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Dr Jason Fung - The Useless Concept of Calories
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HellYeahItsKriss wrote: »Everyone is partially right. A deficit is all that matters in losing weight but what and when you eat effect the deficit. Hormones can cause a person to absorb more or excrete more and can have impacts on hunger which all effect deficits.
How would it? despite hormones influencing hunger cues, that person still makes the choice to eat. Also, if someone does have a medical condition that impacts the food they need not consume, such as PCOS then after being diagnosed by a doctor, they would then know this and choose an appropriate lifestyle choice. However, no matter if they choose to ignore that lifestyle choice or if someone is choosing to eat from hunger cues, the food they pick or the time of day in which they eat that food does not matter, if my hormones were screaming at me to eat chocolate at 3am it is not set in stone that i have to, cravings actually can be ignored for one, a lot of people find that hard to do but it is something people can do, they also have a choice on how much of it they want to consume if they can't ignore it, if they choose to sit there and eat 5 chocolate bars and use their entire days worth of calories, thats on them then, hormones may cause the strong desire but again they can be ignored.
deficit is deficit. You choose to keep your deficit or eat it. Paying attention to your own body helps plan ahead and use your calories more wisely so you can make sure of that. @blambo61 -- People who claim that they can't lose weight because their hormones cause them to eat and feel hungry are simply using that as an excuse, otherwise everyone with a hormone imbalance would just forever be fat, but plenty of people have successfully lost weight even with hormone issues, it takes patience to find the math that will get you there and it takes awareness of how you need to plan, and it takes strategy to find the lifestyle that will best help you but if you are just going to throw in the white towel, don't blame the food picked, hormones or the sun or the moon being in the sky for it, you still make conscious choices in the end and if you plan right, the time of day and choice of food makes no difference.
People have a choice but there is a breaking point for most everyone. What is a breaking point for someone else might be really easy for you or me. The breaking point is influenced greatly by hormones. Choices do affect hormones also I know. Yes if a person had perfect will and discipline they would lose no matter what but I do think everyone has a breaking point including you and me. I'm glad it isn't that hard for me to lose. I think it may be for others. I do also think there are those that do not try very hard either as you mentioned.5 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »HellYeahItsKriss wrote: »Everyone is partially right. A deficit is all that matters in losing weight but what and when you eat effect the deficit. Hormones can cause a person to absorb more or excrete more and can have impacts on hunger which all effect deficits.
How would it? despite hormones influencing hunger cues, that person still makes the choice to eat. Also, if someone does have a medical condition that impacts the food they need not consume, such as PCOS then after being diagnosed by a doctor, they would then know this and choose an appropriate lifestyle choice. However, no matter if they choose to ignore that lifestyle choice or if someone is choosing to eat from hunger cues, the food they pick or the time of day in which they eat that food does not matter, if my hormones were screaming at me to eat chocolate at 3am it is not set in stone that i have to, cravings actually can be ignored for one, a lot of people find that hard to do but it is something people can do, they also have a choice on how much of it they want to consume if they can't ignore it, if they choose to sit there and eat 5 chocolate bars and use their entire days worth of calories, thats on them then, hormones may cause the strong desire but again they can be ignored.
deficit is deficit. You choose to keep your deficit or eat it. Paying attention to your own body helps plan ahead and use your calories more wisely so you can make sure of that. @blambo61 -- People who claim that they can't lose weight because their hormones cause them to eat and feel hungry are simply using that as an excuse, otherwise everyone with a hormone imbalance would just forever be fat, but plenty of people have successfully lost weight even with hormone issues, it takes patience to find the math that will get you there and it takes awareness of how you need to plan, and it takes strategy to find the lifestyle that will best help you but if you are just going to throw in the white towel, don't blame the food picked, hormones or the sun or the moon being in the sky for it, you still make conscious choices in the end and if you plan right, the time of day and choice of food makes no difference.
People can choose but it is much easier if you don't feel like your starving all them time. How many of the "only CICO matters" crowd has yo-yo dieted and gained weight back? I bet a significant percentage. Why, because it is difficult. Hunger influences on eating should not be completely ignored.
You working, like Fung, from a false premise and conflating a bunch of separate issues into one.
1. CICO is all that "matters" when it comes to weight loss in that you must create a calorie deficit to lose weight
2. Saying that does not negate the fact that in the act of creating that deficit you should make creating that deficit sustainable and get good nutrition. The propositions of creating a deficit, having good nutrition, and not being hungry are not mutually exclusive.
If someone experiences uncontrollable hunger during dieting, there are ways to mitigate that through meal timing, food choice, and deficit level along with controlled diet breaks/refeeds (which manipulate hormone levels).
I believe I said the same thing, when and what you eat matters for hunger control which in the end will determine deficits.5 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Things that give me uncontrollable hunger; 1. Fats and 2. Fasting
I IF alright because I always wake up vaguely nauseated, but the last time I had to fast (for a colonoscopy), I got one of the worst migraines I ever had. I actually had to cancel the colonoscopy because I couldn't stop vomiting long enough to leave the house to go get it.
I really don't get this whole "thing" about fasting for a couple of days and what it's supposed to do for you and am just waiting for the day when it all goes away.
And yes, fats leave me hungry too. A breakfast of something like just eggs and cheese would leave me famished.
I don't think multiple day fasts are a good thing to do frequently (like weekly). I think quarterly should be fine (for a normal person) and could really be motivating for those who are very obese to see the weight come off.9 -
angelstarr22 wrote: »BOOM!! Why are you wasting our time?
We have moved on to a better topic. Now i must figure out this donair thing and see if we have it around my house
Ok, sorry Mr. Moderator, I haven’t been on the forum in month and today when I came on this thread was at the top. Also, no disrespect but why are you just addressing me? When other people were posting on it today and 7 people after me?
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GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Things that give me uncontrollable hunger; 1. Fats and 2. Fasting
I IF alright because I always wake up vaguely nauseated, but the last time I had to fast (for a colonoscopy), I got one of the worst migraines I ever had. I actually had to cancel the colonoscopy because I couldn't stop vomiting long enough to leave the house to go get it.
I really don't get this whole "thing" about fasting for a couple of days and what it's supposed to do for you and am just waiting for the day when it all goes away.
And yes, fats leave me hungry too. A breakfast of something like just eggs and cheese would leave me famished.
You probably shouldn't fast them. I get nauseous or at least crazy hungry if I eat a lot of small meals and never get to eat tell full, that is pure torture for me. Fasting does work for me.0 -
Lol, the dude is Asian. How the hell does he explain why rice eaters in Asia don't have the same issue as Americans and carbs?
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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HellYeahItsKriss wrote: »Everyone is partially right. A deficit is all that matters in losing weight but what and when you eat effect the deficit. Hormones can cause a person to absorb more or excrete more and can have impacts on hunger which all effect deficits.
How would it? despite hormones influencing hunger cues, that person still makes the choice to eat. Also, if someone does have a medical condition that impacts the food they need not consume, such as PCOS then after being diagnosed by a doctor, they would then know this and choose an appropriate lifestyle choice. However, no matter if they choose to ignore that lifestyle choice or if someone is choosing to eat from hunger cues, the food they pick or the time of day in which they eat that food does not matter, if my hormones were screaming at me to eat chocolate at 3am it is not set in stone that i have to, cravings actually can be ignored for one, a lot of people find that hard to do but it is something people can do, they also have a choice on how much of it they want to consume if they can't ignore it, if they choose to sit there and eat 5 chocolate bars and use their entire days worth of calories, thats on them then, hormones may cause the strong desire but again they can be ignored.
deficit is deficit. You choose to keep your deficit or eat it. Paying attention to your own body helps plan ahead and use your calories more wisely so you can make sure of that. @blambo61 -- People who claim that they can't lose weight because their hormones cause them to eat and feel hungry are simply using that as an excuse, otherwise everyone with a hormone imbalance would just forever be fat, but plenty of people have successfully lost weight even with hormone issues, it takes patience to find the math that will get you there and it takes awareness of how you need to plan, and it takes strategy to find the lifestyle that will best help you but if you are just going to throw in the white towel, don't blame the food picked, hormones or the sun or the moon being in the sky for it, you still make conscious choices in the end and if you plan right, the time of day and choice of food makes no difference.
People can choose but it is much easier if you don't feel like your starving all them time. How many of the "only CICO matters" crowd has yo-yo dieted and gained weight back? I bet a significant percentage. Why, because it is difficult. Hunger influences on eating should not be completely ignored.
The failure rate for almost diets is like 80-90%. And there is no CICO diet.
This. I'm a contributor to those statistics. I'm perfectly capable of losing weight with enough incentive, but was never able to sustain the loss. The reason was the same every time - I would reach my goal weight, then continue losing because that's all I knew how to do. At some point I would break, and pile all the weight back on.
I'm at goal weight again, (thanks in great part to these forums). I lost by eating the same foods I ate when I was gaining, but controlling portions (calories). By not having restricted myself to a food plan that didn't incorporate foods I love and didn't take into account what kinds of food keep me from being hungry all the time, one of the challenges I won't face while maintaining is trying to continue eating in a way that I don't find satisfying while losing the incentive of seeing the downward trend on the scale. I think this is possibly the single biggest contributor to regaining after weight loss.
I've only dieted twice. I've tried losing weight by running numerous times (didn't work cause would get sick or injured and eat back calories). First time I dieted, I ate a big breakfast, only ate fruit tell dinner, then ate a small dinner. I did exercise also. That diet was very hard for me because I would get very hungry during the day. Once I eat, my body wants more. I lost about 40-lbs on that but then got injured, couldn't run for a few months and it was just too hard. 6-months later I gained it all back.
The second time, I did 20:4 IF and ate ad libitum in the evenings and allowed deserts after eating good food. I lost 45-lbs in 4-months, then I went to a 16:8 and maintained for the next 1-year (I did gain back 10-lbs twice and went back to 20:4 each time to lose it again). Then I found if I ate just a salad at lunch and then ate ad libitum in the evenings, and exercise, I would maintain. I maintained for 7 or so more months without gaining doing that. Then recently I got back into the 20:4 routine for 3-months and have dropped another 15-lbs. My SW was 252 and I'm at about 195 right now. I think that is good that I'm at my lowest after starting 2yr and 2-months ago. IF works for me. I'm sure it doesn't for a lot of people but eating tell full is crucial for me for sustainability therefore I need to wait to eat or I will eat too much. Fasting is fairly easy for me but eating small meals and never getting full is hell for me.4 -
angelstarr22 wrote: »angelstarr22 wrote: »BOOM!! Why are you wasting our time?
We have moved on to a better topic. Now i must figure out this donair thing and see if we have it around my house
Ok, sorry Mr. Moderator, I haven’t been on the forum in month and today when I came on this thread was at the top. Also, no disrespect but why are you just addressing me? When other people were posting on it today and 7 people after me?
It was a chatty, jokey reply. Absolutely nothing to get bent out of shape over. Snickers?17 -
angelstarr22 wrote: »angelstarr22 wrote: »BOOM!! Why are you wasting our time?
We have moved on to a better topic. Now i must figure out this donair thing and see if we have it around my house
Ok, sorry Mr. Moderator, I haven’t been on the forum in month and today when I came on this thread was at the top. Also, no disrespect but why are you just addressing me? When other people were posting on it today and 7 people after me?
I think you read that in the wrong tone.7 -
Im completely shook. fung thread, for the love of calories, please stop.0
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Well I guess this explains the incongruity of walking into a donair shop and having a "halifax" donair as an option!
Lol.. that's for a large pav hahaha you can get them in a small or medium.I'm having trouble getting past the "pound of medium ground beef"...
Lol.. some places make them by weight instead of size.. so quarter pound and half pound and pound are the sizes. But that could include the pita and veggies I suppose but the main part of it is meat.angelstarr22 wrote: »BOOM!! Why are you wasting our time?
We have moved on to a better topic. Now i must figure out this donair thing and see if we have it around my house
There is always home made. I have the recipe. It won't be the same as take out but you get a decent idea.VintageFeline wrote: »angelstarr22 wrote: »BOOM!! Why are you wasting our time?
We have moved on to a better topic. Now i must figure out this donair thing and see if we have it around my house
The best bit is when the damp salad, sauce and grease from the meat (yummo!) make the bread of choice fall apart. Then you just go full savage and shovel it in any way you can.
YES!! when the pita bread goes all soggy from grease and sauce that's my favorite part I save the bread for last. So much deliciousness is a calorie bomb.0 -
While we're talking about foods imported from Turkey, can I talk to you about our Lord and Saviour, Sucuk?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sujuk1 -
stevencloser wrote: »While we're talking about foods imported from Turkey, can I talk to you about our Lord and Saviour, Sucuk?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sujuk
That looks delicious. Do you have to cook it? Or is it like a Chris brothers pepperoni thing?0 -
Can be eaten raw I think.
Negative point: it doesn't stay fresh as long as, say, salami.0 -
angelstarr22 wrote: »angelstarr22 wrote: »BOOM!! Why are you wasting our time?
We have moved on to a better topic. Now i must figure out this donair thing and see if we have it around my house
Ok, sorry Mr. Moderator, I haven’t been on the forum in month and today when I came on this thread was at the top. Also, no disrespect but why are you just addressing me? When other people were posting on it today and 7 people after me?
I was joking around with you. Probably should have used an emoji.6 -
Lol, the dude is Asian. How the hell does he explain why rice eaters in Asia don't have the same issue as Americans and carbs?
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
I believe he said its all based on WHEN they eat...they don’t snack like Americans...that they don’t have an insulin problem because of
this (????)7 -
Lol, the dude is Asian. How the hell does he explain why rice eaters in Asia don't have the same issue as Americans and carbs?
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
I believe he said its all based on WHEN they eat...they don’t snack like Americans...that they don’t have an insulin problem because of
this (????)
But if this is the case, why wouldn't he recommend that plan (less snacking) instead of blaming carbohydrates?7 -
HellYeahItsKriss wrote: »Everyone is partially right. A deficit is all that matters in losing weight but what and when you eat effect the deficit. Hormones can cause a person to absorb more or excrete more and can have impacts on hunger which all effect deficits.
How would it? despite hormones influencing hunger cues, that person still makes the choice to eat. Also, if someone does have a medical condition that impacts the food they need not consume, such as PCOS then after being diagnosed by a doctor, they would then know this and choose an appropriate lifestyle choice. However, no matter if they choose to ignore that lifestyle choice or if someone is choosing to eat from hunger cues, the food they pick or the time of day in which they eat that food does not matter, if my hormones were screaming at me to eat chocolate at 3am it is not set in stone that i have to, cravings actually can be ignored for one, a lot of people find that hard to do but it is something people can do, they also have a choice on how much of it they want to consume if they can't ignore it, if they choose to sit there and eat 5 chocolate bars and use their entire days worth of calories, thats on them then, hormones may cause the strong desire but again they can be ignored.
deficit is deficit. You choose to keep your deficit or eat it. Paying attention to your own body helps plan ahead and use your calories more wisely so you can make sure of that. @blambo61 -- People who claim that they can't lose weight because their hormones cause them to eat and feel hungry are simply using that as an excuse, otherwise everyone with a hormone imbalance would just forever be fat, but plenty of people have successfully lost weight even with hormone issues, it takes patience to find the math that will get you there and it takes awareness of how you need to plan, and it takes strategy to find the lifestyle that will best help you but if you are just going to throw in the white towel, don't blame the food picked, hormones or the sun or the moon being in the sky for it, you still make conscious choices in the end and if you plan right, the time of day and choice of food makes no difference.
People can choose but it is much easier if you don't feel like your starving all them time. How many of the "only CICO matters" crowd has yo-yo dieted and gained weight back? I bet a significant percentage. Why, because it is difficult. Hunger influences on eating should not be completely ignored.
The failure rate for almost diets is like 80-90%. And there is no CICO diet.
This. I'm a contributor to those statistics. I'm perfectly capable of losing weight with enough incentive, but was never able to sustain the loss. The reason was the same every time - I would reach my goal weight, then continue losing because that's all I knew how to do. At some point I would break, and pile all the weight back on.
I'm at goal weight again, (thanks in great part to these forums). I lost by eating the same foods I ate when I was gaining, but controlling portions (calories). By not having restricted myself to a food plan that didn't incorporate foods I love and didn't take into account what kinds of food keep me from being hungry all the time, one of the challenges I won't face while maintaining is trying to continue eating in a way that I don't find satisfying while losing the incentive of seeing the downward trend on the scale. I think this is possibly the single biggest contributor to regaining after weight loss.
I've only dieted twice. I've tried losing weight by running numerous times (didn't work cause would get sick or injured and eat back calories). First time I dieted, I ate a big breakfast, only ate fruit tell dinner, then ate a small dinner. I did exercise also. That diet was very hard for me because I would get very hungry during the day. Once I eat, my body wants more. I lost about 40-lbs on that but then got injured, couldn't run for a few months and it was just too hard. 6-months later I gained it all back.
The second time, I did 20:4 IF and ate ad libitum in the evenings and allowed deserts after eating good food. I lost 45-lbs in 4-months, then I went to a 16:8 and maintained for the next 1-year (I did gain back 10-lbs twice and went back to 20:4 each time to lose it again). Then I found if I ate just a salad at lunch and then ate ad libitum in the evenings, and exercise, I would maintain. I maintained for 7 or so more months without gaining doing that. Then recently I got back into the 20:4 routine for 3-months and have dropped another 15-lbs. My SW was 252 and I'm at about 195 right now. I think that is good that I'm at my lowest after starting 2yr and 2-months ago. IF works for me. I'm sure it doesn't for a lot of people but eating tell full is crucial for me for sustainability therefore I need to wait to eat or I will eat too much. Fasting is fairly easy for me but eating small meals and never getting full is hell for me.
Great! You found something that works for you personally, based on your preferences and lifestyle. IF is a good fit for you, as it helps you sustain the calorie deficit needed to lose weight. It may not be a good fit for others, nor does it offer an advantage over other options used to create a calorie deficit. I'm not sure why you keep trying to extrapolate something that you've found success with into something that offers an advantage over other methods of creating a calorie deficit to achieve the CI<CO result of the equation.
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janejellyroll wrote: »Lol, the dude is Asian. How the hell does he explain why rice eaters in Asia don't have the same issue as Americans and carbs?
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
I believe he said its all based on WHEN they eat...they don’t snack like Americans...that they don’t have an insulin problem because of
this (????)
But if this is the case, why wouldn't he recommend that plan (less snacking) instead of blaming carbohydrates?
in a way i guess he is recommending less snacking (by means of IF & extended fasts) to reduce over production of insulin. (don’t shoot the messenger guys, i’m just relaying what he said lol)
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janejellyroll wrote: »Lol, the dude is Asian. How the hell does he explain why rice eaters in Asia don't have the same issue as Americans and carbs?
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
I believe he said its all based on WHEN they eat...they don’t snack like Americans...that they don’t have an insulin problem because of
this (????)
But if this is the case, why wouldn't he recommend that plan (less snacking) instead of blaming carbohydrates?
in a way i guess he is recommending less snacking (by means of IF & extended fasts) to reduce over production of insulin. (don’t shoot the messenger guys, i’m just relaying what he said lol)
But Fung writes (in the Medium piece): "The least insulinogenic diet is low carb, high fibre, moderate protein, high in natural fats."
Does this describe the traditional Japanese diet? My understanding is that it is not. If he feels like the traditional Japanese diet is a good way to avoid obesity and the associated health problems, why wouldn't he recommend that? Why is he creating a whole new type of plan?
I don't believe the traditional Japanese diet regularly features IF or extended fasts -- less snacking isn't the same thing as more extended periods without food.4
This discussion has been closed.
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