in the hours you're not eating please?
2) women have been fasting since ever, and managed to survive. Granted, it wasn't deliberate fasting, but given that Homo sapiens sapiens is still here, it doesn't seem to have done any major damage
And a personal 3) is 11am too early for lunch?? Actually, by the time my potato cooks, it will be after 11.30, so I think that's close a damn nuf.
1) You can eat all my hours! Who knows if this is going to work out, but I really like the idea of not having to eat less during the week or stop going out once a week. Priorities!
2) Yeah, I think this is one of those "OMG UR FERTILITY?" things. I'm not super stressed.
3) I say go for it! But I also tend to start "lunch" around 11:30 and spend an hour or so nibbling, because I'm a grazer. Unless you count my 10:30 snack as part of lunch, which I don't in my mind, but do for counting purposes.
Eh, I can't really see how IF would impact more on fertility than anything else at the same deficit. But then, not a physiologist, endocrinologist, whoever it is that studies these things.
A 10.30 snack would be second breakfast, really. Though leaves scant room before elevenses. Maybe I will just start eating on a hobbit schedule.
Fishy has now been moved to a proper medicated hospital tank. We shall see if that keeps her perked up. Her tail needs to regrow though, otherwise it's game over, because she can't propel herself.2 -
Thanks everyone for the body fat % info! I still need to take new progress pics.2
-
dancefit2015 wrote: »Thanks everyone for the body fat % info! I still need to take new progress pics.
If it would be helpful to you, I can send you a link to mine, along with Mmapags' and Anubis's assessments (not posting link here b/c I'm in sports undies, perfectly acceptably covered, but it's just asking for a bunch of PMs from the skeezier members of the community).0 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »dancefit2015 wrote: »Thanks everyone for the body fat % info! I still need to take new progress pics.
If it would be helpful to you, I can send you a link to mine, along with Mmapags' and Anubis's assessments (not posting link here b/c I'm in sports undies, perfectly acceptably covered, but it's just asking for a bunch of PMs from the skeezier members of the community).
That might help to see some other comparisons, thanks!1 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »MegaMooseEsq wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »MegaMooseEsq wrote: »MegaMooseEsq wrote: »MegaMooseEsq wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »MegaMooseEsq wrote: »Hopefully this isn't too tangential to the overall re-feed/diet break theme - I've been planning the second half of my weight-loss process and am seriously considering trying out a feast-fast protocol. I'm already eating at or above maintenance 1-2 days a week, and am curious to see the effect of going to one day at a surplus followed by a fasting day. I'm hoping this will keep up whatever benefits I've enjoyed from those maintenance/surplus days, plus it would allow me a "free" day once a week AND I wouldn't have to reduce my calories on deficit days from where I am right now (about 1500/day) but I would be able to lower my overall average, which is going to be necessary if I want to hit my goal weight by the end of next year (which should be fairly doable - I've got 34 lbs to go to hit my goal at the top of my "normal" BMI range).
I've really enjoyed lurking on this thread, but so far haven't considered myself as a candidate for a diet break both because of my higher BMI (I'll hit "overweight" in January, most likely) and because I just haven't experienced any noticeably negative physical or mental side-effects of sustained deficit, which I'm currently crediting largely to those regular maintenance/surplus days. That said, I've still been in an overall deficit for six and a half months now and am aiming for another seven and a half before I start to raise calories again, so I'd like to be ahead of the game if a break becomes beneficial.
Of course, the consensus seems to be that you want to take the break *before* you think you need it, so I'm not sure how that's going to work. Hopefully this thread will still be here by then.
Not remotely tangential!! And a hell of a lot more on topic than a lot of the stuff in here (though we have established that cats and dogs are never a derail).
I'm definitely in the camp of taking a break before you need it, so you don't get to that point. That down regulation of hormones is happening, whether you can feel it or not. Though, your current strategy is probably staving them off more than if you were at a straight 24/7 deficit.
I don't see why your strategy wouldn't work, so long as the fast day is sustainable for you (by fast, do you mean all out fast, or as in like 5:2 where you're doing something like 500 cals on those days?). I'd still consider working full diet breaks into your plan though, especially as you get closer to 'normal' BMI range.
Puppies and kitties are always on point! I hadn’t thought of it that way, but I guess I was thinking of starting with something like the 5:2 diet - my spouse and I have standing movie night Sundays at 8:30, so I figured I’d try fasting until then and eating a normal dinner. The goal might be to move to a full day fast, but maybe not. I’m going to have to skim the thread again to strategize on where to fit a full break - it’s one thing to slot one in when one is struggling, but I’m not quite sure how best to plan a preemptive strike.
Feast/fast eating patterns are fine as long as your weekly average is where you planned it to be and aren't jarred by post-feast morning weigh-ins. It's part of the undulating strategy I had in mind when mentioning it previously. Some days will be higher, other days might be lower - or in the case of fasting, none at all. There are some studies that support ADF or alternating very low calorie days to help insulin sensitivity.
Psychologically, it has an added effect that not everyday needs to be static or in the worse case scenario, a feasting period. Aadam Ali's phrase that stuck with me is "fasting is like a refeed for the mind."
http://physiqonomics.com/philosophies-dieting-fasting-spike-days/
I've very used to post-surplus fluctuations at this point, so I'm not concerned about that aspect, and I've been averaging bimonthly since the spring because it just makes more sense with my life. And that link was exactly what I was reading earlier today - I've been following Ali for a while but hadn't run across that particular subject before, possibly because I've gotten so tired of the IF chatter that I kind of tune it out. I was one of those teenagers who was so against being trendy that I was basically controlled by trends more than the "cool" kids - I still have to fight the impulse to dismiss things simply because they're trendy.
To your last statement, fasting has become a bit of a trend lately, at least within the zero carb/low carb/keto circles. IF has been around since leangains, so that's not too bad. Though, extended fasting for weight loss is completely petarded if that's the only and primary goal for doing a fast >24 hours. To sum up past debates, autophagy is great and all but no one truly understands its mechanisms or realizes that exercise is also considered fasting in fast forward, and that the true rewards of fasting induced autophagy come from the refeed/feasting period afterwards, which should be longer than the fasting period.
Anywho, before I get too off topic, you're familiar with Aadam's philosophy regarding nutrition so I think following his advice is reasonable. Not just because he's my international spirit animal either. Lol.
Thank you for the feed back - I really appreciate it! I've been doing some more reading and have found a few sources (including Aadam) mentioning that women should be cautious when it comes to fasting, so I think I'm definitely going to start with 14-16 hours and see how that suits. It's a little more aggressive than they recommend, but considering I already do 12 hours on post "feast" days not infrequently, I think adding a few hours on top should be fine. We'll see. This is the first time I've seen concerns about women fasting - presumably Islamic women have managed it fine for some time, so I'm not losing my mind, but I do appreciate the need for caution.
Looking ahead, I think late March/early April will make the most sense for a diet break - my birthday and my spouse's birthday are both in there, and we often do a joint party or two around that time anyhow. If all goes according to my hopefully conservative estimates, I should in the mid-150s at that point, less than 20 pounds over the top end of normal BMI, so that seems reasonable.
1) I can eat for you in the hours you're not eating please?
2) women have been fasting since ever, and managed to survive. Granted, it wasn't deliberate fasting, but given that Homo sapiens sapiens is still here, it doesn't seem to have done any major damage
And a personal 3) is 11am too early for lunch?? Actually, by the time my potato cooks, it will be after 11.30, so I think that's close a damn nuf.
1) You can eat all my hours! Who knows if this is going to work out, but I really like the idea of not having to eat less during the week or stop going out once a week. Priorities!
2) Yeah, I think this is one of those "OMG UR FERTILITY?" things. I'm not super stressed.
3) I say go for it! But I also tend to start "lunch" around 11:30 and spend an hour or so nibbling, because I'm a grazer. Unless you count my 10:30 snack as part of lunch, which I don't in my mind, but do for counting purposes.
Eh, I can't really see how IF would impact more on fertility than anything else at the same deficit. But then, not a physiologist, endocrinologist, whoever it is that studies these things.
A 10.30 snack would be second breakfast, really. Though leaves scant room before elevenses. Maybe I will just start eating on a hobbit schedule.
Fishy has now been moved to a proper medicated hospital tank. We shall see if that keeps her perked up. Her tail needs to regrow though, otherwise it's game over, because she can't propel herself.
I renamed my meals for Hobbit meals a while ago, although I doubt they would consider a string cheese and two clementines to be a proper second breakfast!
Good luck, Fishy!3 -
MegaMooseEsq wrote: »MegaMooseEsq wrote: »MegaMooseEsq wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »MegaMooseEsq wrote: »Hopefully this isn't too tangential to the overall re-feed/diet break theme - I've been planning the second half of my weight-loss process and am seriously considering trying out a feast-fast protocol. I'm already eating at or above maintenance 1-2 days a week, and am curious to see the effect of going to one day at a surplus followed by a fasting day. I'm hoping this will keep up whatever benefits I've enjoyed from those maintenance/surplus days, plus it would allow me a "free" day once a week AND I wouldn't have to reduce my calories on deficit days from where I am right now (about 1500/day) but I would be able to lower my overall average, which is going to be necessary if I want to hit my goal weight by the end of next year (which should be fairly doable - I've got 34 lbs to go to hit my goal at the top of my "normal" BMI range).
I've really enjoyed lurking on this thread, but so far haven't considered myself as a candidate for a diet break both because of my higher BMI (I'll hit "overweight" in January, most likely) and because I just haven't experienced any noticeably negative physical or mental side-effects of sustained deficit, which I'm currently crediting largely to those regular maintenance/surplus days. That said, I've still been in an overall deficit for six and a half months now and am aiming for another seven and a half before I start to raise calories again, so I'd like to be ahead of the game if a break becomes beneficial.
Of course, the consensus seems to be that you want to take the break *before* you think you need it, so I'm not sure how that's going to work. Hopefully this thread will still be here by then.
Not remotely tangential!! And a hell of a lot more on topic than a lot of the stuff in here (though we have established that cats and dogs are never a derail).
I'm definitely in the camp of taking a break before you need it, so you don't get to that point. That down regulation of hormones is happening, whether you can feel it or not. Though, your current strategy is probably staving them off more than if you were at a straight 24/7 deficit.
I don't see why your strategy wouldn't work, so long as the fast day is sustainable for you (by fast, do you mean all out fast, or as in like 5:2 where you're doing something like 500 cals on those days?). I'd still consider working full diet breaks into your plan though, especially as you get closer to 'normal' BMI range.
Puppies and kitties are always on point! I hadn’t thought of it that way, but I guess I was thinking of starting with something like the 5:2 diet - my spouse and I have standing movie night Sundays at 8:30, so I figured I’d try fasting until then and eating a normal dinner. The goal might be to move to a full day fast, but maybe not. I’m going to have to skim the thread again to strategize on where to fit a full break - it’s one thing to slot one in when one is struggling, but I’m not quite sure how best to plan a preemptive strike.
Feast/fast eating patterns are fine as long as your weekly average is where you planned it to be and aren't jarred by post-feast morning weigh-ins. It's part of the undulating strategy I had in mind when mentioning it previously. Some days will be higher, other days might be lower - or in the case of fasting, none at all. There are some studies that support ADF or alternating very low calorie days to help insulin sensitivity.
Psychologically, it has an added effect that not everyday needs to be static or in the worse case scenario, a feasting period. Aadam Ali's phrase that stuck with me is "fasting is like a refeed for the mind."
http://physiqonomics.com/philosophies-dieting-fasting-spike-days/
I've very used to post-surplus fluctuations at this point, so I'm not concerned about that aspect, and I've been averaging bimonthly since the spring because it just makes more sense with my life. And that link was exactly what I was reading earlier today - I've been following Ali for a while but hadn't run across that particular subject before, possibly because I've gotten so tired of the IF chatter that I kind of tune it out. I was one of those teenagers who was so against being trendy that I was basically controlled by trends more than the "cool" kids - I still have to fight the impulse to dismiss things simply because they're trendy.
To your last statement, fasting has become a bit of a trend lately, at least within the zero carb/low carb/keto circles. IF has been around since leangains, so that's not too bad. Though, extended fasting for weight loss is completely petarded if that's the only and primary goal for doing a fast >24 hours. To sum up past debates, autophagy is great and all but no one truly understands its mechanisms or realizes that exercise is also considered fasting in fast forward, and that the true rewards of fasting induced autophagy come from the refeed/feasting period afterwards, which should be longer than the fasting period.
Anywho, before I get too off topic, you're familiar with Aadam's philosophy regarding nutrition so I think following his advice is reasonable. Not just because he's my international spirit animal either. Lol.
Thank you for the feed back - I really appreciate it! I've been doing some more reading and have found a few sources (including Aadam) mentioning that women should be cautious when it comes to fasting, so I think I'm definitely going to start with 14-16 hours and see how that suits. It's a little more aggressive than they recommend, but considering I already do 12 hours on post "feast" days not infrequently, I think adding a few hours on top should be fine. We'll see. This is the first time I've seen concerns about women fasting - presumably Islamic women have managed it fine for some time, so I'm not losing my mind, but I do appreciate the need for caution.
Looking ahead, I think late March/early April will make the most sense for a diet break - my birthday and my spouse's birthday are both in there, and we often do a joint party or two around that time anyhow. If all goes according to my hopefully conservative estimates, I should in the mid-150s at that point, less than 20 pounds over the top end of normal BMI, so that seems reasonable.
Fellow online friend and introvert, Amy Berger, has a really good rant about the fasting fad that low carb/keto women tend to implement, much to the nod of it being a trend. Granted, it doesn't have to just be within the low carb community, but that's the population that seeks it out with vigor. And while the term "amenorrhea" is tossed around for good measure, entraining ED patterns is also not something that would be a good look for fasting enthusiasts. As always, it's in context. I don't need to speak to something an adult can decide on their own, but considering the variety of personal stories in this thread alone, many of us have had experiences with not recognizing signs until it became hindsight.
http://www.tuitnutrition.com/2016/09/not-so-fast.html4 -
MegaMooseEsq wrote: »MegaMooseEsq wrote: »MegaMooseEsq wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »MegaMooseEsq wrote: »Hopefully this isn't too tangential to the overall re-feed/diet break theme - I've been planning the second half of my weight-loss process and am seriously considering trying out a feast-fast protocol. I'm already eating at or above maintenance 1-2 days a week, and am curious to see the effect of going to one day at a surplus followed by a fasting day. I'm hoping this will keep up whatever benefits I've enjoyed from those maintenance/surplus days, plus it would allow me a "free" day once a week AND I wouldn't have to reduce my calories on deficit days from where I am right now (about 1500/day) but I would be able to lower my overall average, which is going to be necessary if I want to hit my goal weight by the end of next year (which should be fairly doable - I've got 34 lbs to go to hit my goal at the top of my "normal" BMI range).
I've really enjoyed lurking on this thread, but so far haven't considered myself as a candidate for a diet break both because of my higher BMI (I'll hit "overweight" in January, most likely) and because I just haven't experienced any noticeably negative physical or mental side-effects of sustained deficit, which I'm currently crediting largely to those regular maintenance/surplus days. That said, I've still been in an overall deficit for six and a half months now and am aiming for another seven and a half before I start to raise calories again, so I'd like to be ahead of the game if a break becomes beneficial.
Of course, the consensus seems to be that you want to take the break *before* you think you need it, so I'm not sure how that's going to work. Hopefully this thread will still be here by then.
Not remotely tangential!! And a hell of a lot more on topic than a lot of the stuff in here (though we have established that cats and dogs are never a derail).
I'm definitely in the camp of taking a break before you need it, so you don't get to that point. That down regulation of hormones is happening, whether you can feel it or not. Though, your current strategy is probably staving them off more than if you were at a straight 24/7 deficit.
I don't see why your strategy wouldn't work, so long as the fast day is sustainable for you (by fast, do you mean all out fast, or as in like 5:2 where you're doing something like 500 cals on those days?). I'd still consider working full diet breaks into your plan though, especially as you get closer to 'normal' BMI range.
Puppies and kitties are always on point! I hadn’t thought of it that way, but I guess I was thinking of starting with something like the 5:2 diet - my spouse and I have standing movie night Sundays at 8:30, so I figured I’d try fasting until then and eating a normal dinner. The goal might be to move to a full day fast, but maybe not. I’m going to have to skim the thread again to strategize on where to fit a full break - it’s one thing to slot one in when one is struggling, but I’m not quite sure how best to plan a preemptive strike.
Feast/fast eating patterns are fine as long as your weekly average is where you planned it to be and aren't jarred by post-feast morning weigh-ins. It's part of the undulating strategy I had in mind when mentioning it previously. Some days will be higher, other days might be lower - or in the case of fasting, none at all. There are some studies that support ADF or alternating very low calorie days to help insulin sensitivity.
Psychologically, it has an added effect that not everyday needs to be static or in the worse case scenario, a feasting period. Aadam Ali's phrase that stuck with me is "fasting is like a refeed for the mind."
http://physiqonomics.com/philosophies-dieting-fasting-spike-days/
I've very used to post-surplus fluctuations at this point, so I'm not concerned about that aspect, and I've been averaging bimonthly since the spring because it just makes more sense with my life. And that link was exactly what I was reading earlier today - I've been following Ali for a while but hadn't run across that particular subject before, possibly because I've gotten so tired of the IF chatter that I kind of tune it out. I was one of those teenagers who was so against being trendy that I was basically controlled by trends more than the "cool" kids - I still have to fight the impulse to dismiss things simply because they're trendy.
To your last statement, fasting has become a bit of a trend lately, at least within the zero carb/low carb/keto circles. IF has been around since leangains, so that's not too bad. Though, extended fasting for weight loss is completely petarded if that's the only and primary goal for doing a fast >24 hours. To sum up past debates, autophagy is great and all but no one truly understands its mechanisms or realizes that exercise is also considered fasting in fast forward, and that the true rewards of fasting induced autophagy come from the refeed/feasting period afterwards, which should be longer than the fasting period.
Anywho, before I get too off topic, you're familiar with Aadam's philosophy regarding nutrition so I think following his advice is reasonable. Not just because he's my international spirit animal either. Lol.
Thank you for the feed back - I really appreciate it! I've been doing some more reading and have found a few sources (including Aadam) mentioning that women should be cautious when it comes to fasting, so I think I'm definitely going to start with 14-16 hours and see how that suits. It's a little more aggressive than they recommend, but considering I already do 12 hours on post "feast" days not infrequently, I think adding a few hours on top should be fine. We'll see. This is the first time I've seen concerns about women fasting - presumably Islamic women have managed it fine for some time, so I'm not losing my mind, but I do appreciate the need for caution.
Looking ahead, I think late March/early April will make the most sense for a diet break - my birthday and my spouse's birthday are both in there, and we often do a joint party or two around that time anyhow. If all goes according to my hopefully conservative estimates, I should in the mid-150s at that point, less than 20 pounds over the top end of normal BMI, so that seems reasonable.
Fellow online friend and introvert, Amy Berger, has a really good rant about the fasting fad that low carb/keto women tend to implement, much to the nod of it being a trend. Granted, it doesn't have to just be within the low carb community, but that's the population that seeks it out with vigor. And while the term "amenorrhea" is tossed around for good measure, entraining ED patterns is also not something that would be a good look for fasting enthusiasts. As always, it's in context. I don't need to speak to something an adult can decide on their own, but considering the variety of personal stories in this thread alone, many of us have had experiences with not recognizing signs until it became hindsight.
http://www.tuitnutrition.com/2016/09/not-so-fast.html
Needless to say, I quite liked Part 2. 1 -
On Thursday Nony_Mouse ate through...okay, I'm not going to list every item, here's some screen shots ...and she was still hungry*
(that's 2568 cals for you kj illiterate people)
I think this is just PMS/late phase luteal hunger kicking in earlier than usual. At least I hope that's what it is. It's definitely hunger, not just 'mmmm, I want to eat that tasty thing!'. Deliberately running a 300 cal surplus today to counter apparent Fitbit underestimation combined with increased cal needs for womanly things. I'm a good way over that currently, including yet to be eaten dinner, but my usual evening perambulating will take care of the rest.
*not currently, just had a protein cookie. Give it an hour...5 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »
On Thursday Nony_Mouse ate through...okay, I'm not going to list every item, here's some screen shots ...and she was still hungry*
(that's 2568 cals for you kj illiterate people)
I think this is just PMS/late phase luteal hunger kicking in earlier than usual. At least I hope that's what it is. It's definitely hunger, not just 'mmmm, I want to eat that tasty thing!'. Deliberately running a 300 cal surplus today to counter apparent Fitbit underestimation combined with increased cal needs for womanly things. I'm a good way over that currently, including yet to be eaten dinner, but my usual evening perambulating will take care of the rest.
*not currently, just had a protein cookie. Give it an hour...
LOL. I'm glad you said it was kj, because I was reading, and thinking "dang, I'm envious of her metabolism or her 'I don't give a kitten' nature."4 -
Haha, even I have yet to achieve a cal burn that high!! Best was 4695, and I'm not sure I could top that. I also don't know that I could eat 10,000 cals of food, unless I was allowed to chuck several litres of Coke in there too.
I think tomorrow I'll go back to lower cal lunch, because it really doesn't seem to make a difference to how hungry I am. Though that does mean buying a tiny supermarket avocado when I have four nice big ones refusing to ripen. Or, heaven forbid, thinking of something else for lunch.0 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »
On Thursday Nony_Mouse ate through...okay, I'm not going to list every item, here's some screen shots ...and she was still hungry*
(that's 2568 cals for you kj illiterate people)
I think this is just PMS/late phase luteal hunger kicking in earlier than usual. At least I hope that's what it is. It's definitely hunger, not just 'mmmm, I want to eat that tasty thing!'. Deliberately running a 300 cal surplus today to counter apparent Fitbit underestimation combined with increased cal needs for womanly things. I'm a good way over that currently, including yet to be eaten dinner, but my usual evening perambulating will take care of the rest.
*not currently, just had a protein cookie. Give it an hour...
The volume eater in me is looking at that still hungry... I swear I could be an eating machine. Or a prize winning competitive eater.2 -
livingleanlivingclean wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »
On Thursday Nony_Mouse ate through...okay, I'm not going to list every item, here's some screen shots ...and she was still hungry*
(that's 2568 cals for you kj illiterate people)
I think this is just PMS/late phase luteal hunger kicking in earlier than usual. At least I hope that's what it is. It's definitely hunger, not just 'mmmm, I want to eat that tasty thing!'. Deliberately running a 300 cal surplus today to counter apparent Fitbit underestimation combined with increased cal needs for womanly things. I'm a good way over that currently, including yet to be eaten dinner, but my usual evening perambulating will take care of the rest.
*not currently, just had a protein cookie. Give it an hour...
The volume eater in me is looking at that still hungry... I swear I could be an eating machine. Or a prize winning competitive eater.
Heh, I admit I sometimes look at friends' diaries and think 'omg, how can you possibly feel full on so little volume??'. Normal lunch is a cottage cheese and avocado mix (basically guac with cottage cheese) with either carrot sticks or cauliflower. I've been on a carrot kick lately, but maybe I'll grab a cauli tomorrow morning after physio when I get the stupid tiny avocado, cos more bang for calorie buck. If this is going to persist until Tuesday or Wednesday next week I need to get more savvy with the low cal filling stuff.0 -
Oh funny, I scanned through that list and went "Wait! What? 1000 calories for a protein cookie?"3
-
-
Nony_Mouse wrote: »livingleanlivingclean wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »
On Thursday Nony_Mouse ate through...okay, I'm not going to list every item, here's some screen shots ...and she was still hungry*
(that's 2568 cals for you kj illiterate people)
I think this is just PMS/late phase luteal hunger kicking in earlier than usual. At least I hope that's what it is. It's definitely hunger, not just 'mmmm, I want to eat that tasty thing!'. Deliberately running a 300 cal surplus today to counter apparent Fitbit underestimation combined with increased cal needs for womanly things. I'm a good way over that currently, including yet to be eaten dinner, but my usual evening perambulating will take care of the rest.
*not currently, just had a protein cookie. Give it an hour...
The volume eater in me is looking at that still hungry... I swear I could be an eating machine. Or a prize winning competitive eater.
Heh, I admit I sometimes look at friends' diaries and think 'omg, how can you possibly feel full on so little volume??'. Normal lunch is a cottage cheese and avocado mix (basically guac with cottage cheese) with either carrot sticks or cauliflower. I've been on a carrot kick lately, but maybe I'll grab a cauli tomorrow morning after physio when I get the stupid tiny avocado, cos more bang for calorie buck. If this is going to persist until Tuesday or Wednesday next week I need to get more savvy with the low cal filling stuff.
I'm expert at volume - I have to make myself cut back sometimes because it can get ridiculous. My dinner during the week (for the past few weeks) has been a mammoth salad... Slightly ridiculous.
About 250g lettuce/leaves
50g alfalfa sprouts, grated Beetroot, grated carrot, avocado
100g red cabbage, celery, tomato, cucumber, capsicum
200g pumpkin
... And a chunk of salmon. And sometimes rice mixed in.
3 -
livingleanlivingclean wrote: »
About 250g lettuce/leaves
50g alfalfa sprouts, grated Beetroot, grated carrot, avocado
100g red cabbage, celery, tomato, cucumber, capsicum
200g pumpkin
... And a chunk of salmon. And sometimes rice mixed in.
So are we talking 600g total, or 1150g total? And what form is the pumpkin?0 -
livingleanlivingclean wrote: »
About 250g lettuce/leaves
50g alfalfa sprouts, grated Beetroot, grated carrot, avocado
100g red cabbage, celery, tomato, cucumber, capsicum
200g pumpkin
... And a chunk of salmon. And sometimes rice mixed in.
So are we talking 600g total, or 1150g total? And what form is the pumpkin?
1150 total... Raw weight pumpkin, but I cook it...1 -
livingleanlivingclean wrote: »livingleanlivingclean wrote: »
About 250g lettuce/leaves
50g alfalfa sprouts, grated Beetroot, grated carrot, avocado
100g red cabbage, celery, tomato, cucumber, capsicum
200g pumpkin
... And a chunk of salmon. And sometimes rice mixed in.
So are we talking 600g total, or 1150g total? And what form is the pumpkin?
1150 total... Raw weight pumpkin, but I cook it...
Still trying to figure out how to cook pumpkin and squashes! Occasionally have used canned unsweatened pumpkin err... maybe mixed in with cool whip, who knows why
Sounds AWESOME.0 -
livingleanlivingclean wrote: »livingleanlivingclean wrote: »
About 250g lettuce/leaves
50g alfalfa sprouts, grated Beetroot, grated carrot, avocado
100g red cabbage, celery, tomato, cucumber, capsicum
200g pumpkin
... And a chunk of salmon. And sometimes rice mixed in.
So are we talking 600g total, or 1150g total? And what form is the pumpkin?
1150 total... Raw weight pumpkin, but I cook it...
Still trying to figure out how to cook pumpkin and squashes! Occasionally have used canned unsweatened pumpkin err... maybe mixed in with cool whip, who knows why
Sounds AWESOME.
I roast it - in Australia we eat pumpkin/squash more as a vegetable, with dinner, not so much dessert. I cut it in chunks and bake it with spices on it (garlic powder, paprika, cumin, cayenne)
Pumpkin/squash Soup is good too - I still roast chunks, then blend with stock. The roasting adds more flavour3 -
livingleanlivingclean wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »livingleanlivingclean wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »
On Thursday Nony_Mouse ate through...okay, I'm not going to list every item, here's some screen shots ...and she was still hungry*
(that's 2568 cals for you kj illiterate people)
I think this is just PMS/late phase luteal hunger kicking in earlier than usual. At least I hope that's what it is. It's definitely hunger, not just 'mmmm, I want to eat that tasty thing!'. Deliberately running a 300 cal surplus today to counter apparent Fitbit underestimation combined with increased cal needs for womanly things. I'm a good way over that currently, including yet to be eaten dinner, but my usual evening perambulating will take care of the rest.
*not currently, just had a protein cookie. Give it an hour...
The volume eater in me is looking at that still hungry... I swear I could be an eating machine. Or a prize winning competitive eater.
Heh, I admit I sometimes look at friends' diaries and think 'omg, how can you possibly feel full on so little volume??'. Normal lunch is a cottage cheese and avocado mix (basically guac with cottage cheese) with either carrot sticks or cauliflower. I've been on a carrot kick lately, but maybe I'll grab a cauli tomorrow morning after physio when I get the stupid tiny avocado, cos more bang for calorie buck. If this is going to persist until Tuesday or Wednesday next week I need to get more savvy with the low cal filling stuff.
I'm expert at volume - I have to make myself cut back sometimes because it can get ridiculous. My dinner during the week (for the past few weeks) has been a mammoth salad... Slightly ridiculous.
About 250g lettuce/leaves
50g alfalfa sprouts, grated Beetroot, grated carrot, avocado
100g red cabbage, celery, tomato, cucumber, capsicum
200g pumpkin
... And a chunk of salmon. And sometimes rice mixed in.
I’m the same. I can stuff myself off 225g each of yellow squash, zucchini, and spinach + 230g egg white + 230g of canned chicken breast + turmeric & black pepper + hot sauce/calorie free dressing. Crap ton of volume ~ 500kcal, minimal fat, prioritized protein, lower carb, and voila, psmf lunch macros lol.
It’s truly not enjoyable or sustainable long term, but it is what it is when cutting season starts and vanity is a priority ¯\_(ツ)_/¯1 -
See, I thought I was on the volume eater spectrum, but apparently not...
An NZ is the same with pumpkin, it's a vegetable. In winter pumpkin soup is one of my lunch staples. Stuffed pumpkin, either butternut or buttercup, is also awesome.2
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