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Why are most mfp users against holistic nutrition?
Replies
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GlorianasTears wrote: »Modern medicine seems to do more damage than healing. Truth is that people are prideful they would rather listen to the government and doctors instead of listening to holistic health professionals. I had a friend I tried to help by giving her some natural remedies she disregarded EVERYTHING I said that's when I realized that pride does come before a fall.
Seriously? I would have died when I was 13 if my parents had turned to holistic medicine for a cure. I got nephritis (potentially chronic deadly kidney infection) from untreated strep throat. I peed blood for weeks. I took penicillin 4X a day and got a blood test every damn day for 4 weeks. What kind of natural remedies would you have suggested for me?12 -
TenderBlender667 wrote: »The teachers in my school truly believe that leaky gut syndrome and candida overgrowth are REAL problems, even the one's who've practiced allopathic medicine and have years of education behind then. I go on mfp and it's the complete opposite of everything I'm learning. Am I being scammed?
The real thing is not to accept anybody's statements as fact, but apply critical thinking (which it sounds like you are, as you're questioning what you've been told).
One good thought exercise is to imagine that the statement is true, and then see what else would happen as a result of that statement being true.
For example, if "leaky gut syndrome" is real, then what would the effects be? It would allow bacteria from the intestines into the bloodstream. We know what bacteria in the blood stream causes - it's called septicemia, and it's very life-threatening. Even with immediate hospitalization and powerful IV antibiotics, it's a very dangerous condition. If "leaky gut" were real, then, it would have an extremely high fatality rate unless immediately treated, it wouldn't cause an array of uncomfortable but non-life-threatening nonspecific effects, it would be causing multiple organ failure and death.
"Candida overgrowth", as described by naturopathic sources, seems similarly improbable, because there are plenty of actual known diseases caused by candida overgrowth - namely, thrush, vaginal yeast infections, and, usually only in the immunocompromised, various other forms of candidiasis. The symptoms ascribed to "candida overgrowth" sound like none of the above. And, if there were some potential other form of candidiasis that was widespread, think about who would be leading the push to treat it - the pharmaceutical companies, who have a wide array of patented antifungals that are very effective at killing candida albicans. They would love to market their drugs to a wide array of the population, that's their business model. We'd be seeing TV commercials telling us to "ask our doctors" if antifungals were right for us.15 -
MikePfirrman wrote: »Acupuncture has been around 3000 years. It has only been scientifically proven to have merit in the last ten.
It most certainly hasn't been proven to have merit.
http://www.cochrane.org/CD007070/MUSKEL_acupuncture-for-fibromyalgia
There is low to moderate-level evidence that compared with no treatment and standard therapy, acupuncture improves pain and stiffness in people with fibromyalgia. There is moderate-level evidence that the effect of acupuncture does not differ from sham acupuncture in reducing pain or fatigue, or improving sleep or global well-being. EA is probably better than MA for pain and stiffness reduction and improvement of global well-being, sleep and fatigue. The effect lasts up to one month, but is not maintained at six months follow-up. MA probably does not improve pain or physical functioning. Acupuncture appears safe. People with fibromyalgia may consider using EA alone or with exercise and medication. The small sample size, scarcity of studies for each comparison, lack of an ideal sham acupuncture weaken the level of evidence and its clinical implications. Larger studies are warranted.
In case you think low to moderate evidence is "proven", think again. It's actually unproven.
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MikePfirrman wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Alatariel75 wrote: »suzannesimmons3 wrote: »Alatariel75 wrote: »MikePfirrman wrote: »I don't have the time to educate most of you and won't waste my breath. GMOseralini.com is a good, basic start. Also, look up some of the information being put out by Anthony Samsel from MIT. Like I said, I work with VC companies (that stands for Venture Capital) that are investing heavily in this "tinfoil hat" stuff.
http://www.arthritis.org/living-with-arthritis/arthritis-diet/anti-inflammatory/vegan-and-vegetarian-diets.php
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4359818/
Your first link: "There are various studies of the impact of these diets on inflammation. They are mostly small and the results are mixed."
Absolutely nothing like " You know what cures arthritis (scientifically proven) -- being Vegan."
You're just like every other person who makes wild claims regarding alternative medicine. Big claim, no proof, misrepresenting studies and telling people to do their own research rather than backing your claims.
Don't forget rude....because you know we have to be stoopid
I find it ironic when someone calls me a sheep, but expects their wild claims to be accepted with absolutely nothing to back them up.
Wake up, sheeple! He has Mercola, what do you mean? ;-)
(Sorry, could not resist. You know I'm kidding.)
I'm not a Mercola fan either but it was the most easy video to understand. I felt that might be important to keep it simple.
Too bad you're not open minded enough to watch it. You posted your response within 2 minutes. The video is 45 minutes. The 10 most pertinent minutes start roughly at the 20 minute mark.
I'm not willing to watch a 45 min video of Mercola in that I already know Mercola is not credible. That doesn't make me not open minded to reasonable evidence, it just means I don't waste my time on nonsense. I also am not up for the creationist museum (which shows humans cohabitating with dinosaurs) or the flat earth society.12 -
MichelleSilverleaf wrote: »GlorianasTears wrote: »Modern medicine seems to do more damage than healing. Truth is that people are prideful they would rather listen to the government and doctors instead of listening to holistic health professionals. I had a friend I tried to help by giving her some natural remedies she disregarded EVERYTHING I said that's when I realized that pride does come before a fall.
And yet people are living longer, and people who do things like opt for "natural" alternatives to cancer are dying at higher rates because they put off real treatment to the point that said treatment no longer works. Natural doesn't equal safe or effective. Natural is also not regulated meaning they don't have to actually prove it works. And I'd rather get medical advice from a real doctor who did real time in real education than someone who thinks unproven natural remedies are superior to medical science while often not knowing how the human body even works.
Yeah -- my mother had breast cancer in 1987 (when I was 17 and she was 43). She had medical treatment and is still alive. Seems like medicine did a good thing.
People not dying of polio and smallpox in huge numbers, also nice.4 -
MikePfirrman wrote: »traditional practice, which is broken and revolves around pain management and 15 minute appointments to determine what pill to prescribe.
This is not my experience. I think lots of doctors (real doctors, I mean) recommend lots of lifestyle things and talk to patients about them. They also use other treatments when appropriate (as with my mother as noted above).
My dad had high cholesterol and fixed it through some dietary changes (he was already a good weight). I never had bad tests when I was fat (and I knew I should lose weight) but my doctor of course talked to me about weight loss. When I did lose weight she talked to me about diet and how I was doing it (basically said "that's great," but I knew what I was doing). She's talked about exercise and I'm sure does with people who do not exercise.We don't have the time or resources to make people eat better and take care of themselves.
It is OBVIOUSLY impossible to MAKE people eat better and take care of themselves. I would hope sensible people would choose to do that, of course.As for the microbiome, we now know a lot more than what you're saying. They have even identified certain bacteria lacking in chronic illness.
Even if that is true (I think you are overstating it), that is not inconsistent with what I said. There is a ton they do not know, including the vast majority of species or how they effect things. The supposed dietary changes needed differs immensely depending on the holistic practitioner too.
There's a thread elsewhere in the forum that shows the dangerous (or scam) of many holistic practioners, diagnosing people with fake diseases like adrenal fatigue or leaky gut or candida overload or parasites -- parasites is apparently a really common scammy one -- and pretending to tell them how to fix it. Ugh.3 -
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I've loved this thread which I only found yesterday
I started life as a scientist working in aero engine manufacturing but re-trained as a Physical Therapist after redundancy during the Gulf War. In the last 25 years I've been on dozens of CPD courses for continuing education and these are open to people from all kinds of 'disciplines'. I've met Sports Therapists, massage therapists, Rolfers, kinesiologists and all manner of 'alternative' practitioners.
My observation from meeting all these people is that there is this general acceptance of all opinion as valid even if it is voodoo. I've bit my tongue many a time as someone tells me something completely without evidence as fact.
The Tim Minchin video 'Storm' has it spot on7 -
MikePfirrman wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Alatariel75 wrote: »suzannesimmons3 wrote: »Alatariel75 wrote: »MikePfirrman wrote: »I don't have the time to educate most of you and won't waste my breath. GMOseralini.com is a good, basic start. Also, look up some of the information being put out by Anthony Samsel from MIT. Like I said, I work with VC companies (that stands for Venture Capital) that are investing heavily in this "tinfoil hat" stuff.
http://www.arthritis.org/living-with-arthritis/arthritis-diet/anti-inflammatory/vegan-and-vegetarian-diets.php
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4359818/
Your first link: "There are various studies of the impact of these diets on inflammation. They are mostly small and the results are mixed."
Absolutely nothing like " You know what cures arthritis (scientifically proven) -- being Vegan."
You're just like every other person who makes wild claims regarding alternative medicine. Big claim, no proof, misrepresenting studies and telling people to do their own research rather than backing your claims.
Don't forget rude....because you know we have to be stoopid
I find it ironic when someone calls me a sheep, but expects their wild claims to be accepted with absolutely nothing to back them up.
Wake up, sheeple! He has Mercola, what do you mean? ;-)
(Sorry, could not resist. You know I'm kidding.)
I'm not a Mercola fan either but it was the most easy video to understand. I felt that might be important to keep it simple.
Too bad you're not open minded enough to watch it. You posted your response within 2 minutes. The video is 45 minutes. The 10 most pertinent minutes start roughly at the 20 minute mark.
If Mercola tried to tell me the sky is blue I'd ask for a second opinion. That's how s*** he is as a source.8 -
GlorianasTears wrote: »Modern medicine seems to do more damage than healing. Truth is that people are prideful they would rather listen to the government and doctors instead of listening to holistic health professionals. I had a friend I tried to help by giving her some natural remedies she disregarded EVERYTHING I said that's when I realized that pride does come before a fall.
Yeah, why would you ever listen to experts who studied for years in proven methods if instead you can listen to someone whose title isn't even bound to any specific degree, i.e. I could go and call myself a holistic health professional just like that in some places.
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GlorianasTears wrote: »Modern medicine seems to do more damage than healing. Truth is that people are prideful they would rather listen to the government and doctors instead of listening to holistic health professionals. I had a friend I tried to help by giving her some natural remedies she disregarded EVERYTHING I said that's when I realized that pride does come before a fall.
I am often disappointed by the aggressive and, frankly, impolite and un-welcoming comments from many on this forum.
The vitriol against Dr Jason Fung - a noted MD who deals with chronically obese and very ill people - is shameful.
That's just one example.
It is offensive to have healthy people scream CICO, CICO, CICO!!
Not all of us have healthy bodily systems that work in a clockwork manner.
My arteries are clogged by naturally produced cholestorol that my body produces.
Many vastly qualified MD's have told me my cholestorol issues are 95% bodily and 5% lifestyle and food.
I am a journalist and have a thick skin.
I am ready for the abuse and I say...if it works for you...do it.
Please...'normal' people...have empathy or please shut up.28 -
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NotEmphatic wrote: »GlorianasTears wrote: »Modern medicine seems to do more damage than healing. Truth is that people are prideful they would rather listen to the government and doctors instead of listening to holistic health professionals. I had a friend I tried to help by giving her some natural remedies she disregarded EVERYTHING I said that's when I realized that pride does come before a fall.
I am often disappointed by the aggressive and, frankly, impolite and un-welcoming comments from many on this forum.
The vitriol against Dr Jason Fung - a noted MD who deals with chronically obese and very ill people - is shameful.
That's just one example.
It is offensive to have healthy people scream CICO, CICO, CICO!!
Not all of us have healthy bodily systems that work in a clockwork manner.
My arteries are clogged by naturally produced cholestorol that my body produces.
Many vastly qualified MD's have told me my cholestorol issues are 95% bodily and 5% lifestyle and food.
I am a journalist and have a thick skin.
I am ready for the abuse and I say...if it works for you...do it.
Please...'normal' people...have empathy or please shut up.
You talk about "normal" people while it was mostly people with health conditions that would've KILLED them if not for modern medicine. If anything, the post you quoted is the one lacking empathy by a "healthy" person, who never had anything where holistic medicine would've caused serious harm.7 -
I control my diet now with very accurate food logging on MFP.
I also have to take two different statins or I will have a stroke and die.
In Australia I bless everyday modern medicine and practices which are free for us.
My four heart operations were successful, timely and very much appreciated.
Don't scream CICO!!!
Some of us need more medical intervention.
We just do.12 -
And I still am wary of zeolots of any colour, persuasion and, especially, if they have something to sell.
Good Wishes to All from Downunder.8 -
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I have followed the discussions for many months now.
There are many [people of the religious and caveman-like mindset who scream CICO the loudest.
Who are so quick to Woo!! and say...Nah, you are wrong...it's all and totally about what you cram in your facehole.
This thinking is what has stymied any sort of genuine, academic and scientific enquiry for as long as we have been around.
The so-called 'helpers' on this forum may be causing more harm than good.
A person can't lose weight and they get the CICO mantra spat out at them.
My statins may cause muscle pain, tremors and perhaps even long-term liver damage.
We do not know yet.
But, I do know a stroke will kill me even at a blessed BMI value.
I will keep my faith in proven western pharmocology.
Cheers.23 -
NotEmphatic wrote: »GlorianasTears wrote: »Modern medicine seems to do more damage than healing. Truth is that people are prideful they would rather listen to the government and doctors instead of listening to holistic health professionals. I had a friend I tried to help by giving her some natural remedies she disregarded EVERYTHING I said that's when I realized that pride does come before a fall.
I am often disappointed by the aggressive and, frankly, impolite and un-welcoming comments from many on this forum.
The vitriol against Dr Jason Fung - a noted MD who deals with chronically obese and very ill people - is shameful.
That's just one example.
It is offensive to have healthy people scream CICO, CICO, CICO!!
Not all of us have healthy bodily systems that work in a clockwork manner.
My arteries are clogged by naturally produced cholestorol that my body produces.
Many vastly qualified MD's have told me my cholestorol issues are 95% bodily and 5% lifestyle and food.
I am a journalist and have a thick skin.
I am ready for the abuse and I say...if it works for you...do it.
Please...'normal' people...have empathy or please shut up.
Asking an "MD" for nutritional intervention is like asking a plumber to fix my car. But nice appeal to authority fallacy, it lets us know your level of intellect. And yes it is all CICO. CICO is the energy balance equation and is a law, the human body CANNOT create energy from nothing or make ingested energy disappear. If you're so abnormal to violate this law, then the government would like to harvest you! And since you're a Fungite, no it is not hormones again they can't create and destroy energy.
Cliffs:
You ate too much11 -
Please see my post above.
Human bodies are Imperfect Machines.
It's not all about CICO for All.
If it is for you, great!
Don't use false analogies - they weaken your argument and credibility.17 -
NotEmphatic wrote: »GlorianasTears wrote: »Modern medicine seems to do more damage than healing. Truth is that people are prideful they would rather listen to the government and doctors instead of listening to holistic health professionals. I had a friend I tried to help by giving her some natural remedies she disregarded EVERYTHING I said that's when I realized that pride does come before a fall.
I am often disappointed by the aggressive and, frankly, impolite and un-welcoming comments from many on this forum.
The vitriol against Dr Jason Fung - a noted MD who deals with chronically obese and very ill people - is shameful.
That's just one example.
It is offensive to have healthy people scream CICO, CICO, CICO!!
Not all of us have healthy bodily systems that work in a clockwork manner.
My arteries are clogged by naturally produced cholestorol that my body produces.
Many vastly qualified MD's have told me my cholestorol issues are 95% bodily and 5% lifestyle and food.
I am a journalist and have a thick skin.
I am ready for the abuse and I say...if it works for you...do it.
Please...'normal' people...have empathy or please shut up.
Where in this thread are people shouting CICO to someone struggling with a health issue? Are you confusing this thread with others, because the discussion is about the merits of holistic medicine and whether or not the OP (who hasn't been back in ages) is wasting her money on coursework that focuses on things that are largely considered to be woo. The most recent portion of the discussion is whether we are all sheeple who are blinded by lobbyists and interest groups.
I'm confused who the "normal" people are, who you think is being rude, and why stating (factually) that CICO is what matters for weight loss and that many health benefits are realized simply by losing weight is considered to be rude? Many people on these boards and on this thread have talked about the medical issues they and loved ones have dealt with, so I'm not sure why you seem to suggest that "normal" people never need medicine, surgery, or other treatments?10 -
NotEmphatic wrote: »Please see my post above.
Human bodies are Imperfect Machines.
It's not all about CICO for All.
If it is for you, great!
Don't use false analogies - they weaken your argument and credibility.
The laws of physics apply to everything, whether you like it or not.11 -
NotEmphatic wrote: »Please see my post above.
Human bodies are Imperfect Machines.
It's not all about CICO for All.
If it is for you, great!
Don't use false analogies - they weaken your argument and credibility.
Then explain how "imperfect machines" can create energy out of nothing or become a black hole by making ingested energy disappear? Please, we'll wait for an answer to this since it will solve our energy crisis!8 -
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Yes, you are being scammed.3
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singingflutelady wrote: »finny11122 wrote: »singingflutelady wrote: »finny11122 wrote: »singingflutelady wrote: »finny11122 wrote: »Hollistic approach is great and has helped people for thousands of years .
Modern medicine also has it's place and has helped countless people .
What's wrong is someone jumping down someone's throat because they shared with the world an approach that worked for them . The PC brigrades and the strongly worded letter types are always waiting in the internet shadows ready to pounce on someone .
Do and enjoy what works for you and makes you healthy and happy .
Making up fake diagnoses and therefore curing fake diagnoses isn't "sharing with the world an approach that worked for them".
Do what works for you . And let others do what works for them . It's not a contest . Let people share their experiences .
Sorry that I don't agree with promoting scams. Curing a disease that doesn't exist is doing something that works for you. It's wasting money on things you don't need.
What are you talking about ? Why are you so emotionally invested ?
This thread is about a course that talks about leaky gut syndrome, adrenal fatigue and detoxes amongst other things. The first 2 don't exist and the third is pointless. You came in saying that we shouldn't say anything against it otherwise we are the PC brigade. If I see ridiculous things I will speak out. The reason why I care is I hate seeing vulnerable people being taken advantage of. I have a chronic illness and hear so many crazy things touted as cures (there is no cure for my disease) every day and see people who are so desperate that they spend hundreds on these cures only to find in the best case scenario they don't work and in the worst it makes their symptoms worse.
^^ This
I know a lot of hippies and counterculture types. I know one who literally died refusing "traditional Western medicine" for her cancer, which could have been cured otherwise. The other spent years seeking herbal and diet cures for his diabetes and now is permanently disabled in a nursing home. He used to preach at me all the time about what Dr. Mercola said - before he went blind and became so addled from dementia that he can't remember how to use a computer, surf the web, or even what the man said anymore. He spent hundred of dollars a month for years on their snake oil. So yes, they make me angry.11 -
NotEmphatic wrote: »I control my diet now with very accurate food logging on MFP.
I also have to take two different statins or I will have a stroke and die.
In Australia I bless everyday modern medicine and practices which are free for us.
My four heart operations were successful, timely and very much appreciated.
Don't scream CICO!!!
Some of us need more medical intervention.
We just do.
No offense meant, but what are you talking about? Are you maybe replying to the wrong thread? This debate is about alternative medicine and diagnoses, it has nothing to do with CICO which is about weight loss.
In one post you are upset we don't respect Fung, and in the next you seem to be arguing that you need modern medicine, which has you arguing with both sides of the debate. I'm honestly confused.9 -
NotEmphatic wrote: »It is offensive to have healthy people scream CICO, CICO, CICO!!
It obviously is not "offensive" to point out that weight loss is based on CICO (although you may find specific things make a difference to your ability to keep a particular balance of CI to CO and some have health problems like hypothyroid that affect CO). No one "screams" CICO, that's frankly ridiculous.
However, why I responded is to point out that this thread has NOTHING to do with CICO or weight loss, really. Perhaps you failed to read it?7 -
NotEmphatic wrote: »I control my diet now with very accurate food logging on MFP.
I also have to take two different statins or I will have a stroke and die.
In Australia I bless everyday modern medicine and practices which are free for us.
My four heart operations were successful, timely and very much appreciated.
Don't scream CICO!!!
Some of us need more medical intervention.
We just do.
How is this an argument for holistic medicine and against modern medicine. Again, are you misunderstanding what the discussion in the thread is about? (Not CICO.)1 -
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