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Keto diet = good or bad
Replies
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I post all kinds of things about the idiosyncratic ways I choose to eat (I mean, jeepers, I drink ACV (though not for weight loss
), I've been vegetarian for decades (not weight loss magic or a religion), adore probiotic fermented veggies, don't like Oreos or Poptarts at all, and eat pounds of veggies daily (but don't evangelize for WFPB or "clean", terms I hate)). I get like zero pushback, even on the really statistically bizarre-o-ville stuff, because while it's good for me, I know I'm talking about me, not the whole flippin' world, and try to communicate accordingly.
Exactly this. And I have had the same experience.1 -
Yes. I should work on that. I am a technical person. We tend to say what we want in as few words as possible. My Ph.D. co-worker will use 1000 words when he could have just said yes. I'll go to his office and ask if that was a yes. He'll sigh and nod.
Also, I was a vegetarian for over a year. One thick bacon cheeseburger and I went back to meat eating. I don't eat much meat now, which is contrary to what people think keto is. There are many keto vegetarians. 3 -
Sorry if I offended the cow fart people. If you want to talk about it, I was only joking. But I feel like the real issue is chicken farting. Do you know how many chickens there are in the world?8
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Well, you didn't answer my challenge before. And you apparently didn't read any of the links I provided. Are you up for it now?
Instead of looking at a keto website, we can look at meta analyses on long term. Short term (less than 6 months) low carb produces faster weight loss but is equal compared to low fat.
And this doesn't even consider the whole area in the middle.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3530364/7 -
19 billion chickens
A 2011 report suggested there were 19 billion chickens on Earth, a full 12 billion more chickens than humans.
https://www.independent.ie/world-news/and-finally/this-thread-on-the-earths-chicken-population-is-a-rollercoaster-36213745.html
Actually most sites that I googled said that chickens don't fart. IDK3 -
Are chickens a problem?0
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Well, you didn't answer my challenge before. And you apparently didn't read any of the links I provided. Are you up for it now?
Instead of looking at a keto website, we can look at meta analyses on long term. Short term (less than 6 months) low carb produces faster weight loss but is equal compared to low fat.
And this doesn't even consider the whole area in the middle.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3530364/
Well, you can discount the links because you think they are biased. I'll go cut some articles for you so you don't have to look at the keto site before you get the science stuff. But the NIH is a pretty respectable outfit. And the title of the article is
Long-term effects of a ketogenic diet in obese patients19 billion chickens
A 2011 report suggested there were 19 billion chickens on Earth, a full 12 billion more chickens than humans.
https://www.independent.ie/world-news/and-finally/this-thread-on-the-earths-chicken-population-is-a-rollercoaster-36213745.html
Actually most sites that I googled said that chickens don't fart. IDK
Thank you. Now I can rest easy knowing that.0 -
Yes. I should work on that. I am a technical person. We tend to say what we want in as few words as possible. My Ph.D. co-worker will use 1000 words when he could have just said yes. I'll go to his office and ask if that was a yes. He'll sigh and nod. Also, I was a vegetarian for over a year. One thick bacon cheeseburger and I went back to meat eating. I don't eat much meat now, which is contrary to what people think keto is. There are many keto vegetarians.
My career was 30 years in IT, which seems a little technical. It doesn't make me a woman of few words (though I'm sure many here wish I were). It made me very analytic, and - through needing to communicate with many types of people (technical and not, well-adjusted to human communication and not, etc.) - it made me rather careful about what I say . . . especially when there is a print record (or one in electrons on the web).
I know there are keto vegetarians. That would be challenging, but doable, for me, if that were all there were to it -- the vegetarianism. What wouldn't work for me, is getting the quantity and diversity of veggies and fruit I enjoy on regular low carb, let alone keto. And I'm not saying keto people don't eat enough vegetables; I know they do: It's that for me, a really enjoyable day is 15+ servings (80g = 1 serving) of quite a diverse range of them. Achieving that on keto carb levels would be very difficult, and - for me only - without compensatory benefits. Speaking for myself only, I see nothing that keto offers me that I don't get from eating the way I do now, and how I eat now pleases me.
It's a big world, with lots of kinds of people in it. I enjoy that. :drinker:8 -
It depends. There are plenty of IT people that think they are technical but they are not.9
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It's actually cow burps that were thought to be a large problem but it's now known that they produce just a small fraction of the methane they were suspected of making, about 3-4% vs 18-20% of methane.
There are almost no long term keto diet trials out there that I know of. This is one, only 24 weeks:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2716748/
The other is Virta, but they are looking more at treating diabetes rather than focusing on weight loss. One group gets the standard of care, with advice to eat less and move more. The other group gets counselling on a low carb diet, presumedly more than WW or Jenny Craig would provide, but I don't really know.
https://www.virtahealth.com/research
"Obesity
Excess weight represents risk for both type 2 diabetes and cardiovascular disease. Virta patients sustained the loss of 12% of their body weight over the year. The prevalence of class III obesity among participants was reduced from 46% to 20%."
In the above graph, you can't see the standard of care line because there was no weight loss.
Virta is done 2 years now. Last I heard is that about 74% stuck with it.
"Weight Loss
At baseline, body weight of the intervention group averaged at 115 kg (254 pounds). On average after one year, participants in the intervention group lowered body weight to 100.3 kg (221 pounds). At two years, body weight of participants in the intervention group increased slightly to 102.6 kg (226 pounds).
By comparison, body weight of the usual care control group was 111 kg (244 pounds) at baseline, 112 kg (247 pounds) at one-year and stable at two years."
From here:
https://www.lchf-rd.com/2018/12/16/long-term-benefits-of-a-ketogenic-diet-2-year-update/
I have no idea what the norm is for weight loss maintenance at 2 years. Technically speaking, those in the Virta trials still have weight to lose, but it's great that they kept off 10% for 2 years.
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You can't use CNN. It's fake news. I already said that calorie counting works. I still contend that keto is way better from personal experience. Still, if you did the sugar & broccoli experiment you would weight much less and wouldn't be diabetic if you ate veggies and fat instead of sugar. That is an extreme example to prove a valid point. The broccoli and butter is Keto, BTW.
I mean, there was the professor that ate nothing but oreos and twinkies and other sugary processed foods, but ate at a deficit and lost 27 pounds, then all his health markers improved, that's kind of what you're talking about. Being at a healthy weight is BY FAR the most important thing in terms of dietary health that you can do. Yes you need to be consuming enough micronutrients and fiber, and in general getting as much of your intake as you can from whole, minimally processed foods, but make no mistake, getting to and staying at a healthy weight is the most important thing.11 -
You can't use CNN. It's fake news. I already said that calorie counting works. I still contend that keto is way better from personal experience. Still, if you did the sugar & broccoli experiment you would weight much less and wouldn't be diabetic if you ate veggies and fat instead of sugar. That is an extreme example to prove a valid point. The broccoli and butter is Keto, BTW.
I mean, there was the professor that ate nothing but oreos and twinkies and other sugary processed foods, but ate at a deficit and lost 27 pounds, then all his health markers improved, that's kind of what you're talking about. Being at a healthy weight is BY FAR the most important thing in terms of dietary health that you can do. Yes you need to be consuming enough micronutrients and fiber, and in general getting as much of your intake as you can from whole, minimally processed foods, but make no mistake, getting to and staying at a healthy weight is the most important thing.
You are correct of course. These kinds of monodiet arguments are a straw man. As others have said, no one eats that way. But, in my view, it conflates weight loss with nutrition. Weight loss is calories, however you get there. Nutrition is getting a balance of nutrients.
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Here is a long list of keto studies. Lemon disputed the validity because it was from a keto site. Note that the site it's on has nothing to do with the places that published the studies.
https://ketovale.com/low-carb-keto-diet-studies-list/
Also, the NIH thinks keto is cool too.
https://ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2716748/
I actually looked at some of those links from ketovale - I just picked a few random ones. I saw:
A study that compared keto to a low fat diet & found both to be effective
A study that says keto is probably not dangerous for most people
A study that measured satiety on keto
A study about whether resistance training should be done on keto to prevent muscle loss
I didn't see anything that said "keto is the best way" (hint: because it isn't. It's great for some people, not for others - just the same as any other way of eating out there.)
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snickerscharlie wrote: »And I also support any method anyone chooses to use that works for them.
But what needs to be understood here is that the reason *any* diet or way of eating may help someone lose weight is only if it also puts them in the necessary caloric deficit to facilitate that.
I know this graphic has been used a lot, but it bears repeating:
I hate this. People keep posting it. There is more to weight loss than calories. People who believe this say things like oh your not eating enough calories. Do you need to exercise more? Are you getting enough fiber?
If you think this is true, eat 1000 calories of sugar a day for a month. Then a 1000 calories of broccoli and butter for a day for a month and go get your blood work done. Then report back.
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Well, you didn't answer my challenge before. And you apparently didn't read any of the links I provided. Are you up for it now?
Instead of looking at a keto website, we can look at meta analyses on long term. Short term (less than 6 months) low carb produces faster weight loss but is equal compared to low fat.
And this doesn't even consider the whole area in the middle.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3530364/
@psuLemon that is a very positive to Low Carb research article yet as interesting I find meta-analysis on different WOE's in the end our own n=1 results is the tail that wags the dog.
My 4.5 year n=1 keto WOE's has proven it is a good diet for me in all aspects of my health recovery.7 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »Well, you didn't answer my challenge before. And you apparently didn't read any of the links I provided. Are you up for it now?
Instead of looking at a keto website, we can look at meta analyses on long term. Short term (less than 6 months) low carb produces faster weight loss but is equal compared to low fat.
And this doesn't even consider the whole area in the middle.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3530364/
@psuLemon that is a very positive to Low Carb research article yet as interesting I find meta-analysis on different WOE's in the end our own n=1 results is the tail that wags the dog.
My 4.5 year n=1 keto WOE's has proven it is a good diet for me in all aspects of my health recovery.
It demonstrates that there is very little difference between diets, especially long term. Both diets demonstrated similar improvements to metabolic health. Low carb had a slight improvement in increases to HDL and triglycerides but had less improvement compared to low fat with LDL.
And the increase in weight loss is driven by less carbs, which causes your body to release water. So its not additional fat loss. I do think there is some benefit for the obese and those less active to restrict carbs. But when you are move active, it seems like carbs are more beneficial.
One thing it did note was those who were insulin sensitive seemed to do better with low fat. This is probably why i do much better with low fat. I am fairly insulin sensitive.13 -
You can lose weight on accurate Keto. I have done it. Had to stop Keto because my gallbladder could not tolerate the high fat levels. Low carb is very beneficial to me but, I have to do low fat as well. Being overweight shortens your life so, bad or good you are weighing risk versus benefit. I am finding after doing many many diet methods that calories matter and empty carbs are not conducive to weight loss.3
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carolhiner wrote: »You can lose weight on accurate Keto. I have done it. Had to stop Keto because my gallbladder could not tolerate the high fat levels. Low carb is very beneficial to me but, I have to do low fat as well. Being overweight shortens your life so, bad or good you are weighing risk versus benefit. I am finding after doing many many diet methods that calories matter and empty carbs are not conducive to weight loss.
Excuse me, but what are "empty" carbs?1 -
Sugar, white flour, foods that don’t have positive nutritional value. Veggies have carbs but, vitamins are positive.16
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While sugar is pretty much only carbs (but has benefit as a flavor enhancer for more nutrient-dense foods), a cup of white flour gives 32% of your iron rda. It's also got some potassium. And if it's enriched, then add in B-vitamins.13
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estherdragonbat wrote: »While sugar is pretty much only carbs (but has benefit as a flavor enhancer for more nutrient-dense foods), a cup of white flour gives 32% of your iron rda. It's also got some potassium. And if it's enriched, then add in B-vitamins.
The enrichment is what adds the iron too, though I'm not sure how bioavailable it is.3 -
estherdragonbat wrote: »While sugar is pretty much only carbs (but has benefit as a flavor enhancer for more nutrient-dense foods), a cup of white flour gives 32% of your iron rda. It's also got some potassium. And if it's enriched, then add in B-vitamins.
The enrichment is what adds the iron too, though I'm not sure how bioavailable it is.
Even unenriched bread isn't devoid of nutrients. Yesterday I got 30-55% of my B1-B3, selenium, and folate from unenriched white pita bread in under 300 calories, plus it was physically and mentally satisfying. That's far from empty calories.15 -
I confess I never eat bread for nutrients. I eat it because I love the stuff.
Anecdote >>>Growing up rather poor, sometimes we had some bread in the house and a slice would go in a bowl with a little milk... Really odd how I never lost my taste for that.
I didn't gain weight either 😂3 -
I confess I never eat bread for nutrients. I eat it because I love the stuff.
Anecdote >>>Growing up rather poor, sometimes we had some bread in the house and a slice would go in a bowl with a little milk... Really odd how I never lost my taste for that.
I didn't gain weight either 😂
We used to do the same with extra gravy - if we didn't have anything else to put the gravy on, we would put it on bread or toast.3 -
I confess I never eat bread for nutrients. I eat it because I love the stuff.
Anecdote >>>Growing up rather poor, sometimes we had some bread in the house and a slice would go in a bowl with a little milk... Really odd how I never lost my taste for that.
I didn't gain weight either 😂
We used to do the same with extra gravy - if we didn't have anything else to put the gravy on, we would put it on bread or toast.
SoS 😋 that's another favorite0 -
snickerscharlie wrote: »And I also support any method anyone chooses to use that works for them.
But what needs to be understood here is that the reason *any* diet or way of eating may help someone lose weight is only if it also puts them in the necessary caloric deficit to facilitate that.
I know this graphic has been used a lot, but it bears repeating:
I hate this. People keep posting it. There is more to weight loss than calories. People who believe this say things like oh your not eating enough calories. Do you need to exercise more? Are you getting enough fiber?
If you think this is true, eat 1000 calories of sugar a day for a month. Then a 1000 calories of broccoli and butter for a day for a month and go get your blood work done. Then report back.
In both examples you would be malnourished...12 -
I don't do Keto. I eat grains, fiber and a moderate amount of sugar. I don't consider myself overly sensitive.
@fatblatta I celebrate the fact that you have found a way to eat that helps you down the path to your goals. I applaud you in having the courage to follow that path. I respect your experiences that have made you the person that you are today.
While my experiences might be different...along with the different path that I have chosen to follow...I hope that we both continue to have the courage to see it through.
^^^ For the win!2 -
The CICO people cannot be moved. Keto people who stick with it and have success also cannot be moved. I have done both and been very successful on both. Both led to significant weight loss. Both improved my blood panels significantly- yes even with eating a ton of fat on keto my blood work improved a lot. Both work. I just find Keto much easier for me because I feel full. I am not a gym rat who spends hours and hours a week in the gym and then brags how they eat pizza and ice cream. Yeah it’s true but you paid a price for it. It doesn’t come free. Enough with the back and forth. But everyone has to be right I guess.19
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The CICO people cannot be moved. Keto people who stick with it and have success also cannot be moved. I have done both and been very successful on both. Both led to significant weight loss. Both improved my blood panels significantly- yes even with eating a ton of fat on keto my blood work improved a lot. Both work. I just find Keto much easier for me because I feel full. I am not a gym rat who spends hours and hours a week in the gym and then brags how they eat pizza and ice cream. Yeah it’s true but you paid a price for it. It doesn’t come free. Enough with the back and forth. But everyone has to be right I guess.
The only thing "the CICO people" are saying is that every single way of eating on the planet still adheres to the energy balance equation that is CICO.
Eat too many calories of anything on a consistent basis - enough to keep you in a caloric excess over time - and you will gain weight. Whether you keep track of the amount of calories you're consuming or not. Whether those calories are "clean," fat-ridden, vegetarian, organic, whole, spread out over the day or eaten in a one-hour period.
There's no magic in any particular way of eating. The sole benefit to any of it is only if it helps the person remain in the caloric deficit needed to realize weight loss.
Edited to add: To the bolded:
It's clear that you seem to think that CICO is a diet, since you've compared it to keto and your success on both. You can't actually 'do' CICO. Every human body on the planet adheres to the principle of CICO, whether they understand that or not. 16 -
The CICO people cannot be moved. Keto people who stick with it and have success also cannot be moved. I have done both and been very successful on both. Both led to significant weight loss. Both improved my blood panels significantly- yes even with eating a ton of fat on keto my blood work improved a lot. Both work. I just find Keto much easier for me because I feel full. I am not a gym rat who spends hours and hours a week in the gym and then brags how they eat pizza and ice cream. Yeah it’s true but you paid a price for it. It doesn’t come free. Enough with the back and forth. But everyone has to be right I guess.
Maybe you didn't realize that you're in the Debate section of the forums?17
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