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"Natural foods" vs "others"
Replies
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Just because a food preserves well, does that make it necessarily bad? Salt, sugar, and vinegar were the top preservative agents until refrigeration became readily available.
So this would include all the pickles, jams, and jellies.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Century_egg
Preserving food within reason ( a few months) is different than the disturbingly long shelf life.
An opened bag of Doritos compared to an open jar of pickles or some salted meat? My guess is the the meat an pickles will go bad first. Do Doritos even go bad? I have never seen it. Then again, in my house, a bag of Doritos will disappear faster
than salted meat or a jar of pickles. I've seen mouldy ham and pickle before.
Real pickles (traditional fermented or salt brine) last a really, really long time without refrigeration - months, easily. So do traditional salt meats. Foods like this are how humans got through long ocean voyages in the sail era.
The modem versions are not designed to last outside refrigeration. They don't, despite "artificial" preservatives in some (not just salt).
Doritos will get rancid or stale after days to short weeks, unless tightly sealed. (A friend told me.
) They'll still be safe to eat, but no longer "hyperpalatable".
I'm thinking no one read the century egg link.
And I don't really see how any of this "how long it lasts" stuff has any bearing on the main point. Every once in a while, it seems archeologists or someone finds some hundreds of years old food still well preserved enough to be safely eaten (grain, oil, wine), maybe in a shipwreck or somesuch, though I don't have a cite. I doubt it's "artificial".
So what?
Darn. I have a long reply and lost it.
So what? Well, essentially, I am not trying to prove you wrong, just stating my own opinion. I believe you responded to my posted opinion.
I believe that highly processed and refined foods (which generally have a longer shelf life than whole foods)are not the best foods for best health. They are not great foods, IMO. They are not evil. They do not need to be avoided for life. They will not kill you (unless really unlucky). You are not a bad person if you eat them.
I had bacon for breakfast - a processed food. Studies show that regular consumption of it may raise my risk of colon cancer from 5-6%. If I just had eggs or a salmon fillet, it probably would have benefited my overall health more than bacon would. I know this but I still choose to eat it.
Likewise, foods like Doritos will generally not improve the health of someone more than whole foods like a steak or salad would, if we look past the need for calories. Will eating them a few times a month hurt you? Probably not. Would your overall health be better off if you never ate them? Probably. If you ate them frequently and in large amounts would it negatively affect your health in time? Probably. IMO
IMO, some foods are better for your health than others. That's all.
I think I was not clear. The "so what" was meant as "what does how long a food keeps have to do with the overall point". I don't think that "edible things that keep a long time" and "edible things that are nutrient dense and contribute well to a healthy diet" have any relevant relationship to one another. There's overlap in the Venn diagram, but it's pretty meaningless.
Some things that keep a long time have "artificial" preservatives (as I understand that term to be in use here - it's a little fuzzy to me). Some things that keep a long time have "natural" preservatives (dehydration, salt, vinegar - though maybe those aren't "natural" in terms of this discussion?). Some edible things just inherently keep a long time because of their nature.
I don't think how long something will remain edible without refrigeration has much to do with how nutritionally valuable it is.
I quoted your post simply because it was the most recent in a multi-post sub-thread about food preservation - nothing particularly personal intended.
Nothing taken personally.I believe that highly processed and refined foods (which generally have a longer shelf life than whole foods) are not the best foods for best health.
I don't think the preservatives are always a negative thing. Shelf life came into it for me because refined and highly processed foods, that I think should be eaten in limited quantities or avoided for best health through nutrition, tend to have a longer shelf life.
Long shelf life and being highly processed and refined tend to occur together although there are exceptions like some grains or oils and was pointed out up thread. Uncooked quinoa might last just as long as (for example) Doritos but it may contribute to best health more than Doritos would.
I agree that how long a food remains edible is not always the best indicator of its nutritional value, but it can be an indicator, IMO.0 -
nettiklive wrote: »nettiklive wrote: »Genuine question: do those of you who don't care about artificial additives in food also don't care about the source of the ingredients? As in, where your meat, produce etc comes from, whether it's organic, if seafood is imported and farm-raised etc? Again this is something that is very standard where I live, everyone tries to get the best ingredients they can afford and as local/seasonal as possible, I don't buy all organic but always organic meats and dairy at least for the kids (my husband eats a lot of chicken so I'll often get large packages of conventional chicken breasts for him otherwise we'd go broke lol); wild-caught fish and seafood as there are concerns about farm-raised, and we try to mostly avoid imported seafood when possible (which is most grocery store frozen seafood) since I read it is all produced in Asia with very little regulations and heavy metals and other contaminants have been found in large doses. I will get some shrimp every once in a while if I get a craving but I try to limit. In the summer, I try to buy produce local and from farmer's markets if possible.
Curious, do all of you consider all that 'woo' too?? No one cares? As I said, caring about this stuff is very normal around where I live so reading how no one cares on here seems strange. Do you all also use traditional cleaning supplies? Again, everyone I know has pretty much switched to either homemade solutions such as vinegar or natural-based cleaners to avoid the extra chemicals. Also all BS?
I don't know where you live. Where I live (center of the palm in Michigan), the big grocery chains are full of people who're buying conventional produce from all over the world, and lots of mass-market cleaning supplies.
Are there people who think as you do? Sure. Could I surround myself with mainly those people? Probably.
I enjoy having a diversity of friends from varying economic groups, ethnic backgrounds, political outlooks, and more. Therefore, I tend to refrain from cross-examining about their food or cleaning product choices, unless those directly come up in conversation. If the subject comes up, I state my personal practices and reasoning, but avoid suggesting theirs are wrong. Perhaps this is not the way to change the world, but in my world it's a way to respect people and not assume my way is the best or only way. I'm certainly not going to argue a point without decent science on my side.
So, I have no idea what "everyone" around me does, because it's not a frequent or interesting conversation topic.
I've mentioned my food preferences in a previous post, and explained my reasoning. I won't repeat that here. I tend to clean with mild things (water, baking soda, salt, vinegar) most of the time, unless and until that doesn't work for some reason, then I sometimes use mass-market cleaning products.
As a vegetarian, I could go all "How could you possibly eat commercially-produced meat, when doing so requires bucketloads more protein than you get as output - do you care?" or "How can you eat fish, what with the over-fishing of our oceans and the destruction of habitat caused by commercial fisheries - is that just BS?" but I don't. And I won't, because I don't feel that way about it.
Here's my view: As an economically comfortable first-world modern human, I'm (a) very fortunate personally, and (b) inherently and unavoidably a small bundle of global environmental and economic harm. I can't fix that harm thing. I think good people make some choices that reduce the harms they create, and that - since it can't be completely avoided - it makes sense for people to choose the forms of harm reduction that are most achievable within their lifestyle and values.
Speaking only for myself, I don't find black and white thinking about it to be helpful to me; I bear too much first-world responsibility to be judgemental about others' choices (and it doesn't help with my goal of surrounding myself with diverse people); worrying routinely about small amounts of weird stuff in my food hurts my happiness more than it helps my health; and I believe that statements of the form "everyone I know does X" tend to be false (including the observation that people who don't do X will keep their mouths shut when they perceive themselves to be out of step with social norms in groups they otherwise want to socialize with).
Others are welcome to feel differently.
Just to note, I don't 'cross-examine' anyone about their habits either, it just so happens that as mostly moms of young kids, these topics come up in chit chat often.
The way others eat doesn't concern me in the least. It was just so normal to me to see people avoid junk food additives, try to make good choices with ingredients etc, that I just assumed it was 'normal' and typical for people active on a health and nutrition forum, of all places, and was very surprised to be proven wrong and be blasted for stating the opinion that some foods are inherently better choices than others. Oh well. I live in the PNW if that tells you anything; I've lived up and down the coast from Canada to California and have encountered the same philosophy. I can see how it may be different in other parts of the country.
And no, not all people in the PNW think this way.
I buy most of our fish off the boat twice a year to stock our freezer because we prefer the taste and we're lucky enough to be able to do so. We have a farm share from mid-Spring until late-Fall because we like the vegetables and enjoy them. I also go to the farmer's market regularly during the summer.
We also buy plenty of boxed meals and sides, TV dinners, etc., etc. and I never give it a second thought. I rarely buy organic unless it's actually cheaper.
I use a lot of baking soda for cleaning because it's cheap and works well. I also use regular commercial products.
I know very few people who go to the extremes you appear to, most people try to eat a well-rounded diet of food they enjoy and get some exercise.18 -
nettiklive wrote: »nettiklive wrote: »Genuine question: do those of you who don't care about artificial additives in food also don't care about the source of the ingredients? As in, where your meat, produce etc comes from, whether it's organic, if seafood is imported and farm-raised etc? Again this is something that is very standard where I live, everyone tries to get the best ingredients they can afford and as local/seasonal as possible, I don't buy all organic but always organic meats and dairy at least for the kids (my husband eats a lot of chicken so I'll often get large packages of conventional chicken breasts for him otherwise we'd go broke lol); wild-caught fish and seafood as there are concerns about farm-raised, and we try to mostly avoid imported seafood when possible (which is most grocery store frozen seafood) since I read it is all produced in Asia with very little regulations and heavy metals and other contaminants have been found in large doses. I will get some shrimp every once in a while if I get a craving but I try to limit. In the summer, I try to buy produce local and from farmer's markets if possible.
Curious, do all of you consider all that 'woo' too?? No one cares? As I said, caring about this stuff is very normal around where I live so reading how no one cares on here seems strange. Do you all also use traditional cleaning supplies? Again, everyone I know has pretty much switched to either homemade solutions such as vinegar or natural-based cleaners to avoid the extra chemicals. Also all BS?
I don't know where you live. Where I live (center of the palm in Michigan), the big grocery chains are full of people who're buying conventional produce from all over the world, and lots of mass-market cleaning supplies.
Are there people who think as you do? Sure. Could I surround myself with mainly those people? Probably.
I enjoy having a diversity of friends from varying economic groups, ethnic backgrounds, political outlooks, and more. Therefore, I tend to refrain from cross-examining about their food or cleaning product choices, unless those directly come up in conversation. If the subject comes up, I state my personal practices and reasoning, but avoid suggesting theirs are wrong. Perhaps this is not the way to change the world, but in my world it's a way to respect people and not assume my way is the best or only way. I'm certainly not going to argue a point without decent science on my side.
So, I have no idea what "everyone" around me does, because it's not a frequent or interesting conversation topic.
I've mentioned my food preferences in a previous post, and explained my reasoning. I won't repeat that here. I tend to clean with mild things (water, baking soda, salt, vinegar) most of the time, unless and until that doesn't work for some reason, then I sometimes use mass-market cleaning products.
As a vegetarian, I could go all "How could you possibly eat commercially-produced meat, when doing so requires bucketloads more protein than you get as output - do you care?" or "How can you eat fish, what with the over-fishing of our oceans and the destruction of habitat caused by commercial fisheries - is that just BS?" but I don't. And I won't, because I don't feel that way about it.
Here's my view: As an economically comfortable first-world modern human, I'm (a) very fortunate personally, and (b) inherently and unavoidably a small bundle of global environmental and economic harm. I can't fix that harm thing. I think good people make some choices that reduce the harms they create, and that - since it can't be completely avoided - it makes sense for people to choose the forms of harm reduction that are most achievable within their lifestyle and values.
Speaking only for myself, I don't find black and white thinking about it to be helpful to me; I bear too much first-world responsibility to be judgemental about others' choices (and it doesn't help with my goal of surrounding myself with diverse people); worrying routinely about small amounts of weird stuff in my food hurts my happiness more than it helps my health; and I believe that statements of the form "everyone I know does X" tend to be false (including the observation that people who don't do X will keep their mouths shut when they perceive themselves to be out of step with social norms in groups they otherwise want to socialize with).
Others are welcome to feel differently.
Just to note, I don't 'cross-examine' anyone about their habits either, it just so happens that as mostly moms of young kids, these topics come up in chit chat often.
The way others eat doesn't concern me in the least. It was just so normal to me to see people avoid junk food additives, try to make good choices with ingredients etc, that I just assumed it was 'normal' and typical for people active on a health and nutrition forum, of all places, and was very surprised to be proven wrong and be blasted for stating the opinion that some foods are inherently better choices than others. Oh well. I live in the PNW if that tells you anything; I've lived up and down the coast from Canada to California and have encountered the same philosophy. I can see how it may be different in other parts of the country.
And no, not all people in the PNW think this way.
I buy most of our fish off the boat twice a year to stock our freezer because we prefer the taste and we're lucky enough to be able to do so. We have a farm share from mid-Spring until late-Fall because we like the vegetables and enjoy them. I also go to the farmer's market regularly during the summer.
We also buy plenty of boxed meals and sides, TV dinners, etc., etc. and I never give it a second thought. I rarely buy organic unless it's actually cheaper.
I use a lot of baking soda for cleaning because it's cheap and works well. I also use regular commercial products.
I know very few people who go to the extremes you appear to, most people try to eat a well-rounded diet of food they enjoy and get some exercise.
I was born and raised in southern California, lived there for almost 50 years. In that entire time, I never met/knew anybody who went to those extremes. Not one single person ever.10 -
nettiklive wrote: »nettiklive wrote: »Genuine question: do those of you who don't care about artificial additives in food also don't care about the source of the ingredients? As in, where your meat, produce etc comes from, whether it's organic, if seafood is imported and farm-raised etc? Again this is something that is very standard where I live, everyone tries to get the best ingredients they can afford and as local/seasonal as possible, I don't buy all organic but always organic meats and dairy at least for the kids (my husband eats a lot of chicken so I'll often get large packages of conventional chicken breasts for him otherwise we'd go broke lol); wild-caught fish and seafood as there are concerns about farm-raised, and we try to mostly avoid imported seafood when possible (which is most grocery store frozen seafood) since I read it is all produced in Asia with very little regulations and heavy metals and other contaminants have been found in large doses. I will get some shrimp every once in a while if I get a craving but I try to limit. In the summer, I try to buy produce local and from farmer's markets if possible.
Curious, do all of you consider all that 'woo' too?? No one cares? As I said, caring about this stuff is very normal around where I live so reading how no one cares on here seems strange. Do you all also use traditional cleaning supplies? Again, everyone I know has pretty much switched to either homemade solutions such as vinegar or natural-based cleaners to avoid the extra chemicals. Also all BS?
I don't know where you live. Where I live (center of the palm in Michigan), the big grocery chains are full of people who're buying conventional produce from all over the world, and lots of mass-market cleaning supplies.
Are there people who think as you do? Sure. Could I surround myself with mainly those people? Probably.
I enjoy having a diversity of friends from varying economic groups, ethnic backgrounds, political outlooks, and more. Therefore, I tend to refrain from cross-examining about their food or cleaning product choices, unless those directly come up in conversation. If the subject comes up, I state my personal practices and reasoning, but avoid suggesting theirs are wrong. Perhaps this is not the way to change the world, but in my world it's a way to respect people and not assume my way is the best or only way. I'm certainly not going to argue a point without decent science on my side.
So, I have no idea what "everyone" around me does, because it's not a frequent or interesting conversation topic.
I've mentioned my food preferences in a previous post, and explained my reasoning. I won't repeat that here. I tend to clean with mild things (water, baking soda, salt, vinegar) most of the time, unless and until that doesn't work for some reason, then I sometimes use mass-market cleaning products.
As a vegetarian, I could go all "How could you possibly eat commercially-produced meat, when doing so requires bucketloads more protein than you get as output - do you care?" or "How can you eat fish, what with the over-fishing of our oceans and the destruction of habitat caused by commercial fisheries - is that just BS?" but I don't. And I won't, because I don't feel that way about it.
Here's my view: As an economically comfortable first-world modern human, I'm (a) very fortunate personally, and (b) inherently and unavoidably a small bundle of global environmental and economic harm. I can't fix that harm thing. I think good people make some choices that reduce the harms they create, and that - since it can't be completely avoided - it makes sense for people to choose the forms of harm reduction that are most achievable within their lifestyle and values.
Speaking only for myself, I don't find black and white thinking about it to be helpful to me; I bear too much first-world responsibility to be judgemental about others' choices (and it doesn't help with my goal of surrounding myself with diverse people); worrying routinely about small amounts of weird stuff in my food hurts my happiness more than it helps my health; and I believe that statements of the form "everyone I know does X" tend to be false (including the observation that people who don't do X will keep their mouths shut when they perceive themselves to be out of step with social norms in groups they otherwise want to socialize with).
Others are welcome to feel differently.
Just to note, I don't 'cross-examine' anyone about their habits either, it just so happens that as mostly moms of young kids, these topics come up in chit chat often.
The way others eat doesn't concern me in the least. It was just so normal to me to see people avoid junk food additives, try to make good choices with ingredients etc, that I just assumed it was 'normal' and typical for people active on a health and nutrition forum, of all places, and was very surprised to be proven wrong and be blasted for stating the opinion that some foods are inherently better choices than others. Oh well. I live in the PNW if that tells you anything; I've lived up and down the coast from Canada to California and have encountered the same philosophy. I can see how it may be different in other parts of the country.
OK, now I'm curious. I've never been to the PNW. Where you live, do the large retail stores not stock a wide range of conventional non-organic produce and meats, imported products from regions with lax regulation, or mass-marketed chemical cleaning products?
I've visited CA (so limited experience there), spent longer time periods in AZ and NV, and visited grocery stores and Walmarts all across the North to South dimension of the East side of the country. and found those kinds of products ubiquitous, the aisles that stock them busy, and most shopping carts in the check-out holding some of those things. Is it different where you live?
I'm not baiting you; I'm sincerely curious, because it's so outside my experience.
edited: missing word.
Who said stores don't stock them?
They do; however more and more aisles are stocked with all sorts of healthier or 'natural' alternatives to traditional snacks etc; there is also a large emphasis on stocking organic, local, and seasonal produce (with signs/ marketing); stores advertise, for instance, local wild-caught salmon when in season, etc. More and more stores follow the example of Whole Foods and do not stock *any* foods with artificial additives (though I know WF sells its share of junk so don't throw that in my face). In equal driving distance around me there is one Safeway and one local chain supermarket, a Trader Joe's, a Whole Foods, and two other local markets with a similar offering, stocking only natural/ organic foods. These stores tend to be just as busy, if not busier, than the conventional supermarkets. And even more and more 'traditional' companies are cutting out artificial additives in food, as pointed out above.
Our schools don't serve soda or packaged junk food; most families cook from scratch most meals; I have yet to go over to someone's home and see soda or Twinkies anywhere - it just doesn't happen anymore, most parents here would balk at someone offering their kid Coke on a playdate for instance.
I'm just comparing it to even a couple of decades ago when I was a teen, and 90% of what's available now in pretty much every supermarket could only be found in dusty 'health food' stores and terms such as organic, never mind local or seasonal, was considered hippie bs. A lot more awareness has driven up the demand for all of that. When I was in high school, teens would go to 7-11 to buy Slurpees and candy on lunch breaks; when my sister, who is 11 years younger, was a teen, she and her friends made protein pancakes and kale smoothies. There has certainly been a huge shift when it comes to food, in my eyes.18 -
I don't waste my money on "organic" foods because there is no proven health benefit to them. It's nothing more than false virtue signaling based upon misinformation and propaganda.
Here's an article (from a "real foods" devotee, no less) on the truth about the "organic" foods scam: https://dontwastethecrumbs.com/2015/03/14-facts-the-organic-industry-doesnt-want-you-to-know/17 -
nettiklive wrote: »nettiklive wrote: »Genuine question: do those of you who don't care about artificial additives in food also don't care about the source of the ingredients? As in, where your meat, produce etc comes from, whether it's organic, if seafood is imported and farm-raised etc? Again this is something that is very standard where I live, everyone tries to get the best ingredients they can afford and as local/seasonal as possible, I don't buy all organic but always organic meats and dairy at least for the kids (my husband eats a lot of chicken so I'll often get large packages of conventional chicken breasts for him otherwise we'd go broke lol); wild-caught fish and seafood as there are concerns about farm-raised, and we try to mostly avoid imported seafood when possible (which is most grocery store frozen seafood) since I read it is all produced in Asia with very little regulations and heavy metals and other contaminants have been found in large doses. I will get some shrimp every once in a while if I get a craving but I try to limit. In the summer, I try to buy produce local and from farmer's markets if possible.
Curious, do all of you consider all that 'woo' too?? No one cares? As I said, caring about this stuff is very normal around where I live so reading how no one cares on here seems strange. Do you all also use traditional cleaning supplies? Again, everyone I know has pretty much switched to either homemade solutions such as vinegar or natural-based cleaners to avoid the extra chemicals. Also all BS?
I don't know where you live. Where I live (center of the palm in Michigan), the big grocery chains are full of people who're buying conventional produce from all over the world, and lots of mass-market cleaning supplies.
Are there people who think as you do? Sure. Could I surround myself with mainly those people? Probably.
I enjoy having a diversity of friends from varying economic groups, ethnic backgrounds, political outlooks, and more. Therefore, I tend to refrain from cross-examining about their food or cleaning product choices, unless those directly come up in conversation. If the subject comes up, I state my personal practices and reasoning, but avoid suggesting theirs are wrong. Perhaps this is not the way to change the world, but in my world it's a way to respect people and not assume my way is the best or only way. I'm certainly not going to argue a point without decent science on my side.
So, I have no idea what "everyone" around me does, because it's not a frequent or interesting conversation topic.
I've mentioned my food preferences in a previous post, and explained my reasoning. I won't repeat that here. I tend to clean with mild things (water, baking soda, salt, vinegar) most of the time, unless and until that doesn't work for some reason, then I sometimes use mass-market cleaning products.
As a vegetarian, I could go all "How could you possibly eat commercially-produced meat, when doing so requires bucketloads more protein than you get as output - do you care?" or "How can you eat fish, what with the over-fishing of our oceans and the destruction of habitat caused by commercial fisheries - is that just BS?" but I don't. And I won't, because I don't feel that way about it.
Here's my view: As an economically comfortable first-world modern human, I'm (a) very fortunate personally, and (b) inherently and unavoidably a small bundle of global environmental and economic harm. I can't fix that harm thing. I think good people make some choices that reduce the harms they create, and that - since it can't be completely avoided - it makes sense for people to choose the forms of harm reduction that are most achievable within their lifestyle and values.
Speaking only for myself, I don't find black and white thinking about it to be helpful to me; I bear too much first-world responsibility to be judgemental about others' choices (and it doesn't help with my goal of surrounding myself with diverse people); worrying routinely about small amounts of weird stuff in my food hurts my happiness more than it helps my health; and I believe that statements of the form "everyone I know does X" tend to be false (including the observation that people who don't do X will keep their mouths shut when they perceive themselves to be out of step with social norms in groups they otherwise want to socialize with).
Others are welcome to feel differently.
Just to note, I don't 'cross-examine' anyone about their habits either, it just so happens that as mostly moms of young kids, these topics come up in chit chat often.
The way others eat doesn't concern me in the least. It was just so normal to me to see people avoid junk food additives, try to make good choices with ingredients etc, that I just assumed it was 'normal' and typical for people active on a health and nutrition forum, of all places, and was very surprised to be proven wrong and be blasted for stating the opinion that some foods are inherently better choices than others. Oh well. I live in the PNW if that tells you anything; I've lived up and down the coast from Canada to California and have encountered the same philosophy. I can see how it may be different in other parts of the country.
And no, not all people in the PNW think this way.
I buy most of our fish off the boat twice a year to stock our freezer because we prefer the taste and we're lucky enough to be able to do so. We have a farm share from mid-Spring until late-Fall because we like the vegetables and enjoy them. I also go to the farmer's market regularly during the summer.
We also buy plenty of boxed meals and sides, TV dinners, etc., etc. and I never give it a second thought. I rarely buy organic unless it's actually cheaper.
I use a lot of baking soda for cleaning because it's cheap and works well. I also use regular commercial products.
I know very few people who go to the extremes you appear to, most people try to eat a well-rounded diet of food they enjoy and get some exercise.
Shrug. I don't know why everyone seems to think eating the way we do requires some sort of militant policing or why it's 'extreme'... It really doesn't feel that way to me. Like I said, it takes no effort to eat this way especially because thankfully it is much easier nowadays. I also don't really 'give it a second thought' - it is just natural to me to shop primarily the whole foods aisles in stores and to pass by boxed meals, chips, pre-packaged sweets and so on. They are not just in our routine. Our extended families eat this way too, as do our kids at friends' houses etc. So it's really a non-issue.21 -
nettiklive wrote: »nettiklive wrote: »nettiklive wrote: »Genuine question: do those of you who don't care about artificial additives in food also don't care about the source of the ingredients? As in, where your meat, produce etc comes from, whether it's organic, if seafood is imported and farm-raised etc? Again this is something that is very standard where I live, everyone tries to get the best ingredients they can afford and as local/seasonal as possible, I don't buy all organic but always organic meats and dairy at least for the kids (my husband eats a lot of chicken so I'll often get large packages of conventional chicken breasts for him otherwise we'd go broke lol); wild-caught fish and seafood as there are concerns about farm-raised, and we try to mostly avoid imported seafood when possible (which is most grocery store frozen seafood) since I read it is all produced in Asia with very little regulations and heavy metals and other contaminants have been found in large doses. I will get some shrimp every once in a while if I get a craving but I try to limit. In the summer, I try to buy produce local and from farmer's markets if possible.
Curious, do all of you consider all that 'woo' too?? No one cares? As I said, caring about this stuff is very normal around where I live so reading how no one cares on here seems strange. Do you all also use traditional cleaning supplies? Again, everyone I know has pretty much switched to either homemade solutions such as vinegar or natural-based cleaners to avoid the extra chemicals. Also all BS?
I don't know where you live. Where I live (center of the palm in Michigan), the big grocery chains are full of people who're buying conventional produce from all over the world, and lots of mass-market cleaning supplies.
Are there people who think as you do? Sure. Could I surround myself with mainly those people? Probably.
I enjoy having a diversity of friends from varying economic groups, ethnic backgrounds, political outlooks, and more. Therefore, I tend to refrain from cross-examining about their food or cleaning product choices, unless those directly come up in conversation. If the subject comes up, I state my personal practices and reasoning, but avoid suggesting theirs are wrong. Perhaps this is not the way to change the world, but in my world it's a way to respect people and not assume my way is the best or only way. I'm certainly not going to argue a point without decent science on my side.
So, I have no idea what "everyone" around me does, because it's not a frequent or interesting conversation topic.
I've mentioned my food preferences in a previous post, and explained my reasoning. I won't repeat that here. I tend to clean with mild things (water, baking soda, salt, vinegar) most of the time, unless and until that doesn't work for some reason, then I sometimes use mass-market cleaning products.
As a vegetarian, I could go all "How could you possibly eat commercially-produced meat, when doing so requires bucketloads more protein than you get as output - do you care?" or "How can you eat fish, what with the over-fishing of our oceans and the destruction of habitat caused by commercial fisheries - is that just BS?" but I don't. And I won't, because I don't feel that way about it.
Here's my view: As an economically comfortable first-world modern human, I'm (a) very fortunate personally, and (b) inherently and unavoidably a small bundle of global environmental and economic harm. I can't fix that harm thing. I think good people make some choices that reduce the harms they create, and that - since it can't be completely avoided - it makes sense for people to choose the forms of harm reduction that are most achievable within their lifestyle and values.
Speaking only for myself, I don't find black and white thinking about it to be helpful to me; I bear too much first-world responsibility to be judgemental about others' choices (and it doesn't help with my goal of surrounding myself with diverse people); worrying routinely about small amounts of weird stuff in my food hurts my happiness more than it helps my health; and I believe that statements of the form "everyone I know does X" tend to be false (including the observation that people who don't do X will keep their mouths shut when they perceive themselves to be out of step with social norms in groups they otherwise want to socialize with).
Others are welcome to feel differently.
Just to note, I don't 'cross-examine' anyone about their habits either, it just so happens that as mostly moms of young kids, these topics come up in chit chat often.
The way others eat doesn't concern me in the least. It was just so normal to me to see people avoid junk food additives, try to make good choices with ingredients etc, that I just assumed it was 'normal' and typical for people active on a health and nutrition forum, of all places, and was very surprised to be proven wrong and be blasted for stating the opinion that some foods are inherently better choices than others. Oh well. I live in the PNW if that tells you anything; I've lived up and down the coast from Canada to California and have encountered the same philosophy. I can see how it may be different in other parts of the country.
OK, now I'm curious. I've never been to the PNW. Where you live, do the large retail stores not stock a wide range of conventional non-organic produce and meats, imported products from regions with lax regulation, or mass-marketed chemical cleaning products?
I've visited CA (so limited experience there), spent longer time periods in AZ and NV, and visited grocery stores and Walmarts all across the North to South dimension of the East side of the country. and found those kinds of products ubiquitous, the aisles that stock them busy, and most shopping carts in the check-out holding some of those things. Is it different where you live?
I'm not baiting you; I'm sincerely curious, because it's so outside my experience.
edited: missing word.
Who said stores don't stock them?
They do; however more and more aisles are stocked with all sorts of healthier or 'natural' alternatives to traditional snacks etc; there is also a large emphasis on stocking organic, local, and seasonal produce (with signs/ marketing); stores advertise, for instance, local wild-caught salmon when in season, etc. More and more stores follow the example of Whole Foods and do not stock *any* foods with artificial additives (though I know WF sells its share of junk so don't throw that in my face). In equal driving distance around me there is one Safeway and one local chain supermarket, a Trader Joe's, a Whole Foods, and two other local markets with a similar offering, stocking only natural/ organic foods. These stores tend to be just as busy, if not busier, than the conventional supermarkets. And even more and more 'traditional' companies are cutting out artificial additives in food, as pointed out above.
Our schools don't serve soda or packaged junk food; most families cook from scratch most meals; I have yet to go over to someone's home and see soda or Twinkies anywhere - it just doesn't happen anymore, most parents here would balk at someone offering their kid Coke on a playdate for instance.
I'm just comparing it to even a couple of decades ago when I was a teen, and 90% of what's available now in pretty much every supermarket could only be found in dusty 'health food' stores and terms such as organic, never mind local or seasonal, was considered hippie bs. A lot more awareness has driven up the demand for all of that. When I was in high school, teens would go to 7-11 to buy Slurpees and candy on lunch breaks; when my sister, who is 11 years younger, was a teen, she and her friends made protein pancakes and kale smoothies. There has certainly been a huge shift when it comes to food, in my eyes.
I said I wasn't baiting; I wasn't. Thank you for answering.
I have WF and a couple of local health food stores within a few miles, and certainly agree that there are way more organic (etc.) foods available than when I was young, and that that has increased significantly in the big grocery chains in the last decade or so. I do shop at one of the local health food stores, Costco, WF, and farmers' markets. These places are much less patronized than the big chains, however, and the distribution of chains is denser geographically.
However, since I'm old (62), I'd say that the percentage of produce in stores that comes from local sources is lower than it was in my childhood, as transportation systems have improved so much. I may be biased by being raised in the country, where it was common to raise and can produce, and even to raise, hunt for, or fish for one's own protein sources. (I'll make the guilty admission that it amuses me when organic-focused locavore foodie friends express horror about eating squirrel. ). Farmers markets were a bigger thing when I was young, later almost vanishing, and now re-emerging on a smaller but more distributed scale.
Because of industrial agriculture, transportation improvements and distribution improvements, the range of produce and meat now available is much, much larger than it was in my childhood/teens.
BTW: I was a hippie. Kind of still am. 11 -
nettiklive wrote: »Genuine question: do those of you who don't care about artificial additives in food also don't care about the source of the ingredients? As in, where your meat, produce etc comes from, whether it's organic, if seafood is imported and farm-raised etc? Again this is something that is very standard where I live, everyone tries to get the best ingredients they can afford and as local/seasonal as possible, I don't buy all organic but always organic meats and dairy at least for the kids (my husband eats a lot of chicken so I'll often get large packages of conventional chicken breasts for him otherwise we'd go broke lol); wild-caught fish and seafood as there are concerns about farm-raised, and we try to mostly avoid imported seafood when possible (which is most grocery store frozen seafood) since I read it is all produced in Asia with very little regulations and heavy metals and other contaminants have been found in large doses. I will get some shrimp every once in a while if I get a craving but I try to limit. In the summer, I try to buy produce local and from farmer's markets if possible.
Curious, do all of you consider all that 'woo' too?? No one cares? As I said, caring about this stuff is very normal around where I live so reading how no one cares on here seems strange. Do you all also use traditional cleaning supplies? Again, everyone I know has pretty much switched to either homemade solutions such as vinegar or natural-based cleaners to avoid the extra chemicals. Also all BS?
You're very privileged.
And apparently, you only care as far enough as your pocketbook takes you in some cases, so that speaks to your caring being less of a bone deep conviction and more of a social construct, given how you describe what sounds like an equally privileged social circle.
Interesting.
27 -
nettiklive wrote: »Genuine question: do those of you who don't care about artificial additives in food also don't care about the source of the ingredients? As in, where your meat, produce etc comes from, whether it's organic, if seafood is imported and farm-raised etc? Again this is something that is very standard where I live, everyone tries to get the best ingredients they can afford and as local/seasonal as possible, I don't buy all organic but always organic meats and dairy at least for the kids (my husband eats a lot of chicken so I'll often get large packages of conventional chicken breasts for him otherwise we'd go broke lol); wild-caught fish and seafood as there are concerns about farm-raised, and we try to mostly avoid imported seafood when possible (which is most grocery store frozen seafood) since I read it is all produced in Asia with very little regulations and heavy metals and other contaminants have been found in large doses. I will get some shrimp every once in a while if I get a craving but I try to limit. In the summer, I try to buy produce local and from farmer's markets if possible.
Curious, do all of you consider all that 'woo' too?? No one cares? As I said, caring about this stuff is very normal around where I live so reading how no one cares on here seems strange. Do you all also use traditional cleaning supplies? Again, everyone I know has pretty much switched to either homemade solutions such as vinegar or natural-based cleaners to avoid the extra chemicals. Also all BS?
My food choices are primarily rooted in cost. I have a limited budget so organic, free range, grass fed, etc and even seafood are not within my means.
I guess that means we’re doomed to die. Or perhaps we’ll just be better preserved after death.
14 -
I’m just going to add some random thoughts. Brunch today was a home made waffle that includes white flour, white sugar, white salt, and canola oil. These have all taken a bad rap on occasion. It also has PB2 and is drizzled with maple syrup.
Is it a good or bad meal?
Also, I find it funny to refer to baking soda, salt and vinegar as “modern” cleaning products compared say, to Windex, Comet or Fantastic. I have all these products in my home.
Today’s brunch:
8 -
I’m just going to add some random thoughts. Brunch today was a home made waffle that includes white flour, white sugar, white salt, and canola oil. These have all taken a bad rap on occasion. It also has PB2 and is drizzled with maple syrup.
Is it a good or bad meal?
Also, I find it funny to refer to baking soda, salt and vinegar as “modern” cleaning products compared say, to Windex, Comet or Fantastic. I have all these products in my home.
Today’s brunch:
Speaking only for myself, this is a good weekend/ special-treat type breakfast. Homemade waffles, pancakes, cakes, baked goods, French toast, are all I consider as foods to be eaten in moderation as a weekend or occasional treat. This in contrast to, say, Pop Tarts, which we just never eat period.
Regular daily breakfasts for us is something like oatmeal or other hot cereals, plain yogurt with fruit, or eggs and whole grain toast, something low sugar as I find my kids are very susceptible to blood sugar swings and it affects their behavior a lot.18 -
9
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GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »nettiklive wrote: »Genuine question: do those of you who don't care about artificial additives in food also don't care about the source of the ingredients? As in, where your meat, produce etc comes from, whether it's organic, if seafood is imported and farm-raised etc? Again this is something that is very standard where I live, everyone tries to get the best ingredients they can afford and as local/seasonal as possible, I don't buy all organic but always organic meats and dairy at least for the kids (my husband eats a lot of chicken so I'll often get large packages of conventional chicken breasts for him otherwise we'd go broke lol); wild-caught fish and seafood as there are concerns about farm-raised, and we try to mostly avoid imported seafood when possible (which is most grocery store frozen seafood) since I read it is all produced in Asia with very little regulations and heavy metals and other contaminants have been found in large doses. I will get some shrimp every once in a while if I get a craving but I try to limit. In the summer, I try to buy produce local and from farmer's markets if possible.
Curious, do all of you consider all that 'woo' too?? No one cares? As I said, caring about this stuff is very normal around where I live so reading how no one cares on here seems strange. Do you all also use traditional cleaning supplies? Again, everyone I know has pretty much switched to either homemade solutions such as vinegar or natural-based cleaners to avoid the extra chemicals. Also all BS?
You're very privileged.
And apparently, you only care as far enough as your pocketbook takes you in some cases, so that speaks to your caring being less of a bone deep conviction and more of a social construct, given how you describe what sounds like an equally privileged social circle.
Interesting.
We are financially comfortable and I definitely don't skimp on food but we also don't stock our fridge with a ton of the most expensive foods. We don't eat large portions in general and we don't eat out often (more for health reasons but still), I do comparison shop and look for sales and good deals as a rule. Some foods we simply mostly avoid because we can't afford to buy them in large quantities (or could, but it wouldn't be a wise use of our budget) - like grass fed beef for instance, so we simply eat very little beef in general, or something like wild-caught local shrimp is very expensive so it's a once-a-year type treat, and other times I buy it rarely and stick to other proteins rather than buy a lot of frozen shrimp, we eat a lot of chicken and some wild salmon and the occasional lamb leg or pork tenderloin.
As I mentioned, I grew up in a family that went through two immigrations, and we came from a country where packaged junk food wasn't even a thing when we left, it was unaccessible for most of the population. Even after coming to Canada however, with very limited finances, my mom continued to feed us mostly healthy homemade meals made with inexpensive whole ingredients. In fact junk food and fast food was considered a rare treat because it was a waste of money on something essentially non-nutritious. I remember eating a lot of baked chicken drumsticks as a kid because boneless skinless breasts were too expensive; ground beef, potatoes, pasta, buckwheat (a cultural thing), etc., soups were a staple, always fresh veggies and seasonal fruit.
Money certainly helps you eat a better and more varied diet, but it's not an essential pre-requisite to avoiding junk. Many whole foods are cheaper and provide much better nutrition than packaged junk. Making food from scratch is cheaper than eating out. And certainly vinegar and baking soda is cheaper than store bought cleaners lol19 -
I've heard that before but honestly myself and everyone who knows our kids have seen them go nuts whenever they have something sugary, inevitably ending in meltdowns. My oldest especially was sensitive to swings as a toddler, and if I fed him a carby breakfast, it was a guaranteed god-awful meltdown a couple of hours later. Took me a few of those to figure out the connection. When he was in school, I attended a talk by a neuropsychologist for parents for the gifted program he attended, and one of the things she said is we need to make sure these kids have a protein and fat at every meal, never just carbs, because their brains use up glucose faster than normal and they're guaranteed to crash and a burn after a carb-only meal.24 -
nettiklive wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »nettiklive wrote: »Genuine question: do those of you who don't care about artificial additives in food also don't care about the source of the ingredients? As in, where your meat, produce etc comes from, whether it's organic, if seafood is imported and farm-raised etc? Again this is something that is very standard where I live, everyone tries to get the best ingredients they can afford and as local/seasonal as possible, I don't buy all organic but always organic meats and dairy at least for the kids (my husband eats a lot of chicken so I'll often get large packages of conventional chicken breasts for him otherwise we'd go broke lol); wild-caught fish and seafood as there are concerns about farm-raised, and we try to mostly avoid imported seafood when possible (which is most grocery store frozen seafood) since I read it is all produced in Asia with very little regulations and heavy metals and other contaminants have been found in large doses. I will get some shrimp every once in a while if I get a craving but I try to limit. In the summer, I try to buy produce local and from farmer's markets if possible.
Curious, do all of you consider all that 'woo' too?? No one cares? As I said, caring about this stuff is very normal around where I live so reading how no one cares on here seems strange. Do you all also use traditional cleaning supplies? Again, everyone I know has pretty much switched to either homemade solutions such as vinegar or natural-based cleaners to avoid the extra chemicals. Also all BS?
You're very privileged.
And apparently, you only care as far enough as your pocketbook takes you in some cases, so that speaks to your caring being less of a bone deep conviction and more of a social construct, given how you describe what sounds like an equally privileged social circle.
Interesting.
We are financially comfortable and I definitely don't skimp on food but we also don't stock our fridge with a ton of the most expensive foods. We don't eat large portions in general and we don't eat out often (more for health reasons but still), I do comparison shop and look for sales and good deals as a rule. Some foods we simply mostly avoid because we can't afford to buy them in large quantities (or could, but it wouldn't be a wise use of our budget) - like grass fed beef for instance, so we simply eat very little beef in general, or something like wild-caught local shrimp is very expensive so it's a once-a-year type treat, and other times I buy it rarely and stick to other proteins rather than buy a lot of frozen shrimp, we eat a lot of chicken and some wild salmon and the occasional lamb leg or pork tenderloin.
As I mentioned, I grew up in a family that went through two immigrations, and we came from a country where packaged junk food wasn't even a thing when we left, it was unaccessible for most of the population. Even after coming to Canada however, with very limited finances, my mom continued to feed us mostly healthy homemade meals made with inexpensive whole ingredients. In fact junk food and fast food was considered a rare treat because it was a waste of money on something essentially non-nutritious. I remember eating a lot of baked chicken drumsticks as a kid because boneless skinless breasts were too expensive; ground beef, potatoes, pasta, buckwheat (a cultural thing), etc., soups were a staple, always fresh veggies and seasonal fruit.
Money certainly helps you eat a better and more varied diet, but it's not an essential pre-requisite to avoiding junk. Many whole foods are cheaper and provide much better nutrition than packaged junk. Making food from scratch is cheaper than eating out. And certainly vinegar and baking soda is cheaper than store bought cleaners lol
You are all over the place.
Sourcing was the gist of your last post, and that was what I took the greatest issue with.
Now you're on about your upbringing and how you had scratch cooking and how scratch cooking helps one "avoid junk".
I agree that it's cheaper to buy ingredients for frequently cooked items and make those items yourself, but that wasn't your original point, so could you get back to that one?
Is it your position that it's about "caring" or is it simply a luxury you can afford to indulge because you have the money and can you now admit that it was rather ridiculous of you to post a "do any of you care" screed considering you have the money to afford to "care"?
26 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »nettiklive wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »nettiklive wrote: »Genuine question: do those of you who don't care about artificial additives in food also don't care about the source of the ingredients? As in, where your meat, produce etc comes from, whether it's organic, if seafood is imported and farm-raised etc? Again this is something that is very standard where I live, everyone tries to get the best ingredients they can afford and as local/seasonal as possible, I don't buy all organic but always organic meats and dairy at least for the kids (my husband eats a lot of chicken so I'll often get large packages of conventional chicken breasts for him otherwise we'd go broke lol); wild-caught fish and seafood as there are concerns about farm-raised, and we try to mostly avoid imported seafood when possible (which is most grocery store frozen seafood) since I read it is all produced in Asia with very little regulations and heavy metals and other contaminants have been found in large doses. I will get some shrimp every once in a while if I get a craving but I try to limit. In the summer, I try to buy produce local and from farmer's markets if possible.
Curious, do all of you consider all that 'woo' too?? No one cares? As I said, caring about this stuff is very normal around where I live so reading how no one cares on here seems strange. Do you all also use traditional cleaning supplies? Again, everyone I know has pretty much switched to either homemade solutions such as vinegar or natural-based cleaners to avoid the extra chemicals. Also all BS?
You're very privileged.
And apparently, you only care as far enough as your pocketbook takes you in some cases, so that speaks to your caring being less of a bone deep conviction and more of a social construct, given how you describe what sounds like an equally privileged social circle.
Interesting.
We are financially comfortable and I definitely don't skimp on food but we also don't stock our fridge with a ton of the most expensive foods. We don't eat large portions in general and we don't eat out often (more for health reasons but still), I do comparison shop and look for sales and good deals as a rule. Some foods we simply mostly avoid because we can't afford to buy them in large quantities (or could, but it wouldn't be a wise use of our budget) - like grass fed beef for instance, so we simply eat very little beef in general, or something like wild-caught local shrimp is very expensive so it's a once-a-year type treat, and other times I buy it rarely and stick to other proteins rather than buy a lot of frozen shrimp, we eat a lot of chicken and some wild salmon and the occasional lamb leg or pork tenderloin.
As I mentioned, I grew up in a family that went through two immigrations, and we came from a country where packaged junk food wasn't even a thing when we left, it was unaccessible for most of the population. Even after coming to Canada however, with very limited finances, my mom continued to feed us mostly healthy homemade meals made with inexpensive whole ingredients. In fact junk food and fast food was considered a rare treat because it was a waste of money on something essentially non-nutritious. I remember eating a lot of baked chicken drumsticks as a kid because boneless skinless breasts were too expensive; ground beef, potatoes, pasta, buckwheat (a cultural thing), etc., soups were a staple, always fresh veggies and seasonal fruit.
Money certainly helps you eat a better and more varied diet, but it's not an essential pre-requisite to avoiding junk. Many whole foods are cheaper and provide much better nutrition than packaged junk. Making food from scratch is cheaper than eating out. And certainly vinegar and baking soda is cheaper than store bought cleaners lol
You are all over the place.
Sourcing was the gist of your last post, and that was what I took the greatest issue with.
Now you're on about your upbringing and how you had scratch cooking and how scratch cooking helps one "avoid junk".
I agree that it's cheaper to buy ingredients for frequently cooked items and make those items yourself, but that wasn't your original point, so could you get back to that one?
Is it your position that it's about "caring" or is it simply a luxury you can afford to indulge because you have the money and can you now admit that it was rather ridiculous of you to post a "do any of you care" screed considering you have the money to afford to "care"?
My position has nothing to do with what myself or anyone else can afford, or even chooses to buy. It was more of a general debate question. I was curious about people's opinions about the quality of food, as an extension of the natural/ artificial debate. As I made clear, I believe different foods have their own ineherent values as better or worse for health, aside from the context of diet and moderation. There are obviously many different facets to this - ingredients in processed food is one, source/ quality of raw ingredients is another, there is obviously also nutritional value but that's fairly obvious so I'm not touching on that one.
My position is that certain food choices are healthier than others - and it has nothing to do with whether one can buy them or not. Grass fed meat from a local farm is a healthier choice than the cheapest beef at Walmart. Homemade cake made with real butter, eggs, and sugar is healthier than a twinkie - even though it's still cake and therefore not as healthy as, say, a bowl of spinach. I see it as a range of good to bad. Even if I couldn't afford organic chicken - and I mentioned I don't actually buy organic everything - i would still believe the organic chicken is a better choice. If I could only afford to eat instant ramen, it doesn't mean I would honestly beli and that it's a perfectly healthy nutritious food. 'privilige' has absolutely nothing to do with it, and I only talked about my background to counter the fact that my view comes from a position of privilege. I was, however, raised with the view of making healthy choices and avoiding additives etc,in spite of our not-so-privileged lifestyle, so I suppose that had a lot with shaping my opinions19 -
nettiklive wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »nettiklive wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »nettiklive wrote: »Genuine question: do those of you who don't care about artificial additives in food also don't care about the source of the ingredients? As in, where your meat, produce etc comes from, whether it's organic, if seafood is imported and farm-raised etc? Again this is something that is very standard where I live, everyone tries to get the best ingredients they can afford and as local/seasonal as possible, I don't buy all organic but always organic meats and dairy at least for the kids (my husband eats a lot of chicken so I'll often get large packages of conventional chicken breasts for him otherwise we'd go broke lol); wild-caught fish and seafood as there are concerns about farm-raised, and we try to mostly avoid imported seafood when possible (which is most grocery store frozen seafood) since I read it is all produced in Asia with very little regulations and heavy metals and other contaminants have been found in large doses. I will get some shrimp every once in a while if I get a craving but I try to limit. In the summer, I try to buy produce local and from farmer's markets if possible.
Curious, do all of you consider all that 'woo' too?? No one cares? As I said, caring about this stuff is very normal around where I live so reading how no one cares on here seems strange. Do you all also use traditional cleaning supplies? Again, everyone I know has pretty much switched to either homemade solutions such as vinegar or natural-based cleaners to avoid the extra chemicals. Also all BS?
You're very privileged.
And apparently, you only care as far enough as your pocketbook takes you in some cases, so that speaks to your caring being less of a bone deep conviction and more of a social construct, given how you describe what sounds like an equally privileged social circle.
Interesting.
We are financially comfortable and I definitely don't skimp on food but we also don't stock our fridge with a ton of the most expensive foods. We don't eat large portions in general and we don't eat out often (more for health reasons but still), I do comparison shop and look for sales and good deals as a rule. Some foods we simply mostly avoid because we can't afford to buy them in large quantities (or could, but it wouldn't be a wise use of our budget) - like grass fed beef for instance, so we simply eat very little beef in general, or something like wild-caught local shrimp is very expensive so it's a once-a-year type treat, and other times I buy it rarely and stick to other proteins rather than buy a lot of frozen shrimp, we eat a lot of chicken and some wild salmon and the occasional lamb leg or pork tenderloin.
As I mentioned, I grew up in a family that went through two immigrations, and we came from a country where packaged junk food wasn't even a thing when we left, it was unaccessible for most of the population. Even after coming to Canada however, with very limited finances, my mom continued to feed us mostly healthy homemade meals made with inexpensive whole ingredients. In fact junk food and fast food was considered a rare treat because it was a waste of money on something essentially non-nutritious. I remember eating a lot of baked chicken drumsticks as a kid because boneless skinless breasts were too expensive; ground beef, potatoes, pasta, buckwheat (a cultural thing), etc., soups were a staple, always fresh veggies and seasonal fruit.
Money certainly helps you eat a better and more varied diet, but it's not an essential pre-requisite to avoiding junk. Many whole foods are cheaper and provide much better nutrition than packaged junk. Making food from scratch is cheaper than eating out. And certainly vinegar and baking soda is cheaper than store bought cleaners lol
You are all over the place.
Sourcing was the gist of your last post, and that was what I took the greatest issue with.
Now you're on about your upbringing and how you had scratch cooking and how scratch cooking helps one "avoid junk".
I agree that it's cheaper to buy ingredients for frequently cooked items and make those items yourself, but that wasn't your original point, so could you get back to that one?
Is it your position that it's about "caring" or is it simply a luxury you can afford to indulge because you have the money and can you now admit that it was rather ridiculous of you to post a "do any of you care" screed considering you have the money to afford to "care"?
My position has nothing to do with what myself or anyone else can afford, or even chooses to buy. It was more of a general debate question. I was curious about people's opinions about the quality of food, as an extension of the natural/ artificial debate. As I made clear, I believe different foods have their own ineherent values as better or worse for health, aside from the context of diet and moderation. There are obviously many different facets to this - ingredients in processed food is one, source/ quality of raw ingredients is another, there is obviously also nutritional value but that's fairly obvious so I'm not touching on that one.
My position is that certain food choices are healthier than others - and it has nothing to do with whether one can buy them or not. Grass fed meat from a local farm is a healthier choice than the cheapest beef at Walmart. Homemade cake made with real butter, eggs, and sugar is healthier than a twinkie - even though it's still cake and therefore not as healthy as, say, a bowl of spinach. I see it as a range of good to bad. Even if I couldn't afford organic chicken - and I mentioned I don't actually buy organic everything - i would still believe the organic chicken is a better choice. If I could only afford to eat instant ramen, it doesn't mean I would honestly beli and that it's a perfectly healthy nutritious food. 'privilige' has absolutely nothing to do with it, and I only talked about my background to counter the fact that my view comes from a position of privilege. I was, however, raised with the view of making healthy choices and avoiding additives etc,in spite of our not-so-privileged lifestyle, so I suppose that had a lot with shaping my opinions
The problem is that your position examines individual foods in isolation rather than considering their context and dosage within the overall diet. Which is what truly matters.
The other problem seems to be that your 'position' is situational and based around your own personal preferences and prejudices (and social cachet) rather than fact. A fancy, expensive pastry is perfectly fine; a lowly, basic, grocery store pastry is not. Et cetera.21 -
nettiklive wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »nettiklive wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »nettiklive wrote: »Genuine question: do those of you who don't care about artificial additives in food also don't care about the source of the ingredients? As in, where your meat, produce etc comes from, whether it's organic, if seafood is imported and farm-raised etc? Again this is something that is very standard where I live, everyone tries to get the best ingredients they can afford and as local/seasonal as possible, I don't buy all organic but always organic meats and dairy at least for the kids (my husband eats a lot of chicken so I'll often get large packages of conventional chicken breasts for him otherwise we'd go broke lol); wild-caught fish and seafood as there are concerns about farm-raised, and we try to mostly avoid imported seafood when possible (which is most grocery store frozen seafood) since I read it is all produced in Asia with very little regulations and heavy metals and other contaminants have been found in large doses. I will get some shrimp every once in a while if I get a craving but I try to limit. In the summer, I try to buy produce local and from farmer's markets if possible.
Curious, do all of you consider all that 'woo' too?? No one cares? As I said, caring about this stuff is very normal around where I live so reading how no one cares on here seems strange. Do you all also use traditional cleaning supplies? Again, everyone I know has pretty much switched to either homemade solutions such as vinegar or natural-based cleaners to avoid the extra chemicals. Also all BS?
You're very privileged.
And apparently, you only care as far enough as your pocketbook takes you in some cases, so that speaks to your caring being less of a bone deep conviction and more of a social construct, given how you describe what sounds like an equally privileged social circle.
Interesting.
We are financially comfortable and I definitely don't skimp on food but we also don't stock our fridge with a ton of the most expensive foods. We don't eat large portions in general and we don't eat out often (more for health reasons but still), I do comparison shop and look for sales and good deals as a rule. Some foods we simply mostly avoid because we can't afford to buy them in large quantities (or could, but it wouldn't be a wise use of our budget) - like grass fed beef for instance, so we simply eat very little beef in general, or something like wild-caught local shrimp is very expensive so it's a once-a-year type treat, and other times I buy it rarely and stick to other proteins rather than buy a lot of frozen shrimp, we eat a lot of chicken and some wild salmon and the occasional lamb leg or pork tenderloin.
As I mentioned, I grew up in a family that went through two immigrations, and we came from a country where packaged junk food wasn't even a thing when we left, it was unaccessible for most of the population. Even after coming to Canada however, with very limited finances, my mom continued to feed us mostly healthy homemade meals made with inexpensive whole ingredients. In fact junk food and fast food was considered a rare treat because it was a waste of money on something essentially non-nutritious. I remember eating a lot of baked chicken drumsticks as a kid because boneless skinless breasts were too expensive; ground beef, potatoes, pasta, buckwheat (a cultural thing), etc., soups were a staple, always fresh veggies and seasonal fruit.
Money certainly helps you eat a better and more varied diet, but it's not an essential pre-requisite to avoiding junk. Many whole foods are cheaper and provide much better nutrition than packaged junk. Making food from scratch is cheaper than eating out. And certainly vinegar and baking soda is cheaper than store bought cleaners lol
You are all over the place.
Sourcing was the gist of your last post, and that was what I took the greatest issue with.
Now you're on about your upbringing and how you had scratch cooking and how scratch cooking helps one "avoid junk".
I agree that it's cheaper to buy ingredients for frequently cooked items and make those items yourself, but that wasn't your original point, so could you get back to that one?
Is it your position that it's about "caring" or is it simply a luxury you can afford to indulge because you have the money and can you now admit that it was rather ridiculous of you to post a "do any of you care" screed considering you have the money to afford to "care"?
My position has nothing to do with what myself or anyone else can afford, or even chooses to buy. It was more of a general debate question. I was curious about people's opinions about the quality of food, as an extension of the natural/ artificial debate. As I made clear, I believe different foods have their own ineherent values as better or worse for health, aside from the context of diet and moderation. There are obviously many different facets to this - ingredients in processed food is one, source/ quality of raw ingredients is another, there is obviously also nutritional value but that's fairly obvious so I'm not touching on that one.
My position is that certain food choices are healthier than others - and it has nothing to do with whether one can buy them or not. Grass fed meat from a local farm is a healthier choice than the cheapest beef at Walmart. Homemade cake made with real butter, eggs, and sugar is healthier than a twinkie - even though it's still cake and therefore not as healthy as, say, a bowl of spinach. I see it as a range of good to bad. Even if I couldn't afford organic chicken - and I mentioned I don't actually buy organic everything - i would still believe the organic chicken is a better choice. If I could only afford to eat instant ramen, it doesn't mean I would honestly beli and that it's a perfectly healthy nutritious food. 'privilige' has absolutely nothing to do with it, and I only talked about my background to counter the fact that my view comes from a position of privilege. I was, however, raised with the view of making healthy choices and avoiding additives etc,in spite of our not-so-privileged lifestyle, so I suppose that had a lot with shaping my opinions
The problem is that a lot of your views on what constitutes healthier choices are subjective, so when you ask us if we care, you're basing that system of caring on some subjective hierarchy.
Example: There is no evidence that organic anything is "healthier" than conventional.
You simply pay more for it and, apparently, in your social circle, gain some cachet for buying that way.
That's privilege, and that is why I stated as much.17 -
I, at one time , lived 70 miles from the nearest grocery store, so buying food was difficult (getting things under ice and all) and because we needed it to last until the next two week run into town. Canned goods were how we managed the two week span. Fresh meat (usually horse or goat) and freshvvegetables for the first week, the second week it was all canned like spam, sardines and green beans. The rest of the week was filled out with our backyard chickens.nettiklive wrote: »nettiklive wrote: »nettiklive wrote: »Genuine question: do those of you who don't care about artificial additives in food also don't care about the source of the ingredients? As in, where your meat, produce etc comes from, whether it's organic, if seafood is imported and farm-raised etc? Again this is something that is very standard where I live, everyone tries to get the best ingredients they can afford and as local/seasonal as possible, I don't buy all organic but always organic meats and dairy at least for the kids (my husband eats a lot of chicken so I'll often get large packages of conventional chicken breasts for him otherwise we'd go broke lol); wild-caught fish and seafood as there are concerns about farm-raised, and we try to mostly avoid imported seafood when possible (which is most grocery store frozen seafood) since I read it is all produced in Asia with very little regulations and heavy metals and other contaminants have been found in large doses. I will get some shrimp every once in a while if I get a craving but I try to limit. In the summer, I try to buy produce local and from farmer's markets if possible.
Curious, do all of you consider all that 'woo' too?? No one cares? As I said, caring about this stuff is very normal around where I live so reading how no one cares on here seems strange. Do you all also use traditional cleaning supplies? Again, everyone I know has pretty much switched to either homemade solutions such as vinegar or natural-based cleaners to avoid the extra chemicals. Also all BS?
I don't know where you live. Where I live (center of the palm in Michigan), the big grocery chains are full of people who're buying conventional produce from all over the world, and lots of mass-market cleaning supplies.
Are there people who think as you do? Sure. Could I surround myself with mainly those people? Probably.
I enjoy having a diversity of friends from varying economic groups, ethnic backgrounds, political outlooks, and more. Therefore, I tend to refrain from cross-examining about their food or cleaning product choices, unless those directly come up in conversation. If the subject comes up, I state my personal practices and reasoning, but avoid suggesting theirs are wrong. Perhaps this is not the way to change the world, but in my world it's a way to respect people and not assume my way is the best or only way. I'm certainly not going to argue a point without decent science on my side.
So, I have no idea what "everyone" around me does, because it's not a frequent or interesting conversation topic.
I've mentioned my food preferences in a previous post, and explained my reasoning. I won't repeat that here. I tend to clean with mild things (water, baking soda, salt, vinegar) most of the time, unless and until that doesn't work for some reason, then I sometimes use mass-market cleaning products.
As a vegetarian, I could go all "How could you possibly eat commercially-produced meat, when doing so requires bucketloads more protein than you get as output - do you care?" or "How can you eat fish, what with the over-fishing of our oceans and the destruction of habitat caused by commercial fisheries - is that just BS?" but I don't. And I won't, because I don't feel that way about it.
Here's my view: As an economically comfortable first-world modern human, I'm (a) very fortunate personally, and (b) inherently and unavoidably a small bundle of global environmental and economic harm. I can't fix that harm thing. I think good people make some choices that reduce the harms they create, and that - since it can't be completely avoided - it makes sense for people to choose the forms of harm reduction that are most achievable within their lifestyle and values.
Speaking only for myself, I don't find black and white thinking about it to be helpful to me; I bear too much first-world responsibility to be judgemental about others' choices (and it doesn't help with my goal of surrounding myself with diverse people); worrying routinely about small amounts of weird stuff in my food hurts my happiness more than it helps my health; and I believe that statements of the form "everyone I know does X" tend to be false (including the observation that people who don't do X will keep their mouths shut when they perceive themselves to be out of step with social norms in groups they otherwise want to socialize with).
Others are welcome to feel differently.
Just to note, I don't 'cross-examine' anyone about their habits either, it just so happens that as mostly moms of young kids, these topics come up in chit chat often.
The way others eat doesn't concern me in the least. It was just so normal to me to see people avoid junk food additives, try to make good choices with ingredients etc, that I just assumed it was 'normal' and typical for people active on a health and nutrition forum, of all places, and was very surprised to be proven wrong and be blasted for stating the opinion that some foods are inherently better choices than others. Oh well. I live in the PNW if that tells you anything; I've lived up and down the coast from Canada to California and have encountered the same philosophy. I can see how it may be different in other parts of the country.
And no, not all people in the PNW think this way.
I buy most of our fish off the boat twice a year to stock our freezer because we prefer the taste and we're lucky enough to be able to do so. We have a farm share from mid-Spring until late-Fall because we like the vegetables and enjoy them. I also go to the farmer's market regularly during the summer.
We also buy plenty of boxed meals and sides, TV dinners, etc., etc. and I never give it a second thought. I rarely buy organic unless it's actually cheaper.
I use a lot of baking soda for cleaning because it's cheap and works well. I also use regular commercial products.
I know very few people who go to the extremes you appear to, most people try to eat a well-rounded diet of food they enjoy and get some exercise.
Shrug. I don't know why everyone seems to think eating the way we do requires some sort of militant policing or why it's 'extreme'... It really doesn't feel that way to me. Like I said, it takes no effort to eat this way especially because thankfully it is much easier nowadays. I also don't really 'give it a second thought' - it is just natural to me to shop primarily the whole foods aisles in stores and to pass by boxed meals, chips, pre-packaged sweets and so on. They are not just in our routine. Our extended families eat this way too, as do our kids at friends' houses etc. So it's really a non-issue.
With an elitist attitude you will go hungry, guaranteed.
15 -
nettiklive wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »nettiklive wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »nettiklive wrote: »Genuine question: do those of you who don't care about artificial additives in food also don't care about the source of the ingredients? As in, where your meat, produce etc comes from, whether it's organic, if seafood is imported and farm-raised etc? Again this is something that is very standard where I live, everyone tries to get the best ingredients they can afford and as local/seasonal as possible, I don't buy all organic but always organic meats and dairy at least for the kids (my husband eats a lot of chicken so I'll often get large packages of conventional chicken breasts for him otherwise we'd go broke lol); wild-caught fish and seafood as there are concerns about farm-raised, and we try to mostly avoid imported seafood when possible (which is most grocery store frozen seafood) since I read it is all produced in Asia with very little regulations and heavy metals and other contaminants have been found in large doses. I will get some shrimp every once in a while if I get a craving but I try to limit. In the summer, I try to buy produce local and from farmer's markets if possible.
Curious, do all of you consider all that 'woo' too?? No one cares? As I said, caring about this stuff is very normal around where I live so reading how no one cares on here seems strange. Do you all also use traditional cleaning supplies? Again, everyone I know has pretty much switched to either homemade solutions such as vinegar or natural-based cleaners to avoid the extra chemicals. Also all BS?
You're very privileged.
And apparently, you only care as far enough as your pocketbook takes you in some cases, so that speaks to your caring being less of a bone deep conviction and more of a social construct, given how you describe what sounds like an equally privileged social circle.
Interesting.
We are financially comfortable and I definitely don't skimp on food but we also don't stock our fridge with a ton of the most expensive foods. We don't eat large portions in general and we don't eat out often (more for health reasons but still), I do comparison shop and look for sales and good deals as a rule. Some foods we simply mostly avoid because we can't afford to buy them in large quantities (or could, but it wouldn't be a wise use of our budget) - like grass fed beef for instance, so we simply eat very little beef in general, or something like wild-caught local shrimp is very expensive so it's a once-a-year type treat, and other times I buy it rarely and stick to other proteins rather than buy a lot of frozen shrimp, we eat a lot of chicken and some wild salmon and the occasional lamb leg or pork tenderloin.
As I mentioned, I grew up in a family that went through two immigrations, and we came from a country where packaged junk food wasn't even a thing when we left, it was unaccessible for most of the population. Even after coming to Canada however, with very limited finances, my mom continued to feed us mostly healthy homemade meals made with inexpensive whole ingredients. In fact junk food and fast food was considered a rare treat because it was a waste of money on something essentially non-nutritious. I remember eating a lot of baked chicken drumsticks as a kid because boneless skinless breasts were too expensive; ground beef, potatoes, pasta, buckwheat (a cultural thing), etc., soups were a staple, always fresh veggies and seasonal fruit.
Money certainly helps you eat a better and more varied diet, but it's not an essential pre-requisite to avoiding junk. Many whole foods are cheaper and provide much better nutrition than packaged junk. Making food from scratch is cheaper than eating out. And certainly vinegar and baking soda is cheaper than store bought cleaners lol
You are all over the place.
Sourcing was the gist of your last post, and that was what I took the greatest issue with.
Now you're on about your upbringing and how you had scratch cooking and how scratch cooking helps one "avoid junk".
I agree that it's cheaper to buy ingredients for frequently cooked items and make those items yourself, but that wasn't your original point, so could you get back to that one?
Is it your position that it's about "caring" or is it simply a luxury you can afford to indulge because you have the money and can you now admit that it was rather ridiculous of you to post a "do any of you care" screed considering you have the money to afford to "care"?
My position has nothing to do with what myself or anyone else can afford, or even chooses to buy. It was more of a general debate question. I was curious about people's opinions about the quality of food, as an extension of the natural/ artificial debate. As I made clear, I believe different foods have their own ineherent values as better or worse for health, aside from the context of diet and moderation. There are obviously many different facets to this - ingredients in processed food is one, source/ quality of raw ingredients is another, there is obviously also nutritional value but that's fairly obvious so I'm not touching on that one.
My position is that certain food choices are healthier than others - and it has nothing to do with whether one can buy them or not. Grass fed meat from a local farm is a healthier choice than the cheapest beef at Walmart. Homemade cake made with real butter, eggs, and sugar is healthier than a twinkie - even though it's still cake and therefore not as healthy as, say, a bowl of spinach. I see it as a range of good to bad. Even if I couldn't afford organic chicken - and I mentioned I don't actually buy organic everything - i would still believe the organic chicken is a better choice. If I could only afford to eat instant ramen, it doesn't mean I would honestly beli and that it's a perfectly healthy nutritious food. 'privilige' has absolutely nothing to do with it, and I only talked about my background to counter the fact that my view comes from a position of privilege. I was, however, raised with the view of making healthy choices and avoiding additives etc,in spite of our not-so-privileged lifestyle, so I suppose that had a lot with shaping my opinions
The problem is that your position examines individual foods in isolation rather than considering their context and dosage within the overall diet. Which is what truly matters.
The other problem seems to be that your 'position' is situational and based around your own personal preferences and prejudices (and social cachet) rather than fact. A fancy, expensive pastry is perfectly fine; a lowly, basic, grocery store pastry is not. Et cetera.
The point is not how much it costs and whether it's 'fancy' but what goes into it. Good bakeries use only the same ingredients I would use at home, and presumingly good quality ingredients - real butter, real eggs, real vanilla and flavoring agents etc. Next best thing to making it yourself. A good croissant, for instance, only has about four-five ingredients. There is no good reason why a Safeway croissant has about twenty ingredients listed on the package. Even the soup from their hot soup bar, made to look scratch-made, contains artificial flavorings and color among preservatives and other things. Why in the world do you need to add artificial flavor to soup??
There may not be studies at this time that this stuff is bad for you, but in my opinion any unnecessary chemicals (yes, I know 'everything' is 'chemicals') in your food that don't occur in nature and don't need to be there are just crap that, in the best case, won't do anything, and in the worst case will end up hurting your health. It's not going to benefit your health in any way so there's absolutely no reason to consume it when alternatives are available. JMO.25
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