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What do you think about impact of the phrase 'nothing is impossible if you work hard enough' ?
Replies
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Need2Exerc1se wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »WorkerDrone83 wrote: »I don't think "try your hardest and never give up" is sufficient. Just imagine all of the remarkable technologies and discoveries that wouldn't have had a chance if everyone was so defeatist.
How about "Try the impossible, you might just succeed."
This I can get behind.
Sometimes I need to try harder to put my cynicism in the drawer, LOL!
I'm intrigued at how many people think "Try the impossible, you might just succeed" is a good phrase, while not liking 'nothing is impossible if you work hard enough' because it's not always true.
"Try the impossible, you might just succeed" is always untrue. If it's impossible you can't succeed, because if you succeed then it wasn't impossible.
How about, "If you think it's impossible try it anyway, you just might succeed..."4 -
WorkerDrone83 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »WorkerDrone83 wrote: »I don't think "try your hardest and never give up" is sufficient. Just imagine all of the remarkable technologies and discoveries that wouldn't have had a chance if everyone was so defeatist.
How about "Try the impossible, you might just succeed."
This I can get behind.
Sometimes I need to try harder to put my cynicism in the drawer, LOL!
I'm intrigued at how many people think "Try the impossible, you might just succeed" is a good phrase, while not liking 'nothing is impossible if you work hard enough' because it's not always true.
"Try the impossible, you might just succeed" is always untrue. If it's impossible you can't succeed, because if you succeed then it wasn't impossible.
I think it's implied to be "Try (what you believe to be) the impossible, you might just succeed." Everyone is so literal around here. haha
I agree. I'm just intrigued by the dislike of the OP's phrase because when taken literally it is untrue, but the opposite reaction to the other.2 -
WorkerDrone83 wrote: »WorkerDrone83 wrote: »WorkerDrone83 wrote: »clicketykeys wrote: »WorkerDrone83 wrote: »@canadianlbs wrote: »WorkerDrone83 wrote: »I think you're taking the phrase WAY too literally.
no, i don't think so. if someone asks me a question, i like to actually think about my answer, whatever it is. and i like to know why it is my answer and be able to explain it.
the phrase does literally annoy me, because i'm a literal-minded kind of person. imprecision and over-inflation undermine the speaker's credibility. and i like clarity in communication, so sloppy credibility is a definite irritant. some people do like having motivational sunshine blown up their butts, but that doesnt' mean everyone does or that everyone should.It'd be interesting to see which group is generally happier and/or more successful at achieving their goals.
see, ime different people define happiness itself in different ways, so i wouldn't get too invested in the idea that everyone who's not wired to your grid is either an automatic sad sack or a 'failure'. i know people who achieve based on this kind of narrow motivational path and are happy with it. and people who achieve based on that path and instantly question whether the achievement was worth the cost. equally, i know very happy 'dabblers' who never set a goal in their lives and who like it that way. and others who have set goals, and failed, and been wrecked because they had all their psychological/identity eggs in that single basket.
i don't think you should be making it such a defensive, zero-sum kind of competitive thing. it's an exchange of opinions and a range of people expressing their views, not a psycho-ideological war. but then again, i prefer conversation over this thing of 'debate' so maybe i should just stay out of discussions like these.
Not to outshine your very literal, cold way of thinking, but shouldn't the point of every discussion be to end with a truth? A binary and definite answer? The broadening of one's mind and hearing the thoughts and opinions of others is icing on the cake, but I don't like talking for the sake of talking.
Nope. Sometimes it's important to get a clear answer, but in other cases, understanding is more important than being right. Additionally, in discussions that involve personal experience, more than one option may be "right." Requiring a binary often sets you up for the false choice fallacy.
We're getting a little off topic, and I feel bad for that. Sorry OP! But what's the point of understanding if not to enable us to make right choices in the future. Even if we make the mistake of a logical fallacy, the new discussion should be to address if that is true or false.
True for who? Maybe for you but not for someone else...
Haha, nah. I don't believe that. I'm not talking about perception, I'm talking about truth. If someone believes that the world is flat, that doesn't mean that it's the truth, even for them. It just means they're wrong.
But we're not talking about something as definitive as the earth being flat. We're talking about people, their perception, their personalities etc. There are many shades of grey involved....
True and I understand shades of grey. But I'm not talking about perceptions and personalities. We're talking about possibilities. Is something possible? True or false? I think we both agree that what may be easily achieved by some, requires extraordinary effort and willpower for others.
Sometimes true, sometimes false. Does not mean you should not shoot for the moon, you might just land amongst the stars...
Agreed.
I'm spending too much time in here.
You guys rock! Thanks for the dialog.0 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »WorkerDrone83 wrote: »I don't think "try your hardest and never give up" is sufficient. Just imagine all of the remarkable technologies and discoveries that wouldn't have had a chance if everyone was so defeatist.
How about "Try the impossible, you might just succeed."
This I can get behind.
Sometimes I need to try harder to put my cynicism in the drawer, LOL!
I'm intrigued at how many people think "Try the impossible, you might just succeed" is a good phrase, while not liking 'nothing is impossible if you work hard enough' because it's not always true.
"Try the impossible, you might just succeed" is always untrue. If it's impossible you can't succeed, because if you succeed then it wasn't impossible.
How about, "If you think it's impossible try it anyway, you just might succeed..."
Better. Though I have no problem with the phrase as it was, just thought the difference in reactions was interesting. Even the way you wrote it could leave some putting a lot of effort into something that will never be achieved. Like the original phrase.1 -
WorkerDrone83 wrote: »WorkerDrone83 wrote: »WorkerDrone83 wrote: »clicketykeys wrote: »WorkerDrone83 wrote: »@canadianlbs wrote: »WorkerDrone83 wrote: »I think you're taking the phrase WAY too literally.
no, i don't think so. if someone asks me a question, i like to actually think about my answer, whatever it is. and i like to know why it is my answer and be able to explain it.
the phrase does literally annoy me, because i'm a literal-minded kind of person. imprecision and over-inflation undermine the speaker's credibility. and i like clarity in communication, so sloppy credibility is a definite irritant. some people do like having motivational sunshine blown up their butts, but that doesnt' mean everyone does or that everyone should.It'd be interesting to see which group is generally happier and/or more successful at achieving their goals.
see, ime different people define happiness itself in different ways, so i wouldn't get too invested in the idea that everyone who's not wired to your grid is either an automatic sad sack or a 'failure'. i know people who achieve based on this kind of narrow motivational path and are happy with it. and people who achieve based on that path and instantly question whether the achievement was worth the cost. equally, i know very happy 'dabblers' who never set a goal in their lives and who like it that way. and others who have set goals, and failed, and been wrecked because they had all their psychological/identity eggs in that single basket.
i don't think you should be making it such a defensive, zero-sum kind of competitive thing. it's an exchange of opinions and a range of people expressing their views, not a psycho-ideological war. but then again, i prefer conversation over this thing of 'debate' so maybe i should just stay out of discussions like these.
Not to outshine your very literal, cold way of thinking, but shouldn't the point of every discussion be to end with a truth? A binary and definite answer? The broadening of one's mind and hearing the thoughts and opinions of others is icing on the cake, but I don't like talking for the sake of talking.
Nope. Sometimes it's important to get a clear answer, but in other cases, understanding is more important than being right. Additionally, in discussions that involve personal experience, more than one option may be "right." Requiring a binary often sets you up for the false choice fallacy.
We're getting a little off topic, and I feel bad for that. Sorry OP! But what's the point of understanding if not to enable us to make right choices in the future. Even if we make the mistake of a logical fallacy, the new discussion should be to address if that is true or false.
True for who? Maybe for you but not for someone else...
Haha, nah. I don't believe that. I'm not talking about perception, I'm talking about truth. If someone believes that the world is flat, that doesn't mean that it's the truth, even for them. It just means they're wrong.
But we're not talking about something as definitive as the earth being flat. We're talking about people, their perception, their personalities etc. There are many shades of grey involved....
True and I understand shades of grey. But I'm not talking about perceptions and personalities. We're talking about possibilities. Is something possible? True or false? I think we both agree that what may be easily achieved by some, requires extraordinary effort and willpower for others.
Sometimes true, sometimes false. Does not mean you should not shoot for the moon, you might just land amongst the stars...
The stars are further away and harder to reach than the moon.
Just saying.8 -
stanmann571 wrote: »WorkerDrone83 wrote: »WorkerDrone83 wrote: »WorkerDrone83 wrote: »clicketykeys wrote: »WorkerDrone83 wrote: »@canadianlbs wrote: »WorkerDrone83 wrote: »I think you're taking the phrase WAY too literally.
no, i don't think so. if someone asks me a question, i like to actually think about my answer, whatever it is. and i like to know why it is my answer and be able to explain it.
the phrase does literally annoy me, because i'm a literal-minded kind of person. imprecision and over-inflation undermine the speaker's credibility. and i like clarity in communication, so sloppy credibility is a definite irritant. some people do like having motivational sunshine blown up their butts, but that doesnt' mean everyone does or that everyone should.It'd be interesting to see which group is generally happier and/or more successful at achieving their goals.
see, ime different people define happiness itself in different ways, so i wouldn't get too invested in the idea that everyone who's not wired to your grid is either an automatic sad sack or a 'failure'. i know people who achieve based on this kind of narrow motivational path and are happy with it. and people who achieve based on that path and instantly question whether the achievement was worth the cost. equally, i know very happy 'dabblers' who never set a goal in their lives and who like it that way. and others who have set goals, and failed, and been wrecked because they had all their psychological/identity eggs in that single basket.
i don't think you should be making it such a defensive, zero-sum kind of competitive thing. it's an exchange of opinions and a range of people expressing their views, not a psycho-ideological war. but then again, i prefer conversation over this thing of 'debate' so maybe i should just stay out of discussions like these.
Not to outshine your very literal, cold way of thinking, but shouldn't the point of every discussion be to end with a truth? A binary and definite answer? The broadening of one's mind and hearing the thoughts and opinions of others is icing on the cake, but I don't like talking for the sake of talking.
Nope. Sometimes it's important to get a clear answer, but in other cases, understanding is more important than being right. Additionally, in discussions that involve personal experience, more than one option may be "right." Requiring a binary often sets you up for the false choice fallacy.
We're getting a little off topic, and I feel bad for that. Sorry OP! But what's the point of understanding if not to enable us to make right choices in the future. Even if we make the mistake of a logical fallacy, the new discussion should be to address if that is true or false.
True for who? Maybe for you but not for someone else...
Haha, nah. I don't believe that. I'm not talking about perception, I'm talking about truth. If someone believes that the world is flat, that doesn't mean that it's the truth, even for them. It just means they're wrong.
But we're not talking about something as definitive as the earth being flat. We're talking about people, their perception, their personalities etc. There are many shades of grey involved....
True and I understand shades of grey. But I'm not talking about perceptions and personalities. We're talking about possibilities. Is something possible? True or false? I think we both agree that what may be easily achieved by some, requires extraordinary effort and willpower for others.
Sometimes true, sometimes false. Does not mean you should not shoot for the moon, you might just land amongst the stars...
The stars are further away and harder to reach than the moon.
Just saying.
Hahaha... you're right. Shoot for the stars, you just might land on the moon. Which, we have done, and I'm sure at some point was impossible...1 -
WorkerDrone83 wrote: »WorkerDrone83 wrote: »clicketykeys wrote: »WorkerDrone83 wrote: »@canadianlbs wrote: »WorkerDrone83 wrote: »I think you're taking the phrase WAY too literally.
no, i don't think so. if someone asks me a question, i like to actually think about my answer, whatever it is. and i like to know why it is my answer and be able to explain it.
the phrase does literally annoy me, because i'm a literal-minded kind of person. imprecision and over-inflation undermine the speaker's credibility. and i like clarity in communication, so sloppy credibility is a definite irritant. some people do like having motivational sunshine blown up their butts, but that doesnt' mean everyone does or that everyone should.It'd be interesting to see which group is generally happier and/or more successful at achieving their goals.
see, ime different people define happiness itself in different ways, so i wouldn't get too invested in the idea that everyone who's not wired to your grid is either an automatic sad sack or a 'failure'. i know people who achieve based on this kind of narrow motivational path and are happy with it. and people who achieve based on that path and instantly question whether the achievement was worth the cost. equally, i know very happy 'dabblers' who never set a goal in their lives and who like it that way. and others who have set goals, and failed, and been wrecked because they had all their psychological/identity eggs in that single basket.
i don't think you should be making it such a defensive, zero-sum kind of competitive thing. it's an exchange of opinions and a range of people expressing their views, not a psycho-ideological war. but then again, i prefer conversation over this thing of 'debate' so maybe i should just stay out of discussions like these.
Not to outshine your very literal, cold way of thinking, but shouldn't the point of every discussion be to end with a truth? A binary and definite answer? The broadening of one's mind and hearing the thoughts and opinions of others is icing on the cake, but I don't like talking for the sake of talking.
Nope. Sometimes it's important to get a clear answer, but in other cases, understanding is more important than being right. Additionally, in discussions that involve personal experience, more than one option may be "right." Requiring a binary often sets you up for the false choice fallacy.
We're getting a little off topic, and I feel bad for that. Sorry OP! But what's the point of understanding if not to enable us to make right choices in the future. Even if we make the mistake of a logical fallacy, the new discussion should be to address if that is true or false.
True for who? Maybe for you but not for someone else...
Haha, nah. I don't believe that. I'm not talking about perception, I'm talking about truth. If someone believes that the world is flat, that doesn't mean that it's the truth, even for them. It just means they're wrong.
Here you're using "truth" when "fact" seems to be more closely what you mean. The point of understanding is to aid us in behaving kindly and compassionately toward others. When my husband tells me about his day, he's not trying to prove anything at all. When he tells me that roller coasters with hang time are physically uncomfortable for him, I'll describe the relaxing exhilaration it gives me so that we can understand each other better, not in order to try to prove him wrong.
Concepts like "success" and "happiness" are things we experience, and as such, are going to be experienced differently by different people.4 -
clicketykeys wrote: »WorkerDrone83 wrote: »WorkerDrone83 wrote: »clicketykeys wrote: »WorkerDrone83 wrote: »@canadianlbs wrote: »WorkerDrone83 wrote: »I think you're taking the phrase WAY too literally.
no, i don't think so. if someone asks me a question, i like to actually think about my answer, whatever it is. and i like to know why it is my answer and be able to explain it.
the phrase does literally annoy me, because i'm a literal-minded kind of person. imprecision and over-inflation undermine the speaker's credibility. and i like clarity in communication, so sloppy credibility is a definite irritant. some people do like having motivational sunshine blown up their butts, but that doesnt' mean everyone does or that everyone should.It'd be interesting to see which group is generally happier and/or more successful at achieving their goals.
see, ime different people define happiness itself in different ways, so i wouldn't get too invested in the idea that everyone who's not wired to your grid is either an automatic sad sack or a 'failure'. i know people who achieve based on this kind of narrow motivational path and are happy with it. and people who achieve based on that path and instantly question whether the achievement was worth the cost. equally, i know very happy 'dabblers' who never set a goal in their lives and who like it that way. and others who have set goals, and failed, and been wrecked because they had all their psychological/identity eggs in that single basket.
i don't think you should be making it such a defensive, zero-sum kind of competitive thing. it's an exchange of opinions and a range of people expressing their views, not a psycho-ideological war. but then again, i prefer conversation over this thing of 'debate' so maybe i should just stay out of discussions like these.
Not to outshine your very literal, cold way of thinking, but shouldn't the point of every discussion be to end with a truth? A binary and definite answer? The broadening of one's mind and hearing the thoughts and opinions of others is icing on the cake, but I don't like talking for the sake of talking.
Nope. Sometimes it's important to get a clear answer, but in other cases, understanding is more important than being right. Additionally, in discussions that involve personal experience, more than one option may be "right." Requiring a binary often sets you up for the false choice fallacy.
We're getting a little off topic, and I feel bad for that. Sorry OP! But what's the point of understanding if not to enable us to make right choices in the future. Even if we make the mistake of a logical fallacy, the new discussion should be to address if that is true or false.
True for who? Maybe for you but not for someone else...
Haha, nah. I don't believe that. I'm not talking about perception, I'm talking about truth. If someone believes that the world is flat, that doesn't mean that it's the truth, even for them. It just means they're wrong.
Here you're using "truth" when "fact" seems to be more closely what you mean. The point of understanding is to aid us in behaving kindly and compassionately toward others. When my husband tells me about his day, he's not trying to prove anything at all. When he tells me that roller coasters with hang time are physically uncomfortable for him, I'll describe the relaxing exhilaration it gives me so that we can understand each other better, not in order to try to prove him wrong.
Concepts like "success" and "happiness" are things we experience, and as such, are going to be experienced differently by different people.
Very good point. I believe I the term 'fact' is much more appropriate. Thank you.
Strongly disagree about the point of understanding, though. Your purpose is very... "hippie dippy?" I would say that when he's telling you about his day he's stating facts about it. You interpret the data and determine a suitable response. He states that he doesn't like the feeling of roller coasters. You state that you do. Both facts. And now you both understand each others stance on rollercoasters so you can make a decision to maybe do something else.1 -
WorkerDrone83 wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »WorkerDrone83 wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »WorkerDrone83 wrote: »Wow, I did not expect to be in the minority on this one. That's a perfectly positive phrase and I've found it to be mostly true. The other variant I've heard once was "If someone REALLY wants to do something, that person is going to do it REALLY well." I'm not sure if intelligence, dedication, and strong work ethic counts as 'privilege.'
There are an awful lot of other privileges, the lack of which can make achieving the promise of this phrase logistically improbable.
Besides the fact that the bolded are not privileges...
Depends on who you ask.
No...
Yeah, it does. Many people assert that the ability/willingness to hustle and keep at something are a sign of privilege.
Whoa, this blows my mind. I don't mean to put you on the spot, but how is not being a lazy quitter a privilege?
There's a big yawning gulf of a spectrum between being a lazy quitter and being a dedicated hustler.
At some places on that spectrum, things like physical and mental disabilities can impact one's ability and or willingness to hustle. Not having such a physical or mental impairment is privilege.
Respectfully disagree. The absence of disabilities should not be viewed as privilege, unless we're using a really loose definition of privilege where a vast majority of people qualify.
All this talk of privilege is getting old. So people have some advantages that others don't. That's life. A lot of us weren't born with silver spoons in our mouths, but that doesn't hold us back from success or reaching our goals. Seems like more of an excuse than an explanation.
As for the phrase in question, is it really so bad to offer up optimistic hope when people really can do things they think are impossible? Perhaps people really just don't want to see the flip-side of the coin, that if they don't reach their goals it's their own fault.
But it IS a privilege to be able to climb stairs, walk up an inline, walk across uneven ground without falling, kneel on the floor, and climb ladders. The difficulty setting on the video game of life for the majority of people is set much lower than it is for some, and that's all that privilege is: how hard is your life based on the luck of draw when you were born.
My video game level is set up to be very easy in many ways. I'm very solidly middle class, I live in a first world country, I'm white, I'm taller than average, I'm educated and smart. I have a car, a smartphone, a large house, enough food, and don't have to work because my husband earns a lot of money, I have excellent health insurance. I'm young, but that will change with time.
My video game level is set up to be harder than others in a lot of ways too. I'm female, I'm fat (I'm working on that though), I'm unhealthy (some of this can be fixed, my diabetes will go into remission - my mental illness never will), I have moderately severe mental illness that does severely affect my quality of life (such as being able to hold down a job), I am not neurotypical, I have a birth defect in my knee limiting my ability to walk/climb stairs/hills/ladders, I have PTSD.
I will not likely by pulled over by the police for no reason because I'm white, but I am more likely to be sexually assaulted because I'm female. I lack the able-bodied privilege, but I have yet to be in a wheelchair so I have more privilege than some.
Everyone has privileges and disprivileges. Some have more privileges than others though. These privileges open up the opportunities that are given to us in life. It's not an excuse, it's a fact of life.
A friend works in the Dallas school district working with underprivileged children and helping them get to college. Without her intervention and VERY hard work, these children would not be able to jump through the hoops to take advantage of the opportunities that are there. These children are often the first in their family to go to college, and are not privileged enough to know where to start to apply for school. Even community college is out of reach for them, without her influence. Because of her, they are able to do the impossible. She uses HER privilege to give OTHERS privilege. But it's still privilege.
Because I grew up in a middle class family, I was expected, encouraged, and financially able to go to college, and thus able to marry into a middle class family. Because my husband has a good degree and a good job, we are now an upper middle class family. That opportunity would not have been mine had my father been a factory worker instead of a school teacher. I would not have met my husband had I not gone to college and pursued the major I chose, because he went to a different church.8 -
The absence of disabilities is not a privilege, it is a gift...6
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WorkerDrone83 wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »WorkerDrone83 wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »WorkerDrone83 wrote: »Wow, I did not expect to be in the minority on this one. That's a perfectly positive phrase and I've found it to be mostly true. The other variant I've heard once was "If someone REALLY wants to do something, that person is going to do it REALLY well." I'm not sure if intelligence, dedication, and strong work ethic counts as 'privilege.'
There are an awful lot of other privileges, the lack of which can make achieving the promise of this phrase logistically improbable.
Besides the fact that the bolded are not privileges...
Depends on who you ask.
No...
Yeah, it does. Many people assert that the ability/willingness to hustle and keep at something are a sign of privilege.
Whoa, this blows my mind. I don't mean to put you on the spot, but how is not being a lazy quitter a privilege?
There's a big yawning gulf of a spectrum between being a lazy quitter and being a dedicated hustler.
At some places on that spectrum, things like physical and mental disabilities can impact one's ability and or willingness to hustle. Not having such a physical or mental impairment is privilege.
Respectfully disagree. The absence of disabilities should not be viewed as privilege, unless we're using a really loose definition of privilege where a vast majority of people qualify.
All this talk of privilege is getting old. So people have some advantages that others don't. That's life. A lot of us weren't born with silver spoons in our mouths, but that doesn't hold us back from success or reaching our goals. Seems like more of an excuse than an explanation.
As for the phrase in question, is it really so bad to offer up optimistic hope when people really can do things they think are impossible? Perhaps people really just don't want to see the flip-side of the coin, that if they don't reach their goals it's their own fault.
But it IS a privilege to be able to climb stairs, walk up an inline, walk across uneven ground without falling, kneel on the floor, and climb ladders. The difficulty setting on the video game of life for the majority of people is set much lower than it is for some, and that's all that privilege is: how hard is your life based on the luck of draw when you were born.
My video game level is set up to be very easy in many ways. I'm very solidly middle class, I live in a first world country, I'm white, I'm taller than average, I'm educated and smart. I have a car, a smartphone, a large house, enough food, and don't have to work because my husband earns a lot of money, I have excellent health insurance. I'm young, but that will change with time.
My video game level is set up to be harder than others in a lot of ways too. I'm female, I'm fat (I'm working on that though), I'm unhealthy (some of this can be fixed, my diabetes will go into remission - my mental illness never will), I have moderately severe mental illness that does severely affect my quality of life (such as being able to hold down a job), I am not neurotypical, I have a birth defect in my knee limiting my ability to walk/climb stairs/hills/ladders, I have PTSD.
I will not likely by pulled over by the police for no reason because I'm white, but I am more likely to be sexually assaulted because I'm female. I lack the able-bodied privilege, but I have yet to be in a wheelchair so I have more privilege than some.
Everyone has privileges and disprivileges. Some have more privileges than others though. These privileges open up the opportunities that are given to us in life. It's not an excuse, it's a fact of life.
A friend works in the Dallas school district working with underprivileged children and helping them get to college. Without her intervention and VERY hard work, these children would not be able to jump through the hoops to take advantage of the opportunities that are there. These children are often the first in their family to go to college, and are not privileged enough to know where to start to apply for school. Even community college is out of reach for them, without her influence. Because of her, they are able to do the impossible. She uses HER privilege to give OTHERS privilege. But it's still privilege.
Because I grew up in a middle class family, I was expected, encouraged, and financially able to go to college, and thus able to marry into a middle class family. Because my husband has a good degree and a good job, we are now an upper middle class family. That opportunity would not have been mine had my father been a factory worker instead of a school teacher. I would not have met my husband had I not gone to college and pursued the major I chose, because he went to a different church.
Wow, you wrote a lot. Haha. I can tell that you put some time and effort into it, so I'm inclined to respond.
I think we agree more than we disagree on this. We both used a variation of "That's life" understanding that all people may be created equal, but they don't stay that way for long.
What I don't agree with is the flagrant use of the term privilege. Are people who can walk supposed to feel like jerks because they have something that not everybody does? Should I feel resentful because I wasn't born with a trust fund?
Kudos to your friend, but I think you're not giving the kids enough credit. They're seizing an opportunity and (coming back to the point of the thread) working hard to achieve something that perhaps hasn't been historically available to them. So in a way, they're actually privileged...?4 -
WorkerDrone83 wrote: »WorkerDrone83 wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »WorkerDrone83 wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »WorkerDrone83 wrote: »Wow, I did not expect to be in the minority on this one. That's a perfectly positive phrase and I've found it to be mostly true. The other variant I've heard once was "If someone REALLY wants to do something, that person is going to do it REALLY well." I'm not sure if intelligence, dedication, and strong work ethic counts as 'privilege.'
There are an awful lot of other privileges, the lack of which can make achieving the promise of this phrase logistically improbable.
Besides the fact that the bolded are not privileges...
Depends on who you ask.
No...
Yeah, it does. Many people assert that the ability/willingness to hustle and keep at something are a sign of privilege.
Whoa, this blows my mind. I don't mean to put you on the spot, but how is not being a lazy quitter a privilege?
There's a big yawning gulf of a spectrum between being a lazy quitter and being a dedicated hustler.
At some places on that spectrum, things like physical and mental disabilities can impact one's ability and or willingness to hustle. Not having such a physical or mental impairment is privilege.
Respectfully disagree. The absence of disabilities should not be viewed as privilege, unless we're using a really loose definition of privilege where a vast majority of people qualify.
All this talk of privilege is getting old. So people have some advantages that others don't. That's life. A lot of us weren't born with silver spoons in our mouths, but that doesn't hold us back from success or reaching our goals. Seems like more of an excuse than an explanation.
As for the phrase in question, is it really so bad to offer up optimistic hope when people really can do things they think are impossible? Perhaps people really just don't want to see the flip-side of the coin, that if they don't reach their goals it's their own fault.
But it IS a privilege to be able to climb stairs, walk up an inline, walk across uneven ground without falling, kneel on the floor, and climb ladders. The difficulty setting on the video game of life for the majority of people is set much lower than it is for some, and that's all that privilege is: how hard is your life based on the luck of draw when you were born.
My video game level is set up to be very easy in many ways. I'm very solidly middle class, I live in a first world country, I'm white, I'm taller than average, I'm educated and smart. I have a car, a smartphone, a large house, enough food, and don't have to work because my husband earns a lot of money, I have excellent health insurance. I'm young, but that will change with time.
My video game level is set up to be harder than others in a lot of ways too. I'm female, I'm fat (I'm working on that though), I'm unhealthy (some of this can be fixed, my diabetes will go into remission - my mental illness never will), I have moderately severe mental illness that does severely affect my quality of life (such as being able to hold down a job), I am not neurotypical, I have a birth defect in my knee limiting my ability to walk/climb stairs/hills/ladders, I have PTSD.
I will not likely by pulled over by the police for no reason because I'm white, but I am more likely to be sexually assaulted because I'm female. I lack the able-bodied privilege, but I have yet to be in a wheelchair so I have more privilege than some.
Everyone has privileges and disprivileges. Some have more privileges than others though. These privileges open up the opportunities that are given to us in life. It's not an excuse, it's a fact of life.
A friend works in the Dallas school district working with underprivileged children and helping them get to college. Without her intervention and VERY hard work, these children would not be able to jump through the hoops to take advantage of the opportunities that are there. These children are often the first in their family to go to college, and are not privileged enough to know where to start to apply for school. Even community college is out of reach for them, without her influence. Because of her, they are able to do the impossible. She uses HER privilege to give OTHERS privilege. But it's still privilege.
Because I grew up in a middle class family, I was expected, encouraged, and financially able to go to college, and thus able to marry into a middle class family. Because my husband has a good degree and a good job, we are now an upper middle class family. That opportunity would not have been mine had my father been a factory worker instead of a school teacher. I would not have met my husband had I not gone to college and pursued the major I chose, because he went to a different church.
Wow, you wrote a lot. Haha. I can tell that you put some time and effort into it, so I'm inclined to respond.
I think we agree more than we disagree on this. We both used a variation of "That's life" understanding that all people may be created equal, but they don't stay that way for long.
What I don't agree with is the flagrant use of the term privilege. Are people who can walk supposed to feel like jerks because they have something that not everybody does? Should I feel resentful because I wasn't born with a trust fund?
Kudos to your friend, but I think you're not giving the kids enough credit. They're seizing an opportunity and (coming back to the point of the thread) working hard to achieve something that perhaps hasn't been historically available to them. So in a way, they're actually privileged...?
I always write a lot. I'm a fast typist and love the sound of my virtual voice.
No one should feel like a jerk for having a privilege or using that privilege to their advantage. As long as they aren't using it to TAKE advantage of others, like Harvey Weinstein. I think that you (generic, not pointing fingers) should recognize that not everyone has had the same opportunities that you have had because they aren't given the same set of privileges you are at birth, and understand where they are coming from when they talk about their own experiences.
I majored in tech. I have a lot of female friends in tech, they all have stories of being talked over and even being asked for a male to help the person asking questions, only because they were female. We'll never know what it's like to walk into a room and *know* that the person in the room will take what we have to say as given without being challenged, because "girls can't know computers". (Just to use a highly used example of privilege)
That doesn't mean men are jerks for being men. That doesn't mean I hate men or wish I was a man. It just means that I'm less likely to be taken seriously, and have to work harder to know what I'm talking about.
And your're right, these kids are highly intelligent and deserve the credit and the help, but they couldn't do it without the help of my friend. They are privileged that she can help them, because she can't help them all.
I think we're really saying the same things, just using different words to say it. (And as I said, I like to type!)
Privilege is just a fancy word for "luck of the draw/gift" and a lot of people don't seem to get that or like it. A lot of people also look at their life and think "I sure haven't had it easy, there's no way I've got any privilege", without understanding that we don't mean EASY, we just mean "more likely to be easier".
Language is not precise, and we're always coming up with ways to make it more precise, and without understanding the precision meant, miscommunication happens.4 -
WorkerDrone83 wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »WorkerDrone83 wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »WorkerDrone83 wrote: »Wow, I did not expect to be in the minority on this one. That's a perfectly positive phrase and I've found it to be mostly true. The other variant I've heard once was "If someone REALLY wants to do something, that person is going to do it REALLY well." I'm not sure if intelligence, dedication, and strong work ethic counts as 'privilege.'
There are an awful lot of other privileges, the lack of which can make achieving the promise of this phrase logistically improbable.
Besides the fact that the bolded are not privileges...
Depends on who you ask.
No...
Yeah, it does. Many people assert that the ability/willingness to hustle and keep at something are a sign of privilege.
Whoa, this blows my mind. I don't mean to put you on the spot, but how is not being a lazy quitter a privilege?
There's a big yawning gulf of a spectrum between being a lazy quitter and being a dedicated hustler.
At some places on that spectrum, things like physical and mental disabilities can impact one's ability and or willingness to hustle. Not having such a physical or mental impairment is privilege.
Respectfully disagree. The absence of disabilities should not be viewed as privilege, unless we're using a really loose definition of privilege where a vast majority of people qualify.
All this talk of privilege is getting old. So people have some advantages that others don't. That's life. A lot of us weren't born with silver spoons in our mouths, but that doesn't hold us back from success or reaching our goals. Seems like more of an excuse than an explanation.
As for the phrase in question, is it really so bad to offer up optimistic hope when people really can do things they think are impossible? Perhaps people really just don't want to see the flip-side of the coin, that if they don't reach their goals it's their own fault.
But it IS a privilege to be able to climb stairs, walk up an inline, walk across uneven ground without falling, kneel on the floor, and climb ladders. The difficulty setting on the video game of life for the majority of people is set much lower than it is for some, and that's all that privilege is: how hard is your life based on the luck of draw when you were born.
My video game level is set up to be very easy in many ways. I'm very solidly middle class, I live in a first world country, I'm white, I'm taller than average, I'm educated and smart. I have a car, a smartphone, a large house, enough food, and don't have to work because my husband earns a lot of money, I have excellent health insurance. I'm young, but that will change with time.
My video game level is set up to be harder than others in a lot of ways too. I'm female, I'm fat (I'm working on that though), I'm unhealthy (some of this can be fixed, my diabetes will go into remission - my mental illness never will), I have moderately severe mental illness that does severely affect my quality of life (such as being able to hold down a job), I am not neurotypical, I have a birth defect in my knee limiting my ability to walk/climb stairs/hills/ladders, I have PTSD.
I will not likely by pulled over by the police for no reason because I'm white, but I am more likely to be sexually assaulted because I'm female. I lack the able-bodied privilege, but I have yet to be in a wheelchair so I have more privilege than some.
Everyone has privileges and disprivileges. Some have more privileges than others though. These privileges open up the opportunities that are given to us in life. It's not an excuse, it's a fact of life.
A friend works in the Dallas school district working with underprivileged children and helping them get to college. Without her intervention and VERY hard work, these children would not be able to jump through the hoops to take advantage of the opportunities that are there. These children are often the first in their family to go to college, and are not privileged enough to know where to start to apply for school. Even community college is out of reach for them, without her influence. Because of her, they are able to do the impossible. She uses HER privilege to give OTHERS privilege. But it's still privilege.
Because I grew up in a middle class family, I was expected, encouraged, and financially able to go to college, and thus able to marry into a middle class family. Because my husband has a good degree and a good job, we are now an upper middle class family. That opportunity would not have been mine had my father been a factory worker instead of a school teacher. I would not have met my husband had I not gone to college and pursued the major I chose, because he went to a different church.
From a practical perspective, she's harming these children and their families. Jumping multiple Maslow levels at once objectively causes harm, and does not bring the desired enduring benefit.
Unless she's working with them starting around the 4th or 6th grade, just attending college will not give them any benefit except to steal time and resources from them that could be better directed in other directions.
It's not her fault, or yours that her privilege doesn't allow her to recognize and address the real needs of this community.2 -
stanmann571 wrote: »WorkerDrone83 wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »WorkerDrone83 wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »WorkerDrone83 wrote: »Wow, I did not expect to be in the minority on this one. That's a perfectly positive phrase and I've found it to be mostly true. The other variant I've heard once was "If someone REALLY wants to do something, that person is going to do it REALLY well." I'm not sure if intelligence, dedication, and strong work ethic counts as 'privilege.'
There are an awful lot of other privileges, the lack of which can make achieving the promise of this phrase logistically improbable.
Besides the fact that the bolded are not privileges...
Depends on who you ask.
No...
Yeah, it does. Many people assert that the ability/willingness to hustle and keep at something are a sign of privilege.
Whoa, this blows my mind. I don't mean to put you on the spot, but how is not being a lazy quitter a privilege?
There's a big yawning gulf of a spectrum between being a lazy quitter and being a dedicated hustler.
At some places on that spectrum, things like physical and mental disabilities can impact one's ability and or willingness to hustle. Not having such a physical or mental impairment is privilege.
Respectfully disagree. The absence of disabilities should not be viewed as privilege, unless we're using a really loose definition of privilege where a vast majority of people qualify.
All this talk of privilege is getting old. So people have some advantages that others don't. That's life. A lot of us weren't born with silver spoons in our mouths, but that doesn't hold us back from success or reaching our goals. Seems like more of an excuse than an explanation.
As for the phrase in question, is it really so bad to offer up optimistic hope when people really can do things they think are impossible? Perhaps people really just don't want to see the flip-side of the coin, that if they don't reach their goals it's their own fault.
But it IS a privilege to be able to climb stairs, walk up an inline, walk across uneven ground without falling, kneel on the floor, and climb ladders. The difficulty setting on the video game of life for the majority of people is set much lower than it is for some, and that's all that privilege is: how hard is your life based on the luck of draw when you were born.
My video game level is set up to be very easy in many ways. I'm very solidly middle class, I live in a first world country, I'm white, I'm taller than average, I'm educated and smart. I have a car, a smartphone, a large house, enough food, and don't have to work because my husband earns a lot of money, I have excellent health insurance. I'm young, but that will change with time.
My video game level is set up to be harder than others in a lot of ways too. I'm female, I'm fat (I'm working on that though), I'm unhealthy (some of this can be fixed, my diabetes will go into remission - my mental illness never will), I have moderately severe mental illness that does severely affect my quality of life (such as being able to hold down a job), I am not neurotypical, I have a birth defect in my knee limiting my ability to walk/climb stairs/hills/ladders, I have PTSD.
I will not likely by pulled over by the police for no reason because I'm white, but I am more likely to be sexually assaulted because I'm female. I lack the able-bodied privilege, but I have yet to be in a wheelchair so I have more privilege than some.
Everyone has privileges and disprivileges. Some have more privileges than others though. These privileges open up the opportunities that are given to us in life. It's not an excuse, it's a fact of life.
A friend works in the Dallas school district working with underprivileged children and helping them get to college. Without her intervention and VERY hard work, these children would not be able to jump through the hoops to take advantage of the opportunities that are there. These children are often the first in their family to go to college, and are not privileged enough to know where to start to apply for school. Even community college is out of reach for them, without her influence. Because of her, they are able to do the impossible. She uses HER privilege to give OTHERS privilege. But it's still privilege.
Because I grew up in a middle class family, I was expected, encouraged, and financially able to go to college, and thus able to marry into a middle class family. Because my husband has a good degree and a good job, we are now an upper middle class family. That opportunity would not have been mine had my father been a factory worker instead of a school teacher. I would not have met my husband had I not gone to college and pursued the major I chose, because he went to a different church.
From a practical perspective, she's harming these children and their families. Jumping multiple Maslow levels at once objectively causes harm, and does not bring the desired enduring benefit.
Unless she's working with them starting around the 4th or 6th grade, just attending college will not give them any benefit except to steal time and resources from them that could be better directed in other directions.
It's not her fault, or yours that her privilege doesn't allow her to recognize and address the real needs of this community.
Please explain how being the first in your family to go to college is "jumping multiple Maslow levels." (Note: Yes, I'm familiar with the hierarchy of needs.)0 -
clicketykeys wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »WorkerDrone83 wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »WorkerDrone83 wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »WorkerDrone83 wrote: »Wow, I did not expect to be in the minority on this one. That's a perfectly positive phrase and I've found it to be mostly true. The other variant I've heard once was "If someone REALLY wants to do something, that person is going to do it REALLY well." I'm not sure if intelligence, dedication, and strong work ethic counts as 'privilege.'
There are an awful lot of other privileges, the lack of which can make achieving the promise of this phrase logistically improbable.
Besides the fact that the bolded are not privileges...
Depends on who you ask.
No...
Yeah, it does. Many people assert that the ability/willingness to hustle and keep at something are a sign of privilege.
Whoa, this blows my mind. I don't mean to put you on the spot, but how is not being a lazy quitter a privilege?
There's a big yawning gulf of a spectrum between being a lazy quitter and being a dedicated hustler.
At some places on that spectrum, things like physical and mental disabilities can impact one's ability and or willingness to hustle. Not having such a physical or mental impairment is privilege.
Respectfully disagree. The absence of disabilities should not be viewed as privilege, unless we're using a really loose definition of privilege where a vast majority of people qualify.
All this talk of privilege is getting old. So people have some advantages that others don't. That's life. A lot of us weren't born with silver spoons in our mouths, but that doesn't hold us back from success or reaching our goals. Seems like more of an excuse than an explanation.
As for the phrase in question, is it really so bad to offer up optimistic hope when people really can do things they think are impossible? Perhaps people really just don't want to see the flip-side of the coin, that if they don't reach their goals it's their own fault.
But it IS a privilege to be able to climb stairs, walk up an inline, walk across uneven ground without falling, kneel on the floor, and climb ladders. The difficulty setting on the video game of life for the majority of people is set much lower than it is for some, and that's all that privilege is: how hard is your life based on the luck of draw when you were born.
My video game level is set up to be very easy in many ways. I'm very solidly middle class, I live in a first world country, I'm white, I'm taller than average, I'm educated and smart. I have a car, a smartphone, a large house, enough food, and don't have to work because my husband earns a lot of money, I have excellent health insurance. I'm young, but that will change with time.
My video game level is set up to be harder than others in a lot of ways too. I'm female, I'm fat (I'm working on that though), I'm unhealthy (some of this can be fixed, my diabetes will go into remission - my mental illness never will), I have moderately severe mental illness that does severely affect my quality of life (such as being able to hold down a job), I am not neurotypical, I have a birth defect in my knee limiting my ability to walk/climb stairs/hills/ladders, I have PTSD.
I will not likely by pulled over by the police for no reason because I'm white, but I am more likely to be sexually assaulted because I'm female. I lack the able-bodied privilege, but I have yet to be in a wheelchair so I have more privilege than some.
Everyone has privileges and disprivileges. Some have more privileges than others though. These privileges open up the opportunities that are given to us in life. It's not an excuse, it's a fact of life.
A friend works in the Dallas school district working with underprivileged children and helping them get to college. Without her intervention and VERY hard work, these children would not be able to jump through the hoops to take advantage of the opportunities that are there. These children are often the first in their family to go to college, and are not privileged enough to know where to start to apply for school. Even community college is out of reach for them, without her influence. Because of her, they are able to do the impossible. She uses HER privilege to give OTHERS privilege. But it's still privilege.
Because I grew up in a middle class family, I was expected, encouraged, and financially able to go to college, and thus able to marry into a middle class family. Because my husband has a good degree and a good job, we are now an upper middle class family. That opportunity would not have been mine had my father been a factory worker instead of a school teacher. I would not have met my husband had I not gone to college and pursued the major I chose, because he went to a different church.
From a practical perspective, she's harming these children and their families. Jumping multiple Maslow levels at once objectively causes harm, and does not bring the desired enduring benefit.
Unless she's working with them starting around the 4th or 6th grade, just attending college will not give them any benefit except to steal time and resources from them that could be better directed in other directions.
It's not her fault, or yours that her privilege doesn't allow her to recognize and address the real needs of this community.
Please explain how being the first in your family to go to college is "jumping multiple Maslow levels." (Note: Yes, I'm familiar with the hierarchy of needs.)
This.
The children that she's helped have gone on to graduate, some from ivy league institutions, with honors and now have very promising careers. These children are not the underachievers in school that she's scooping up from the bottom of the class and forcing into college, these are children that have the grades to get into Harvard with scholarships, but only lack the skills to know how to file a FASFA, apply for student aid, and so forth. They have worked for many years for the ability to go to college, and deserve these chances.
All their Maslow needs are met, they are just poor. She gives them a needed a leg up to reach the stars and their potential. I'm sorry you can't see that.1 -
WorkerDrone83 wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »WorkerDrone83 wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »WorkerDrone83 wrote: »Wow, I did not expect to be in the minority on this one. That's a perfectly positive phrase and I've found it to be mostly true. The other variant I've heard once was "If someone REALLY wants to do something, that person is going to do it REALLY well." I'm not sure if intelligence, dedication, and strong work ethic counts as 'privilege.'
There are an awful lot of other privileges, the lack of which can make achieving the promise of this phrase logistically improbable.
Besides the fact that the bolded are not privileges...
Depends on who you ask.
No...
Yeah, it does. Many people assert that the ability/willingness to hustle and keep at something are a sign of privilege.
Whoa, this blows my mind. I don't mean to put you on the spot, but how is not being a lazy quitter a privilege?
There's a big yawning gulf of a spectrum between being a lazy quitter and being a dedicated hustler.
At some places on that spectrum, things like physical and mental disabilities can impact one's ability and or willingness to hustle. Not having such a physical or mental impairment is privilege.
Respectfully disagree. The absence of disabilities should not be viewed as privilege, unless we're using a really loose definition of privilege where a vast majority of people qualify.
All this talk of privilege is getting old. So people have some advantages that others don't. That's life. A lot of us weren't born with silver spoons in our mouths, but that doesn't hold us back from success or reaching our goals. Seems like more of an excuse than an explanation.
As for the phrase in question, is it really so bad to offer up optimistic hope when people really can do things they think are impossible? Perhaps people really just don't want to see the flip-side of the coin, that if they don't reach their goals it's their own fault.
You just don't like the word privilege. Advantage is a synonym for privilege.priv·i·lege
ˈpriv(ə)lij/Submit
noun
1.
a special right, advantage, or immunity granted or available only to a particular person or group of people.
"education is a right, not a privilege"
synonyms: advantage, benefit; More
Illness is not an excuse, and I'm not making one. How you thought I was when I said I overcame walking with a cane to becoming a runner is beyond me.
However, I have limitations. That's a fact of my illness because it's trashed my joints to a certain point.
Someone with untrashed joints has advantages I don't have, and that's fine, and I don't have issue with that.
All I'm saying that means is that there are things that all the striving and wanting and thirsting and being hungry to do... I'll never be able to do them. There are limits. My limits fall short of where someone who doesn't have my disease's limits are.
Not being diseased is an advantage I don't have in the "nothing is impossible" game.
This is why I think the statement is too pat. Yes, some things are impossible for some people. That doesn't mean that I don't think I shouldn't go to my limits and just give up. I certainly didn't give up when I was walking with a cane. I fought back like hell.
So don't write me off as an excuse maker. I'm just a realist.3 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »WorkerDrone83 wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »WorkerDrone83 wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »WorkerDrone83 wrote: »Wow, I did not expect to be in the minority on this one. That's a perfectly positive phrase and I've found it to be mostly true. The other variant I've heard once was "If someone REALLY wants to do something, that person is going to do it REALLY well." I'm not sure if intelligence, dedication, and strong work ethic counts as 'privilege.'
There are an awful lot of other privileges, the lack of which can make achieving the promise of this phrase logistically improbable.
Besides the fact that the bolded are not privileges...
Depends on who you ask.
No...
Yeah, it does. Many people assert that the ability/willingness to hustle and keep at something are a sign of privilege.
Whoa, this blows my mind. I don't mean to put you on the spot, but how is not being a lazy quitter a privilege?
There's a big yawning gulf of a spectrum between being a lazy quitter and being a dedicated hustler.
At some places on that spectrum, things like physical and mental disabilities can impact one's ability and or willingness to hustle. Not having such a physical or mental impairment is privilege.
Respectfully disagree. The absence of disabilities should not be viewed as privilege, unless we're using a really loose definition of privilege where a vast majority of people qualify.
All this talk of privilege is getting old. So people have some advantages that others don't. That's life. A lot of us weren't born with silver spoons in our mouths, but that doesn't hold us back from success or reaching our goals. Seems like more of an excuse than an explanation.
As for the phrase in question, is it really so bad to offer up optimistic hope when people really can do things they think are impossible? Perhaps people really just don't want to see the flip-side of the coin, that if they don't reach their goals it's their own fault.
You just don't like the word privilege. Advantage is a synonym for privilege.priv·i·lege
ˈpriv(ə)lij/Submit
noun
1.
a special right, advantage, or immunity granted or available only to a particular person or group of people.
"education is a right, not a privilege"
synonyms: advantage, benefit; More
Unfortunately the word privilege has become politicized, so when you use it some people think you are angling for freebies they can't get because they're "privileged".
I was raised to be grateful for every morning I wake up with 4 limbs, eyesight, and hearing and to go out of my way for people who carry burdens I don't have to. Sadly, it's popular now to assume anyone who can't carry their burdens gracefully is lazy and that helping them, weakens them. I have seen for myself that ironically, it often motivates them to work hard to reach goals they previously thought were impossible
5 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »WorkerDrone83 wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »WorkerDrone83 wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »WorkerDrone83 wrote: »Wow, I did not expect to be in the minority on this one. That's a perfectly positive phrase and I've found it to be mostly true. The other variant I've heard once was "If someone REALLY wants to do something, that person is going to do it REALLY well." I'm not sure if intelligence, dedication, and strong work ethic counts as 'privilege.'
There are an awful lot of other privileges, the lack of which can make achieving the promise of this phrase logistically improbable.
Besides the fact that the bolded are not privileges...
Depends on who you ask.
No...
Yeah, it does. Many people assert that the ability/willingness to hustle and keep at something are a sign of privilege.
Whoa, this blows my mind. I don't mean to put you on the spot, but how is not being a lazy quitter a privilege?
There's a big yawning gulf of a spectrum between being a lazy quitter and being a dedicated hustler.
At some places on that spectrum, things like physical and mental disabilities can impact one's ability and or willingness to hustle. Not having such a physical or mental impairment is privilege.
Respectfully disagree. The absence of disabilities should not be viewed as privilege, unless we're using a really loose definition of privilege where a vast majority of people qualify.
All this talk of privilege is getting old. So people have some advantages that others don't. That's life. A lot of us weren't born with silver spoons in our mouths, but that doesn't hold us back from success or reaching our goals. Seems like more of an excuse than an explanation.
As for the phrase in question, is it really so bad to offer up optimistic hope when people really can do things they think are impossible? Perhaps people really just don't want to see the flip-side of the coin, that if they don't reach their goals it's their own fault.
You just don't like the word privilege. Advantage is a synonym for privilege.priv·i·lege
ˈpriv(ə)lij/Submit
noun
1.
a special right, advantage, or immunity granted or available only to a particular person or group of people.
"education is a right, not a privilege"
synonyms: advantage, benefit; More
Unfortunately the word privilege has become politicized, so when you use it some people think you are angling for freebies they can't get because they're "privileged".
I was raised to be grateful for every morning I wake up with 4 limbs, eyesight, and hearing and to go out of my way for people who carry burdens I don't have to. Sadly, it's popular now to assume anyone who can't carry their burdens gracefully is lazy and that helping them, weakens them. I have seen for myself that ironically, it often motivates them to work hard to reach goals they previously thought were impossible
Oh, I'm quite aware that social justice warriors have taken that word and twisted it and used it to death, but I really don't care.
I too was raised with an attitude of gratitude.
That is why I consider good things privileges, and always have, long before the word was used and misused in current terms. I won't let people's current sensitivities about it change how I'm using it. It is a privilege, in the real sense of the word to have health, and food security, and an education, and intelligence, and a roof over your head.
I feel privileged, in many ways to have accomplished what I have accomplished with my illness. Many other people who have it don't fare as well.
I won't let other people co-opt a perfectly good word.
ETA: If anyone wants a good chuckle, these values weren't just instilled at home. I went through 12 years of Catholic school. Those nuns told us we ought to feel blessed we had anything we had!2 -
clicketykeys wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »WorkerDrone83 wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »WorkerDrone83 wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »WorkerDrone83 wrote: »Wow, I did not expect to be in the minority on this one. That's a perfectly positive phrase and I've found it to be mostly true. The other variant I've heard once was "If someone REALLY wants to do something, that person is going to do it REALLY well." I'm not sure if intelligence, dedication, and strong work ethic counts as 'privilege.'
There are an awful lot of other privileges, the lack of which can make achieving the promise of this phrase logistically improbable.
Besides the fact that the bolded are not privileges...
Depends on who you ask.
No...
Yeah, it does. Many people assert that the ability/willingness to hustle and keep at something are a sign of privilege.
Whoa, this blows my mind. I don't mean to put you on the spot, but how is not being a lazy quitter a privilege?
There's a big yawning gulf of a spectrum between being a lazy quitter and being a dedicated hustler.
At some places on that spectrum, things like physical and mental disabilities can impact one's ability and or willingness to hustle. Not having such a physical or mental impairment is privilege.
Respectfully disagree. The absence of disabilities should not be viewed as privilege, unless we're using a really loose definition of privilege where a vast majority of people qualify.
All this talk of privilege is getting old. So people have some advantages that others don't. That's life. A lot of us weren't born with silver spoons in our mouths, but that doesn't hold us back from success or reaching our goals. Seems like more of an excuse than an explanation.
As for the phrase in question, is it really so bad to offer up optimistic hope when people really can do things they think are impossible? Perhaps people really just don't want to see the flip-side of the coin, that if they don't reach their goals it's their own fault.
But it IS a privilege to be able to climb stairs, walk up an inline, walk across uneven ground without falling, kneel on the floor, and climb ladders. The difficulty setting on the video game of life for the majority of people is set much lower than it is for some, and that's all that privilege is: how hard is your life based on the luck of draw when you were born.
My video game level is set up to be very easy in many ways. I'm very solidly middle class, I live in a first world country, I'm white, I'm taller than average, I'm educated and smart. I have a car, a smartphone, a large house, enough food, and don't have to work because my husband earns a lot of money, I have excellent health insurance. I'm young, but that will change with time.
My video game level is set up to be harder than others in a lot of ways too. I'm female, I'm fat (I'm working on that though), I'm unhealthy (some of this can be fixed, my diabetes will go into remission - my mental illness never will), I have moderately severe mental illness that does severely affect my quality of life (such as being able to hold down a job), I am not neurotypical, I have a birth defect in my knee limiting my ability to walk/climb stairs/hills/ladders, I have PTSD.
I will not likely by pulled over by the police for no reason because I'm white, but I am more likely to be sexually assaulted because I'm female. I lack the able-bodied privilege, but I have yet to be in a wheelchair so I have more privilege than some.
Everyone has privileges and disprivileges. Some have more privileges than others though. These privileges open up the opportunities that are given to us in life. It's not an excuse, it's a fact of life.
A friend works in the Dallas school district working with underprivileged children and helping them get to college. Without her intervention and VERY hard work, these children would not be able to jump through the hoops to take advantage of the opportunities that are there. These children are often the first in their family to go to college, and are not privileged enough to know where to start to apply for school. Even community college is out of reach for them, without her influence. Because of her, they are able to do the impossible. She uses HER privilege to give OTHERS privilege. But it's still privilege.
Because I grew up in a middle class family, I was expected, encouraged, and financially able to go to college, and thus able to marry into a middle class family. Because my husband has a good degree and a good job, we are now an upper middle class family. That opportunity would not have been mine had my father been a factory worker instead of a school teacher. I would not have met my husband had I not gone to college and pursued the major I chose, because he went to a different church.
From a practical perspective, she's harming these children and their families. Jumping multiple Maslow levels at once objectively causes harm, and does not bring the desired enduring benefit.
Unless she's working with them starting around the 4th or 6th grade, just attending college will not give them any benefit except to steal time and resources from them that could be better directed in other directions.
It's not her fault, or yours that her privilege doesn't allow her to recognize and address the real needs of this community.
Please explain how being the first in your family to go to college is "jumping multiple Maslow levels." (Note: Yes, I'm familiar with the hierarchy of needs.)
This.
The children that she's helped have gone on to graduate, some from ivy league institutions, with honors and now have very promising careers. These children are not the underachievers in school that she's scooping up from the bottom of the class and forcing into college, these are children that have the grades to get into Harvard with scholarships, but only lack the skills to know how to file a FASFA, apply for student aid, and so forth. They have worked for many years for the ability to go to college, and deserve these chances.
All their Maslow needs are met, they are just poor. She gives them a needed a leg up to reach the stars and their potential. I'm sorry you can't see that.
So she's a guidance counselor.1 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »WorkerDrone83 wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »WorkerDrone83 wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »WorkerDrone83 wrote: »Wow, I did not expect to be in the minority on this one. That's a perfectly positive phrase and I've found it to be mostly true. The other variant I've heard once was "If someone REALLY wants to do something, that person is going to do it REALLY well." I'm not sure if intelligence, dedication, and strong work ethic counts as 'privilege.'
There are an awful lot of other privileges, the lack of which can make achieving the promise of this phrase logistically improbable.
Besides the fact that the bolded are not privileges...
Depends on who you ask.
No...
Yeah, it does. Many people assert that the ability/willingness to hustle and keep at something are a sign of privilege.
Whoa, this blows my mind. I don't mean to put you on the spot, but how is not being a lazy quitter a privilege?
There's a big yawning gulf of a spectrum between being a lazy quitter and being a dedicated hustler.
At some places on that spectrum, things like physical and mental disabilities can impact one's ability and or willingness to hustle. Not having such a physical or mental impairment is privilege.
Respectfully disagree. The absence of disabilities should not be viewed as privilege, unless we're using a really loose definition of privilege where a vast majority of people qualify.
All this talk of privilege is getting old. So people have some advantages that others don't. That's life. A lot of us weren't born with silver spoons in our mouths, but that doesn't hold us back from success or reaching our goals. Seems like more of an excuse than an explanation.
As for the phrase in question, is it really so bad to offer up optimistic hope when people really can do things they think are impossible? Perhaps people really just don't want to see the flip-side of the coin, that if they don't reach their goals it's their own fault.
You just don't like the word privilege. Advantage is a synonym for privilege.priv·i·lege
ˈpriv(ə)lij/Submit
noun
1.
a special right, advantage, or immunity granted or available only to a particular person or group of people.
"education is a right, not a privilege"
synonyms: advantage, benefit; More
Illness is not an excuse, and I'm not making one. How you thought I was when I said I overcame walking with a cane to becoming a runner is beyond me.
However, I have limitations. That's a fact of my illness because it's trashed my joints to a certain point.
Someone with untrashed joints has advantages I don't have, and that's fine, and I don't have issue with that.
All I'm saying that means is that there are things that all the striving and wanting and thirsting and being hungry to do... I'll never be able to do them. There are limits. My limits fall short of where someone who doesn't have my disease's limits are.
Not being diseased is an advantage I don't have in the "nothing is impossible" game.
This is why I think the statement is too pat. Yes, some things are impossible for some people. That doesn't mean that I don't think I shouldn't go to my limits and just give up. I certainly didn't give up when I was walking with a cane. I fought back like hell.
So don't write me off as an excuse maker. I'm just a realist.
I was actually using the very same definition for privilege (thank you Google) I see you're focusing on the word "advantage." I was focusing on "special right" and "available only to a particular person or group."
I'm fairly sure I wasn't saying that you, specifically, were making excuses. Honestly the thought didn't cross my mind, so I'm sorry if I was sloppy in my communication.
If you've already accepted something as impossible, you've essentially given up. Maybe the cure for what ails you hasn't been discovered yet and won't be in our lifetime. But maybe it will.
1 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »WorkerDrone83 wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »WorkerDrone83 wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »WorkerDrone83 wrote: »Wow, I did not expect to be in the minority on this one. That's a perfectly positive phrase and I've found it to be mostly true. The other variant I've heard once was "If someone REALLY wants to do something, that person is going to do it REALLY well." I'm not sure if intelligence, dedication, and strong work ethic counts as 'privilege.'
There are an awful lot of other privileges, the lack of which can make achieving the promise of this phrase logistically improbable.
Besides the fact that the bolded are not privileges...
Depends on who you ask.
No...
Yeah, it does. Many people assert that the ability/willingness to hustle and keep at something are a sign of privilege.
Whoa, this blows my mind. I don't mean to put you on the spot, but how is not being a lazy quitter a privilege?
There's a big yawning gulf of a spectrum between being a lazy quitter and being a dedicated hustler.
At some places on that spectrum, things like physical and mental disabilities can impact one's ability and or willingness to hustle. Not having such a physical or mental impairment is privilege.
Respectfully disagree. The absence of disabilities should not be viewed as privilege, unless we're using a really loose definition of privilege where a vast majority of people qualify.
All this talk of privilege is getting old. So people have some advantages that others don't. That's life. A lot of us weren't born with silver spoons in our mouths, but that doesn't hold us back from success or reaching our goals. Seems like more of an excuse than an explanation.
As for the phrase in question, is it really so bad to offer up optimistic hope when people really can do things they think are impossible? Perhaps people really just don't want to see the flip-side of the coin, that if they don't reach their goals it's their own fault.
You just don't like the word privilege. Advantage is a synonym for privilege.priv·i·lege
ˈpriv(ə)lij/Submit
noun
1.
a special right, advantage, or immunity granted or available only to a particular person or group of people.
"education is a right, not a privilege"
synonyms: advantage, benefit; More
Unfortunately the word privilege has become politicized, so when you use it some people think you are angling for freebies they can't get because they're "privileged".
I was raised to be grateful for every morning I wake up with 4 limbs, eyesight, and hearing and to go out of my way for people who carry burdens I don't have to. Sadly, it's popular now to assume anyone who can't carry their burdens gracefully is lazy and that helping them, weakens them. I have seen for myself that ironically, it often motivates them to work hard to reach goals they previously thought were impossible
Oh, I'm quite aware that social justice warriors have taken that word and twisted it and used it to death, but I really don't care.
I too was raised with an attitude of gratitude.
That is why I consider good things privileges, and always have, long before the word was used and misused in current terms. I won't let people's current sensitivities about it change how I'm using it. It is a privilege, in the real sense of the word to have health, and food security, and an education, and intelligence, and a roof over your head.
I feel privileged, in many ways to have accomplished what I have accomplished with my illness. Many other people who have it don't fare as well.
I won't let other people co-opt a perfectly good word.
ETA: If anyone wants a good chuckle, these values weren't just instilled at home. I went through 12 years of Catholic school. Those nuns told us we ought to feel blessed we had anything we had!
I have not only been fortunately healthy, I've known mostly other people who are equally blessed. One of the most valuable things I've learned on this forum are how many people are out there dealing with autoimmune conditions, food allergies, and all manner of chronic injuries and illness and how it affects their lives (and many of them look better in their gym clothes than I do). Which made me realize that if the receptionist at work or the guy in front of me in line at the grocery store were dealing with any of that, I wouldn't even know.1 -
stanmann571 wrote: »clicketykeys wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »WorkerDrone83 wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »WorkerDrone83 wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »WorkerDrone83 wrote: »Wow, I did not expect to be in the minority on this one. That's a perfectly positive phrase and I've found it to be mostly true. The other variant I've heard once was "If someone REALLY wants to do something, that person is going to do it REALLY well." I'm not sure if intelligence, dedication, and strong work ethic counts as 'privilege.'
There are an awful lot of other privileges, the lack of which can make achieving the promise of this phrase logistically improbable.
Besides the fact that the bolded are not privileges...
Depends on who you ask.
No...
Yeah, it does. Many people assert that the ability/willingness to hustle and keep at something are a sign of privilege.
Whoa, this blows my mind. I don't mean to put you on the spot, but how is not being a lazy quitter a privilege?
There's a big yawning gulf of a spectrum between being a lazy quitter and being a dedicated hustler.
At some places on that spectrum, things like physical and mental disabilities can impact one's ability and or willingness to hustle. Not having such a physical or mental impairment is privilege.
Respectfully disagree. The absence of disabilities should not be viewed as privilege, unless we're using a really loose definition of privilege where a vast majority of people qualify.
All this talk of privilege is getting old. So people have some advantages that others don't. That's life. A lot of us weren't born with silver spoons in our mouths, but that doesn't hold us back from success or reaching our goals. Seems like more of an excuse than an explanation.
As for the phrase in question, is it really so bad to offer up optimistic hope when people really can do things they think are impossible? Perhaps people really just don't want to see the flip-side of the coin, that if they don't reach their goals it's their own fault.
But it IS a privilege to be able to climb stairs, walk up an inline, walk across uneven ground without falling, kneel on the floor, and climb ladders. The difficulty setting on the video game of life for the majority of people is set much lower than it is for some, and that's all that privilege is: how hard is your life based on the luck of draw when you were born.
My video game level is set up to be very easy in many ways. I'm very solidly middle class, I live in a first world country, I'm white, I'm taller than average, I'm educated and smart. I have a car, a smartphone, a large house, enough food, and don't have to work because my husband earns a lot of money, I have excellent health insurance. I'm young, but that will change with time.
My video game level is set up to be harder than others in a lot of ways too. I'm female, I'm fat (I'm working on that though), I'm unhealthy (some of this can be fixed, my diabetes will go into remission - my mental illness never will), I have moderately severe mental illness that does severely affect my quality of life (such as being able to hold down a job), I am not neurotypical, I have a birth defect in my knee limiting my ability to walk/climb stairs/hills/ladders, I have PTSD.
I will not likely by pulled over by the police for no reason because I'm white, but I am more likely to be sexually assaulted because I'm female. I lack the able-bodied privilege, but I have yet to be in a wheelchair so I have more privilege than some.
Everyone has privileges and disprivileges. Some have more privileges than others though. These privileges open up the opportunities that are given to us in life. It's not an excuse, it's a fact of life.
A friend works in the Dallas school district working with underprivileged children and helping them get to college. Without her intervention and VERY hard work, these children would not be able to jump through the hoops to take advantage of the opportunities that are there. These children are often the first in their family to go to college, and are not privileged enough to know where to start to apply for school. Even community college is out of reach for them, without her influence. Because of her, they are able to do the impossible. She uses HER privilege to give OTHERS privilege. But it's still privilege.
Because I grew up in a middle class family, I was expected, encouraged, and financially able to go to college, and thus able to marry into a middle class family. Because my husband has a good degree and a good job, we are now an upper middle class family. That opportunity would not have been mine had my father been a factory worker instead of a school teacher. I would not have met my husband had I not gone to college and pursued the major I chose, because he went to a different church.
From a practical perspective, she's harming these children and their families. Jumping multiple Maslow levels at once objectively causes harm, and does not bring the desired enduring benefit.
Unless she's working with them starting around the 4th or 6th grade, just attending college will not give them any benefit except to steal time and resources from them that could be better directed in other directions.
It's not her fault, or yours that her privilege doesn't allow her to recognize and address the real needs of this community.
Please explain how being the first in your family to go to college is "jumping multiple Maslow levels." (Note: Yes, I'm familiar with the hierarchy of needs.)
This.
The children that she's helped have gone on to graduate, some from ivy league institutions, with honors and now have very promising careers. These children are not the underachievers in school that she's scooping up from the bottom of the class and forcing into college, these are children that have the grades to get into Harvard with scholarships, but only lack the skills to know how to file a FASFA, apply for student aid, and so forth. They have worked for many years for the ability to go to college, and deserve these chances.
All their Maslow needs are met, they are just poor. She gives them a needed a leg up to reach the stars and their potential. I'm sorry you can't see that.
So she's a guidance counselor.
As I understand things (I may be misinformed, I was homeschooled (unfortunately, I was very unhappy there) so all I know of guidance counselors is what I've gleaned from the media, guidance counselors are typically limited to one school and service students of all socioeconomic statues. She works all over Dallas ISD and only works with the disadvantaged and often minority students.
Dallas has a huge problem with poverty, and her employer is part of a program designed to help lift families out of poverty through advanced schooling. She may be a guidance counselor, I honestly don't know, but only for a subset of children.0 -
WorkerDrone83 wrote: »What I don't agree with is the flagrant use of the term privilege. Are people who can walk supposed to feel like jerks because they have something that not everybody does? Should I feel resentful because I wasn't born with a trust fund?
If I acknowledge that I have some privileges that not everyone has (health being one) and have been lucky in some ways (if you prefer to call it that), that doesn't mean I'm calling myself a jerk or expecting others to feel resentful. You are sure imposing a lot on one word. It also does not mean that I think I haven't faced some hardships that not everyone has or had some struggles or had to work hard.
I think acknowledging and being grateful for the blessings I have (which, yes, can be called privileges) is basic human decency, and understanding that not everyone shares in them is basic empathy. Insisting that because you did something everyone obviously could if they weren't a lazy so and so seems to be the alternative.
I honestly don't even get what is currently being debated on this thread anymore.2 -
Also, it's still just factually untrue that everyone is possible if you just work hard enough. I don't personally feel that strongly about the saying (never heard it before this thread, lots of trite inspirations things are said), but since you brought up the whole false/true thing.3
-
WorkerDrone83 wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »WorkerDrone83 wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »WorkerDrone83 wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »WorkerDrone83 wrote: »Wow, I did not expect to be in the minority on this one. That's a perfectly positive phrase and I've found it to be mostly true. The other variant I've heard once was "If someone REALLY wants to do something, that person is going to do it REALLY well." I'm not sure if intelligence, dedication, and strong work ethic counts as 'privilege.'
There are an awful lot of other privileges, the lack of which can make achieving the promise of this phrase logistically improbable.
Besides the fact that the bolded are not privileges...
Depends on who you ask.
No...
Yeah, it does. Many people assert that the ability/willingness to hustle and keep at something are a sign of privilege.
Whoa, this blows my mind. I don't mean to put you on the spot, but how is not being a lazy quitter a privilege?
There's a big yawning gulf of a spectrum between being a lazy quitter and being a dedicated hustler.
At some places on that spectrum, things like physical and mental disabilities can impact one's ability and or willingness to hustle. Not having such a physical or mental impairment is privilege.
Respectfully disagree. The absence of disabilities should not be viewed as privilege, unless we're using a really loose definition of privilege where a vast majority of people qualify.
All this talk of privilege is getting old. So people have some advantages that others don't. That's life. A lot of us weren't born with silver spoons in our mouths, but that doesn't hold us back from success or reaching our goals. Seems like more of an excuse than an explanation.
As for the phrase in question, is it really so bad to offer up optimistic hope when people really can do things they think are impossible? Perhaps people really just don't want to see the flip-side of the coin, that if they don't reach their goals it's their own fault.
You just don't like the word privilege. Advantage is a synonym for privilege.priv·i·lege
ˈpriv(ə)lij/Submit
noun
1.
a special right, advantage, or immunity granted or available only to a particular person or group of people.
"education is a right, not a privilege"
synonyms: advantage, benefit; More
Illness is not an excuse, and I'm not making one. How you thought I was when I said I overcame walking with a cane to becoming a runner is beyond me.
However, I have limitations. That's a fact of my illness because it's trashed my joints to a certain point.
Someone with untrashed joints has advantages I don't have, and that's fine, and I don't have issue with that.
All I'm saying that means is that there are things that all the striving and wanting and thirsting and being hungry to do... I'll never be able to do them. There are limits. My limits fall short of where someone who doesn't have my disease's limits are.
Not being diseased is an advantage I don't have in the "nothing is impossible" game.
This is why I think the statement is too pat. Yes, some things are impossible for some people. That doesn't mean that I don't think I shouldn't go to my limits and just give up. I certainly didn't give up when I was walking with a cane. I fought back like hell.
So don't write me off as an excuse maker. I'm just a realist.
I was actually using the very same definition for privilege (thank you Google) I see you're focusing on the word "advantage." I was focusing on "special right" and "available only to a particular person or group."
I'm fairly sure I wasn't saying that you, specifically, were making excuses. Honestly the thought didn't cross my mind, so I'm sorry if I was sloppy in my communication.
If you've already accepted something as impossible, you've essentially given up. Maybe the cure for what ails you hasn't been discovered yet and won't be in our lifetime. But maybe it will.
I'm going to assume you didn't mean it as such, but the bolded is an incredibly cold thing to say to someone who just described how hard they have already worked to overcome a physical limitation.
Acknowledging your limitations and working hard to reach more appropriate goals is a far cry from giving up.4 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »WorkerDrone83 wrote: »What I don't agree with is the flagrant use of the term privilege. Are people who can walk supposed to feel like jerks because they have something that not everybody does? Should I feel resentful because I wasn't born with a trust fund?
If I acknowledge that I have some privileges that not everyone has (health being one) and have been lucky in some ways (if you prefer to call it that), that doesn't mean I'm calling myself a jerk or expecting others to feel resentful. You are sure imposing a lot on one word. It also does not mean that I think I haven't faced some hardships that not everyone has or had some struggles or had to work hard.
I think acknowledging and being grateful for the blessings I have (which, yes, can be called privileges) is basic human decency, and understanding that not everyone shares in them is basic empathy. Insisting that because you did something everyone obviously could if they weren't a lazy so and so seems to be the alternative.
I honestly don't even get what is currently being debated on this thread anymore.
LOL. I don't either. Especially since I'm in agreement with everything you just said. (With exception to the word empathy. I think sympathy is more applicable)0 -
I tend to take words at their exact meaning which isn't always a good thing. In this case, I could work really hard at running a 2 minute mile but I am 54 years old and I have COPD. So...But I do appreciate the positive attitude behind it.4
-
WorkerDrone83 wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »WorkerDrone83 wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »WorkerDrone83 wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »WorkerDrone83 wrote: »Wow, I did not expect to be in the minority on this one. That's a perfectly positive phrase and I've found it to be mostly true. The other variant I've heard once was "If someone REALLY wants to do something, that person is going to do it REALLY well." I'm not sure if intelligence, dedication, and strong work ethic counts as 'privilege.'
There are an awful lot of other privileges, the lack of which can make achieving the promise of this phrase logistically improbable.
Besides the fact that the bolded are not privileges...
Depends on who you ask.
No...
Yeah, it does. Many people assert that the ability/willingness to hustle and keep at something are a sign of privilege.
Whoa, this blows my mind. I don't mean to put you on the spot, but how is not being a lazy quitter a privilege?
There's a big yawning gulf of a spectrum between being a lazy quitter and being a dedicated hustler.
At some places on that spectrum, things like physical and mental disabilities can impact one's ability and or willingness to hustle. Not having such a physical or mental impairment is privilege.
Respectfully disagree. The absence of disabilities should not be viewed as privilege, unless we're using a really loose definition of privilege where a vast majority of people qualify.
All this talk of privilege is getting old. So people have some advantages that others don't. That's life. A lot of us weren't born with silver spoons in our mouths, but that doesn't hold us back from success or reaching our goals. Seems like more of an excuse than an explanation.
As for the phrase in question, is it really so bad to offer up optimistic hope when people really can do things they think are impossible? Perhaps people really just don't want to see the flip-side of the coin, that if they don't reach their goals it's their own fault.
You just don't like the word privilege. Advantage is a synonym for privilege.priv·i·lege
ˈpriv(ə)lij/Submit
noun
1.
a special right, advantage, or immunity granted or available only to a particular person or group of people.
"education is a right, not a privilege"
synonyms: advantage, benefit; More
Illness is not an excuse, and I'm not making one. How you thought I was when I said I overcame walking with a cane to becoming a runner is beyond me.
However, I have limitations. That's a fact of my illness because it's trashed my joints to a certain point.
Someone with untrashed joints has advantages I don't have, and that's fine, and I don't have issue with that.
All I'm saying that means is that there are things that all the striving and wanting and thirsting and being hungry to do... I'll never be able to do them. There are limits. My limits fall short of where someone who doesn't have my disease's limits are.
Not being diseased is an advantage I don't have in the "nothing is impossible" game.
This is why I think the statement is too pat. Yes, some things are impossible for some people. That doesn't mean that I don't think I shouldn't go to my limits and just give up. I certainly didn't give up when I was walking with a cane. I fought back like hell.
So don't write me off as an excuse maker. I'm just a realist.
I was actually using the very same definition for privilege (thank you Google) I see you're focusing on the word "advantage." I was focusing on "special right" and "available only to a particular person or group."
I'm fairly sure I wasn't saying that you, specifically, were making excuses. Honestly the thought didn't cross my mind, so I'm sorry if I was sloppy in my communication.
If you've already accepted something as impossible, you've essentially given up. Maybe the cure for what ails you hasn't been discovered yet and won't be in our lifetime. But maybe it will.
I'm going to assume you didn't mean it as such, but the bolded is an incredibly cold thing to say to someone who just described how hard they have already worked to overcome a physical limitation.
Acknowledging your limitations and working hard to reach more appropriate goals is a far cry from giving up.
Cold perhaps, but is it untrue? Don't get me wrong, I think it's phenomenal that she went from walking with a cane to being a runner. I wonder if she ever heard from the doc that she wouldn't be able to do that. If she did, she clearly didn't accept that.4 -
stanmann571 wrote: »clicketykeys wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »WorkerDrone83 wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »WorkerDrone83 wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »WorkerDrone83 wrote: »Wow, I did not expect to be in the minority on this one. That's a perfectly positive phrase and I've found it to be mostly true. The other variant I've heard once was "If someone REALLY wants to do something, that person is going to do it REALLY well." I'm not sure if intelligence, dedication, and strong work ethic counts as 'privilege.'
There are an awful lot of other privileges, the lack of which can make achieving the promise of this phrase logistically improbable.
Besides the fact that the bolded are not privileges...
Depends on who you ask.
No...
Yeah, it does. Many people assert that the ability/willingness to hustle and keep at something are a sign of privilege.
Whoa, this blows my mind. I don't mean to put you on the spot, but how is not being a lazy quitter a privilege?
There's a big yawning gulf of a spectrum between being a lazy quitter and being a dedicated hustler.
At some places on that spectrum, things like physical and mental disabilities can impact one's ability and or willingness to hustle. Not having such a physical or mental impairment is privilege.
Respectfully disagree. The absence of disabilities should not be viewed as privilege, unless we're using a really loose definition of privilege where a vast majority of people qualify.
All this talk of privilege is getting old. So people have some advantages that others don't. That's life. A lot of us weren't born with silver spoons in our mouths, but that doesn't hold us back from success or reaching our goals. Seems like more of an excuse than an explanation.
As for the phrase in question, is it really so bad to offer up optimistic hope when people really can do things they think are impossible? Perhaps people really just don't want to see the flip-side of the coin, that if they don't reach their goals it's their own fault.
But it IS a privilege to be able to climb stairs, walk up an inline, walk across uneven ground without falling, kneel on the floor, and climb ladders. The difficulty setting on the video game of life for the majority of people is set much lower than it is for some, and that's all that privilege is: how hard is your life based on the luck of draw when you were born.
My video game level is set up to be very easy in many ways. I'm very solidly middle class, I live in a first world country, I'm white, I'm taller than average, I'm educated and smart. I have a car, a smartphone, a large house, enough food, and don't have to work because my husband earns a lot of money, I have excellent health insurance. I'm young, but that will change with time.
My video game level is set up to be harder than others in a lot of ways too. I'm female, I'm fat (I'm working on that though), I'm unhealthy (some of this can be fixed, my diabetes will go into remission - my mental illness never will), I have moderately severe mental illness that does severely affect my quality of life (such as being able to hold down a job), I am not neurotypical, I have a birth defect in my knee limiting my ability to walk/climb stairs/hills/ladders, I have PTSD.
I will not likely by pulled over by the police for no reason because I'm white, but I am more likely to be sexually assaulted because I'm female. I lack the able-bodied privilege, but I have yet to be in a wheelchair so I have more privilege than some.
Everyone has privileges and disprivileges. Some have more privileges than others though. These privileges open up the opportunities that are given to us in life. It's not an excuse, it's a fact of life.
A friend works in the Dallas school district working with underprivileged children and helping them get to college. Without her intervention and VERY hard work, these children would not be able to jump through the hoops to take advantage of the opportunities that are there. These children are often the first in their family to go to college, and are not privileged enough to know where to start to apply for school. Even community college is out of reach for them, without her influence. Because of her, they are able to do the impossible. She uses HER privilege to give OTHERS privilege. But it's still privilege.
Because I grew up in a middle class family, I was expected, encouraged, and financially able to go to college, and thus able to marry into a middle class family. Because my husband has a good degree and a good job, we are now an upper middle class family. That opportunity would not have been mine had my father been a factory worker instead of a school teacher. I would not have met my husband had I not gone to college and pursued the major I chose, because he went to a different church.
From a practical perspective, she's harming these children and their families. Jumping multiple Maslow levels at once objectively causes harm, and does not bring the desired enduring benefit.
Unless she's working with them starting around the 4th or 6th grade, just attending college will not give them any benefit except to steal time and resources from them that could be better directed in other directions.
It's not her fault, or yours that her privilege doesn't allow her to recognize and address the real needs of this community.
Please explain how being the first in your family to go to college is "jumping multiple Maslow levels." (Note: Yes, I'm familiar with the hierarchy of needs.)
This.
The children that she's helped have gone on to graduate, some from ivy league institutions, with honors and now have very promising careers. These children are not the underachievers in school that she's scooping up from the bottom of the class and forcing into college, these are children that have the grades to get into Harvard with scholarships, but only lack the skills to know how to file a FASFA, apply for student aid, and so forth. They have worked for many years for the ability to go to college, and deserve these chances.
All their Maslow needs are met, they are just poor. She gives them a needed a leg up to reach the stars and their potential. I'm sorry you can't see that.
So she's a guidance counselor.
As I understand things (I may be misinformed, I was homeschooled (unfortunately, I was very unhappy there) so all I know of guidance counselors is what I've gleaned from the media, guidance counselors are typically limited to one school and service students of all socioeconomic statues. She works all over Dallas ISD and only works with the disadvantaged and often minority students.
Dallas has a huge problem with poverty, and her employer is part of a program designed to help lift families out of poverty through advanced schooling. She may be a guidance counselor, I honestly don't know, but only for a subset of children.
I'm conflicted here, mostly because what I'm seeing from my perspective(not homeschooled, inner city, poor) is that instead of identifying a broken part of the system and replacing it(which saves money and adds resources) additional pieces are being added to the system adding cost and complexity.
So I am curious exactly what she does, how she does it, how the target students are identified.
On the other hand, I'm familiar with the general situation, although not the Dallas particulars, and the idea of adding bloat and bureaucracy to an already bloated bureaucratic system aggravates me, especially since Dallas is one of the districts I'm considering as I transition from one career to the next(I'm active military and intend to be a teacher within the next 3-5 years)1 -
WorkerDrone83 wrote: »WorkerDrone83 wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »WorkerDrone83 wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »WorkerDrone83 wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »WorkerDrone83 wrote: »Wow, I did not expect to be in the minority on this one. That's a perfectly positive phrase and I've found it to be mostly true. The other variant I've heard once was "If someone REALLY wants to do something, that person is going to do it REALLY well." I'm not sure if intelligence, dedication, and strong work ethic counts as 'privilege.'
There are an awful lot of other privileges, the lack of which can make achieving the promise of this phrase logistically improbable.
Besides the fact that the bolded are not privileges...
Depends on who you ask.
No...
Yeah, it does. Many people assert that the ability/willingness to hustle and keep at something are a sign of privilege.
Whoa, this blows my mind. I don't mean to put you on the spot, but how is not being a lazy quitter a privilege?
There's a big yawning gulf of a spectrum between being a lazy quitter and being a dedicated hustler.
At some places on that spectrum, things like physical and mental disabilities can impact one's ability and or willingness to hustle. Not having such a physical or mental impairment is privilege.
Respectfully disagree. The absence of disabilities should not be viewed as privilege, unless we're using a really loose definition of privilege where a vast majority of people qualify.
All this talk of privilege is getting old. So people have some advantages that others don't. That's life. A lot of us weren't born with silver spoons in our mouths, but that doesn't hold us back from success or reaching our goals. Seems like more of an excuse than an explanation.
As for the phrase in question, is it really so bad to offer up optimistic hope when people really can do things they think are impossible? Perhaps people really just don't want to see the flip-side of the coin, that if they don't reach their goals it's their own fault.
You just don't like the word privilege. Advantage is a synonym for privilege.priv·i·lege
ˈpriv(ə)lij/Submit
noun
1.
a special right, advantage, or immunity granted or available only to a particular person or group of people.
"education is a right, not a privilege"
synonyms: advantage, benefit; More
Illness is not an excuse, and I'm not making one. How you thought I was when I said I overcame walking with a cane to becoming a runner is beyond me.
However, I have limitations. That's a fact of my illness because it's trashed my joints to a certain point.
Someone with untrashed joints has advantages I don't have, and that's fine, and I don't have issue with that.
All I'm saying that means is that there are things that all the striving and wanting and thirsting and being hungry to do... I'll never be able to do them. There are limits. My limits fall short of where someone who doesn't have my disease's limits are.
Not being diseased is an advantage I don't have in the "nothing is impossible" game.
This is why I think the statement is too pat. Yes, some things are impossible for some people. That doesn't mean that I don't think I shouldn't go to my limits and just give up. I certainly didn't give up when I was walking with a cane. I fought back like hell.
So don't write me off as an excuse maker. I'm just a realist.
I was actually using the very same definition for privilege (thank you Google) I see you're focusing on the word "advantage." I was focusing on "special right" and "available only to a particular person or group."
I'm fairly sure I wasn't saying that you, specifically, were making excuses. Honestly the thought didn't cross my mind, so I'm sorry if I was sloppy in my communication.
If you've already accepted something as impossible, you've essentially given up. Maybe the cure for what ails you hasn't been discovered yet and won't be in our lifetime. But maybe it will.
I'm going to assume you didn't mean it as such, but the bolded is an incredibly cold thing to say to someone who just described how hard they have already worked to overcome a physical limitation.
Acknowledging your limitations and working hard to reach more appropriate goals is a far cry from giving up.
Cold perhaps, but is it untrue? Don't get me wrong, I think it's phenomenal that she went from walking with a cane to being a runner. I wonder if she ever heard from the doc that she wouldn't be able to do that. If she did, she clearly didn't accept that.
Yes, I think it is literally untrue that accepting something is impossible means you've essentially given up.
If I really want to be a professional hockey player, and as a 44 yr old woman I accept that that would be impossible, I could just give up. But if instead I decide my goal is just to become a good hockey player, so I take skating lessons and join an amateur women's league and continue playing and improving for the rest of my life, how is that giving up? I think having realistic goals is way more motivating than aspirational way-out-there goals that may very well keep you banging into a brick wall. I'm sure that's different for different people.3
This discussion has been closed.
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