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Dr Jason Fung - The Useless Concept of Calories
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lemurcat12 wrote: »Tacklewasher wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »I don't understand all this debating. On the one hand we have the die hard Cico folk who ignore hormones and then on the other hand we have the hormonal folk who ignore Cico. Why can't we have BOTH??? We need a calorie deficit and a hormonal balance. This is why I follow Dr Jade Teta's protocol. He addresses how to do a calorie deficit in line with balancing hormones. Perfect. As some one who has PCOS I find his work very enlightening.
See, there is a sort of a miscommunication happening. CICO simply means the balance of incoming and outgoing calories, and that tipping the balance to one side or another is the only way to lose/gain fat. It means nothing else. It doesn't say anything about the quality of food or its nutrients. It doesn't say anything about how sustainable is a particular diet for a certain individual. It doesn't say anything about hormones or health conditions that affect how many calories a person absorbs/burns (yes, these exist and the CICO folks don't deny them). It doesn't say anything about how eating a certain way helps one health condition or another. These are all separate topics. The issues with the "hormone folks" is that they deny the very fundament of weight control.
There is nothing wrong with following an approach that is beneficial for a certain health condition, but that can be achieved without believing woo. I have a few hormonal and physical conditions that affect how many calories I burn. Being aware of that helps me develop strategies that insure that my calories in are fewer than calories out taking these conditions into account. Fung denies that calories have anything to do with weight gain in people with hormonal issues (and goes further to say that hormonal issues are the cause for all weight gain). That's a load of... Yeah. He's a master of saying things that are technically true, but mean nothing in context. That's the definition of a quack.
Yes I agree with you but I also find those people frustrating who think it's just calories in and out and THATS IT. what so the human body is that simple??? No we're so complex that scientists and nutrition experts are only starting to look at female fat loss now! Our hormones change every single week, wow. When we start our menstrual cycle then estrogen is higher and that helps with pushing our workouts as females are stronger, during ovulation that's when we are the strongest and then during the later phase of the cycle (follicular phase) progesterone is higher and energy levels can plummet just before the period begins. I learnt this from Lyle McDonald's podcast with Mike Mathews and from Dr Jade Teta.
https://www.muscleforlife.com/lyle-mcdonald-podcast/
https://www.metaboliceffect.com/the-female-fat-loss-formula/
Before, just by counting calories I was not getting any results but after following these guys I now know how to work counting calories, macros along with my hormones!
Considering there is a very long thread on diet breaks and re-feeds that references, at the least, Lyle McDonalds work, I'm not sure how you can make this statement?
Yes, calories are not the only thing that matter but there is a huge difference between referencing McDonald and referencing Fung.
But we are right back to the question of who says it is ONLY calories? I've not found this person. Calories may be stressed, but it seems to always be with a note on nutrition.
I think you assumed you that I'm agreeing with Jason Fung? See this is why it's pointless doing debates on MFP because people just assume things.
No, I think he is responding to your false dichotomy that if you focus on CICO you must ignore anything else, like hormones. Specifically, this statement:On the one hand we have the die hard Cico folk who ignore hormones...
The refeed thread and discussion of Lyle demonstrates that people are conscious of hormones.
Personally, I have not found a need to think about hormonal influences much -- I did take a few diet breaks for mental reasons, so may have covered myself without having to, and my own research indicates that exercise is probably one of the more important things, as noted above, for those who may have things like leptin resistance post weight loss are very important, probably more important than food choice.
I do find that what I eat matters (because it affects my ability to keep a calorie balance that I want) but not really because of hunger (I'm sure I'd be hungry on some diets, but they seem to be diets that I haven't ever considered for other reasons). And I say that thinking this is totally consistent with a focus on CICO.
If someone wants to say that eating a particular way (LCHF or some other diet that supposedly affects hormones) works better for them, no argument here. But saying calories don't matter or are a myth or that if not for bad food choices we would have effortlessly and without thinking remained thin or that hormones made us unable to control calories and not responsible for making bad choices with respect to how much we ate, ugh. Not saying you are saying that, it's how I understand Fung.
I was talking about the people out there who say you only need a caloric deficit to lose weight.
You do only need a calorie deficit to lose weight. But that doesn't mean other things don't affect your ability to create a calorie deficit. What I eat matters, not because I wouldn't lose at 1200 calories of donuts (for one ridiculous and disgusting example), but because I COULD NOT consistently stick to 1200 calories with a donut-based diet (and I'd cheat with non donuts, as if I only had donuts to eat I'd probably actually eat less than 1200 because I'd get bored of eating).
Also, I'd feel bad and it would interfere with my activity goals.
I think Lyle has a lot to say largely about women who cut calories too low for a long time, stress, and overexercise, and also for the benefits of exercise post losing weight (I think that was him, it might have been something I recall from Layne Norton's podcast or on Sigma, although I think it was the Sigma interview of Lyle). I also think high stress/poor sleep can mess with cortisol and weight loss and taking a break can be a good approach and freaking and increasing exercise/deficit is not in these cases. What I don't think is true, at all, is that the average person with a bunch to lose needs to think about hormones or eat a very specific way or do a "hormone reset" or cannot lose just cutting calories.12 -
Everyone is partially right. A deficit is all that matters in losing weight but what and when you eat effect the deficit. Hormones can cause a person to absorb more or excrete more and can have impacts on hunger which all effect deficits.
How would it? despite hormones influencing hunger cues, that person still makes the choice to eat. Also, if someone does have a medical condition that impacts the food they need not consume, such as PCOS then after being diagnosed by a doctor, they would then know this and choose an appropriate lifestyle choice. However, no matter if they choose to ignore that lifestyle choice or if someone is choosing to eat from hunger cues, the food they pick or the time of day in which they eat that food does not matter, if my hormones were screaming at me to eat chocolate at 3am it is not set in stone that i have to, cravings actually can be ignored for one, a lot of people find that hard to do but it is something people can do, they also have a choice on how much of it they want to consume if they can't ignore it, if they choose to sit there and eat 5 chocolate bars and use their entire days worth of calories, thats on them then, hormones may cause the strong desire but again they can be ignored.
deficit is deficit. You choose to keep your deficit or eat it. Paying attention to your own body helps plan ahead and use your calories more wisely so you can make sure of that. @blambo61 -- People who claim that they can't lose weight because their hormones cause them to eat and feel hungry are simply using that as an excuse, otherwise everyone with a hormone imbalance would just forever be fat, but plenty of people have successfully lost weight even with hormone issues, it takes patience to find the math that will get you there and it takes awareness of how you need to plan, and it takes strategy to find the lifestyle that will best help you but if you are just going to throw in the white towel, don't blame the food picked, hormones or the sun or the moon being in the sky for it, you still make conscious choices in the end and if you plan right, the time of day and choice of food makes no difference.
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Christine_72 wrote: »Why are so many women riddled with hormonal problems?? Is this a self diagnosed thing or diagnosed by an actual doctor with blood tests etc
I have heard so many people say "I cant lose weight because of my hormones" or they say their thyroid is tanked, only to find out per their doctor that they are completely normal.
As for keto... Yes i lost weight easier when i low carbed, but only because i cut out the foods that i had no self control around. My appetite and cravings did also decrease, because I'm one of the lucky ones that gets full on fat and protein. I never cut down protein whilst low carbing, I struggled to get it under 120g daily, so the combination of the high fat and decent amount of protein worked well for me.
To clarify, I didn't lose weight because keto fixed my myriad of "Hormonal' issues, it worked because i found it easier to keep my CI less than my CO. This is a blessing for those of us with crappy willpower, which i think is the biggest problem to begin with... It's easy to say NO to chips, bread, pasta, rice, donuts, crackers etc etc when they're banned from the house, out of sight and easy reach, out of mind.
I have hormone issues diagnosed by doctors after a whole bunch of tests ( Pcos and hypothyroid )
None of it makes a difference to my weight loss, just gotta make sure I'm in a deficit like everyone else
153lb down so far so I think I can say Cico works
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HellYeahItsKriss wrote: »Everyone is partially right. A deficit is all that matters in losing weight but what and when you eat effect the deficit. Hormones can cause a person to absorb more or excrete more and can have impacts on hunger which all effect deficits.
How would it? despite hormones influencing hunger cues, that person still makes the choice to eat. Also, if someone does have a medical condition that impacts the food they need not consume, such as PCOS then after being diagnosed by a doctor, they would then know this and choose an appropriate lifestyle choice. However, no matter if they choose to ignore that lifestyle choice or if someone is choosing to eat from hunger cues, the food they pick or the time of day in which they eat that food does not matter, if my hormones were screaming at me to eat chocolate at 3am it is not set in stone that i have to, cravings actually can be ignored for one, a lot of people find that hard to do but it is something people can do, they also have a choice on how much of it they want to consume if they can't ignore it, if they choose to sit there and eat 5 chocolate bars and use their entire days worth of calories, thats on them then, hormones may cause the strong desire but again they can be ignored.
deficit is deficit. You choose to keep your deficit or eat it. Paying attention to your own body helps plan ahead and use your calories more wisely so you can make sure of that. @blambo61 -- People who claim that they can't lose weight because their hormones cause them to eat and feel hungry are simply using that as an excuse, otherwise everyone with a hormone imbalance would just forever be fat, but plenty of people have successfully lost weight even with hormone issues, it takes patience to find the math that will get you there and it takes awareness of how you need to plan, and it takes strategy to find the lifestyle that will best help you but if you are just going to throw in the white towel, don't blame the food picked, hormones or the sun or the moon being in the sky for it, you still make conscious choices in the end and if you plan right, the time of day and choice of food makes no difference.
People can choose but it is much easier if you don't feel like your starving all them time. How many of the "only CICO matters" crowd has yo-yo dieted and gained weight back? I bet a significant percentage. Why, because it is difficult. Hunger influences on eating should not be completely ignored.16 -
HellYeahItsKriss wrote: »Everyone is partially right. A deficit is all that matters in losing weight but what and when you eat effect the deficit. Hormones can cause a person to absorb more or excrete more and can have impacts on hunger which all effect deficits.
How would it? despite hormones influencing hunger cues, that person still makes the choice to eat. Also, if someone does have a medical condition that impacts the food they need not consume, such as PCOS then after being diagnosed by a doctor, they would then know this and choose an appropriate lifestyle choice. However, no matter if they choose to ignore that lifestyle choice or if someone is choosing to eat from hunger cues, the food they pick or the time of day in which they eat that food does not matter, if my hormones were screaming at me to eat chocolate at 3am it is not set in stone that i have to, cravings actually can be ignored for one, a lot of people find that hard to do but it is something people can do, they also have a choice on how much of it they want to consume if they can't ignore it, if they choose to sit there and eat 5 chocolate bars and use their entire days worth of calories, thats on them then, hormones may cause the strong desire but again they can be ignored.
deficit is deficit. You choose to keep your deficit or eat it. Paying attention to your own body helps plan ahead and use your calories more wisely so you can make sure of that. @blambo61 -- People who claim that they can't lose weight because their hormones cause them to eat and feel hungry are simply using that as an excuse, otherwise everyone with a hormone imbalance would just forever be fat, but plenty of people have successfully lost weight even with hormone issues, it takes patience to find the math that will get you there and it takes awareness of how you need to plan, and it takes strategy to find the lifestyle that will best help you but if you are just going to throw in the white towel, don't blame the food picked, hormones or the sun or the moon being in the sky for it, you still make conscious choices in the end and if you plan right, the time of day and choice of food makes no difference.
People can choose but it is much easier if you don't feel like your starving all them time. How many of the "only CICO matters" crowd has yo-yo dieted and gained weight back? I bet a significant percentage. Why, because it is difficult. Hunger influences on eating should not be completely ignored.
If you feel starving all the time then get your hormones fixed and work on eating things that help curb it, but that still doesn't support your comment of when and what you eat effects the deficit, nothing effects deficit unless the person makes the choice to eat their deficit, people also have the option of increasing their calories out if need be, people who have lost weight and got to goal but gained weight back have done so for various reasons... are you saying that most of them did so because hormones just made them hungry and that they just picked the wrong foods and wrong time of the day to eat and gained weight again?7 -
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HellYeahItsKriss wrote: »Everyone is partially right. A deficit is all that matters in losing weight but what and when you eat effect the deficit. Hormones can cause a person to absorb more or excrete more and can have impacts on hunger which all effect deficits.
How would it? despite hormones influencing hunger cues, that person still makes the choice to eat. Also, if someone does have a medical condition that impacts the food they need not consume, such as PCOS then after being diagnosed by a doctor, they would then know this and choose an appropriate lifestyle choice. However, no matter if they choose to ignore that lifestyle choice or if someone is choosing to eat from hunger cues, the food they pick or the time of day in which they eat that food does not matter, if my hormones were screaming at me to eat chocolate at 3am it is not set in stone that i have to, cravings actually can be ignored for one, a lot of people find that hard to do but it is something people can do, they also have a choice on how much of it they want to consume if they can't ignore it, if they choose to sit there and eat 5 chocolate bars and use their entire days worth of calories, thats on them then, hormones may cause the strong desire but again they can be ignored.
deficit is deficit. You choose to keep your deficit or eat it. Paying attention to your own body helps plan ahead and use your calories more wisely so you can make sure of that. @blambo61 -- People who claim that they can't lose weight because their hormones cause them to eat and feel hungry are simply using that as an excuse, otherwise everyone with a hormone imbalance would just forever be fat, but plenty of people have successfully lost weight even with hormone issues, it takes patience to find the math that will get you there and it takes awareness of how you need to plan, and it takes strategy to find the lifestyle that will best help you but if you are just going to throw in the white towel, don't blame the food picked, hormones or the sun or the moon being in the sky for it, you still make conscious choices in the end and if you plan right, the time of day and choice of food makes no difference.
People can choose but it is much easier if you don't feel like your starving all them time. How many of the "only CICO matters" crowd has yo-yo dieted and gained weight back? I bet a significant percentage. Why, because it is difficult. Hunger influences on eating should not be completely ignored.
You working, like Fung, from a false premise and conflating a bunch of separate issues into one.
1. CICO is all that "matters" when it comes to weight loss in that you must create a calorie deficit to lose weight
2. Saying that does not negate the fact that in the act of creating that deficit you should make creating that deficit sustainable and get good nutrition. The propositions of creating a deficit, having good nutrition, and not being hungry are not mutually exclusive.
If someone experiences uncontrollable hunger during dieting, there are ways to mitigate that through meal timing, food choice, and deficit level along with controlled diet breaks/refeeds (which manipulate hormone levels).
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Things that give me uncontrollable hunger; 1. Fats and 2. Fasting10
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Things that give me uncontrollable hunger; 1. Fats and 2. Fasting
I IF alright because I always wake up vaguely nauseated, but the last time I had to fast (for a colonoscopy), I got one of the worst migraines I ever had. I actually had to cancel the colonoscopy because I couldn't stop vomiting long enough to leave the house to go get it.
I really don't get this whole "thing" about fasting for a couple of days and what it's supposed to do for you and am just waiting for the day when it all goes away.
And yes, fats leave me hungry too. A breakfast of something like just eggs and cheese would leave me famished.5 -
HellYeahItsKriss wrote: »Everyone is partially right. A deficit is all that matters in losing weight but what and when you eat effect the deficit. Hormones can cause a person to absorb more or excrete more and can have impacts on hunger which all effect deficits.
How would it? despite hormones influencing hunger cues, that person still makes the choice to eat. Also, if someone does have a medical condition that impacts the food they need not consume, such as PCOS then after being diagnosed by a doctor, they would then know this and choose an appropriate lifestyle choice. However, no matter if they choose to ignore that lifestyle choice or if someone is choosing to eat from hunger cues, the food they pick or the time of day in which they eat that food does not matter, if my hormones were screaming at me to eat chocolate at 3am it is not set in stone that i have to, cravings actually can be ignored for one, a lot of people find that hard to do but it is something people can do, they also have a choice on how much of it they want to consume if they can't ignore it, if they choose to sit there and eat 5 chocolate bars and use their entire days worth of calories, thats on them then, hormones may cause the strong desire but again they can be ignored.
deficit is deficit. You choose to keep your deficit or eat it. Paying attention to your own body helps plan ahead and use your calories more wisely so you can make sure of that. @blambo61 -- People who claim that they can't lose weight because their hormones cause them to eat and feel hungry are simply using that as an excuse, otherwise everyone with a hormone imbalance would just forever be fat, but plenty of people have successfully lost weight even with hormone issues, it takes patience to find the math that will get you there and it takes awareness of how you need to plan, and it takes strategy to find the lifestyle that will best help you but if you are just going to throw in the white towel, don't blame the food picked, hormones or the sun or the moon being in the sky for it, you still make conscious choices in the end and if you plan right, the time of day and choice of food makes no difference.
People can choose but it is much easier if you don't feel like your starving all them time. How many of the "only CICO matters" crowd has yo-yo dieted and gained weight back? I bet a significant percentage. Why, because it is difficult. Hunger influences on eating should not be completely ignored.
The failure rate for almost diets is like 80-90%. And there is no CICO diet.9 -
It is that simple. In fact, people are very good at losing weight; i can bet almost everyone you know has lost weight at one time. Its the maintenance that is hard because people never learn strategies to get there amd often take super aggressive approaches to lose weight. MFP just makes it easy to quantify.
^^ This is absolutely right. Maintenance is the hardest part for many people, not losing weight. I'm 70 years old, was a skinny kid who started putting on weight in fourth grade due primarily to emotional eating. I've taken off considerable weight several times since becoming an adult, doing diet pills, medically supervised liquid diet, Nutrisystem, Weight Watchers, support groups, low fat diets, low carb diets. They all worked if I reduced my calorie intake. But until I realized it's about making a permanent lifestyle change, I'd put it right back on again. You have to permanently change your attitude and beliefs about food or you'll pack the pounds back on again.
I've found for me this means: recognizing my hunger cues and asking myself if I really am hungry when I want to eat something, not eating mindlessly or emotionally, monitoring my input (even if I get to the point where I can just eyeball portions), weighing myself at least once a week, reducing my caloric input if I find my weight creeping up until I get back down again, finding better ways to manage stress and negative emotions than feeding my face.14 -
HellYeahItsKriss wrote: »Everyone is partially right. A deficit is all that matters in losing weight but what and when you eat effect the deficit. Hormones can cause a person to absorb more or excrete more and can have impacts on hunger which all effect deficits.
How would it? despite hormones influencing hunger cues, that person still makes the choice to eat. Also, if someone does have a medical condition that impacts the food they need not consume, such as PCOS then after being diagnosed by a doctor, they would then know this and choose an appropriate lifestyle choice. However, no matter if they choose to ignore that lifestyle choice or if someone is choosing to eat from hunger cues, the food they pick or the time of day in which they eat that food does not matter, if my hormones were screaming at me to eat chocolate at 3am it is not set in stone that i have to, cravings actually can be ignored for one, a lot of people find that hard to do but it is something people can do, they also have a choice on how much of it they want to consume if they can't ignore it, if they choose to sit there and eat 5 chocolate bars and use their entire days worth of calories, thats on them then, hormones may cause the strong desire but again they can be ignored.
deficit is deficit. You choose to keep your deficit or eat it. Paying attention to your own body helps plan ahead and use your calories more wisely so you can make sure of that. @blambo61 -- People who claim that they can't lose weight because their hormones cause them to eat and feel hungry are simply using that as an excuse, otherwise everyone with a hormone imbalance would just forever be fat, but plenty of people have successfully lost weight even with hormone issues, it takes patience to find the math that will get you there and it takes awareness of how you need to plan, and it takes strategy to find the lifestyle that will best help you but if you are just going to throw in the white towel, don't blame the food picked, hormones or the sun or the moon being in the sky for it, you still make conscious choices in the end and if you plan right, the time of day and choice of food makes no difference.
People can choose but it is much easier if you don't feel like your starving all them time. How many of the "only CICO matters" crowd has yo-yo dieted and gained weight back? I bet a significant percentage. Why, because it is difficult. Hunger influences on eating should not be completely ignored.
The failure rate for almost diets is like 80-90%. And there is no CICO diet.
This. I'm a contributor to those statistics. I'm perfectly capable of losing weight with enough incentive, but was never able to sustain the loss. The reason was the same every time - I would reach my goal weight, then continue losing because that's all I knew how to do. At some point I would break, and pile all the weight back on.
I'm at goal weight again, (thanks in great part to these forums). I lost by eating the same foods I ate when I was gaining, but controlling portions (calories). By not having restricted myself to a food plan that didn't incorporate foods I love and didn't take into account what kinds of food keep me from being hungry all the time, one of the challenges I won't face while maintaining is trying to continue eating in a way that I don't find satisfying while losing the incentive of seeing the downward trend on the scale. I think this is possibly the single biggest contributor to regaining after weight loss.11 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »I don't understand all this debating. On the one hand we have the die hard Cico folk who ignore hormones and then on the other hand we have the hormonal folk who ignore Cico. Why can't we have BOTH??? We need a calorie deficit and a hormonal balance. This is why I follow Dr Jade Teta's protocol. He addresses how to do a calorie deficit in line with balancing hormones. Perfect. As some one who has PCOS I find his work very enlightening.
See, there is a sort of a miscommunication happening. CICO simply means the balance of incoming and outgoing calories, and that tipping the balance to one side or another is the only way to lose/gain fat. It means nothing else. It doesn't say anything about the quality of food or its nutrients. It doesn't say anything about how sustainable is a particular diet for a certain individual. It doesn't say anything about hormones or health conditions that affect how many calories a person absorbs/burns (yes, these exist and the CICO folks don't deny them). It doesn't say anything about how eating a certain way helps one health condition or another. These are all separate topics. The issues with the "hormone folks" is that they deny the very fundament of weight control.
There is nothing wrong with following an approach that is beneficial for a certain health condition, but that can be achieved without believing woo. I have a few hormonal and physical conditions that affect how many calories I burn. Being aware of that helps me develop strategies that insure that my calories in are fewer than calories out taking these conditions into account. Fung denies that calories have anything to do with weight gain in people with hormonal issues (and goes further to say that hormonal issues are the cause for all weight gain). That's a load of... Yeah. He's a master of saying things that are technically true, but mean nothing in context. That's the definition of a quack.
Yes I agree with you but I also find those people frustrating who think it's just calories in and out and THATS IT. what so the human body is that simple??? No we're so complex that scientists and nutrition experts are only starting to look at female fat loss now! Our hormones change every single week, wow. When we start our menstrual cycle then estrogen is higher and that helps with pushing our workouts as females are stronger, during ovulation that's when we are the strongest and then during the later phase of the cycle (follicular phase) progesterone is higher and energy levels can plummet just before the period begins. I learnt this from Lyle McDonald's podcast with Mike Mathews and from Dr Jade Teta.
https://www.muscleforlife.com/lyle-mcdonald-podcast/
https://www.metaboliceffect.com/the-female-fat-loss-formula/
Before, just by counting calories I was not getting any results but after following these guys I now know how to work counting calories, macros along with my hormones!
Hormone fluctuations and all that comes with them is part of CO. They aren’t “more” than CICO...they’re part of it.13 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Things that give me uncontrollable hunger; 1. Fats and 2. Fasting
I IF alright because I always wake up vaguely nauseated, but the last time I had to fast (for a colonoscopy), I got one of the worst migraines I ever had. I actually had to cancel the colonoscopy because I couldn't stop vomiting long enough to leave the house to go get it.
I really don't get this whole "thing" about fasting for a couple of days and what it's supposed to do for you and am just waiting for the day when it all goes away.
And yes, fats leave me hungry too. A breakfast of something like just eggs and cheese would leave me famished.
I feel this way about the hardcore Keto dieters. And some might say that the people here who are pro eating whatever you want boast this method just as much as... but honestly.. I really don't believe the hype of it.. I am sure the people who feel satiated on a high fat diet might find it a long term success, especially if those foods that help them get there are foods they actually enjoy regularly.. And it may kill cravings for some, but i really don't believe it kills cravings for everyone.. I really do believe that there is more people out there who eat a variety of foods consisting of all macros and should simply start by eating less of what they enjoy before jumping into a specific list of foods diet unless for some reason they feel it necessary if eating whatever they enjoy doesn't work for them in moderation. The ones who go to every board where someone is having some confusion or problems and all they do is post "Keto" like it's the solution of all problems. At least with a diet consisting of all food options it gives you the opportunity to figure out what keeps you as an individual satiated.. If fats don't keep you full and they don't curb cravings for you long term.. because we all know that new diet motivation can often give someone the impression that they don't miss those foods.. are you really going to struggle through a diet that isn't working for you under false pretenses when in the end it really is all about calories in and calories out and that keto is a method to achieving a deficit for some and not a solution for everyone?
But you see it in the threads a lot.. people starting keto after reading about it somewhere else and believe this diet is going to make them lose weight fast, burn more fat and be the diet to cure their sugar or carb addiction.. But you know, just my opinion and all..
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HellYeahItsKriss wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Things that give me uncontrollable hunger; 1. Fats and 2. Fasting
I IF alright because I always wake up vaguely nauseated, but the last time I had to fast (for a colonoscopy), I got one of the worst migraines I ever had. I actually had to cancel the colonoscopy because I couldn't stop vomiting long enough to leave the house to go get it.
I really don't get this whole "thing" about fasting for a couple of days and what it's supposed to do for you and am just waiting for the day when it all goes away.
And yes, fats leave me hungry too. A breakfast of something like just eggs and cheese would leave me famished.
I feel this way about the hardcore Keto dieters. And some might say that the people here who are pro eating whatever you want boast this method just as much as... but honestly.. I really don't believe the hype of it.. I am sure the people who feel satiated on a high fat diet might find it a long term success, especially if those foods that help them get there are foods they actually enjoy regularly.. And it may kill cravings for some, but i really don't believe it kills cravings for everyone.. I really do believe that there is more people out there who eat a variety of foods consisting of all macros and should simply start by eating less of what they enjoy before jumping into a specific list of foods diet unless for some reason they feel it necessary if eating whatever they enjoy doesn't work for them in moderation. The ones who go to every board where someone is having some confusion or problems and all they do is post "Keto" like it's the solution of all problems. At least with a diet consisting of all food options it gives you the opportunity to figure out what keeps you as an individual satiated.. If fats don't keep you full and they don't curb cravings for you long term.. because we all know that new diet motivation can often give someone the impression that they don't miss those foods.. are you really going to struggle through a diet that isn't working for you under false pretenses when in the end it really is all about calories in and calories out and that keto is a method to achieving a deficit for some and not a solution for everyone?
But you see it in the threads a lot.. people starting keto after reading about it somewhere else and believe this diet is going to make them lose weight fast, burn more fat and be the diet to cure their sugar or carb addiction.. But you know, just my opinion and all..
Well, I don't know that keto is necessary. I think low carb can be beneficial for people who have trouble moderating things, but I think a lot of them coming into it have very poor diets to begin with and need to learn how to eat and enjoy better foods overall on the whole and how to have those treat foods in context.
I'll give you an example of my day so far. I just had my first meal at 2:00 and it will hold me until dinner at 7;00. It was 226 grams of low fat cottage cheese on three rice cakes topped with 100 grams of avocado. After that? I had a fun sized bag of M & M's.
Context, as you can see, was important. So was dosage. That pack of M & M's was 60 calories. I'm not crazed with cravings, and I had carbs and sugar. But I had healthy food too.
However, it took me years to get to this point, and getting here took periods of revamping my diet and learning to make better choices. Maybe for some people, keto is training wheels. Who knows. I just hope most of them are eating more vegetables than I remember seeing in some food diaries.12 -
Yeah, i guess thats what i meant by necessary i suppose.. if you start off with everything and are constantly tweaking things and finding what works for you, you could find that low carb works for you.. Training wheels in regards to keto sounds fairly accurate for people who aren't going to treat it as a yo-yo diet and do it for a while, find it hard to maintain and quit, if they have the common sense to realize its not sustainable and change and add more carbs, I guess i could see it as a starting point of adding things, rather then starting with everything and realize that they do better with fewer carbs. But i think a lot of people starting out do get into keto and low carb for the wrong reasons or beliefs that they can't have carbs if they want to lose weight or its the way to lose weight faster then any other method of deficit.
It took me years to realize i need treats and especially chocolate in my diet or i would go crazy lol.. treats complete my day, i feel like something is missing without them, i am just not sitting there eating 2-3 bags of chocolates like i used to and know that i like something sweet after a meal. i handle my cravings, i think too many people believe that cravings should not exist at all for certain foods. period. I can have cravings for anything, it doesn't just have to be sweets, Sometimes i get cravings for raspberry vinaigrette salad dressing and will eat large platefuls of salad just to taste it, I get cravings for canned peas, I went through a phase where i craved nothing but chicken with that chipotle mango spice on it from clubhouse. I crave hellmans mayo sometimes. I often go on homemade turkey soup kicks where i eat that both meals, sometimes for weeks. Guacamole used to be another thing. But why is it okay to have cravings for these things but not sweets? I mean if a craving is strong enough to cause you to over eat and go into your deficit, is that okay because it's not a demonized no nutritional value food like sweets are? are you just supposed to eliminate everything that becomes a craving? Or am i the only person in the world who gets cravings for random foods like this? lol1 -
suzannesimmons3 wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »HellYeahItsKriss wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Things that give me uncontrollable hunger; 1. Fats and 2. Fasting
I IF alright because I always wake up vaguely nauseated, but the last time I had to fast (for a colonoscopy), I got one of the worst migraines I ever had. I actually had to cancel the colonoscopy because I couldn't stop vomiting long enough to leave the house to go get it.
I really don't get this whole "thing" about fasting for a couple of days and what it's supposed to do for you and am just waiting for the day when it all goes away.
And yes, fats leave me hungry too. A breakfast of something like just eggs and cheese would leave me famished.
I feel this way about the hardcore Keto dieters. And some might say that the people here who are pro eating whatever you want boast this method just as much as... but honestly.. I really don't believe the hype of it.. I am sure the people who feel satiated on a high fat diet might find it a long term success, especially if those foods that help them get there are foods they actually enjoy regularly.. And it may kill cravings for some, but i really don't believe it kills cravings for everyone.. I really do believe that there is more people out there who eat a variety of foods consisting of all macros and should simply start by eating less of what they enjoy before jumping into a specific list of foods diet unless for some reason they feel it necessary if eating whatever they enjoy doesn't work for them in moderation. The ones who go to every board where someone is having some confusion or problems and all they do is post "Keto" like it's the solution of all problems. At least with a diet consisting of all food options it gives you the opportunity to figure out what keeps you as an individual satiated.. If fats don't keep you full and they don't curb cravings for you long term.. because we all know that new diet motivation can often give someone the impression that they don't miss those foods.. are you really going to struggle through a diet that isn't working for you under false pretenses when in the end it really is all about calories in and calories out and that keto is a method to achieving a deficit for some and not a solution for everyone?
But you see it in the threads a lot.. people starting keto after reading about it somewhere else and believe this diet is going to make them lose weight fast, burn more fat and be the diet to cure their sugar or carb addiction.. But you know, just my opinion and all..
Well, I don't know that keto is necessary. I think low carb can be beneficial for people who have trouble moderating things, but I think a lot of them coming into it have very poor diets to begin with and need to learn how to eat and enjoy better foods overall on the whole and how to have those treat foods in context.
I'll give you an example of my day so far. I just had my first meal at 2:00 and it will hold me until dinner at 7;00. It was 226 grams of low fat cottage cheese on three rice cakes topped with 100 grams of avocado. After that? I had a fun sized bag of M & M's.
Context, as you can see, was important. So was dosage. That pack of M & M's was 60 calories. I'm not crazed with cravings, and I had carbs and sugar. But I had healthy food too.
However, it took me years to get to this point, and getting here took periods of revamping my diet and learning to make better choices. Maybe for some people, keto is training wheels. Who knows. I just hope most of them are eating more vegetables than I remember seeing in some food diaries.
Keto don't have veg much...too many carbs.
Some do. Some eat to 50 grams and count net carbs. Some keto people who are active eat more carbs and count net and get in lots of leafy greens.
Then you get the hard core types that think it's either too much trouble or don't trust the whole net carb thing and eat less than 20 grams of carbs a day (and yes, I've seen them talk about it) and you're right, they're not getting many vegetables.
So then what those people do is start to debate whether vegetables are valuable in the diet or not (insert eye rolling gif because I can't even).
I think here an exception in the discussion should be made for epileptics eating keto to control seizures. Because they are eating an entirely different form of the diet than most of the typical keto dieters we're all talking about anyway. But I thought I'd bring it up just for the sake of completeness. They have to have a very, very high fat intake, IIRC.6
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