Welcome to Debate Club! Please be aware that this is a space for respectful debate, and that your ideas will be challenged here. Please remember to critique the argument, not the author.
Keto diet = good or bad
Replies
-
Science has also found that a diet high in saturated fat is directly related to higher incidence of colon cancer, and that high consumption of red meat plays a large role. As someone with a high risk based on family history I would never in my life consider keto. It is not the right path for everyone.9
-
I’m on the fence about it. I think it sounds great for people with epilepsy and similar issues.
Whether or not it helps you to lose weight depends on whether or not you’re in a calorie deficit.
Personally, I’m not interested in eating that way, so there’s no point. I’m in an endometriosis group, and some women in there swear by it in terms of how they feel it helps their symptoms, so it’s certainly something I follow with interest. But I haven’t heard any solid reasons to sway me to try it.1 -
Once again, Keto = Good or Bad? The answer is not either or, the answer is, it depends...5
-
Science has also found that a diet high in saturated fat is directly related to higher incidence of colon cancer, and that high consumption of red meat plays a large role. As someone with a high risk based on family history I would never in my life consider keto. It is not the right path for everyone.
I'm afraid that this is not correct.
Processed meats like bacon are found to to correlate with a 20% increased risk of colon cancer, which means that the risk rises from 5 to 6%.
A diet high is saturated fat has NOT been found to cause colon cancer, nor does it correlate to increased risk. The meat preservatives appear to be the problem, and not the meat. Saying that saturated fat is the problem is incorrect, but it is mainly the fault of poor journalism or those with an anti meat agenda.
But, if you do have evidence that saturated fat causes cancer, please share it. As someone who eats a lot if red meat, I would be curious to read it8 -
Science has also found that a diet high in saturated fat is directly related to higher incidence of colon cancer, and that high consumption of red meat plays a large role. As someone with a high risk based on family history I would never in my life consider keto. It is not the right path for everyone.
Most of these so called studies are with high-fat-induced obesity models.
Here's a good oncology study: https://www.futuremedicine.com/doi/full/10.2217/fon-2017-0578While several animal and cell culture studies point to a direct role of dietary fats in increasing colonic cell proliferation and associated risks [10–12], interpretations from population studies are more complex and inconsistent. For example, a retrospective study showed no risk association between high and low animal fat intake in a meta-analysis [13].1 -
Science has also found that a diet high in saturated fat is directly related to higher incidence of colon cancer, and that high consumption of red meat plays a large role. As someone with a high risk based on family history I would never in my life consider keto. It is not the right path for everyone.
I'm afraid that this is not correct.
Processed meats like bacon are found to to correlate with a 20% increased risk of colon cancer, which means that the risk rises from 5 to 6%.
A diet high is saturated fat has NOT been found to cause colon cancer, nor does it correlate to increased risk. The meat preservatives appear to be the problem, and not the meat. Saying that saturated fat is the problem is incorrect, but it is mainly the fault of poor journalism or those with an anti meat agenda.
But, if you do have evidence that saturated fat causes cancer, please share it. As someone who eats a lot if red meat, I would be curious to read it
I think with the exception of transfat, this can literally be said about everything. Science suggest correlations because all of this is multifaceted. Its no different than the stuff you say about refined carbs. Because one can consume lots of them and still become metabolically healthy.
Its why all diets produce similar results. The difference between all of these diets is minimal.3 -
MaintainInTheMembrane wrote: »I’m on the fence about it. I think it sounds great for people with epilepsy and similar issues.
Whether or not it helps you to lose weight depends on whether or not you’re in a calorie deficit.
Personally, I’m not interested in eating that way, so there’s no point. I’m in an endometriosis group, and some women in there swear by it in terms of how they feel it helps their symptoms, so it’s certainly something I follow with interest. But I haven’t heard any solid reasons to sway me to try it.
@MaintainInTheMembrane there is a lot of confusing info coming from the world of MD's to say nothing about the internet.
25-30 years ago I read about Keto and thought that would be great to learn how to do in case I or a family member came up with cancer. Now I know everyone that is old enough to post here has cancer cells in our bodies. I never got around to learning how to do the many different Keto WOE's.
4.5 years ago I was still not planning to do Keto and still have not 'planned' to do Keto. Keto was an accident in my case. I read Dr. Mary Davenport's n=1 coconut oil results with her husband's dementia. All I had around the house was pina colada mix so I stated in on that since it filled my then sugar requirements as well.
Well I did get straight coconut oil and was doing that when I had hunch about cutting out sugar and all forms of all grains for pain management.
Low and behold I was Low Carb High Fat without even having Keto on my conscious mind.
4.5 years later I think most all of my autoimmune related health issues have resolved or are resolving and is the reason I now plan to stick with Keto until I prove there is a better WOE in my case.
It took me realizing I was dying from my WOE's of the last 40 years so I just treated doing Keto as the key to keep living in my personal case.
Keto as a way to lose weight I still see as questionable because it was a bear for the first 90 days but keep in mind I was in a very poor state of health and had very limited mobility left. Because my pain started dropping like a rock in just the first 30 I was able to say NO to starting Enbrel injections Nov 2014 and avoiding that risk of cancer. Now I have to stop using Round-Up it seems as well.
After 3 years my MD finally said last year just keep doing what you are doing because your labs and exams are getting better each year. I think a lot of MD's do not understand how for some people Keto can help manage or resolve autoimmune diseases based on anecdotal information.
Best of success and remember it is the results of your own n=1 trials that count in your case because we are all different.9 -
Science has also found that a diet high in saturated fat is directly related to higher incidence of colon cancer, and that high consumption of red meat plays a large role. As someone with a high risk based on family history I would never in my life consider keto. It is not the right path for everyone.
I'm afraid that this is not correct.
Processed meats like bacon are found to to correlate with a 20% increased risk of colon cancer, which means that the risk rises from 5 to 6%.
A diet high is saturated fat has NOT been found to cause colon cancer, nor does it correlate to increased risk. The meat preservatives appear to be the problem, and not the meat. Saying that saturated fat is the problem is incorrect, but it is mainly the fault of poor journalism or those with an anti meat agenda.
But, if you do have evidence that saturated fat causes cancer, please share it. As someone who eats a lot if red meat, I would be curious to read it
I think with the exception of transfat, this can literally be said about everything. Science suggest correlations because all of this is multifaceted. Its no different than the stuff you say about refined carbs. Because one can consume lots of them and still become metabolically healthy.
Its why all diets produce similar results. The difference between all of these diets is minimal.
It could be said about everything, but it is usually the higher fat, and foods with higher saturated fats, that are demonized: red meat, eggs, full fat dairy, coconut or palm oil. It is marginally better now, but most people still wrongly think that red meat or coconut, foods that people have been eating for thousands of years, is bad for you.
Refined and highly processed foods, including many seed oils, are relatively new to our diet and have not shown themselves to be harmless, even in epidemiological studies. At best, they are neutral. At worst, frequent consumption appears to proceed or accompany poor health or diease.
8 -
Science has also found that a diet high in saturated fat is directly related to higher incidence of colon cancer, and that high consumption of red meat plays a large role. As someone with a high risk based on family history I would never in my life consider keto. It is not the right path for everyone.
I'm afraid that this is not correct.
Processed meats like bacon are found to to correlate with a 20% increased risk of colon cancer, which means that the risk rises from 5 to 6%.
A diet high is saturated fat has NOT been found to cause colon cancer, nor does it correlate to increased risk. The meat preservatives appear to be the problem, and not the meat. Saying that saturated fat is the problem is incorrect, but it is mainly the fault of poor journalism or those with an anti meat agenda.
But, if you do have evidence that saturated fat causes cancer, please share it. As someone who eats a lot if red meat, I would be curious to read it
I think with the exception of transfat, this can literally be said about everything. Science suggest correlations because all of this is multifaceted. Its no different than the stuff you say about refined carbs. Because one can consume lots of them and still become metabolically healthy.
Its why all diets produce similar results. The difference between all of these diets is minimal.
It could be said about everything, but it is usually the higher fat, and foods with higher saturated fats, that are demonized: red meat, eggs, full fat dairy, coconut or palm oil. It is marginally better now, but most people still wrongly think that red meat or coconut, foods that people have been eating for thousands of years, is bad for you.
Refined and highly processed foods, including many seed oils, are relatively new to our diet and have not shown themselves to be harmless, even in epidemiological studies. At best, they are neutral. At worst, frequent consumption appears to proceed or accompany poor health or diease.
LOL I think the pendulum has swung pretty hard the other way in that the only foods I see demonized these days are sugar, carbs, and “white foods”... totally ignoring that many of the examples provided contain as many calories from fat as from carbs... yet look how your own post ends...
11 -
WinoGelato wrote: »Science has also found that a diet high in saturated fat is directly related to higher incidence of colon cancer, and that high consumption of red meat plays a large role. As someone with a high risk based on family history I would never in my life consider keto. It is not the right path for everyone.
I'm afraid that this is not correct.
Processed meats like bacon are found to to correlate with a 20% increased risk of colon cancer, which means that the risk rises from 5 to 6%.
A diet high is saturated fat has NOT been found to cause colon cancer, nor does it correlate to increased risk. The meat preservatives appear to be the problem, and not the meat. Saying that saturated fat is the problem is incorrect, but it is mainly the fault of poor journalism or those with an anti meat agenda.
But, if you do have evidence that saturated fat causes cancer, please share it. As someone who eats a lot if red meat, I would be curious to read it
I think with the exception of transfat, this can literally be said about everything. Science suggest correlations because all of this is multifaceted. Its no different than the stuff you say about refined carbs. Because one can consume lots of them and still become metabolically healthy.
Its why all diets produce similar results. The difference between all of these diets is minimal.
It could be said about everything, but it is usually the higher fat, and foods with higher saturated fats, that are demonized: red meat, eggs, full fat dairy, coconut or palm oil. It is marginally better now, but most people still wrongly think that red meat or coconut, foods that people have been eating for thousands of years, is bad for you.
Refined and highly processed foods, including many seed oils, are relatively new to our diet and have not shown themselves to be harmless, even in epidemiological studies. At best, they are neutral. At worst, frequent consumption appears to proceed or accompany poor health or diease.
LOL I think the pendulum has swung pretty hard the other way in that the only foods I see demonized these days are sugar, carbs, and “white foods”... totally ignoring that many of the examples provided contain as many calories from fat as from carbs... yet look how your own post ends...
My response was to correct some common misinformation. Saturated fats have never been proven to hurt health, and the only correlation it has to poor health is when preserved and highly processed (like bacon) or when consumed with highly refined and processed carbs (baked deserts). If you remove those factors, saturated fats are harmless.
On the other hand, refined and highly processed carbohydrates do not appear to be as harmless as saturated fat, as seen often in less reliable epidemiological studies and a few rcts.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2869506/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5793267/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5996878/
But if you have something that shows refined and highly processed carbs improve health, or are associated with better health, I would be interested to read it.
I have never denied that eating too many calories make you fat. I have said in the past that high fat and high carb together is a recipe for weight gain, but in what you are quoting me, I was talking about the health effects of foods and not eating too much (aka CI>CO) or comparing calories.10 -
WinoGelato wrote: »Science has also found that a diet high in saturated fat is directly related to higher incidence of colon cancer, and that high consumption of red meat plays a large role. As someone with a high risk based on family history I would never in my life consider keto. It is not the right path for everyone.
I'm afraid that this is not correct.
Processed meats like bacon are found to to correlate with a 20% increased risk of colon cancer, which means that the risk rises from 5 to 6%.
A diet high is saturated fat has NOT been found to cause colon cancer, nor does it correlate to increased risk. The meat preservatives appear to be the problem, and not the meat. Saying that saturated fat is the problem is incorrect, but it is mainly the fault of poor journalism or those with an anti meat agenda.
But, if you do have evidence that saturated fat causes cancer, please share it. As someone who eats a lot if red meat, I would be curious to read it
I think with the exception of transfat, this can literally be said about everything. Science suggest correlations because all of this is multifaceted. Its no different than the stuff you say about refined carbs. Because one can consume lots of them and still become metabolically healthy.
Its why all diets produce similar results. The difference between all of these diets is minimal.
It could be said about everything, but it is usually the higher fat, and foods with higher saturated fats, that are demonized: red meat, eggs, full fat dairy, coconut or palm oil. It is marginally better now, but most people still wrongly think that red meat or coconut, foods that people have been eating for thousands of years, is bad for you.
Refined and highly processed foods, including many seed oils, are relatively new to our diet and have not shown themselves to be harmless, even in epidemiological studies. At best, they are neutral. At worst, frequent consumption appears to proceed or accompany poor health or diease.
LOL I think the pendulum has swung pretty hard the other way in that the only foods I see demonized these days are sugar, carbs, and “white foods”... totally ignoring that many of the examples provided contain as many calories from fat as from carbs... yet look how your own post ends...
My response was to correct some common misinformation. Saturated fats have never been proven to hurt health, and the only correlation it has to poor health is when preserved and highly processed (like bacon) or when consumed with highly refined and processed carbs (baked deserts). If you remove those factors, saturated fats are harmless.
On the other hand, refined and highly processed carbohydrates do not appear to be as harmless as saturated fat, as seen often in less reliable epidemiological studies and a few rcts.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2869506/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5793267/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5996878/
But if you have something that shows refined and highly processed carbs improve health, or are associated with better health, I would be interested to read it.
I have never denied that eating too many calories make you fat. I have said in the past that high fat and high carb together is a recipe for weight gain, but in what you are quoting me, I was talking about the health effects of foods and not eating too much (aka CI>CO) or comparing calories.
Who is arguing that refined and highly processed carbohydrates improve health or are associated with better health? There's a term for arguing against a claim that nobody is making . . .15 -
I feel like we've again wandered into "If you aren't eating keto, you are eating nothing but Doritos and Oreos with a side of Mountain Dew".
Keto can be "good". More moderate LCHF can be "good". Balanced macros can be "good". Vegetarian can be "good". A diet that mindfully incorporates some highly processed foods can be "good". A wildly variable diet that constantly changes your macro distribution and processing level can be "good".
The key is what that diet does to your weight, your energy level, your stress level, and your blood work. If there is a way you prefer to eat, there's a pretty good chance you can make it "healthy" if you try. There is no way of eating that if you pay no attention will guarantee you good health. And if you have a diagnosed medical condition, it is possible that one way of eating will be "best" for you, but that doesn't mean you can't make another way of eating work if you try and with the guidance of your doctor.
And I think you could make a reasonable argument that your activity level and state of mind will have an equal if not a more profound affect on your health than almost any food choices you make. So pick a diet that sounds realistic and satisfying to you, be mindful of making healthy choices within that diet, get up off your heinie and keep your blood pumping if you are physically able, and get a checkup every once and awhile. That's good 13 -
WinoGelato wrote: »Science has also found that a diet high in saturated fat is directly related to higher incidence of colon cancer, and that high consumption of red meat plays a large role. As someone with a high risk based on family history I would never in my life consider keto. It is not the right path for everyone.
I'm afraid that this is not correct.
Processed meats like bacon are found to to correlate with a 20% increased risk of colon cancer, which means that the risk rises from 5 to 6%.
A diet high is saturated fat has NOT been found to cause colon cancer, nor does it correlate to increased risk. The meat preservatives appear to be the problem, and not the meat. Saying that saturated fat is the problem is incorrect, but it is mainly the fault of poor journalism or those with an anti meat agenda.
But, if you do have evidence that saturated fat causes cancer, please share it. As someone who eats a lot if red meat, I would be curious to read it
I think with the exception of transfat, this can literally be said about everything. Science suggest correlations because all of this is multifaceted. Its no different than the stuff you say about refined carbs. Because one can consume lots of them and still become metabolically healthy.
Its why all diets produce similar results. The difference between all of these diets is minimal.
It could be said about everything, but it is usually the higher fat, and foods with higher saturated fats, that are demonized: red meat, eggs, full fat dairy, coconut or palm oil. It is marginally better now, but most people still wrongly think that red meat or coconut, foods that people have been eating for thousands of years, is bad for you.
Refined and highly processed foods, including many seed oils, are relatively new to our diet and have not shown themselves to be harmless, even in epidemiological studies. At best, they are neutral. At worst, frequent consumption appears to proceed or accompany poor health or diease.
LOL I think the pendulum has swung pretty hard the other way in that the only foods I see demonized these days are sugar, carbs, and “white foods”... totally ignoring that many of the examples provided contain as many calories from fat as from carbs... yet look how your own post ends...
My response was to correct some common misinformation. Saturated fats have never been proven to hurt health, and the only correlation it has to poor health is when preserved and highly processed (like bacon) or when consumed with highly refined and processed carbs (baked deserts). If you remove those factors, saturated fats are harmless.
On the other hand, refined and highly processed carbohydrates do not appear to be as harmless as saturated fat, as seen often in less reliable epidemiological studies and a few rcts.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2869506/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5793267/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5996878/
But if you have something that shows refined and highly processed carbs improve health, or are associated with better health, I would be interested to read it.
I have never denied that eating too many calories make you fat. I have said in the past that high fat and high carb together is a recipe for weight gain, but in what you are quoting me, I was talking about the health effects of foods and not eating too much (aka CI>CO) or comparing calories.
Do you realize that first link you posted goes against a lot of what you believe, especially as you have dipped more into carnivore?
My personal favorite:On the other hand, recent clinical trial and epidemiologic evidence suggests that a diet with moderately restricted carbohydrate intake but rich in vegetable fat and vegetable protein improves blood lipid profile (10) and is associated with lower risk of IHD in the long term (11). Benefits of the plant-based, low-carbohydrate diet are likely to stem from higher intake of polyunsaturated fats, fiber, and micronutrients as well as the reduced GL in the dietary pattern.
Clearly, diets high in either saturated fats or refined carbohydrates are not suitable for IHD prevention. However, refined carbohydrates are likely to cause even greater metabolic damage than saturated fat in a predominantly sedentary and overweight population. Although intake of saturated fat should remain at a relatively low amount and partially hydrogenated fats should be eliminated, a singular focus on reduction of total and saturated fat can be counterproductive because dietary fat is typically replaced by refined carbohydrate, as has been seen over the past several decades. In this era of widespread obesity and insulin resistance, the time has come to shift the focus of the diet-heart paradigm away from restricted fat intake and toward reduced consumption of refined carbohydrates.
So essentially, reduce and replaced processed carbs with whole carbs or plant based fats. And focus on PLANT BASED proteins, fats and fiber.
So no one would argue that processed carbs or processed fat is beneficial. Focus on whole foods is going to yield much better results. Also, modulating carbs based on adherence, personal satiety cues, and athletic performance needs.
ETA:
And from your second link:In summary, replacing dietary intake of SFA with refined starches has little effect on the risk of CHD. However, consumption of added sugars, especially of SSBs, may have a stronger association with risk than either SFA or refined starches. When SFA are replaced with whole grains, risk of CHD is decreased. However, there is still uncertainty regarding the absolute and relative importance of these different components of the diet. A growing weight of authoritative opinion is emerging that supports these conclusions [29,30,31].
How about that. Replacing SFA with whole grains (from cereals) does reduce the risk of CHD.
Essentially, while the correlations of SFA and CHD are low or not founded, you still see improved health when replacing SFA with other nutrients like PUFAs or whole grains.
14 -
And I think you could make a reasonable argument that your activity level and state of mind will have an equal if not a more profound affect on your health than almost any food choices you make. So pick a diet that sounds realistic and satisfying to you, be mindful of making healthy choices within that diet, get up off your heinie and keep your blood pumping if you are physically able, and get a checkup every once and awhile. That's good
This about sums it up quite nicely...
4 -
WinoGelato wrote: »Science has also found that a diet high in saturated fat is directly related to higher incidence of colon cancer, and that high consumption of red meat plays a large role. As someone with a high risk based on family history I would never in my life consider keto. It is not the right path for everyone.
I'm afraid that this is not correct.
Processed meats like bacon are found to to correlate with a 20% increased risk of colon cancer, which means that the risk rises from 5 to 6%.
A diet high is saturated fat has NOT been found to cause colon cancer, nor does it correlate to increased risk. The meat preservatives appear to be the problem, and not the meat. Saying that saturated fat is the problem is incorrect, but it is mainly the fault of poor journalism or those with an anti meat agenda.
But, if you do have evidence that saturated fat causes cancer, please share it. As someone who eats a lot if red meat, I would be curious to read it
I think with the exception of transfat, this can literally be said about everything. Science suggest correlations because all of this is multifaceted. Its no different than the stuff you say about refined carbs. Because one can consume lots of them and still become metabolically healthy.
Its why all diets produce similar results. The difference between all of these diets is minimal.
It could be said about everything, but it is usually the higher fat, and foods with higher saturated fats, that are demonized: red meat, eggs, full fat dairy, coconut or palm oil. It is marginally better now, but most people still wrongly think that red meat or coconut, foods that people have been eating for thousands of years, is bad for you.
Refined and highly processed foods, including many seed oils, are relatively new to our diet and have not shown themselves to be harmless, even in epidemiological studies. At best, they are neutral. At worst, frequent consumption appears to proceed or accompany poor health or diease.
LOL I think the pendulum has swung pretty hard the other way in that the only foods I see demonized these days are sugar, carbs, and “white foods”... totally ignoring that many of the examples provided contain as many calories from fat as from carbs... yet look how your own post ends...
My response was to correct some common misinformation. Saturated fats have never been proven to hurt health, and the only correlation it has to poor health is when preserved and highly processed (like bacon) or when consumed with highly refined and processed carbs (baked deserts). If you remove those factors, saturated fats are harmless.
On the other hand, refined and highly processed carbohydrates do not appear to be as harmless as saturated fat, as seen often in less reliable epidemiological studies and a few rcts.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2869506/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5793267/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5996878/
But if you have something that shows refined and highly processed carbs improve health, or are associated with better health, I would be interested to read it.
I have never denied that eating too many calories make you fat. I have said in the past that high fat and high carb together is a recipe for weight gain, but in what you are quoting me, I was talking about the health effects of foods and not eating too much (aka CI>CO) or comparing calories.
I’m not making a claim that refined and processed carbs improve health. I don’t believe any food in isolation should be demonized, nor do I believe a particular food or group of food have widespread health benefits for the average person. I think a satiating, varied and balanced nutrient dense diet that allows for treats in moderation is what most people should strive for. The specific macro split and what your own personal definition of “treats” and “moderation” can vary from person to person.
I was specifically pointing out the irony of you saying that people demonize higher fat foods, while following it up with a sweeping generalization of negativity toward processed carbs...15 -
-
janejellyroll wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »Science has also found that a diet high in saturated fat is directly related to higher incidence of colon cancer, and that high consumption of red meat plays a large role. As someone with a high risk based on family history I would never in my life consider keto. It is not the right path for everyone.
I'm afraid that this is not correct.
Processed meats like bacon are found to to correlate with a 20% increased risk of colon cancer, which means that the risk rises from 5 to 6%.
A diet high is saturated fat has NOT been found to cause colon cancer, nor does it correlate to increased risk. The meat preservatives appear to be the problem, and not the meat. Saying that saturated fat is the problem is incorrect, but it is mainly the fault of poor journalism or those with an anti meat agenda.
But, if you do have evidence that saturated fat causes cancer, please share it. As someone who eats a lot if red meat, I would be curious to read it
I think with the exception of transfat, this can literally be said about everything. Science suggest correlations because all of this is multifaceted. Its no different than the stuff you say about refined carbs. Because one can consume lots of them and still become metabolically healthy.
Its why all diets produce similar results. The difference between all of these diets is minimal.
It could be said about everything, but it is usually the higher fat, and foods with higher saturated fats, that are demonized: red meat, eggs, full fat dairy, coconut or palm oil. It is marginally better now, but most people still wrongly think that red meat or coconut, foods that people have been eating for thousands of years, is bad for you.
Refined and highly processed foods, including many seed oils, are relatively new to our diet and have not shown themselves to be harmless, even in epidemiological studies. At best, they are neutral. At worst, frequent consumption appears to proceed or accompany poor health or diease.
LOL I think the pendulum has swung pretty hard the other way in that the only foods I see demonized these days are sugar, carbs, and “white foods”... totally ignoring that many of the examples provided contain as many calories from fat as from carbs... yet look how your own post ends...
My response was to correct some common misinformation. Saturated fats have never been proven to hurt health, and the only correlation it has to poor health is when preserved and highly processed (like bacon) or when consumed with highly refined and processed carbs (baked deserts). If you remove those factors, saturated fats are harmless.
On the other hand, refined and highly processed carbohydrates do not appear to be as harmless as saturated fat, as seen often in less reliable epidemiological studies and a few rcts.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2869506/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5793267/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5996878/
But if you have something that shows refined and highly processed carbs improve health, or are associated with better health, I would be interested to read it.
I have never denied that eating too many calories make you fat. I have said in the past that high fat and high carb together is a recipe for weight gain, but in what you are quoting me, I was talking about the health effects of foods and not eating too much (aka CI>CO) or comparing calories.
Who is arguing that refined and highly processed carbohydrates improve health or are associated with better health? There's a term for arguing against a claim that nobody is making . . .
If you think refined and highly processed carbs are not contributors to poor or neutral health, I assumed one would think it is a positive contributor. I cant see another option. My point is that I have not seen any benefits to health.
The only benefits to health for the typical person of refined and highly processed carbohydrates, that I know of, is that it has calories.8 -
WinoGelato wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »Science has also found that a diet high in saturated fat is directly related to higher incidence of colon cancer, and that high consumption of red meat plays a large role. As someone with a high risk based on family history I would never in my life consider keto. It is not the right path for everyone.
I'm afraid that this is not correct.
Processed meats like bacon are found to to correlate with a 20% increased risk of colon cancer, which means that the risk rises from 5 to 6%.
A diet high is saturated fat has NOT been found to cause colon cancer, nor does it correlate to increased risk. The meat preservatives appear to be the problem, and not the meat. Saying that saturated fat is the problem is incorrect, but it is mainly the fault of poor journalism or those with an anti meat agenda.
But, if you do have evidence that saturated fat causes cancer, please share it. As someone who eats a lot if red meat, I would be curious to read it
I think with the exception of transfat, this can literally be said about everything. Science suggest correlations because all of this is multifaceted. Its no different than the stuff you say about refined carbs. Because one can consume lots of them and still become metabolically healthy.
Its why all diets produce similar results. The difference between all of these diets is minimal.
It could be said about everything, but it is usually the higher fat, and foods with higher saturated fats, that are demonized: red meat, eggs, full fat dairy, coconut or palm oil. It is marginally better now, but most people still wrongly think that red meat or coconut, foods that people have been eating for thousands of years, is bad for you.
Refined and highly processed foods, including many seed oils, are relatively new to our diet and have not shown themselves to be harmless, even in epidemiological studies. At best, they are neutral. At worst, frequent consumption appears to proceed or accompany poor health or diease.
LOL I think the pendulum has swung pretty hard the other way in that the only foods I see demonized these days are sugar, carbs, and “white foods”... totally ignoring that many of the examples provided contain as many calories from fat as from carbs... yet look how your own post ends...
My response was to correct some common misinformation. Saturated fats have never been proven to hurt health, and the only correlation it has to poor health is when preserved and highly processed (like bacon) or when consumed with highly refined and processed carbs (baked deserts). If you remove those factors, saturated fats are harmless.
On the other hand, refined and highly processed carbohydrates do not appear to be as harmless as saturated fat, as seen often in less reliable epidemiological studies and a few rcts.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2869506/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5793267/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5996878/
But if you have something that shows refined and highly processed carbs improve health, or are associated with better health, I would be interested to read it.
I have never denied that eating too many calories make you fat. I have said in the past that high fat and high carb together is a recipe for weight gain, but in what you are quoting me, I was talking about the health effects of foods and not eating too much (aka CI>CO) or comparing calories.
I’m not making a claim that refined and processed carbs improve health. I don’t believe any food in isolation should be demonized, nor do I believe a particular food or group of food have widespread health benefits for the average person. I think a satiating, varied and balanced nutrient dense diet that allows for treats in moderation is what most people should strive for. The specific macro split and what your own personal definition of “treats” and “moderation” can vary from person to person.
I was specifically pointing out the irony of you saying that people demonize higher fat foods, while following it up with a sweeping generalization of negativity toward processed carbs...
Some foods are better than others, nutritionally speaking. Refined and highly processed carbohydrates are not very nutritious - the added vitamins and minerals are somewhat. Stating that is not demonizing . Its more of a statement of widely accepted knowledge.7 -
Ah, ok thank you 0 -
janejellyroll wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »Science has also found that a diet high in saturated fat is directly related to higher incidence of colon cancer, and that high consumption of red meat plays a large role. As someone with a high risk based on family history I would never in my life consider keto. It is not the right path for everyone.
I'm afraid that this is not correct.
Processed meats like bacon are found to to correlate with a 20% increased risk of colon cancer, which means that the risk rises from 5 to 6%.
A diet high is saturated fat has NOT been found to cause colon cancer, nor does it correlate to increased risk. The meat preservatives appear to be the problem, and not the meat. Saying that saturated fat is the problem is incorrect, but it is mainly the fault of poor journalism or those with an anti meat agenda.
But, if you do have evidence that saturated fat causes cancer, please share it. As someone who eats a lot if red meat, I would be curious to read it
I think with the exception of transfat, this can literally be said about everything. Science suggest correlations because all of this is multifaceted. Its no different than the stuff you say about refined carbs. Because one can consume lots of them and still become metabolically healthy.
Its why all diets produce similar results. The difference between all of these diets is minimal.
It could be said about everything, but it is usually the higher fat, and foods with higher saturated fats, that are demonized: red meat, eggs, full fat dairy, coconut or palm oil. It is marginally better now, but most people still wrongly think that red meat or coconut, foods that people have been eating for thousands of years, is bad for you.
Refined and highly processed foods, including many seed oils, are relatively new to our diet and have not shown themselves to be harmless, even in epidemiological studies. At best, they are neutral. At worst, frequent consumption appears to proceed or accompany poor health or diease.
LOL I think the pendulum has swung pretty hard the other way in that the only foods I see demonized these days are sugar, carbs, and “white foods”... totally ignoring that many of the examples provided contain as many calories from fat as from carbs... yet look how your own post ends...
My response was to correct some common misinformation. Saturated fats have never been proven to hurt health, and the only correlation it has to poor health is when preserved and highly processed (like bacon) or when consumed with highly refined and processed carbs (baked deserts). If you remove those factors, saturated fats are harmless.
On the other hand, refined and highly processed carbohydrates do not appear to be as harmless as saturated fat, as seen often in less reliable epidemiological studies and a few rcts.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2869506/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5793267/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5996878/
But if you have something that shows refined and highly processed carbs improve health, or are associated with better health, I would be interested to read it.
I have never denied that eating too many calories make you fat. I have said in the past that high fat and high carb together is a recipe for weight gain, but in what you are quoting me, I was talking about the health effects of foods and not eating too much (aka CI>CO) or comparing calories.
Who is arguing that refined and highly processed carbohydrates improve health or are associated with better health? There's a term for arguing against a claim that nobody is making . . .
If you think refined and highly processed carbs are not contributors to poor or neutral health, I assumed one would think it is a positive contributor. I cant see another option. My point is that I have not seen any benefits to health.
The only benefits to health for the typical person of refined and highly processed carbohydrates, that I know of, is that it has calories.
I have yet to see anyone on here advocate for a diet consisting only of highly processed carbs, so again you seem to be moving the goalposts. If someone ate nothing but highly processed carbs, would that be a bad thing? Yeah, probably. That can also be said about any other food as well though, so I don't understand the point you are trying to make. I can eat highly processed carbs in addition to a wide variety of other foods and still have a healthy diet. In fact, I honestly believe my diet now is healthier than if I was to completely exclude them because they make me happy, and my diet is more sustainable that way.14 -
WinoGelato wrote: »Science has also found that a diet high in saturated fat is directly related to higher incidence of colon cancer, and that high consumption of red meat plays a large role. As someone with a high risk based on family history I would never in my life consider keto. It is not the right path for everyone.
I'm afraid that this is not correct.
Processed meats like bacon are found to to correlate with a 20% increased risk of colon cancer, which means that the risk rises from 5 to 6%.
A diet high is saturated fat has NOT been found to cause colon cancer, nor does it correlate to increased risk. The meat preservatives appear to be the problem, and not the meat. Saying that saturated fat is the problem is incorrect, but it is mainly the fault of poor journalism or those with an anti meat agenda.
But, if you do have evidence that saturated fat causes cancer, please share it. As someone who eats a lot if red meat, I would be curious to read it
I think with the exception of transfat, this can literally be said about everything. Science suggest correlations because all of this is multifaceted. Its no different than the stuff you say about refined carbs. Because one can consume lots of them and still become metabolically healthy.
Its why all diets produce similar results. The difference between all of these diets is minimal.
It could be said about everything, but it is usually the higher fat, and foods with higher saturated fats, that are demonized: red meat, eggs, full fat dairy, coconut or palm oil. It is marginally better now, but most people still wrongly think that red meat or coconut, foods that people have been eating for thousands of years, is bad for you.
Refined and highly processed foods, including many seed oils, are relatively new to our diet and have not shown themselves to be harmless, even in epidemiological studies. At best, they are neutral. At worst, frequent consumption appears to proceed or accompany poor health or diease.
LOL I think the pendulum has swung pretty hard the other way in that the only foods I see demonized these days are sugar, carbs, and “white foods”... totally ignoring that many of the examples provided contain as many calories from fat as from carbs... yet look how your own post ends...
My response was to correct some common misinformation. Saturated fats have never been proven to hurt health, and the only correlation it has to poor health is when preserved and highly processed (like bacon) or when consumed with highly refined and processed carbs (baked deserts). If you remove those factors, saturated fats are harmless.
On the other hand, refined and highly processed carbohydrates do not appear to be as harmless as saturated fat, as seen often in less reliable epidemiological studies and a few rcts.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2869506/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5793267/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5996878/
But if you have something that shows refined and highly processed carbs improve health, or are associated with better health, I would be interested to read it.
I have never denied that eating too many calories make you fat. I have said in the past that high fat and high carb together is a recipe for weight gain, but in what you are quoting me, I was talking about the health effects of foods and not eating too much (aka CI>CO) or comparing calories.
Do you realize that first link you posted goes against a lot of what you believe, especially as you have dipped more into carnivore?
My personal favorite:On the other hand, recent clinical trial and epidemiologic evidence suggests that a diet with moderately restricted carbohydrate intake but rich in vegetable fat and vegetable protein improves blood lipid profile (10) and is associated with lower risk of IHD in the long term (11). Benefits of the plant-based, low-carbohydrate diet are likely to stem from higher intake of polyunsaturated fats, fiber, and micronutrients as well as the reduced GL in the dietary pattern.
Clearly, diets high in either saturated fats or refined carbohydrates are not suitable for IHD prevention. However, refined carbohydrates are likely to cause even greater metabolic damage than saturated fat in a predominantly sedentary and overweight population. Although intake of saturated fat should remain at a relatively low amount and partially hydrogenated fats should be eliminated, a singular focus on reduction of total and saturated fat can be counterproductive because dietary fat is typically replaced by refined carbohydrate, as has been seen over the past several decades. In this era of widespread obesity and insulin resistance, the time has come to shift the focus of the diet-heart paradigm away from restricted fat intake and toward reduced consumption of refined carbohydrates.
So essentially, reduce and replaced processed carbs with whole carbs or plant based fats. And focus on PLANT BASED proteins, fats and fiber.
So no one would argue that processed carbs or processed fat is beneficial. Focus on whole foods is going to yield much better results. Also, modulating carbs based on adherence, personal satiety cues, and athletic performance needs.
ETA:
And from your second link:In summary, replacing dietary intake of SFA with refined starches has little effect on the risk of CHD. However, consumption of added sugars, especially of SSBs, may have a stronger association with risk than either SFA or refined starches. When SFA are replaced with whole grains, risk of CHD is decreased. However, there is still uncertainty regarding the absolute and relative importance of these different components of the diet. A growing weight of authoritative opinion is emerging that supports these conclusions [29,30,31].
How about that. Replacing SFA with whole grains (from cereals) does reduce the risk of CHD.
Essentially, while the correlations of SFA and CHD are low or not founded, you still see improved health when replacing SFA with other nutrients like PUFAs or whole grains.
Meh, it's pretty tough to find a link that supports everything I have experienced for myself. The links show what I intended: refined and highly processed carbs are foods best avoided or limited.
I have never denied that increasing plants and pufas happens to lower ldl, nor that past (poor) studies associated that with reduced cvd risk due to lowering of ldl (presuming ldl contributes to cvd). But I consider ldl to be the weakest of all associations to cvd risk, way behind HDL, triglycerides, crop, cac score and whether or not someone has hyperinsulinemia.
Pufas do lower ldl but that doesn't help CV health. Replacing sfa with whole grains does not lower risk of chd either - it only lowers ldl . You are conflating a weak association with causation.
Pufas also raise all cause mortality and raises your risk of developing cancer. I'll stick with more SFAs than recommended.
Plus the recommendation of a wfpb diet is over SAD. It is not shown that wfpb is better than wf-animal-based. I don't deny that wfpb can be healthy if supplemented properly, but it won't beat animal product heavy diets, nutritionally speaking.10 -
WinoGelato wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »Science has also found that a diet high in saturated fat is directly related to higher incidence of colon cancer, and that high consumption of red meat plays a large role. As someone with a high risk based on family history I would never in my life consider keto. It is not the right path for everyone.
I'm afraid that this is not correct.
Processed meats like bacon are found to to correlate with a 20% increased risk of colon cancer, which means that the risk rises from 5 to 6%.
A diet high is saturated fat has NOT been found to cause colon cancer, nor does it correlate to increased risk. The meat preservatives appear to be the problem, and not the meat. Saying that saturated fat is the problem is incorrect, but it is mainly the fault of poor journalism or those with an anti meat agenda.
But, if you do have evidence that saturated fat causes cancer, please share it. As someone who eats a lot if red meat, I would be curious to read it
I think with the exception of transfat, this can literally be said about everything. Science suggest correlations because all of this is multifaceted. Its no different than the stuff you say about refined carbs. Because one can consume lots of them and still become metabolically healthy.
Its why all diets produce similar results. The difference between all of these diets is minimal.
It could be said about everything, but it is usually the higher fat, and foods with higher saturated fats, that are demonized: red meat, eggs, full fat dairy, coconut or palm oil. It is marginally better now, but most people still wrongly think that red meat or coconut, foods that people have been eating for thousands of years, is bad for you.
Refined and highly processed foods, including many seed oils, are relatively new to our diet and have not shown themselves to be harmless, even in epidemiological studies. At best, they are neutral. At worst, frequent consumption appears to proceed or accompany poor health or diease.
LOL I think the pendulum has swung pretty hard the other way in that the only foods I see demonized these days are sugar, carbs, and “white foods”... totally ignoring that many of the examples provided contain as many calories from fat as from carbs... yet look how your own post ends...
My response was to correct some common misinformation. Saturated fats have never been proven to hurt health, and the only correlation it has to poor health is when preserved and highly processed (like bacon) or when consumed with highly refined and processed carbs (baked deserts). If you remove those factors, saturated fats are harmless.
On the other hand, refined and highly processed carbohydrates do not appear to be as harmless as saturated fat, as seen often in less reliable epidemiological studies and a few rcts.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2869506/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5793267/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5996878/
But if you have something that shows refined and highly processed carbs improve health, or are associated with better health, I would be interested to read it.
I have never denied that eating too many calories make you fat. I have said in the past that high fat and high carb together is a recipe for weight gain, but in what you are quoting me, I was talking about the health effects of foods and not eating too much (aka CI>CO) or comparing calories.
I’m not making a claim that refined and processed carbs improve health. I don’t believe any food in isolation should be demonized, nor do I believe a particular food or group of food have widespread health benefits for the average person. I think a satiating, varied and balanced nutrient dense diet that allows for treats in moderation is what most people should strive for. The specific macro split and what your own personal definition of “treats” and “moderation” can vary from person to person.
I was specifically pointing out the irony of you saying that people demonize higher fat foods, while following it up with a sweeping generalization of negativity toward processed carbs...
Some foods are better than others, nutritionally speaking. Refined and highly processed carbohydrates are not very nutritious - the added vitamins and minerals are somewhat. Stating that is not demonizing . Its more of a statement of widely accepted knowledge.
When you say it is best to avoid or limit them, that in itself is demonizing them.6 -
WinoGelato wrote: »Science has also found that a diet high in saturated fat is directly related to higher incidence of colon cancer, and that high consumption of red meat plays a large role. As someone with a high risk based on family history I would never in my life consider keto. It is not the right path for everyone.
I'm afraid that this is not correct.
Processed meats like bacon are found to to correlate with a 20% increased risk of colon cancer, which means that the risk rises from 5 to 6%.
A diet high is saturated fat has NOT been found to cause colon cancer, nor does it correlate to increased risk. The meat preservatives appear to be the problem, and not the meat. Saying that saturated fat is the problem is incorrect, but it is mainly the fault of poor journalism or those with an anti meat agenda.
But, if you do have evidence that saturated fat causes cancer, please share it. As someone who eats a lot if red meat, I would be curious to read it
I think with the exception of transfat, this can literally be said about everything. Science suggest correlations because all of this is multifaceted. Its no different than the stuff you say about refined carbs. Because one can consume lots of them and still become metabolically healthy.
Its why all diets produce similar results. The difference between all of these diets is minimal.
It could be said about everything, but it is usually the higher fat, and foods with higher saturated fats, that are demonized: red meat, eggs, full fat dairy, coconut or palm oil. It is marginally better now, but most people still wrongly think that red meat or coconut, foods that people have been eating for thousands of years, is bad for you.
Refined and highly processed foods, including many seed oils, are relatively new to our diet and have not shown themselves to be harmless, even in epidemiological studies. At best, they are neutral. At worst, frequent consumption appears to proceed or accompany poor health or diease.
LOL I think the pendulum has swung pretty hard the other way in that the only foods I see demonized these days are sugar, carbs, and “white foods”... totally ignoring that many of the examples provided contain as many calories from fat as from carbs... yet look how your own post ends...
My response was to correct some common misinformation. Saturated fats have never been proven to hurt health, and the only correlation it has to poor health is when preserved and highly processed (like bacon) or when consumed with highly refined and processed carbs (baked deserts). If you remove those factors, saturated fats are harmless.
On the other hand, refined and highly processed carbohydrates do not appear to be as harmless as saturated fat, as seen often in less reliable epidemiological studies and a few rcts.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2869506/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5793267/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5996878/
But if you have something that shows refined and highly processed carbs improve health, or are associated with better health, I would be interested to read it.
I have never denied that eating too many calories make you fat. I have said in the past that high fat and high carb together is a recipe for weight gain, but in what you are quoting me, I was talking about the health effects of foods and not eating too much (aka CI>CO) or comparing calories.
Do you realize that first link you posted goes against a lot of what you believe, especially as you have dipped more into carnivore?
My personal favorite:On the other hand, recent clinical trial and epidemiologic evidence suggests that a diet with moderately restricted carbohydrate intake but rich in vegetable fat and vegetable protein improves blood lipid profile (10) and is associated with lower risk of IHD in the long term (11). Benefits of the plant-based, low-carbohydrate diet are likely to stem from higher intake of polyunsaturated fats, fiber, and micronutrients as well as the reduced GL in the dietary pattern.
Clearly, diets high in either saturated fats or refined carbohydrates are not suitable for IHD prevention. However, refined carbohydrates are likely to cause even greater metabolic damage than saturated fat in a predominantly sedentary and overweight population. Although intake of saturated fat should remain at a relatively low amount and partially hydrogenated fats should be eliminated, a singular focus on reduction of total and saturated fat can be counterproductive because dietary fat is typically replaced by refined carbohydrate, as has been seen over the past several decades. In this era of widespread obesity and insulin resistance, the time has come to shift the focus of the diet-heart paradigm away from restricted fat intake and toward reduced consumption of refined carbohydrates.
So essentially, reduce and replaced processed carbs with whole carbs or plant based fats. And focus on PLANT BASED proteins, fats and fiber.
So no one would argue that processed carbs or processed fat is beneficial. Focus on whole foods is going to yield much better results. Also, modulating carbs based on adherence, personal satiety cues, and athletic performance needs.
ETA:
And from your second link:In summary, replacing dietary intake of SFA with refined starches has little effect on the risk of CHD. However, consumption of added sugars, especially of SSBs, may have a stronger association with risk than either SFA or refined starches. When SFA are replaced with whole grains, risk of CHD is decreased. However, there is still uncertainty regarding the absolute and relative importance of these different components of the diet. A growing weight of authoritative opinion is emerging that supports these conclusions [29,30,31].
How about that. Replacing SFA with whole grains (from cereals) does reduce the risk of CHD.
Essentially, while the correlations of SFA and CHD are low or not founded, you still see improved health when replacing SFA with other nutrients like PUFAs or whole grains.
Meh, it's pretty tough to find a link that supports everything I have experienced for myself. The links show what I intended: refined and highly processed carbs are foods best avoided or limited.
I have never denied that increasing plants and pufas happens to lower ldl, nor that past (poor) studies associated that with reduced cvd risk due to lowering of ldl (presuming ldl contributes to cvd). But I consider ldl to be the weakest of all associations to cvd risk, way behind HDL, triglycerides, crop, cac score and whether or not someone has hyperinsulinemia.
Pufas do lower ldl but that doesn't help CV health. Replacing sfa with whole grains does not lower risk of chd either - it only lowers ldl . You are conflating a weak association with causation.
Pufas also raise all cause mortality and raises your risk of developing cancer. I'll stick with more SFAs than recommended.
Plus the recommendation of a wfpb diet is over SAD. It is not shown that wfpb is better than wf-animal-based. I don't deny that wfpb can be healthy if supplemented properly, but it won't beat animal product heavy diets, nutritionally speaking.
Its amazing how you ignore what is written in favor of your own agenda. I literally copy and pasted what your cohert study suggested. The data suggested a 10-20% reduction in CHD disease when replacing SFA with whole grains. That is statistically significant. So adding more SFA does nothing to improve health. At best, its nuetral.9 -
janejellyroll wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »Science has also found that a diet high in saturated fat is directly related to higher incidence of colon cancer, and that high consumption of red meat plays a large role. As someone with a high risk based on family history I would never in my life consider keto. It is not the right path for everyone.
I'm afraid that this is not correct.
Processed meats like bacon are found to to correlate with a 20% increased risk of colon cancer, which means that the risk rises from 5 to 6%.
A diet high is saturated fat has NOT been found to cause colon cancer, nor does it correlate to increased risk. The meat preservatives appear to be the problem, and not the meat. Saying that saturated fat is the problem is incorrect, but it is mainly the fault of poor journalism or those with an anti meat agenda.
But, if you do have evidence that saturated fat causes cancer, please share it. As someone who eats a lot if red meat, I would be curious to read it
I think with the exception of transfat, this can literally be said about everything. Science suggest correlations because all of this is multifaceted. Its no different than the stuff you say about refined carbs. Because one can consume lots of them and still become metabolically healthy.
Its why all diets produce similar results. The difference between all of these diets is minimal.
It could be said about everything, but it is usually the higher fat, and foods with higher saturated fats, that are demonized: red meat, eggs, full fat dairy, coconut or palm oil. It is marginally better now, but most people still wrongly think that red meat or coconut, foods that people have been eating for thousands of years, is bad for you.
Refined and highly processed foods, including many seed oils, are relatively new to our diet and have not shown themselves to be harmless, even in epidemiological studies. At best, they are neutral. At worst, frequent consumption appears to proceed or accompany poor health or diease.
LOL I think the pendulum has swung pretty hard the other way in that the only foods I see demonized these days are sugar, carbs, and “white foods”... totally ignoring that many of the examples provided contain as many calories from fat as from carbs... yet look how your own post ends...
My response was to correct some common misinformation. Saturated fats have never been proven to hurt health, and the only correlation it has to poor health is when preserved and highly processed (like bacon) or when consumed with highly refined and processed carbs (baked deserts). If you remove those factors, saturated fats are harmless.
On the other hand, refined and highly processed carbohydrates do not appear to be as harmless as saturated fat, as seen often in less reliable epidemiological studies and a few rcts.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2869506/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5793267/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5996878/
But if you have something that shows refined and highly processed carbs improve health, or are associated with better health, I would be interested to read it.
I have never denied that eating too many calories make you fat. I have said in the past that high fat and high carb together is a recipe for weight gain, but in what you are quoting me, I was talking about the health effects of foods and not eating too much (aka CI>CO) or comparing calories.
Who is arguing that refined and highly processed carbohydrates improve health or are associated with better health? There's a term for arguing against a claim that nobody is making . . .
If you think refined and highly processed carbs are not contributors to poor or neutral health, I assumed one would think it is a positive contributor. I cant see another option. My point is that I have not seen any benefits to health.
The only benefits to health for the typical person of refined and highly processed carbohydrates, that I know of, is that it has calories.
I have yet to see anyone on here advocate for a diet consisting only of highly processed carbs, so again you seem to be moving the goalposts. If someone ate nothing but highly processed carbs, would that be a bad thing? Yeah, probably. That can also be said about any other food as well though, so I don't understand the point you are trying to make. I can eat highly processed carbs in addition to a wide variety of other foods and still have a healthy diet. In fact, I honestly believe my diet now is healthier than if I was to completely exclude them because they make me happy, and my diet is more sustainable that way.
You are moving the goal posts: I did not say anyone ate a diet of all refined and highly processed carbs either.
This quote was in response to someone saying SFA causes cancer. It does not.
Then someone else stated their opinion that " the only foods they see being demonized these days are sugar, carbs and 'whites foods'". My response to that was that refined and highly processed carbs are not being demonized if they are not good for you. Many plant foods are quite healthful. R+HP carbs are not. I also said that sfas are still commonly demonized, although it is declining.
I doubt your diet is healthier including R+HP carbs, than if you replaced it with some other whole food. Your diet is probably healthy enough to carry you despite that. Just like my diet is hopefully healthy enough to carry the fact that I eat pepperoni or bacon on most days.
Few people have a perfectly healthy diet. Some food items are healthier than others. Including small amounts of theses healthy items is less likely to do damage than including large amounts of those foods in a diet. We hedge our bets based on what we know or believe is true in nutrition science, and our own personal and health experience.7 -
janejellyroll wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »Science has also found that a diet high in saturated fat is directly related to higher incidence of colon cancer, and that high consumption of red meat plays a large role. As someone with a high risk based on family history I would never in my life consider keto. It is not the right path for everyone.
I'm afraid that this is not correct.
Processed meats like bacon are found to to correlate with a 20% increased risk of colon cancer, which means that the risk rises from 5 to 6%.
A diet high is saturated fat has NOT been found to cause colon cancer, nor does it correlate to increased risk. The meat preservatives appear to be the problem, and not the meat. Saying that saturated fat is the problem is incorrect, but it is mainly the fault of poor journalism or those with an anti meat agenda.
But, if you do have evidence that saturated fat causes cancer, please share it. As someone who eats a lot if red meat, I would be curious to read it
I think with the exception of transfat, this can literally be said about everything. Science suggest correlations because all of this is multifaceted. Its no different than the stuff you say about refined carbs. Because one can consume lots of them and still become metabolically healthy.
Its why all diets produce similar results. The difference between all of these diets is minimal.
It could be said about everything, but it is usually the higher fat, and foods with higher saturated fats, that are demonized: red meat, eggs, full fat dairy, coconut or palm oil. It is marginally better now, but most people still wrongly think that red meat or coconut, foods that people have been eating for thousands of years, is bad for you.
Refined and highly processed foods, including many seed oils, are relatively new to our diet and have not shown themselves to be harmless, even in epidemiological studies. At best, they are neutral. At worst, frequent consumption appears to proceed or accompany poor health or diease.
LOL I think the pendulum has swung pretty hard the other way in that the only foods I see demonized these days are sugar, carbs, and “white foods”... totally ignoring that many of the examples provided contain as many calories from fat as from carbs... yet look how your own post ends...
My response was to correct some common misinformation. Saturated fats have never been proven to hurt health, and the only correlation it has to poor health is when preserved and highly processed (like bacon) or when consumed with highly refined and processed carbs (baked deserts). If you remove those factors, saturated fats are harmless.
On the other hand, refined and highly processed carbohydrates do not appear to be as harmless as saturated fat, as seen often in less reliable epidemiological studies and a few rcts.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2869506/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5793267/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5996878/
But if you have something that shows refined and highly processed carbs improve health, or are associated with better health, I would be interested to read it.
I have never denied that eating too many calories make you fat. I have said in the past that high fat and high carb together is a recipe for weight gain, but in what you are quoting me, I was talking about the health effects of foods and not eating too much (aka CI>CO) or comparing calories.
Who is arguing that refined and highly processed carbohydrates improve health or are associated with better health? There's a term for arguing against a claim that nobody is making . . .
If you think refined and highly processed carbs are not contributors to poor or neutral health, I assumed one would think it is a positive contributor. I cant see another option. My point is that I have not seen any benefits to health.
The only benefits to health for the typical person of refined and highly processed carbohydrates, that I know of, is that it has calories.
I have yet to see anyone on here advocate for a diet consisting only of highly processed carbs, so again you seem to be moving the goalposts. If someone ate nothing but highly processed carbs, would that be a bad thing? Yeah, probably. That can also be said about any other food as well though, so I don't understand the point you are trying to make. I can eat highly processed carbs in addition to a wide variety of other foods and still have a healthy diet. In fact, I honestly believe my diet now is healthier than if I was to completely exclude them because they make me happy, and my diet is more sustainable that way.
You are moving the goal posts: I did not say anyone ate a diet of all refined and highly processed carbs either.
This quote was in response to someone saying SFA causes cancer. It does not.
Then someone else stated their opinion that " the only foods they see being demonized these days are sugar, carbs and 'whites foods'". My response to that was that refined and highly processed carbs are not being demonized if they are not good for you. Many plant foods are quite healthful. R+HP carbs are not. I also said that sfas are still commonly demonized, although it is declining.
I doubt your diet is healthier including R+HP carbs, than if you replaced it with some other whole food. Your diet is probably healthy enough to carry you despite that. Just like my diet is hopefully healthy enough to carry the fact that I eat pepperoni or bacon on most days.
Few people have a perfectly healthy diet. Some food items are healthier than others. Including small amounts of theses healthy items is less likely to do damage than including large amounts of those foods in a diet. We hedge our bets based on what we know or believe is true in nutrition science, and our own personal and health experience.
That person never stated it caused cancer. They said," Science has also found that a diet high in saturated fat is directly related to higher incidence of colon cancer, and that high consumption of red meat plays a large role."
The consumption of processed red meats is correlated with a 20-30% increase in colon cancer. That is what the current evidence suggests. So they were kind of wrong. It's not SFA, but processed meats.
Again, highly processed "foods" are not good for you, regardless if it's carbs or fat.8 -
janejellyroll wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »Science has also found that a diet high in saturated fat is directly related to higher incidence of colon cancer, and that high consumption of red meat plays a large role. As someone with a high risk based on family history I would never in my life consider keto. It is not the right path for everyone.
I'm afraid that this is not correct.
Processed meats like bacon are found to to correlate with a 20% increased risk of colon cancer, which means that the risk rises from 5 to 6%.
A diet high is saturated fat has NOT been found to cause colon cancer, nor does it correlate to increased risk. The meat preservatives appear to be the problem, and not the meat. Saying that saturated fat is the problem is incorrect, but it is mainly the fault of poor journalism or those with an anti meat agenda.
But, if you do have evidence that saturated fat causes cancer, please share it. As someone who eats a lot if red meat, I would be curious to read it
I think with the exception of transfat, this can literally be said about everything. Science suggest correlations because all of this is multifaceted. Its no different than the stuff you say about refined carbs. Because one can consume lots of them and still become metabolically healthy.
Its why all diets produce similar results. The difference between all of these diets is minimal.
It could be said about everything, but it is usually the higher fat, and foods with higher saturated fats, that are demonized: red meat, eggs, full fat dairy, coconut or palm oil. It is marginally better now, but most people still wrongly think that red meat or coconut, foods that people have been eating for thousands of years, is bad for you.
Refined and highly processed foods, including many seed oils, are relatively new to our diet and have not shown themselves to be harmless, even in epidemiological studies. At best, they are neutral. At worst, frequent consumption appears to proceed or accompany poor health or diease.
LOL I think the pendulum has swung pretty hard the other way in that the only foods I see demonized these days are sugar, carbs, and “white foods”... totally ignoring that many of the examples provided contain as many calories from fat as from carbs... yet look how your own post ends...
My response was to correct some common misinformation. Saturated fats have never been proven to hurt health, and the only correlation it has to poor health is when preserved and highly processed (like bacon) or when consumed with highly refined and processed carbs (baked deserts). If you remove those factors, saturated fats are harmless.
On the other hand, refined and highly processed carbohydrates do not appear to be as harmless as saturated fat, as seen often in less reliable epidemiological studies and a few rcts.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2869506/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5793267/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5996878/
But if you have something that shows refined and highly processed carbs improve health, or are associated with better health, I would be interested to read it.
I have never denied that eating too many calories make you fat. I have said in the past that high fat and high carb together is a recipe for weight gain, but in what you are quoting me, I was talking about the health effects of foods and not eating too much (aka CI>CO) or comparing calories.
Who is arguing that refined and highly processed carbohydrates improve health or are associated with better health? There's a term for arguing against a claim that nobody is making . . .
If you think refined and highly processed carbs are not contributors to poor or neutral health, I assumed one would think it is a positive contributor. I cant see another option. My point is that I have not seen any benefits to health.
The only benefits to health for the typical person of refined and highly processed carbohydrates, that I know of, is that it has calories.
Some of them (Fiber One bars, I'm looking at you!) are a good source of dietary fiber.6 -
janejellyroll wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »Science has also found that a diet high in saturated fat is directly related to higher incidence of colon cancer, and that high consumption of red meat plays a large role. As someone with a high risk based on family history I would never in my life consider keto. It is not the right path for everyone.
I'm afraid that this is not correct.
Processed meats like bacon are found to to correlate with a 20% increased risk of colon cancer, which means that the risk rises from 5 to 6%.
A diet high is saturated fat has NOT been found to cause colon cancer, nor does it correlate to increased risk. The meat preservatives appear to be the problem, and not the meat. Saying that saturated fat is the problem is incorrect, but it is mainly the fault of poor journalism or those with an anti meat agenda.
But, if you do have evidence that saturated fat causes cancer, please share it. As someone who eats a lot if red meat, I would be curious to read it
I think with the exception of transfat, this can literally be said about everything. Science suggest correlations because all of this is multifaceted. Its no different than the stuff you say about refined carbs. Because one can consume lots of them and still become metabolically healthy.
Its why all diets produce similar results. The difference between all of these diets is minimal.
It could be said about everything, but it is usually the higher fat, and foods with higher saturated fats, that are demonized: red meat, eggs, full fat dairy, coconut or palm oil. It is marginally better now, but most people still wrongly think that red meat or coconut, foods that people have been eating for thousands of years, is bad for you.
Refined and highly processed foods, including many seed oils, are relatively new to our diet and have not shown themselves to be harmless, even in epidemiological studies. At best, they are neutral. At worst, frequent consumption appears to proceed or accompany poor health or diease.
LOL I think the pendulum has swung pretty hard the other way in that the only foods I see demonized these days are sugar, carbs, and “white foods”... totally ignoring that many of the examples provided contain as many calories from fat as from carbs... yet look how your own post ends...
My response was to correct some common misinformation. Saturated fats have never been proven to hurt health, and the only correlation it has to poor health is when preserved and highly processed (like bacon) or when consumed with highly refined and processed carbs (baked deserts). If you remove those factors, saturated fats are harmless.
On the other hand, refined and highly processed carbohydrates do not appear to be as harmless as saturated fat, as seen often in less reliable epidemiological studies and a few rcts.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2869506/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5793267/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5996878/
But if you have something that shows refined and highly processed carbs improve health, or are associated with better health, I would be interested to read it.
I have never denied that eating too many calories make you fat. I have said in the past that high fat and high carb together is a recipe for weight gain, but in what you are quoting me, I was talking about the health effects of foods and not eating too much (aka CI>CO) or comparing calories.
Who is arguing that refined and highly processed carbohydrates improve health or are associated with better health? There's a term for arguing against a claim that nobody is making . . .
If you think refined and highly processed carbs are not contributors to poor or neutral health, I assumed one would think it is a positive contributor. I cant see another option. My point is that I have not seen any benefits to health.
The only benefits to health for the typical person of refined and highly processed carbohydrates, that I know of, is that it has calories.
I have yet to see anyone on here advocate for a diet consisting only of highly processed carbs, so again you seem to be moving the goalposts. If someone ate nothing but highly processed carbs, would that be a bad thing? Yeah, probably. That can also be said about any other food as well though, so I don't understand the point you are trying to make. I can eat highly processed carbs in addition to a wide variety of other foods and still have a healthy diet. In fact, I honestly believe my diet now is healthier than if I was to completely exclude them because they make me happy, and my diet is more sustainable that way.
You are moving the goal posts: I did not say anyone ate a diet of all refined and highly processed carbs either.
This quote was in response to someone saying SFA causes cancer. It does not.
Then someone else stated their opinion that " the only foods they see being demonized these days are sugar, carbs and 'whites foods'". My response to that was that refined and highly processed carbs are not being demonized if they are not good for you. Many plant foods are quite healthful. R+HP carbs are not. I also said that sfas are still commonly demonized, although it is declining.
I doubt your diet is healthier including R+HP carbs, than if you replaced it with some other whole food. Your diet is probably healthy enough to carry you despite that. Just like my diet is hopefully healthy enough to carry the fact that I eat pepperoni or bacon on most days.
Few people have a perfectly healthy diet. Some food items are healthier than others. Including small amounts of theses healthy items is less likely to do damage than including large amounts of those foods in a diet. We hedge our bets based on what we know or believe is true in nutrition science, and our own personal and health experience.
I already have plenty of whole foods in my diet. I like to have variety. I don't want to get bored with my diet or feel restricted. It is good for my mental health to be happy with what I eat, and positive mental health is a huge part of overall health. I am extremely active and do plenty of strength training and kickboxing and because of that I feel like I can enjoy all sorts of foods. It was nice of you to point out that my diet could be healthier, but I am going to do my own thing. Thanks.8 -
janejellyroll wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »Science has also found that a diet high in saturated fat is directly related to higher incidence of colon cancer, and that high consumption of red meat plays a large role. As someone with a high risk based on family history I would never in my life consider keto. It is not the right path for everyone.
I'm afraid that this is not correct.
Processed meats like bacon are found to to correlate with a 20% increased risk of colon cancer, which means that the risk rises from 5 to 6%.
A diet high is saturated fat has NOT been found to cause colon cancer, nor does it correlate to increased risk. The meat preservatives appear to be the problem, and not the meat. Saying that saturated fat is the problem is incorrect, but it is mainly the fault of poor journalism or those with an anti meat agenda.
But, if you do have evidence that saturated fat causes cancer, please share it. As someone who eats a lot if red meat, I would be curious to read it
I think with the exception of transfat, this can literally be said about everything. Science suggest correlations because all of this is multifaceted. Its no different than the stuff you say about refined carbs. Because one can consume lots of them and still become metabolically healthy.
Its why all diets produce similar results. The difference between all of these diets is minimal.
It could be said about everything, but it is usually the higher fat, and foods with higher saturated fats, that are demonized: red meat, eggs, full fat dairy, coconut or palm oil. It is marginally better now, but most people still wrongly think that red meat or coconut, foods that people have been eating for thousands of years, is bad for you.
Refined and highly processed foods, including many seed oils, are relatively new to our diet and have not shown themselves to be harmless, even in epidemiological studies. At best, they are neutral. At worst, frequent consumption appears to proceed or accompany poor health or diease.
LOL I think the pendulum has swung pretty hard the other way in that the only foods I see demonized these days are sugar, carbs, and “white foods”... totally ignoring that many of the examples provided contain as many calories from fat as from carbs... yet look how your own post ends...
My response was to correct some common misinformation. Saturated fats have never been proven to hurt health, and the only correlation it has to poor health is when preserved and highly processed (like bacon) or when consumed with highly refined and processed carbs (baked deserts). If you remove those factors, saturated fats are harmless.
On the other hand, refined and highly processed carbohydrates do not appear to be as harmless as saturated fat, as seen often in less reliable epidemiological studies and a few rcts.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2869506/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5793267/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5996878/
But if you have something that shows refined and highly processed carbs improve health, or are associated with better health, I would be interested to read it.
I have never denied that eating too many calories make you fat. I have said in the past that high fat and high carb together is a recipe for weight gain, but in what you are quoting me, I was talking about the health effects of foods and not eating too much (aka CI>CO) or comparing calories.
Who is arguing that refined and highly processed carbohydrates improve health or are associated with better health? There's a term for arguing against a claim that nobody is making . . .
If you think refined and highly processed carbs are not contributors to poor or neutral health, I assumed one would think it is a positive contributor. I cant see another option. My point is that I have not seen any benefits to health.
The only benefits to health for the typical person of refined and highly processed carbohydrates, that I know of, is that it has calories.
I have yet to see anyone on here advocate for a diet consisting only of highly processed carbs, so again you seem to be moving the goalposts. If someone ate nothing but highly processed carbs, would that be a bad thing? Yeah, probably. That can also be said about any other food as well though, so I don't understand the point you are trying to make. I can eat highly processed carbs in addition to a wide variety of other foods and still have a healthy diet. In fact, I honestly believe my diet now is healthier than if I was to completely exclude them because they make me happy, and my diet is more sustainable that way.
You are moving the goal posts: I did not say anyone ate a diet of all refined and highly processed carbs either.
This quote was in response to someone saying SFA causes cancer. It does not.
Then someone else stated their opinion that " the only foods they see being demonized these days are sugar, carbs and 'whites foods'". My response to that was that refined and highly processed carbs are not being demonized if they are not good for you. Many plant foods are quite healthful. R+HP carbs are not. I also said that sfas are still commonly demonized, although it is declining.
I doubt your diet is healthier including R+HP carbs, than if you replaced it with some other whole food. Your diet is probably healthy enough to carry you despite that. Just like my diet is hopefully healthy enough to carry the fact that I eat pepperoni or bacon on most days.
Few people have a perfectly healthy diet. Some food items are healthier than others. Including small amounts of theses healthy items is less likely to do damage than including large amounts of those foods in a diet. We hedge our bets based on what we know or believe is true in nutrition science, and our own personal and health experience.
I already have plenty of whole foods in my diet. I like to have variety. I don't want to get bored with my diet or feel restricted. It is good for my mental health to be happy with what I eat, and positive mental health is a huge part of overall health. I am extremely active and do plenty of strength training and kickboxing and because of that I feel like I can enjoy all sorts of foods. It was nice of you to point out that my diet could be healthier, but I am going to do my own thing. Thanks.
To add, once a person meets their nutritional goals, adding even more whole foods wont give you extra credit. And on top of that, the psychology battles are just as important for compliance and to prevent binging.9 -
janejellyroll wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »Science has also found that a diet high in saturated fat is directly related to higher incidence of colon cancer, and that high consumption of red meat plays a large role. As someone with a high risk based on family history I would never in my life consider keto. It is not the right path for everyone.
I'm afraid that this is not correct.
Processed meats like bacon are found to to correlate with a 20% increased risk of colon cancer, which means that the risk rises from 5 to 6%.
A diet high is saturated fat has NOT been found to cause colon cancer, nor does it correlate to increased risk. The meat preservatives appear to be the problem, and not the meat. Saying that saturated fat is the problem is incorrect, but it is mainly the fault of poor journalism or those with an anti meat agenda.
But, if you do have evidence that saturated fat causes cancer, please share it. As someone who eats a lot if red meat, I would be curious to read it
I think with the exception of transfat, this can literally be said about everything. Science suggest correlations because all of this is multifaceted. Its no different than the stuff you say about refined carbs. Because one can consume lots of them and still become metabolically healthy.
Its why all diets produce similar results. The difference between all of these diets is minimal.
It could be said about everything, but it is usually the higher fat, and foods with higher saturated fats, that are demonized: red meat, eggs, full fat dairy, coconut or palm oil. It is marginally better now, but most people still wrongly think that red meat or coconut, foods that people have been eating for thousands of years, is bad for you.
Refined and highly processed foods, including many seed oils, are relatively new to our diet and have not shown themselves to be harmless, even in epidemiological studies. At best, they are neutral. At worst, frequent consumption appears to proceed or accompany poor health or diease.
LOL I think the pendulum has swung pretty hard the other way in that the only foods I see demonized these days are sugar, carbs, and “white foods”... totally ignoring that many of the examples provided contain as many calories from fat as from carbs... yet look how your own post ends...
My response was to correct some common misinformation. Saturated fats have never been proven to hurt health, and the only correlation it has to poor health is when preserved and highly processed (like bacon) or when consumed with highly refined and processed carbs (baked deserts). If you remove those factors, saturated fats are harmless.
On the other hand, refined and highly processed carbohydrates do not appear to be as harmless as saturated fat, as seen often in less reliable epidemiological studies and a few rcts.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2869506/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5793267/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5996878/
But if you have something that shows refined and highly processed carbs improve health, or are associated with better health, I would be interested to read it.
I have never denied that eating too many calories make you fat. I have said in the past that high fat and high carb together is a recipe for weight gain, but in what you are quoting me, I was talking about the health effects of foods and not eating too much (aka CI>CO) or comparing calories.
Who is arguing that refined and highly processed carbohydrates improve health or are associated with better health? There's a term for arguing against a claim that nobody is making . . .
If you think refined and highly processed carbs are not contributors to poor or neutral health, I assumed one would think it is a positive contributor. I cant see another option. My point is that I have not seen any benefits to health.
The only benefits to health for the typical person of refined and highly processed carbohydrates, that I know of, is that it has calories.
I think it's possible that there are things that do not have a measured positive or negative impact, at least with our current tools. Do you think that is possible?4
This discussion has been closed.
Categories
- All Categories
- 1.4M Health, Wellness and Goals
- 393.6K Introduce Yourself
- 43.8K Getting Started
- 260.3K Health and Weight Loss
- 175.9K Food and Nutrition
- 47.5K Recipes
- 232.5K Fitness and Exercise
- 431 Sleep, Mindfulness and Overall Wellness
- 6.5K Goal: Maintaining Weight
- 8.6K Goal: Gaining Weight and Body Building
- 153K Motivation and Support
- 8K Challenges
- 1.3K Debate Club
- 96.3K Chit-Chat
- 2.5K Fun and Games
- 3.8K MyFitnessPal Information
- 24 News and Announcements
- 1.1K Feature Suggestions and Ideas
- 2.6K MyFitnessPal Tech Support Questions