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Keto diet = good or bad
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janejellyroll wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »Science has also found that a diet high in saturated fat is directly related to higher incidence of colon cancer, and that high consumption of red meat plays a large role. As someone with a high risk based on family history I would never in my life consider keto. It is not the right path for everyone.
I'm afraid that this is not correct.
Processed meats like bacon are found to to correlate with a 20% increased risk of colon cancer, which means that the risk rises from 5 to 6%.
A diet high is saturated fat has NOT been found to cause colon cancer, nor does it correlate to increased risk. The meat preservatives appear to be the problem, and not the meat. Saying that saturated fat is the problem is incorrect, but it is mainly the fault of poor journalism or those with an anti meat agenda.
But, if you do have evidence that saturated fat causes cancer, please share it. As someone who eats a lot if red meat, I would be curious to read it
I think with the exception of transfat, this can literally be said about everything. Science suggest correlations because all of this is multifaceted. Its no different than the stuff you say about refined carbs. Because one can consume lots of them and still become metabolically healthy.
Its why all diets produce similar results. The difference between all of these diets is minimal.
It could be said about everything, but it is usually the higher fat, and foods with higher saturated fats, that are demonized: red meat, eggs, full fat dairy, coconut or palm oil. It is marginally better now, but most people still wrongly think that red meat or coconut, foods that people have been eating for thousands of years, is bad for you.
Refined and highly processed foods, including many seed oils, are relatively new to our diet and have not shown themselves to be harmless, even in epidemiological studies. At best, they are neutral. At worst, frequent consumption appears to proceed or accompany poor health or diease.
LOL I think the pendulum has swung pretty hard the other way in that the only foods I see demonized these days are sugar, carbs, and “white foods”... totally ignoring that many of the examples provided contain as many calories from fat as from carbs... yet look how your own post ends...
My response was to correct some common misinformation. Saturated fats have never been proven to hurt health, and the only correlation it has to poor health is when preserved and highly processed (like bacon) or when consumed with highly refined and processed carbs (baked deserts). If you remove those factors, saturated fats are harmless.
On the other hand, refined and highly processed carbohydrates do not appear to be as harmless as saturated fat, as seen often in less reliable epidemiological studies and a few rcts.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2869506/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5793267/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5996878/
But if you have something that shows refined and highly processed carbs improve health, or are associated with better health, I would be interested to read it.
I have never denied that eating too many calories make you fat. I have said in the past that high fat and high carb together is a recipe for weight gain, but in what you are quoting me, I was talking about the health effects of foods and not eating too much (aka CI>CO) or comparing calories.
Who is arguing that refined and highly processed carbohydrates improve health or are associated with better health? There's a term for arguing against a claim that nobody is making . . .
If you think refined and highly processed carbs are not contributors to poor or neutral health, I assumed one would think it is a positive contributor. I cant see another option. My point is that I have not seen any benefits to health.
The only benefits to health for the typical person of refined and highly processed carbohydrates, that I know of, is that it has calories.
I have yet to see anyone on here advocate for a diet consisting only of highly processed carbs, so again you seem to be moving the goalposts. If someone ate nothing but highly processed carbs, would that be a bad thing? Yeah, probably. That can also be said about any other food as well though, so I don't understand the point you are trying to make. I can eat highly processed carbs in addition to a wide variety of other foods and still have a healthy diet. In fact, I honestly believe my diet now is healthier than if I was to completely exclude them because they make me happy, and my diet is more sustainable that way.14 -
WinoGelato wrote: »Science has also found that a diet high in saturated fat is directly related to higher incidence of colon cancer, and that high consumption of red meat plays a large role. As someone with a high risk based on family history I would never in my life consider keto. It is not the right path for everyone.
I'm afraid that this is not correct.
Processed meats like bacon are found to to correlate with a 20% increased risk of colon cancer, which means that the risk rises from 5 to 6%.
A diet high is saturated fat has NOT been found to cause colon cancer, nor does it correlate to increased risk. The meat preservatives appear to be the problem, and not the meat. Saying that saturated fat is the problem is incorrect, but it is mainly the fault of poor journalism or those with an anti meat agenda.
But, if you do have evidence that saturated fat causes cancer, please share it. As someone who eats a lot if red meat, I would be curious to read it
I think with the exception of transfat, this can literally be said about everything. Science suggest correlations because all of this is multifaceted. Its no different than the stuff you say about refined carbs. Because one can consume lots of them and still become metabolically healthy.
Its why all diets produce similar results. The difference between all of these diets is minimal.
It could be said about everything, but it is usually the higher fat, and foods with higher saturated fats, that are demonized: red meat, eggs, full fat dairy, coconut or palm oil. It is marginally better now, but most people still wrongly think that red meat or coconut, foods that people have been eating for thousands of years, is bad for you.
Refined and highly processed foods, including many seed oils, are relatively new to our diet and have not shown themselves to be harmless, even in epidemiological studies. At best, they are neutral. At worst, frequent consumption appears to proceed or accompany poor health or diease.
LOL I think the pendulum has swung pretty hard the other way in that the only foods I see demonized these days are sugar, carbs, and “white foods”... totally ignoring that many of the examples provided contain as many calories from fat as from carbs... yet look how your own post ends...
My response was to correct some common misinformation. Saturated fats have never been proven to hurt health, and the only correlation it has to poor health is when preserved and highly processed (like bacon) or when consumed with highly refined and processed carbs (baked deserts). If you remove those factors, saturated fats are harmless.
On the other hand, refined and highly processed carbohydrates do not appear to be as harmless as saturated fat, as seen often in less reliable epidemiological studies and a few rcts.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2869506/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5793267/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5996878/
But if you have something that shows refined and highly processed carbs improve health, or are associated with better health, I would be interested to read it.
I have never denied that eating too many calories make you fat. I have said in the past that high fat and high carb together is a recipe for weight gain, but in what you are quoting me, I was talking about the health effects of foods and not eating too much (aka CI>CO) or comparing calories.
Do you realize that first link you posted goes against a lot of what you believe, especially as you have dipped more into carnivore?
My personal favorite:On the other hand, recent clinical trial and epidemiologic evidence suggests that a diet with moderately restricted carbohydrate intake but rich in vegetable fat and vegetable protein improves blood lipid profile (10) and is associated with lower risk of IHD in the long term (11). Benefits of the plant-based, low-carbohydrate diet are likely to stem from higher intake of polyunsaturated fats, fiber, and micronutrients as well as the reduced GL in the dietary pattern.
Clearly, diets high in either saturated fats or refined carbohydrates are not suitable for IHD prevention. However, refined carbohydrates are likely to cause even greater metabolic damage than saturated fat in a predominantly sedentary and overweight population. Although intake of saturated fat should remain at a relatively low amount and partially hydrogenated fats should be eliminated, a singular focus on reduction of total and saturated fat can be counterproductive because dietary fat is typically replaced by refined carbohydrate, as has been seen over the past several decades. In this era of widespread obesity and insulin resistance, the time has come to shift the focus of the diet-heart paradigm away from restricted fat intake and toward reduced consumption of refined carbohydrates.
So essentially, reduce and replaced processed carbs with whole carbs or plant based fats. And focus on PLANT BASED proteins, fats and fiber.
So no one would argue that processed carbs or processed fat is beneficial. Focus on whole foods is going to yield much better results. Also, modulating carbs based on adherence, personal satiety cues, and athletic performance needs.
ETA:
And from your second link:In summary, replacing dietary intake of SFA with refined starches has little effect on the risk of CHD. However, consumption of added sugars, especially of SSBs, may have a stronger association with risk than either SFA or refined starches. When SFA are replaced with whole grains, risk of CHD is decreased. However, there is still uncertainty regarding the absolute and relative importance of these different components of the diet. A growing weight of authoritative opinion is emerging that supports these conclusions [29,30,31].
How about that. Replacing SFA with whole grains (from cereals) does reduce the risk of CHD.
Essentially, while the correlations of SFA and CHD are low or not founded, you still see improved health when replacing SFA with other nutrients like PUFAs or whole grains.
Meh, it's pretty tough to find a link that supports everything I have experienced for myself. The links show what I intended: refined and highly processed carbs are foods best avoided or limited.
I have never denied that increasing plants and pufas happens to lower ldl, nor that past (poor) studies associated that with reduced cvd risk due to lowering of ldl (presuming ldl contributes to cvd). But I consider ldl to be the weakest of all associations to cvd risk, way behind HDL, triglycerides, crop, cac score and whether or not someone has hyperinsulinemia.
Pufas do lower ldl but that doesn't help CV health. Replacing sfa with whole grains does not lower risk of chd either - it only lowers ldl . You are conflating a weak association with causation.
Pufas also raise all cause mortality and raises your risk of developing cancer. I'll stick with more SFAs than recommended.
Plus the recommendation of a wfpb diet is over SAD. It is not shown that wfpb is better than wf-animal-based. I don't deny that wfpb can be healthy if supplemented properly, but it won't beat animal product heavy diets, nutritionally speaking.10 -
WinoGelato wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »Science has also found that a diet high in saturated fat is directly related to higher incidence of colon cancer, and that high consumption of red meat plays a large role. As someone with a high risk based on family history I would never in my life consider keto. It is not the right path for everyone.
I'm afraid that this is not correct.
Processed meats like bacon are found to to correlate with a 20% increased risk of colon cancer, which means that the risk rises from 5 to 6%.
A diet high is saturated fat has NOT been found to cause colon cancer, nor does it correlate to increased risk. The meat preservatives appear to be the problem, and not the meat. Saying that saturated fat is the problem is incorrect, but it is mainly the fault of poor journalism or those with an anti meat agenda.
But, if you do have evidence that saturated fat causes cancer, please share it. As someone who eats a lot if red meat, I would be curious to read it
I think with the exception of transfat, this can literally be said about everything. Science suggest correlations because all of this is multifaceted. Its no different than the stuff you say about refined carbs. Because one can consume lots of them and still become metabolically healthy.
Its why all diets produce similar results. The difference between all of these diets is minimal.
It could be said about everything, but it is usually the higher fat, and foods with higher saturated fats, that are demonized: red meat, eggs, full fat dairy, coconut or palm oil. It is marginally better now, but most people still wrongly think that red meat or coconut, foods that people have been eating for thousands of years, is bad for you.
Refined and highly processed foods, including many seed oils, are relatively new to our diet and have not shown themselves to be harmless, even in epidemiological studies. At best, they are neutral. At worst, frequent consumption appears to proceed or accompany poor health or diease.
LOL I think the pendulum has swung pretty hard the other way in that the only foods I see demonized these days are sugar, carbs, and “white foods”... totally ignoring that many of the examples provided contain as many calories from fat as from carbs... yet look how your own post ends...
My response was to correct some common misinformation. Saturated fats have never been proven to hurt health, and the only correlation it has to poor health is when preserved and highly processed (like bacon) or when consumed with highly refined and processed carbs (baked deserts). If you remove those factors, saturated fats are harmless.
On the other hand, refined and highly processed carbohydrates do not appear to be as harmless as saturated fat, as seen often in less reliable epidemiological studies and a few rcts.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2869506/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5793267/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5996878/
But if you have something that shows refined and highly processed carbs improve health, or are associated with better health, I would be interested to read it.
I have never denied that eating too many calories make you fat. I have said in the past that high fat and high carb together is a recipe for weight gain, but in what you are quoting me, I was talking about the health effects of foods and not eating too much (aka CI>CO) or comparing calories.
I’m not making a claim that refined and processed carbs improve health. I don’t believe any food in isolation should be demonized, nor do I believe a particular food or group of food have widespread health benefits for the average person. I think a satiating, varied and balanced nutrient dense diet that allows for treats in moderation is what most people should strive for. The specific macro split and what your own personal definition of “treats” and “moderation” can vary from person to person.
I was specifically pointing out the irony of you saying that people demonize higher fat foods, while following it up with a sweeping generalization of negativity toward processed carbs...
Some foods are better than others, nutritionally speaking. Refined and highly processed carbohydrates are not very nutritious - the added vitamins and minerals are somewhat. Stating that is not demonizing . Its more of a statement of widely accepted knowledge.
When you say it is best to avoid or limit them, that in itself is demonizing them.6 -
WinoGelato wrote: »Science has also found that a diet high in saturated fat is directly related to higher incidence of colon cancer, and that high consumption of red meat plays a large role. As someone with a high risk based on family history I would never in my life consider keto. It is not the right path for everyone.
I'm afraid that this is not correct.
Processed meats like bacon are found to to correlate with a 20% increased risk of colon cancer, which means that the risk rises from 5 to 6%.
A diet high is saturated fat has NOT been found to cause colon cancer, nor does it correlate to increased risk. The meat preservatives appear to be the problem, and not the meat. Saying that saturated fat is the problem is incorrect, but it is mainly the fault of poor journalism or those with an anti meat agenda.
But, if you do have evidence that saturated fat causes cancer, please share it. As someone who eats a lot if red meat, I would be curious to read it
I think with the exception of transfat, this can literally be said about everything. Science suggest correlations because all of this is multifaceted. Its no different than the stuff you say about refined carbs. Because one can consume lots of them and still become metabolically healthy.
Its why all diets produce similar results. The difference between all of these diets is minimal.
It could be said about everything, but it is usually the higher fat, and foods with higher saturated fats, that are demonized: red meat, eggs, full fat dairy, coconut or palm oil. It is marginally better now, but most people still wrongly think that red meat or coconut, foods that people have been eating for thousands of years, is bad for you.
Refined and highly processed foods, including many seed oils, are relatively new to our diet and have not shown themselves to be harmless, even in epidemiological studies. At best, they are neutral. At worst, frequent consumption appears to proceed or accompany poor health or diease.
LOL I think the pendulum has swung pretty hard the other way in that the only foods I see demonized these days are sugar, carbs, and “white foods”... totally ignoring that many of the examples provided contain as many calories from fat as from carbs... yet look how your own post ends...
My response was to correct some common misinformation. Saturated fats have never been proven to hurt health, and the only correlation it has to poor health is when preserved and highly processed (like bacon) or when consumed with highly refined and processed carbs (baked deserts). If you remove those factors, saturated fats are harmless.
On the other hand, refined and highly processed carbohydrates do not appear to be as harmless as saturated fat, as seen often in less reliable epidemiological studies and a few rcts.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2869506/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5793267/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5996878/
But if you have something that shows refined and highly processed carbs improve health, or are associated with better health, I would be interested to read it.
I have never denied that eating too many calories make you fat. I have said in the past that high fat and high carb together is a recipe for weight gain, but in what you are quoting me, I was talking about the health effects of foods and not eating too much (aka CI>CO) or comparing calories.
Do you realize that first link you posted goes against a lot of what you believe, especially as you have dipped more into carnivore?
My personal favorite:On the other hand, recent clinical trial and epidemiologic evidence suggests that a diet with moderately restricted carbohydrate intake but rich in vegetable fat and vegetable protein improves blood lipid profile (10) and is associated with lower risk of IHD in the long term (11). Benefits of the plant-based, low-carbohydrate diet are likely to stem from higher intake of polyunsaturated fats, fiber, and micronutrients as well as the reduced GL in the dietary pattern.
Clearly, diets high in either saturated fats or refined carbohydrates are not suitable for IHD prevention. However, refined carbohydrates are likely to cause even greater metabolic damage than saturated fat in a predominantly sedentary and overweight population. Although intake of saturated fat should remain at a relatively low amount and partially hydrogenated fats should be eliminated, a singular focus on reduction of total and saturated fat can be counterproductive because dietary fat is typically replaced by refined carbohydrate, as has been seen over the past several decades. In this era of widespread obesity and insulin resistance, the time has come to shift the focus of the diet-heart paradigm away from restricted fat intake and toward reduced consumption of refined carbohydrates.
So essentially, reduce and replaced processed carbs with whole carbs or plant based fats. And focus on PLANT BASED proteins, fats and fiber.
So no one would argue that processed carbs or processed fat is beneficial. Focus on whole foods is going to yield much better results. Also, modulating carbs based on adherence, personal satiety cues, and athletic performance needs.
ETA:
And from your second link:In summary, replacing dietary intake of SFA with refined starches has little effect on the risk of CHD. However, consumption of added sugars, especially of SSBs, may have a stronger association with risk than either SFA or refined starches. When SFA are replaced with whole grains, risk of CHD is decreased. However, there is still uncertainty regarding the absolute and relative importance of these different components of the diet. A growing weight of authoritative opinion is emerging that supports these conclusions [29,30,31].
How about that. Replacing SFA with whole grains (from cereals) does reduce the risk of CHD.
Essentially, while the correlations of SFA and CHD are low or not founded, you still see improved health when replacing SFA with other nutrients like PUFAs or whole grains.
Meh, it's pretty tough to find a link that supports everything I have experienced for myself. The links show what I intended: refined and highly processed carbs are foods best avoided or limited.
I have never denied that increasing plants and pufas happens to lower ldl, nor that past (poor) studies associated that with reduced cvd risk due to lowering of ldl (presuming ldl contributes to cvd). But I consider ldl to be the weakest of all associations to cvd risk, way behind HDL, triglycerides, crop, cac score and whether or not someone has hyperinsulinemia.
Pufas do lower ldl but that doesn't help CV health. Replacing sfa with whole grains does not lower risk of chd either - it only lowers ldl . You are conflating a weak association with causation.
Pufas also raise all cause mortality and raises your risk of developing cancer. I'll stick with more SFAs than recommended.
Plus the recommendation of a wfpb diet is over SAD. It is not shown that wfpb is better than wf-animal-based. I don't deny that wfpb can be healthy if supplemented properly, but it won't beat animal product heavy diets, nutritionally speaking.
Its amazing how you ignore what is written in favor of your own agenda. I literally copy and pasted what your cohert study suggested. The data suggested a 10-20% reduction in CHD disease when replacing SFA with whole grains. That is statistically significant. So adding more SFA does nothing to improve health. At best, its nuetral.9 -
janejellyroll wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »Science has also found that a diet high in saturated fat is directly related to higher incidence of colon cancer, and that high consumption of red meat plays a large role. As someone with a high risk based on family history I would never in my life consider keto. It is not the right path for everyone.
I'm afraid that this is not correct.
Processed meats like bacon are found to to correlate with a 20% increased risk of colon cancer, which means that the risk rises from 5 to 6%.
A diet high is saturated fat has NOT been found to cause colon cancer, nor does it correlate to increased risk. The meat preservatives appear to be the problem, and not the meat. Saying that saturated fat is the problem is incorrect, but it is mainly the fault of poor journalism or those with an anti meat agenda.
But, if you do have evidence that saturated fat causes cancer, please share it. As someone who eats a lot if red meat, I would be curious to read it
I think with the exception of transfat, this can literally be said about everything. Science suggest correlations because all of this is multifaceted. Its no different than the stuff you say about refined carbs. Because one can consume lots of them and still become metabolically healthy.
Its why all diets produce similar results. The difference between all of these diets is minimal.
It could be said about everything, but it is usually the higher fat, and foods with higher saturated fats, that are demonized: red meat, eggs, full fat dairy, coconut or palm oil. It is marginally better now, but most people still wrongly think that red meat or coconut, foods that people have been eating for thousands of years, is bad for you.
Refined and highly processed foods, including many seed oils, are relatively new to our diet and have not shown themselves to be harmless, even in epidemiological studies. At best, they are neutral. At worst, frequent consumption appears to proceed or accompany poor health or diease.
LOL I think the pendulum has swung pretty hard the other way in that the only foods I see demonized these days are sugar, carbs, and “white foods”... totally ignoring that many of the examples provided contain as many calories from fat as from carbs... yet look how your own post ends...
My response was to correct some common misinformation. Saturated fats have never been proven to hurt health, and the only correlation it has to poor health is when preserved and highly processed (like bacon) or when consumed with highly refined and processed carbs (baked deserts). If you remove those factors, saturated fats are harmless.
On the other hand, refined and highly processed carbohydrates do not appear to be as harmless as saturated fat, as seen often in less reliable epidemiological studies and a few rcts.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2869506/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5793267/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5996878/
But if you have something that shows refined and highly processed carbs improve health, or are associated with better health, I would be interested to read it.
I have never denied that eating too many calories make you fat. I have said in the past that high fat and high carb together is a recipe for weight gain, but in what you are quoting me, I was talking about the health effects of foods and not eating too much (aka CI>CO) or comparing calories.
Who is arguing that refined and highly processed carbohydrates improve health or are associated with better health? There's a term for arguing against a claim that nobody is making . . .
If you think refined and highly processed carbs are not contributors to poor or neutral health, I assumed one would think it is a positive contributor. I cant see another option. My point is that I have not seen any benefits to health.
The only benefits to health for the typical person of refined and highly processed carbohydrates, that I know of, is that it has calories.
I have yet to see anyone on here advocate for a diet consisting only of highly processed carbs, so again you seem to be moving the goalposts. If someone ate nothing but highly processed carbs, would that be a bad thing? Yeah, probably. That can also be said about any other food as well though, so I don't understand the point you are trying to make. I can eat highly processed carbs in addition to a wide variety of other foods and still have a healthy diet. In fact, I honestly believe my diet now is healthier than if I was to completely exclude them because they make me happy, and my diet is more sustainable that way.
You are moving the goal posts: I did not say anyone ate a diet of all refined and highly processed carbs either.
This quote was in response to someone saying SFA causes cancer. It does not.
Then someone else stated their opinion that " the only foods they see being demonized these days are sugar, carbs and 'whites foods'". My response to that was that refined and highly processed carbs are not being demonized if they are not good for you. Many plant foods are quite healthful. R+HP carbs are not. I also said that sfas are still commonly demonized, although it is declining.
I doubt your diet is healthier including R+HP carbs, than if you replaced it with some other whole food. Your diet is probably healthy enough to carry you despite that. Just like my diet is hopefully healthy enough to carry the fact that I eat pepperoni or bacon on most days.
Few people have a perfectly healthy diet. Some food items are healthier than others. Including small amounts of theses healthy items is less likely to do damage than including large amounts of those foods in a diet. We hedge our bets based on what we know or believe is true in nutrition science, and our own personal and health experience.7 -
janejellyroll wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »Science has also found that a diet high in saturated fat is directly related to higher incidence of colon cancer, and that high consumption of red meat plays a large role. As someone with a high risk based on family history I would never in my life consider keto. It is not the right path for everyone.
I'm afraid that this is not correct.
Processed meats like bacon are found to to correlate with a 20% increased risk of colon cancer, which means that the risk rises from 5 to 6%.
A diet high is saturated fat has NOT been found to cause colon cancer, nor does it correlate to increased risk. The meat preservatives appear to be the problem, and not the meat. Saying that saturated fat is the problem is incorrect, but it is mainly the fault of poor journalism or those with an anti meat agenda.
But, if you do have evidence that saturated fat causes cancer, please share it. As someone who eats a lot if red meat, I would be curious to read it
I think with the exception of transfat, this can literally be said about everything. Science suggest correlations because all of this is multifaceted. Its no different than the stuff you say about refined carbs. Because one can consume lots of them and still become metabolically healthy.
Its why all diets produce similar results. The difference between all of these diets is minimal.
It could be said about everything, but it is usually the higher fat, and foods with higher saturated fats, that are demonized: red meat, eggs, full fat dairy, coconut or palm oil. It is marginally better now, but most people still wrongly think that red meat or coconut, foods that people have been eating for thousands of years, is bad for you.
Refined and highly processed foods, including many seed oils, are relatively new to our diet and have not shown themselves to be harmless, even in epidemiological studies. At best, they are neutral. At worst, frequent consumption appears to proceed or accompany poor health or diease.
LOL I think the pendulum has swung pretty hard the other way in that the only foods I see demonized these days are sugar, carbs, and “white foods”... totally ignoring that many of the examples provided contain as many calories from fat as from carbs... yet look how your own post ends...
My response was to correct some common misinformation. Saturated fats have never been proven to hurt health, and the only correlation it has to poor health is when preserved and highly processed (like bacon) or when consumed with highly refined and processed carbs (baked deserts). If you remove those factors, saturated fats are harmless.
On the other hand, refined and highly processed carbohydrates do not appear to be as harmless as saturated fat, as seen often in less reliable epidemiological studies and a few rcts.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2869506/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5793267/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5996878/
But if you have something that shows refined and highly processed carbs improve health, or are associated with better health, I would be interested to read it.
I have never denied that eating too many calories make you fat. I have said in the past that high fat and high carb together is a recipe for weight gain, but in what you are quoting me, I was talking about the health effects of foods and not eating too much (aka CI>CO) or comparing calories.
Who is arguing that refined and highly processed carbohydrates improve health or are associated with better health? There's a term for arguing against a claim that nobody is making . . .
If you think refined and highly processed carbs are not contributors to poor or neutral health, I assumed one would think it is a positive contributor. I cant see another option. My point is that I have not seen any benefits to health.
The only benefits to health for the typical person of refined and highly processed carbohydrates, that I know of, is that it has calories.
I have yet to see anyone on here advocate for a diet consisting only of highly processed carbs, so again you seem to be moving the goalposts. If someone ate nothing but highly processed carbs, would that be a bad thing? Yeah, probably. That can also be said about any other food as well though, so I don't understand the point you are trying to make. I can eat highly processed carbs in addition to a wide variety of other foods and still have a healthy diet. In fact, I honestly believe my diet now is healthier than if I was to completely exclude them because they make me happy, and my diet is more sustainable that way.
You are moving the goal posts: I did not say anyone ate a diet of all refined and highly processed carbs either.
This quote was in response to someone saying SFA causes cancer. It does not.
Then someone else stated their opinion that " the only foods they see being demonized these days are sugar, carbs and 'whites foods'". My response to that was that refined and highly processed carbs are not being demonized if they are not good for you. Many plant foods are quite healthful. R+HP carbs are not. I also said that sfas are still commonly demonized, although it is declining.
I doubt your diet is healthier including R+HP carbs, than if you replaced it with some other whole food. Your diet is probably healthy enough to carry you despite that. Just like my diet is hopefully healthy enough to carry the fact that I eat pepperoni or bacon on most days.
Few people have a perfectly healthy diet. Some food items are healthier than others. Including small amounts of theses healthy items is less likely to do damage than including large amounts of those foods in a diet. We hedge our bets based on what we know or believe is true in nutrition science, and our own personal and health experience.
That person never stated it caused cancer. They said," Science has also found that a diet high in saturated fat is directly related to higher incidence of colon cancer, and that high consumption of red meat plays a large role."
The consumption of processed red meats is correlated with a 20-30% increase in colon cancer. That is what the current evidence suggests. So they were kind of wrong. It's not SFA, but processed meats.
Again, highly processed "foods" are not good for you, regardless if it's carbs or fat.8 -
janejellyroll wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »Science has also found that a diet high in saturated fat is directly related to higher incidence of colon cancer, and that high consumption of red meat plays a large role. As someone with a high risk based on family history I would never in my life consider keto. It is not the right path for everyone.
I'm afraid that this is not correct.
Processed meats like bacon are found to to correlate with a 20% increased risk of colon cancer, which means that the risk rises from 5 to 6%.
A diet high is saturated fat has NOT been found to cause colon cancer, nor does it correlate to increased risk. The meat preservatives appear to be the problem, and not the meat. Saying that saturated fat is the problem is incorrect, but it is mainly the fault of poor journalism or those with an anti meat agenda.
But, if you do have evidence that saturated fat causes cancer, please share it. As someone who eats a lot if red meat, I would be curious to read it
I think with the exception of transfat, this can literally be said about everything. Science suggest correlations because all of this is multifaceted. Its no different than the stuff you say about refined carbs. Because one can consume lots of them and still become metabolically healthy.
Its why all diets produce similar results. The difference between all of these diets is minimal.
It could be said about everything, but it is usually the higher fat, and foods with higher saturated fats, that are demonized: red meat, eggs, full fat dairy, coconut or palm oil. It is marginally better now, but most people still wrongly think that red meat or coconut, foods that people have been eating for thousands of years, is bad for you.
Refined and highly processed foods, including many seed oils, are relatively new to our diet and have not shown themselves to be harmless, even in epidemiological studies. At best, they are neutral. At worst, frequent consumption appears to proceed or accompany poor health or diease.
LOL I think the pendulum has swung pretty hard the other way in that the only foods I see demonized these days are sugar, carbs, and “white foods”... totally ignoring that many of the examples provided contain as many calories from fat as from carbs... yet look how your own post ends...
My response was to correct some common misinformation. Saturated fats have never been proven to hurt health, and the only correlation it has to poor health is when preserved and highly processed (like bacon) or when consumed with highly refined and processed carbs (baked deserts). If you remove those factors, saturated fats are harmless.
On the other hand, refined and highly processed carbohydrates do not appear to be as harmless as saturated fat, as seen often in less reliable epidemiological studies and a few rcts.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2869506/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5793267/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5996878/
But if you have something that shows refined and highly processed carbs improve health, or are associated with better health, I would be interested to read it.
I have never denied that eating too many calories make you fat. I have said in the past that high fat and high carb together is a recipe for weight gain, but in what you are quoting me, I was talking about the health effects of foods and not eating too much (aka CI>CO) or comparing calories.
Who is arguing that refined and highly processed carbohydrates improve health or are associated with better health? There's a term for arguing against a claim that nobody is making . . .
If you think refined and highly processed carbs are not contributors to poor or neutral health, I assumed one would think it is a positive contributor. I cant see another option. My point is that I have not seen any benefits to health.
The only benefits to health for the typical person of refined and highly processed carbohydrates, that I know of, is that it has calories.
Some of them (Fiber One bars, I'm looking at you!) are a good source of dietary fiber.6 -
janejellyroll wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »Science has also found that a diet high in saturated fat is directly related to higher incidence of colon cancer, and that high consumption of red meat plays a large role. As someone with a high risk based on family history I would never in my life consider keto. It is not the right path for everyone.
I'm afraid that this is not correct.
Processed meats like bacon are found to to correlate with a 20% increased risk of colon cancer, which means that the risk rises from 5 to 6%.
A diet high is saturated fat has NOT been found to cause colon cancer, nor does it correlate to increased risk. The meat preservatives appear to be the problem, and not the meat. Saying that saturated fat is the problem is incorrect, but it is mainly the fault of poor journalism or those with an anti meat agenda.
But, if you do have evidence that saturated fat causes cancer, please share it. As someone who eats a lot if red meat, I would be curious to read it
I think with the exception of transfat, this can literally be said about everything. Science suggest correlations because all of this is multifaceted. Its no different than the stuff you say about refined carbs. Because one can consume lots of them and still become metabolically healthy.
Its why all diets produce similar results. The difference between all of these diets is minimal.
It could be said about everything, but it is usually the higher fat, and foods with higher saturated fats, that are demonized: red meat, eggs, full fat dairy, coconut or palm oil. It is marginally better now, but most people still wrongly think that red meat or coconut, foods that people have been eating for thousands of years, is bad for you.
Refined and highly processed foods, including many seed oils, are relatively new to our diet and have not shown themselves to be harmless, even in epidemiological studies. At best, they are neutral. At worst, frequent consumption appears to proceed or accompany poor health or diease.
LOL I think the pendulum has swung pretty hard the other way in that the only foods I see demonized these days are sugar, carbs, and “white foods”... totally ignoring that many of the examples provided contain as many calories from fat as from carbs... yet look how your own post ends...
My response was to correct some common misinformation. Saturated fats have never been proven to hurt health, and the only correlation it has to poor health is when preserved and highly processed (like bacon) or when consumed with highly refined and processed carbs (baked deserts). If you remove those factors, saturated fats are harmless.
On the other hand, refined and highly processed carbohydrates do not appear to be as harmless as saturated fat, as seen often in less reliable epidemiological studies and a few rcts.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2869506/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5793267/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5996878/
But if you have something that shows refined and highly processed carbs improve health, or are associated with better health, I would be interested to read it.
I have never denied that eating too many calories make you fat. I have said in the past that high fat and high carb together is a recipe for weight gain, but in what you are quoting me, I was talking about the health effects of foods and not eating too much (aka CI>CO) or comparing calories.
Who is arguing that refined and highly processed carbohydrates improve health or are associated with better health? There's a term for arguing against a claim that nobody is making . . .
If you think refined and highly processed carbs are not contributors to poor or neutral health, I assumed one would think it is a positive contributor. I cant see another option. My point is that I have not seen any benefits to health.
The only benefits to health for the typical person of refined and highly processed carbohydrates, that I know of, is that it has calories.
I have yet to see anyone on here advocate for a diet consisting only of highly processed carbs, so again you seem to be moving the goalposts. If someone ate nothing but highly processed carbs, would that be a bad thing? Yeah, probably. That can also be said about any other food as well though, so I don't understand the point you are trying to make. I can eat highly processed carbs in addition to a wide variety of other foods and still have a healthy diet. In fact, I honestly believe my diet now is healthier than if I was to completely exclude them because they make me happy, and my diet is more sustainable that way.
You are moving the goal posts: I did not say anyone ate a diet of all refined and highly processed carbs either.
This quote was in response to someone saying SFA causes cancer. It does not.
Then someone else stated their opinion that " the only foods they see being demonized these days are sugar, carbs and 'whites foods'". My response to that was that refined and highly processed carbs are not being demonized if they are not good for you. Many plant foods are quite healthful. R+HP carbs are not. I also said that sfas are still commonly demonized, although it is declining.
I doubt your diet is healthier including R+HP carbs, than if you replaced it with some other whole food. Your diet is probably healthy enough to carry you despite that. Just like my diet is hopefully healthy enough to carry the fact that I eat pepperoni or bacon on most days.
Few people have a perfectly healthy diet. Some food items are healthier than others. Including small amounts of theses healthy items is less likely to do damage than including large amounts of those foods in a diet. We hedge our bets based on what we know or believe is true in nutrition science, and our own personal and health experience.
I already have plenty of whole foods in my diet. I like to have variety. I don't want to get bored with my diet or feel restricted. It is good for my mental health to be happy with what I eat, and positive mental health is a huge part of overall health. I am extremely active and do plenty of strength training and kickboxing and because of that I feel like I can enjoy all sorts of foods. It was nice of you to point out that my diet could be healthier, but I am going to do my own thing. Thanks.8 -
janejellyroll wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »Science has also found that a diet high in saturated fat is directly related to higher incidence of colon cancer, and that high consumption of red meat plays a large role. As someone with a high risk based on family history I would never in my life consider keto. It is not the right path for everyone.
I'm afraid that this is not correct.
Processed meats like bacon are found to to correlate with a 20% increased risk of colon cancer, which means that the risk rises from 5 to 6%.
A diet high is saturated fat has NOT been found to cause colon cancer, nor does it correlate to increased risk. The meat preservatives appear to be the problem, and not the meat. Saying that saturated fat is the problem is incorrect, but it is mainly the fault of poor journalism or those with an anti meat agenda.
But, if you do have evidence that saturated fat causes cancer, please share it. As someone who eats a lot if red meat, I would be curious to read it
I think with the exception of transfat, this can literally be said about everything. Science suggest correlations because all of this is multifaceted. Its no different than the stuff you say about refined carbs. Because one can consume lots of them and still become metabolically healthy.
Its why all diets produce similar results. The difference between all of these diets is minimal.
It could be said about everything, but it is usually the higher fat, and foods with higher saturated fats, that are demonized: red meat, eggs, full fat dairy, coconut or palm oil. It is marginally better now, but most people still wrongly think that red meat or coconut, foods that people have been eating for thousands of years, is bad for you.
Refined and highly processed foods, including many seed oils, are relatively new to our diet and have not shown themselves to be harmless, even in epidemiological studies. At best, they are neutral. At worst, frequent consumption appears to proceed or accompany poor health or diease.
LOL I think the pendulum has swung pretty hard the other way in that the only foods I see demonized these days are sugar, carbs, and “white foods”... totally ignoring that many of the examples provided contain as many calories from fat as from carbs... yet look how your own post ends...
My response was to correct some common misinformation. Saturated fats have never been proven to hurt health, and the only correlation it has to poor health is when preserved and highly processed (like bacon) or when consumed with highly refined and processed carbs (baked deserts). If you remove those factors, saturated fats are harmless.
On the other hand, refined and highly processed carbohydrates do not appear to be as harmless as saturated fat, as seen often in less reliable epidemiological studies and a few rcts.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2869506/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5793267/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5996878/
But if you have something that shows refined and highly processed carbs improve health, or are associated with better health, I would be interested to read it.
I have never denied that eating too many calories make you fat. I have said in the past that high fat and high carb together is a recipe for weight gain, but in what you are quoting me, I was talking about the health effects of foods and not eating too much (aka CI>CO) or comparing calories.
Who is arguing that refined and highly processed carbohydrates improve health or are associated with better health? There's a term for arguing against a claim that nobody is making . . .
If you think refined and highly processed carbs are not contributors to poor or neutral health, I assumed one would think it is a positive contributor. I cant see another option. My point is that I have not seen any benefits to health.
The only benefits to health for the typical person of refined and highly processed carbohydrates, that I know of, is that it has calories.
I have yet to see anyone on here advocate for a diet consisting only of highly processed carbs, so again you seem to be moving the goalposts. If someone ate nothing but highly processed carbs, would that be a bad thing? Yeah, probably. That can also be said about any other food as well though, so I don't understand the point you are trying to make. I can eat highly processed carbs in addition to a wide variety of other foods and still have a healthy diet. In fact, I honestly believe my diet now is healthier than if I was to completely exclude them because they make me happy, and my diet is more sustainable that way.
You are moving the goal posts: I did not say anyone ate a diet of all refined and highly processed carbs either.
This quote was in response to someone saying SFA causes cancer. It does not.
Then someone else stated their opinion that " the only foods they see being demonized these days are sugar, carbs and 'whites foods'". My response to that was that refined and highly processed carbs are not being demonized if they are not good for you. Many plant foods are quite healthful. R+HP carbs are not. I also said that sfas are still commonly demonized, although it is declining.
I doubt your diet is healthier including R+HP carbs, than if you replaced it with some other whole food. Your diet is probably healthy enough to carry you despite that. Just like my diet is hopefully healthy enough to carry the fact that I eat pepperoni or bacon on most days.
Few people have a perfectly healthy diet. Some food items are healthier than others. Including small amounts of theses healthy items is less likely to do damage than including large amounts of those foods in a diet. We hedge our bets based on what we know or believe is true in nutrition science, and our own personal and health experience.
I already have plenty of whole foods in my diet. I like to have variety. I don't want to get bored with my diet or feel restricted. It is good for my mental health to be happy with what I eat, and positive mental health is a huge part of overall health. I am extremely active and do plenty of strength training and kickboxing and because of that I feel like I can enjoy all sorts of foods. It was nice of you to point out that my diet could be healthier, but I am going to do my own thing. Thanks.
To add, once a person meets their nutritional goals, adding even more whole foods wont give you extra credit. And on top of that, the psychology battles are just as important for compliance and to prevent binging.9 -
janejellyroll wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »Science has also found that a diet high in saturated fat is directly related to higher incidence of colon cancer, and that high consumption of red meat plays a large role. As someone with a high risk based on family history I would never in my life consider keto. It is not the right path for everyone.
I'm afraid that this is not correct.
Processed meats like bacon are found to to correlate with a 20% increased risk of colon cancer, which means that the risk rises from 5 to 6%.
A diet high is saturated fat has NOT been found to cause colon cancer, nor does it correlate to increased risk. The meat preservatives appear to be the problem, and not the meat. Saying that saturated fat is the problem is incorrect, but it is mainly the fault of poor journalism or those with an anti meat agenda.
But, if you do have evidence that saturated fat causes cancer, please share it. As someone who eats a lot if red meat, I would be curious to read it
I think with the exception of transfat, this can literally be said about everything. Science suggest correlations because all of this is multifaceted. Its no different than the stuff you say about refined carbs. Because one can consume lots of them and still become metabolically healthy.
Its why all diets produce similar results. The difference between all of these diets is minimal.
It could be said about everything, but it is usually the higher fat, and foods with higher saturated fats, that are demonized: red meat, eggs, full fat dairy, coconut or palm oil. It is marginally better now, but most people still wrongly think that red meat or coconut, foods that people have been eating for thousands of years, is bad for you.
Refined and highly processed foods, including many seed oils, are relatively new to our diet and have not shown themselves to be harmless, even in epidemiological studies. At best, they are neutral. At worst, frequent consumption appears to proceed or accompany poor health or diease.
LOL I think the pendulum has swung pretty hard the other way in that the only foods I see demonized these days are sugar, carbs, and “white foods”... totally ignoring that many of the examples provided contain as many calories from fat as from carbs... yet look how your own post ends...
My response was to correct some common misinformation. Saturated fats have never been proven to hurt health, and the only correlation it has to poor health is when preserved and highly processed (like bacon) or when consumed with highly refined and processed carbs (baked deserts). If you remove those factors, saturated fats are harmless.
On the other hand, refined and highly processed carbohydrates do not appear to be as harmless as saturated fat, as seen often in less reliable epidemiological studies and a few rcts.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2869506/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5793267/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5996878/
But if you have something that shows refined and highly processed carbs improve health, or are associated with better health, I would be interested to read it.
I have never denied that eating too many calories make you fat. I have said in the past that high fat and high carb together is a recipe for weight gain, but in what you are quoting me, I was talking about the health effects of foods and not eating too much (aka CI>CO) or comparing calories.
Who is arguing that refined and highly processed carbohydrates improve health or are associated with better health? There's a term for arguing against a claim that nobody is making . . .
If you think refined and highly processed carbs are not contributors to poor or neutral health, I assumed one would think it is a positive contributor. I cant see another option. My point is that I have not seen any benefits to health.
The only benefits to health for the typical person of refined and highly processed carbohydrates, that I know of, is that it has calories.
I think it's possible that there are things that do not have a measured positive or negative impact, at least with our current tools. Do you think that is possible?4 -
janejellyroll wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »Science has also found that a diet high in saturated fat is directly related to higher incidence of colon cancer, and that high consumption of red meat plays a large role. As someone with a high risk based on family history I would never in my life consider keto. It is not the right path for everyone.
I'm afraid that this is not correct.
Processed meats like bacon are found to to correlate with a 20% increased risk of colon cancer, which means that the risk rises from 5 to 6%.
A diet high is saturated fat has NOT been found to cause colon cancer, nor does it correlate to increased risk. The meat preservatives appear to be the problem, and not the meat. Saying that saturated fat is the problem is incorrect, but it is mainly the fault of poor journalism or those with an anti meat agenda.
But, if you do have evidence that saturated fat causes cancer, please share it. As someone who eats a lot if red meat, I would be curious to read it
I think with the exception of transfat, this can literally be said about everything. Science suggest correlations because all of this is multifaceted. Its no different than the stuff you say about refined carbs. Because one can consume lots of them and still become metabolically healthy.
Its why all diets produce similar results. The difference between all of these diets is minimal.
It could be said about everything, but it is usually the higher fat, and foods with higher saturated fats, that are demonized: red meat, eggs, full fat dairy, coconut or palm oil. It is marginally better now, but most people still wrongly think that red meat or coconut, foods that people have been eating for thousands of years, is bad for you.
Refined and highly processed foods, including many seed oils, are relatively new to our diet and have not shown themselves to be harmless, even in epidemiological studies. At best, they are neutral. At worst, frequent consumption appears to proceed or accompany poor health or diease.
LOL I think the pendulum has swung pretty hard the other way in that the only foods I see demonized these days are sugar, carbs, and “white foods”... totally ignoring that many of the examples provided contain as many calories from fat as from carbs... yet look how your own post ends...
My response was to correct some common misinformation. Saturated fats have never been proven to hurt health, and the only correlation it has to poor health is when preserved and highly processed (like bacon) or when consumed with highly refined and processed carbs (baked deserts). If you remove those factors, saturated fats are harmless.
On the other hand, refined and highly processed carbohydrates do not appear to be as harmless as saturated fat, as seen often in less reliable epidemiological studies and a few rcts.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2869506/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5793267/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5996878/
But if you have something that shows refined and highly processed carbs improve health, or are associated with better health, I would be interested to read it.
I have never denied that eating too many calories make you fat. I have said in the past that high fat and high carb together is a recipe for weight gain, but in what you are quoting me, I was talking about the health effects of foods and not eating too much (aka CI>CO) or comparing calories.
Who is arguing that refined and highly processed carbohydrates improve health or are associated with better health? There's a term for arguing against a claim that nobody is making . . .
If you think refined and highly processed carbs are not contributors to poor or neutral health, I assumed one would think it is a positive contributor. I cant see another option. My point is that I have not seen any benefits to health.
The only benefits to health for the typical person of refined and highly processed carbohydrates, that I know of, is that it has calories.
I have yet to see anyone on here advocate for a diet consisting only of highly processed carbs, so again you seem to be moving the goalposts. If someone ate nothing but highly processed carbs, would that be a bad thing? Yeah, probably. That can also be said about any other food as well though, so I don't understand the point you are trying to make. I can eat highly processed carbs in addition to a wide variety of other foods and still have a healthy diet. In fact, I honestly believe my diet now is healthier than if I was to completely exclude them because they make me happy, and my diet is more sustainable that way.
You are moving the goal posts: I did not say anyone ate a diet of all refined and highly processed carbs either.
This quote was in response to someone saying SFA causes cancer. It does not.
Then someone else stated their opinion that " the only foods they see being demonized these days are sugar, carbs and 'whites foods'". My response to that was that refined and highly processed carbs are not being demonized if they are not good for you. Many plant foods are quite healthful. R+HP carbs are not. I also said that sfas are still commonly demonized, although it is declining.
I doubt your diet is healthier including R+HP carbs, than if you replaced it with some other whole food. Your diet is probably healthy enough to carry you despite that. Just like my diet is hopefully healthy enough to carry the fact that I eat pepperoni or bacon on most days.
Few people have a perfectly healthy diet. Some food items are healthier than others. Including small amounts of theses healthy items is less likely to do damage than including large amounts of those foods in a diet. We hedge our bets based on what we know or believe is true in nutrition science, and our own personal and health experience.
I already have plenty of whole foods in my diet. I like to have variety. I don't want to get bored with my diet or feel restricted. It is good for my mental health to be happy with what I eat, and positive mental health is a huge part of overall health. I am extremely active and do plenty of strength training and kickboxing and because of that I feel like I can enjoy all sorts of foods. It was nice of you to point out that my diet could be healthier, but I am going to do my own thing. Thanks.
To add, once a person meets their nutritional goals, adding even more whole foods wont give you extra credit. And on top of that, the psychology battles are just as important for compliance and to prevent binging.
I don't think this can be emphasized enough. While we should be working towards a balanced, nutrient dense way of eating, there also needs to be a balance of how food fits into our lives, beyond micros/macros. While I eat a fairly 'healthy' diet, I also eat in a way that allows me to enjoy social events, vacations etc, where I can enjoy the food offered/available, without feeling guilt or stressing out that I'm eating 'forbidden' food. I've also learned how to eat those foods that I like, purely because I enjoy them, in a way that still fits within my weight and health management goals etc.
6 -
janejellyroll wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »Science has also found that a diet high in saturated fat is directly related to higher incidence of colon cancer, and that high consumption of red meat plays a large role. As someone with a high risk based on family history I would never in my life consider keto. It is not the right path for everyone.
I'm afraid that this is not correct.
Processed meats like bacon are found to to correlate with a 20% increased risk of colon cancer, which means that the risk rises from 5 to 6%.
A diet high is saturated fat has NOT been found to cause colon cancer, nor does it correlate to increased risk. The meat preservatives appear to be the problem, and not the meat. Saying that saturated fat is the problem is incorrect, but it is mainly the fault of poor journalism or those with an anti meat agenda.
But, if you do have evidence that saturated fat causes cancer, please share it. As someone who eats a lot if red meat, I would be curious to read it
I think with the exception of transfat, this can literally be said about everything. Science suggest correlations because all of this is multifaceted. Its no different than the stuff you say about refined carbs. Because one can consume lots of them and still become metabolically healthy.
Its why all diets produce similar results. The difference between all of these diets is minimal.
It could be said about everything, but it is usually the higher fat, and foods with higher saturated fats, that are demonized: red meat, eggs, full fat dairy, coconut or palm oil. It is marginally better now, but most people still wrongly think that red meat or coconut, foods that people have been eating for thousands of years, is bad for you.
Refined and highly processed foods, including many seed oils, are relatively new to our diet and have not shown themselves to be harmless, even in epidemiological studies. At best, they are neutral. At worst, frequent consumption appears to proceed or accompany poor health or diease.
LOL I think the pendulum has swung pretty hard the other way in that the only foods I see demonized these days are sugar, carbs, and “white foods”... totally ignoring that many of the examples provided contain as many calories from fat as from carbs... yet look how your own post ends...
My response was to correct some common misinformation. Saturated fats have never been proven to hurt health, and the only correlation it has to poor health is when preserved and highly processed (like bacon) or when consumed with highly refined and processed carbs (baked deserts). If you remove those factors, saturated fats are harmless.
On the other hand, refined and highly processed carbohydrates do not appear to be as harmless as saturated fat, as seen often in less reliable epidemiological studies and a few rcts.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2869506/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5793267/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5996878/
But if you have something that shows refined and highly processed carbs improve health, or are associated with better health, I would be interested to read it.
I have never denied that eating too many calories make you fat. I have said in the past that high fat and high carb together is a recipe for weight gain, but in what you are quoting me, I was talking about the health effects of foods and not eating too much (aka CI>CO) or comparing calories.
Who is arguing that refined and highly processed carbohydrates improve health or are associated with better health? There's a term for arguing against a claim that nobody is making . . .
If you think refined and highly processed carbs are not contributors to poor or neutral health, I assumed one would think it is a positive contributor. I cant see another option. My point is that I have not seen any benefits to health.
The only benefits to health for the typical person of refined and highly processed carbohydrates, that I know of, is that it has calories.
I have yet to see anyone on here advocate for a diet consisting only of highly processed carbs, so again you seem to be moving the goalposts. If someone ate nothing but highly processed carbs, would that be a bad thing? Yeah, probably. That can also be said about any other food as well though, so I don't understand the point you are trying to make. I can eat highly processed carbs in addition to a wide variety of other foods and still have a healthy diet. In fact, I honestly believe my diet now is healthier than if I was to completely exclude them because they make me happy, and my diet is more sustainable that way.
You are moving the goal posts: I did not say anyone ate a diet of all refined and highly processed carbs either.
This quote was in response to someone saying SFA causes cancer. It does not.
Then someone else stated their opinion that " the only foods they see being demonized these days are sugar, carbs and 'whites foods'". My response to that was that refined and highly processed carbs are not being demonized if they are not good for you. Many plant foods are quite healthful. R+HP carbs are not. I also said that sfas are still commonly demonized, although it is declining.
I doubt your diet is healthier including R+HP carbs, than if you replaced it with some other whole food. Your diet is probably healthy enough to carry you despite that. Just like my diet is hopefully healthy enough to carry the fact that I eat pepperoni or bacon on most days.
Few people have a perfectly healthy diet. Some food items are healthier than others. Including small amounts of theses healthy items is less likely to do damage than including large amounts of those foods in a diet. We hedge our bets based on what we know or believe is true in nutrition science, and our own personal and health experience.
I already have plenty of whole foods in my diet. I like to have variety. I don't want to get bored with my diet or feel restricted. It is good for my mental health to be happy with what I eat, and positive mental health is a huge part of overall health. I am extremely active and do plenty of strength training and kickboxing and because of that I feel like I can enjoy all sorts of foods. It was nice of you to point out that my diet could be healthier, but I am going to do my own thing. Thanks.
To add, once a person meets their nutritional goals, adding even more whole foods wont give you extra credit. And on top of that, the psychology battles are just as important for compliance and to prevent binging.
I don't think this can be emphasized enough. While we should be working towards a balanced, nutrient dense way of eating, there also needs to be a balance of how food fits into our lives, beyond micros/macros. While I eat a fairly 'healthy' diet, I also eat in a way that allows me to enjoy social events, vacations etc, where I can enjoy the food offered/available, without feeling guilt or stressing out that I'm eating 'forbidden' food. I've also learned how to eat those foods that I like, purely because I enjoy them, in a way that still fits within my weight and health management goals etc.
Yeah, to me the question isn't "Can I be healthy eating exclusively refined and processed carbohydrates?" (because the answer is no and also because nobody is trying to do this), it's "Can a healthy diet include some refined and processed carbohydrates?"
For some reason, that second question always makes some people jump to answer the first and they assume you want to live on handfuls of white sugar chased with Mountain Dew.9 -
janejellyroll wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »Science has also found that a diet high in saturated fat is directly related to higher incidence of colon cancer, and that high consumption of red meat plays a large role. As someone with a high risk based on family history I would never in my life consider keto. It is not the right path for everyone.
I'm afraid that this is not correct.
Processed meats like bacon are found to to correlate with a 20% increased risk of colon cancer, which means that the risk rises from 5 to 6%.
A diet high is saturated fat has NOT been found to cause colon cancer, nor does it correlate to increased risk. The meat preservatives appear to be the problem, and not the meat. Saying that saturated fat is the problem is incorrect, but it is mainly the fault of poor journalism or those with an anti meat agenda.
But, if you do have evidence that saturated fat causes cancer, please share it. As someone who eats a lot if red meat, I would be curious to read it
I think with the exception of transfat, this can literally be said about everything. Science suggest correlations because all of this is multifaceted. Its no different than the stuff you say about refined carbs. Because one can consume lots of them and still become metabolically healthy.
Its why all diets produce similar results. The difference between all of these diets is minimal.
It could be said about everything, but it is usually the higher fat, and foods with higher saturated fats, that are demonized: red meat, eggs, full fat dairy, coconut or palm oil. It is marginally better now, but most people still wrongly think that red meat or coconut, foods that people have been eating for thousands of years, is bad for you.
Refined and highly processed foods, including many seed oils, are relatively new to our diet and have not shown themselves to be harmless, even in epidemiological studies. At best, they are neutral. At worst, frequent consumption appears to proceed or accompany poor health or diease.
LOL I think the pendulum has swung pretty hard the other way in that the only foods I see demonized these days are sugar, carbs, and “white foods”... totally ignoring that many of the examples provided contain as many calories from fat as from carbs... yet look how your own post ends...
My response was to correct some common misinformation. Saturated fats have never been proven to hurt health, and the only correlation it has to poor health is when preserved and highly processed (like bacon) or when consumed with highly refined and processed carbs (baked deserts). If you remove those factors, saturated fats are harmless.
On the other hand, refined and highly processed carbohydrates do not appear to be as harmless as saturated fat, as seen often in less reliable epidemiological studies and a few rcts.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2869506/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5793267/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5996878/
But if you have something that shows refined and highly processed carbs improve health, or are associated with better health, I would be interested to read it.
I have never denied that eating too many calories make you fat. I have said in the past that high fat and high carb together is a recipe for weight gain, but in what you are quoting me, I was talking about the health effects of foods and not eating too much (aka CI>CO) or comparing calories.
Who is arguing that refined and highly processed carbohydrates improve health or are associated with better health? There's a term for arguing against a claim that nobody is making . . .
If you think refined and highly processed carbs are not contributors to poor or neutral health, I assumed one would think it is a positive contributor. I cant see another option. My point is that I have not seen any benefits to health.
The only benefits to health for the typical person of refined and highly processed carbohydrates, that I know of, is that it has calories.
I have yet to see anyone on here advocate for a diet consisting only of highly processed carbs, so again you seem to be moving the goalposts. If someone ate nothing but highly processed carbs, would that be a bad thing? Yeah, probably. That can also be said about any other food as well though, so I don't understand the point you are trying to make. I can eat highly processed carbs in addition to a wide variety of other foods and still have a healthy diet. In fact, I honestly believe my diet now is healthier than if I was to completely exclude them because they make me happy, and my diet is more sustainable that way.
You are moving the goal posts: I did not say anyone ate a diet of all refined and highly processed carbs either.
This quote was in response to someone saying SFA causes cancer. It does not.
Then someone else stated their opinion that " the only foods they see being demonized these days are sugar, carbs and 'whites foods'". My response to that was that refined and highly processed carbs are not being demonized if they are not good for you. Many plant foods are quite healthful. R+HP carbs are not. I also said that sfas are still commonly demonized, although it is declining.
I doubt your diet is healthier including R+HP carbs, than if you replaced it with some other whole food. Your diet is probably healthy enough to carry you despite that. Just like my diet is hopefully healthy enough to carry the fact that I eat pepperoni or bacon on most days.
Few people have a perfectly healthy diet. Some food items are healthier than others. Including small amounts of theses healthy items is less likely to do damage than including large amounts of those foods in a diet. We hedge our bets based on what we know or believe is true in nutrition science, and our own personal and health experience.
That person never stated it caused cancer. They said," Science has also found that a diet high in saturated fat is directly related to higher incidence of colon cancer, and that high consumption of red meat plays a large role."
The consumption of processed red meats is correlated with a 20-30% increase in colon cancer. That is what the current evidence suggests. So they were kind of wrong. It's not SFA, but processed meats.
Again, highly processed "foods" are not good for you, regardless if it's carbs or fat.
I did mistate what they said. My mistake.
But what they said is wrong. Not just kind of wrong.
It is like if one said carbs play a large role in *some health disorder* because a high intake of soda or juice correlates with increased risk of said health disorder.
It isnt the red meat or sfa that increases colon cancer risk. It is probably the preservatives.
Another analogy : it isnt the glass that raises IR risk, it's the soda.
I agree that highly processed fats are not good for you. I think most should limit their trans fats and many seed oils as much as possible.
I also think many people can get away with eating refined and highly processed foods when others will be ill. They are lucky. I envy them.1 -
WinoGelato wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »Science has also found that a diet high in saturated fat is directly related to higher incidence of colon cancer, and that high consumption of red meat plays a large role. As someone with a high risk based on family history I would never in my life consider keto. It is not the right path for everyone.
I'm afraid that this is not correct.
Processed meats like bacon are found to to correlate with a 20% increased risk of colon cancer, which means that the risk rises from 5 to 6%.
A diet high is saturated fat has NOT been found to cause colon cancer, nor does it correlate to increased risk. The meat preservatives appear to be the problem, and not the meat. Saying that saturated fat is the problem is incorrect, but it is mainly the fault of poor journalism or those with an anti meat agenda.
But, if you do have evidence that saturated fat causes cancer, please share it. As someone who eats a lot if red meat, I would be curious to read it
I think with the exception of transfat, this can literally be said about everything. Science suggest correlations because all of this is multifaceted. Its no different than the stuff you say about refined carbs. Because one can consume lots of them and still become metabolically healthy.
Its why all diets produce similar results. The difference between all of these diets is minimal.
It could be said about everything, but it is usually the higher fat, and foods with higher saturated fats, that are demonized: red meat, eggs, full fat dairy, coconut or palm oil. It is marginally better now, but most people still wrongly think that red meat or coconut, foods that people have been eating for thousands of years, is bad for you.
Refined and highly processed foods, including many seed oils, are relatively new to our diet and have not shown themselves to be harmless, even in epidemiological studies. At best, they are neutral. At worst, frequent consumption appears to proceed or accompany poor health or diease.
LOL I think the pendulum has swung pretty hard the other way in that the only foods I see demonized these days are sugar, carbs, and “white foods”... totally ignoring that many of the examples provided contain as many calories from fat as from carbs... yet look how your own post ends...
My response was to correct some common misinformation. Saturated fats have never been proven to hurt health, and the only correlation it has to poor health is when preserved and highly processed (like bacon) or when consumed with highly refined and processed carbs (baked deserts). If you remove those factors, saturated fats are harmless.
On the other hand, refined and highly processed carbohydrates do not appear to be as harmless as saturated fat, as seen often in less reliable epidemiological studies and a few rcts.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2869506/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5793267/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5996878/
But if you have something that shows refined and highly processed carbs improve health, or are associated with better health, I would be interested to read it.
I have never denied that eating too many calories make you fat. I have said in the past that high fat and high carb together is a recipe for weight gain, but in what you are quoting me, I was talking about the health effects of foods and not eating too much (aka CI>CO) or comparing calories.
I’m not making a claim that refined and processed carbs improve health. I don’t believe any food in isolation should be demonized, nor do I believe a particular food or group of food have widespread health benefits for the average person. I think a satiating, varied and balanced nutrient dense diet that allows for treats in moderation is what most people should strive for. The specific macro split and what your own personal definition of “treats” and “moderation” can vary from person to person.
I was specifically pointing out the irony of you saying that people demonize higher fat foods, while following it up with a sweeping generalization of negativity toward processed carbs...
Some foods are better than others, nutritionally speaking. Refined and highly processed carbohydrates are not very nutritious - the added vitamins and minerals are somewhat. Stating that is not demonizing . Its more of a statement of widely accepted knowledge.
When you say it is best to avoid or limit them, that in itself is demonizing them.
I also recommend avoiding or limiting car accidents, debt, drug or alcohol addiction and bad relationships.6 -
estherdragonbat wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »Science has also found that a diet high in saturated fat is directly related to higher incidence of colon cancer, and that high consumption of red meat plays a large role. As someone with a high risk based on family history I would never in my life consider keto. It is not the right path for everyone.
I'm afraid that this is not correct.
Processed meats like bacon are found to to correlate with a 20% increased risk of colon cancer, which means that the risk rises from 5 to 6%.
A diet high is saturated fat has NOT been found to cause colon cancer, nor does it correlate to increased risk. The meat preservatives appear to be the problem, and not the meat. Saying that saturated fat is the problem is incorrect, but it is mainly the fault of poor journalism or those with an anti meat agenda.
But, if you do have evidence that saturated fat causes cancer, please share it. As someone who eats a lot if red meat, I would be curious to read it
I think with the exception of transfat, this can literally be said about everything. Science suggest correlations because all of this is multifaceted. Its no different than the stuff you say about refined carbs. Because one can consume lots of them and still become metabolically healthy.
Its why all diets produce similar results. The difference between all of these diets is minimal.
It could be said about everything, but it is usually the higher fat, and foods with higher saturated fats, that are demonized: red meat, eggs, full fat dairy, coconut or palm oil. It is marginally better now, but most people still wrongly think that red meat or coconut, foods that people have been eating for thousands of years, is bad for you.
Refined and highly processed foods, including many seed oils, are relatively new to our diet and have not shown themselves to be harmless, even in epidemiological studies. At best, they are neutral. At worst, frequent consumption appears to proceed or accompany poor health or diease.
LOL I think the pendulum has swung pretty hard the other way in that the only foods I see demonized these days are sugar, carbs, and “white foods”... totally ignoring that many of the examples provided contain as many calories from fat as from carbs... yet look how your own post ends...
My response was to correct some common misinformation. Saturated fats have never been proven to hurt health, and the only correlation it has to poor health is when preserved and highly processed (like bacon) or when consumed with highly refined and processed carbs (baked deserts). If you remove those factors, saturated fats are harmless.
On the other hand, refined and highly processed carbohydrates do not appear to be as harmless as saturated fat, as seen often in less reliable epidemiological studies and a few rcts.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2869506/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5793267/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5996878/
But if you have something that shows refined and highly processed carbs improve health, or are associated with better health, I would be interested to read it.
I have never denied that eating too many calories make you fat. I have said in the past that high fat and high carb together is a recipe for weight gain, but in what you are quoting me, I was talking about the health effects of foods and not eating too much (aka CI>CO) or comparing calories.
Who is arguing that refined and highly processed carbohydrates improve health or are associated with better health? There's a term for arguing against a claim that nobody is making . . .
If you think refined and highly processed carbs are not contributors to poor or neutral health, I assumed one would think it is a positive contributor. I cant see another option. My point is that I have not seen any benefits to health.
The only benefits to health for the typical person of refined and highly processed carbohydrates, that I know of, is that it has calories.
Some of them (Fiber One bars, I'm looking at you!) are a good source of dietary fiber.
If you feel you need fibre, or have a carb heavy diet, it might be beneficial.
Fibre is a non essential nutrient or whom some people may benefit. I tend to skip it in favor of better digestive health symptoms.14 -
janejellyroll wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »Science has also found that a diet high in saturated fat is directly related to higher incidence of colon cancer, and that high consumption of red meat plays a large role. As someone with a high risk based on family history I would never in my life consider keto. It is not the right path for everyone.
I'm afraid that this is not correct.
Processed meats like bacon are found to to correlate with a 20% increased risk of colon cancer, which means that the risk rises from 5 to 6%.
A diet high is saturated fat has NOT been found to cause colon cancer, nor does it correlate to increased risk. The meat preservatives appear to be the problem, and not the meat. Saying that saturated fat is the problem is incorrect, but it is mainly the fault of poor journalism or those with an anti meat agenda.
But, if you do have evidence that saturated fat causes cancer, please share it. As someone who eats a lot if red meat, I would be curious to read it
I think with the exception of transfat, this can literally be said about everything. Science suggest correlations because all of this is multifaceted. Its no different than the stuff you say about refined carbs. Because one can consume lots of them and still become metabolically healthy.
Its why all diets produce similar results. The difference between all of these diets is minimal.
It could be said about everything, but it is usually the higher fat, and foods with higher saturated fats, that are demonized: red meat, eggs, full fat dairy, coconut or palm oil. It is marginally better now, but most people still wrongly think that red meat or coconut, foods that people have been eating for thousands of years, is bad for you.
Refined and highly processed foods, including many seed oils, are relatively new to our diet and have not shown themselves to be harmless, even in epidemiological studies. At best, they are neutral. At worst, frequent consumption appears to proceed or accompany poor health or diease.
LOL I think the pendulum has swung pretty hard the other way in that the only foods I see demonized these days are sugar, carbs, and “white foods”... totally ignoring that many of the examples provided contain as many calories from fat as from carbs... yet look how your own post ends...
My response was to correct some common misinformation. Saturated fats have never been proven to hurt health, and the only correlation it has to poor health is when preserved and highly processed (like bacon) or when consumed with highly refined and processed carbs (baked deserts). If you remove those factors, saturated fats are harmless.
On the other hand, refined and highly processed carbohydrates do not appear to be as harmless as saturated fat, as seen often in less reliable epidemiological studies and a few rcts.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2869506/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5793267/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5996878/
But if you have something that shows refined and highly processed carbs improve health, or are associated with better health, I would be interested to read it.
I have never denied that eating too many calories make you fat. I have said in the past that high fat and high carb together is a recipe for weight gain, but in what you are quoting me, I was talking about the health effects of foods and not eating too much (aka CI>CO) or comparing calories.
Who is arguing that refined and highly processed carbohydrates improve health or are associated with better health? There's a term for arguing against a claim that nobody is making . . .
If you think refined and highly processed carbs are not contributors to poor or neutral health, I assumed one would think it is a positive contributor. I cant see another option. My point is that I have not seen any benefits to health.
The only benefits to health for the typical person of refined and highly processed carbohydrates, that I know of, is that it has calories.
I have yet to see anyone on here advocate for a diet consisting only of highly processed carbs, so again you seem to be moving the goalposts. If someone ate nothing but highly processed carbs, would that be a bad thing? Yeah, probably. That can also be said about any other food as well though, so I don't understand the point you are trying to make. I can eat highly processed carbs in addition to a wide variety of other foods and still have a healthy diet. In fact, I honestly believe my diet now is healthier than if I was to completely exclude them because they make me happy, and my diet is more sustainable that way.
You are moving the goal posts: I did not say anyone ate a diet of all refined and highly processed carbs either.
This quote was in response to someone saying SFA causes cancer. It does not.
Then someone else stated their opinion that " the only foods they see being demonized these days are sugar, carbs and 'whites foods'". My response to that was that refined and highly processed carbs are not being demonized if they are not good for you. Many plant foods are quite healthful. R+HP carbs are not. I also said that sfas are still commonly demonized, although it is declining.
I doubt your diet is healthier including R+HP carbs, than if you replaced it with some other whole food. Your diet is probably healthy enough to carry you despite that. Just like my diet is hopefully healthy enough to carry the fact that I eat pepperoni or bacon on most days.
Few people have a perfectly healthy diet. Some food items are healthier than others. Including small amounts of theses healthy items is less likely to do damage than including large amounts of those foods in a diet. We hedge our bets based on what we know or believe is true in nutrition science, and our own personal and health experience.
I already have plenty of whole foods in my diet. I like to have variety. I don't want to get bored with my diet or feel restricted. It is good for my mental health to be happy with what I eat, and positive mental health is a huge part of overall health. I am extremely active and do plenty of strength training and kickboxing and because of that I feel like I can enjoy all sorts of foods. It was nice of you to point out that my diet could be healthier, but I am going to do my own thing. Thanks.
Just about everyone's diet could be healthier, my own included. I am glad your diet makes you happy and assists in your mental health. That isn't enough for everyone though.
I really enjoy baking, candy and gluten but they all negatively impact my health. You are lucky if you can include all foods that make you happy into your diet, but happiness =/= a healthy body, granted it may correlate for some.3 -
janejellyroll wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »Science has also found that a diet high in saturated fat is directly related to higher incidence of colon cancer, and that high consumption of red meat plays a large role. As someone with a high risk based on family history I would never in my life consider keto. It is not the right path for everyone.
I'm afraid that this is not correct.
Processed meats like bacon are found to to correlate with a 20% increased risk of colon cancer, which means that the risk rises from 5 to 6%.
A diet high is saturated fat has NOT been found to cause colon cancer, nor does it correlate to increased risk. The meat preservatives appear to be the problem, and not the meat. Saying that saturated fat is the problem is incorrect, but it is mainly the fault of poor journalism or those with an anti meat agenda.
But, if you do have evidence that saturated fat causes cancer, please share it. As someone who eats a lot if red meat, I would be curious to read it
I think with the exception of transfat, this can literally be said about everything. Science suggest correlations because all of this is multifaceted. Its no different than the stuff you say about refined carbs. Because one can consume lots of them and still become metabolically healthy.
Its why all diets produce similar results. The difference between all of these diets is minimal.
It could be said about everything, but it is usually the higher fat, and foods with higher saturated fats, that are demonized: red meat, eggs, full fat dairy, coconut or palm oil. It is marginally better now, but most people still wrongly think that red meat or coconut, foods that people have been eating for thousands of years, is bad for you.
Refined and highly processed foods, including many seed oils, are relatively new to our diet and have not shown themselves to be harmless, even in epidemiological studies. At best, they are neutral. At worst, frequent consumption appears to proceed or accompany poor health or diease.
LOL I think the pendulum has swung pretty hard the other way in that the only foods I see demonized these days are sugar, carbs, and “white foods”... totally ignoring that many of the examples provided contain as many calories from fat as from carbs... yet look how your own post ends...
My response was to correct some common misinformation. Saturated fats have never been proven to hurt health, and the only correlation it has to poor health is when preserved and highly processed (like bacon) or when consumed with highly refined and processed carbs (baked deserts). If you remove those factors, saturated fats are harmless.
On the other hand, refined and highly processed carbohydrates do not appear to be as harmless as saturated fat, as seen often in less reliable epidemiological studies and a few rcts.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2869506/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5793267/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5996878/
But if you have something that shows refined and highly processed carbs improve health, or are associated with better health, I would be interested to read it.
I have never denied that eating too many calories make you fat. I have said in the past that high fat and high carb together is a recipe for weight gain, but in what you are quoting me, I was talking about the health effects of foods and not eating too much (aka CI>CO) or comparing calories.
Who is arguing that refined and highly processed carbohydrates improve health or are associated with better health? There's a term for arguing against a claim that nobody is making . . .
If you think refined and highly processed carbs are not contributors to poor or neutral health, I assumed one would think it is a positive contributor. I cant see another option. My point is that I have not seen any benefits to health.
The only benefits to health for the typical person of refined and highly processed carbohydrates, that I know of, is that it has calories.
I have yet to see anyone on here advocate for a diet consisting only of highly processed carbs, so again you seem to be moving the goalposts. If someone ate nothing but highly processed carbs, would that be a bad thing? Yeah, probably. That can also be said about any other food as well though, so I don't understand the point you are trying to make. I can eat highly processed carbs in addition to a wide variety of other foods and still have a healthy diet. In fact, I honestly believe my diet now is healthier than if I was to completely exclude them because they make me happy, and my diet is more sustainable that way.
You are moving the goal posts: I did not say anyone ate a diet of all refined and highly processed carbs either.
This quote was in response to someone saying SFA causes cancer. It does not.
Then someone else stated their opinion that " the only foods they see being demonized these days are sugar, carbs and 'whites foods'". My response to that was that refined and highly processed carbs are not being demonized if they are not good for you. Many plant foods are quite healthful. R+HP carbs are not. I also said that sfas are still commonly demonized, although it is declining.
I doubt your diet is healthier including R+HP carbs, than if you replaced it with some other whole food. Your diet is probably healthy enough to carry you despite that. Just like my diet is hopefully healthy enough to carry the fact that I eat pepperoni or bacon on most days.
Few people have a perfectly healthy diet. Some food items are healthier than others. Including small amounts of theses healthy items is less likely to do damage than including large amounts of those foods in a diet. We hedge our bets based on what we know or believe is true in nutrition science, and our own personal and health experience.
I already have plenty of whole foods in my diet. I like to have variety. I don't want to get bored with my diet or feel restricted. It is good for my mental health to be happy with what I eat, and positive mental health is a huge part of overall health. I am extremely active and do plenty of strength training and kickboxing and because of that I feel like I can enjoy all sorts of foods. It was nice of you to point out that my diet could be healthier, but I am going to do my own thing. Thanks.
I just love the irony of a person who eats virtually no fruits or vegetables lecturing people who eat all foods including some processed foods in moderation about what a healthy diet is.25 -
WinoGelato wrote: »Science has also found that a diet high in saturated fat is directly related to higher incidence of colon cancer, and that high consumption of red meat plays a large role. As someone with a high risk based on family history I would never in my life consider keto. It is not the right path for everyone.
I'm afraid that this is not correct.
Processed meats like bacon are found to to correlate with a 20% increased risk of colon cancer, which means that the risk rises from 5 to 6%.
A diet high is saturated fat has NOT been found to cause colon cancer, nor does it correlate to increased risk. The meat preservatives appear to be the problem, and not the meat. Saying that saturated fat is the problem is incorrect, but it is mainly the fault of poor journalism or those with an anti meat agenda.
But, if you do have evidence that saturated fat causes cancer, please share it. As someone who eats a lot if red meat, I would be curious to read it
I think with the exception of transfat, this can literally be said about everything. Science suggest correlations because all of this is multifaceted. Its no different than the stuff you say about refined carbs. Because one can consume lots of them and still become metabolically healthy.
Its why all diets produce similar results. The difference between all of these diets is minimal.
It could be said about everything, but it is usually the higher fat, and foods with higher saturated fats, that are demonized: red meat, eggs, full fat dairy, coconut or palm oil. It is marginally better now, but most people still wrongly think that red meat or coconut, foods that people have been eating for thousands of years, is bad for you.
Refined and highly processed foods, including many seed oils, are relatively new to our diet and have not shown themselves to be harmless, even in epidemiological studies. At best, they are neutral. At worst, frequent consumption appears to proceed or accompany poor health or diease.
LOL I think the pendulum has swung pretty hard the other way in that the only foods I see demonized these days are sugar, carbs, and “white foods”... totally ignoring that many of the examples provided contain as many calories from fat as from carbs... yet look how your own post ends...
My response was to correct some common misinformation. Saturated fats have never been proven to hurt health, and the only correlation it has to poor health is when preserved and highly processed (like bacon) or when consumed with highly refined and processed carbs (baked deserts). If you remove those factors, saturated fats are harmless.
On the other hand, refined and highly processed carbohydrates do not appear to be as harmless as saturated fat, as seen often in less reliable epidemiological studies and a few rcts.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2869506/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5793267/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5996878/
But if you have something that shows refined and highly processed carbs improve health, or are associated with better health, I would be interested to read it.
I have never denied that eating too many calories make you fat. I have said in the past that high fat and high carb together is a recipe for weight gain, but in what you are quoting me, I was talking about the health effects of foods and not eating too much (aka CI>CO) or comparing calories.
Do you realize that first link you posted goes against a lot of what you believe, especially as you have dipped more into carnivore?
My personal favorite:On the other hand, recent clinical trial and epidemiologic evidence suggests that a diet with moderately restricted carbohydrate intake but rich in vegetable fat and vegetable protein improves blood lipid profile (10) and is associated with lower risk of IHD in the long term (11). Benefits of the plant-based, low-carbohydrate diet are likely to stem from higher intake of polyunsaturated fats, fiber, and micronutrients as well as the reduced GL in the dietary pattern.
Clearly, diets high in either saturated fats or refined carbohydrates are not suitable for IHD prevention. However, refined carbohydrates are likely to cause even greater metabolic damage than saturated fat in a predominantly sedentary and overweight population. Although intake of saturated fat should remain at a relatively low amount and partially hydrogenated fats should be eliminated, a singular focus on reduction of total and saturated fat can be counterproductive because dietary fat is typically replaced by refined carbohydrate, as has been seen over the past several decades. In this era of widespread obesity and insulin resistance, the time has come to shift the focus of the diet-heart paradigm away from restricted fat intake and toward reduced consumption of refined carbohydrates.
So essentially, reduce and replaced processed carbs with whole carbs or plant based fats. And focus on PLANT BASED proteins, fats and fiber.
So no one would argue that processed carbs or processed fat is beneficial. Focus on whole foods is going to yield much better results. Also, modulating carbs based on adherence, personal satiety cues, and athletic performance needs.
ETA:
And from your second link:In summary, replacing dietary intake of SFA with refined starches has little effect on the risk of CHD. However, consumption of added sugars, especially of SSBs, may have a stronger association with risk than either SFA or refined starches. When SFA are replaced with whole grains, risk of CHD is decreased. However, there is still uncertainty regarding the absolute and relative importance of these different components of the diet. A growing weight of authoritative opinion is emerging that supports these conclusions [29,30,31].
How about that. Replacing SFA with whole grains (from cereals) does reduce the risk of CHD.
Essentially, while the correlations of SFA and CHD are low or not founded, you still see improved health when replacing SFA with other nutrients like PUFAs or whole grains.
Meh, it's pretty tough to find a link that supports everything I have experienced for myself. The links show what I intended: refined and highly processed carbs are foods best avoided or limited.
I have never denied that increasing plants and pufas happens to lower ldl, nor that past (poor) studies associated that with reduced cvd risk due to lowering of ldl (presuming ldl contributes to cvd). But I consider ldl to be the weakest of all associations to cvd risk, way behind HDL, triglycerides, crop, cac score and whether or not someone has hyperinsulinemia.
Pufas do lower ldl but that doesn't help CV health. Replacing sfa with whole grains does not lower risk of chd either - it only lowers ldl . You are conflating a weak association with causation.
Pufas also raise all cause mortality and raises your risk of developing cancer. I'll stick with more SFAs than recommended.
Plus the recommendation of a wfpb diet is over SAD. It is not shown that wfpb is better than wf-animal-based. I don't deny that wfpb can be healthy if supplemented properly, but it won't beat animal product heavy diets, nutritionally speaking.
Its amazing how you ignore what is written in favor of your own agenda. I literally copy and pasted what your cohert study suggested. The data suggested a 10-20% reduction in CHD disease when replacing SFA with whole grains. That is statistically significant. So adding more SFA does nothing to improve health. At best, its nuetral.
And it is amazing how you forget that correlation =/= causation.
You know that any number if factors can cause this reduced risk factor of 10-20% ( not cutting cases of CHD by 10-20% as you implied). Perhaps saturated fat is implicated because they slather butter on their bread. Who knows. Maybe they replaced spam and bread with salmon and wild rice.11 -
I have been reading recently that Keto is not a highly regarded diet according to WHO, but not particularly bad, but honestly I'm too lazy to find the links right now.
A more serious concern I read, is that KETO might cause complications if you have AFIB heart problems or Type 1 diabetes. So if those have anything to do with you, you might want to do a little extra research just to be safe.0 -
WinoGelato wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »Science has also found that a diet high in saturated fat is directly related to higher incidence of colon cancer, and that high consumption of red meat plays a large role. As someone with a high risk based on family history I would never in my life consider keto. It is not the right path for everyone.
I'm afraid that this is not correct.
Processed meats like bacon are found to to correlate with a 20% increased risk of colon cancer, which means that the risk rises from 5 to 6%.
A diet high is saturated fat has NOT been found to cause colon cancer, nor does it correlate to increased risk. The meat preservatives appear to be the problem, and not the meat. Saying that saturated fat is the problem is incorrect, but it is mainly the fault of poor journalism or those with an anti meat agenda.
But, if you do have evidence that saturated fat causes cancer, please share it. As someone who eats a lot if red meat, I would be curious to read it
I think with the exception of transfat, this can literally be said about everything. Science suggest correlations because all of this is multifaceted. Its no different than the stuff you say about refined carbs. Because one can consume lots of them and still become metabolically healthy.
Its why all diets produce similar results. The difference between all of these diets is minimal.
It could be said about everything, but it is usually the higher fat, and foods with higher saturated fats, that are demonized: red meat, eggs, full fat dairy, coconut or palm oil. It is marginally better now, but most people still wrongly think that red meat or coconut, foods that people have been eating for thousands of years, is bad for you.
Refined and highly processed foods, including many seed oils, are relatively new to our diet and have not shown themselves to be harmless, even in epidemiological studies. At best, they are neutral. At worst, frequent consumption appears to proceed or accompany poor health or diease.
LOL I think the pendulum has swung pretty hard the other way in that the only foods I see demonized these days are sugar, carbs, and “white foods”... totally ignoring that many of the examples provided contain as many calories from fat as from carbs... yet look how your own post ends...
My response was to correct some common misinformation. Saturated fats have never been proven to hurt health, and the only correlation it has to poor health is when preserved and highly processed (like bacon) or when consumed with highly refined and processed carbs (baked deserts). If you remove those factors, saturated fats are harmless.
On the other hand, refined and highly processed carbohydrates do not appear to be as harmless as saturated fat, as seen often in less reliable epidemiological studies and a few rcts.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2869506/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5793267/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5996878/
But if you have something that shows refined and highly processed carbs improve health, or are associated with better health, I would be interested to read it.
I have never denied that eating too many calories make you fat. I have said in the past that high fat and high carb together is a recipe for weight gain, but in what you are quoting me, I was talking about the health effects of foods and not eating too much (aka CI>CO) or comparing calories.
Who is arguing that refined and highly processed carbohydrates improve health or are associated with better health? There's a term for arguing against a claim that nobody is making . . .
If you think refined and highly processed carbs are not contributors to poor or neutral health, I assumed one would think it is a positive contributor. I cant see another option. My point is that I have not seen any benefits to health.
The only benefits to health for the typical person of refined and highly processed carbohydrates, that I know of, is that it has calories.
I have yet to see anyone on here advocate for a diet consisting only of highly processed carbs, so again you seem to be moving the goalposts. If someone ate nothing but highly processed carbs, would that be a bad thing? Yeah, probably. That can also be said about any other food as well though, so I don't understand the point you are trying to make. I can eat highly processed carbs in addition to a wide variety of other foods and still have a healthy diet. In fact, I honestly believe my diet now is healthier than if I was to completely exclude them because they make me happy, and my diet is more sustainable that way.
You are moving the goal posts: I did not say anyone ate a diet of all refined and highly processed carbs either.
This quote was in response to someone saying SFA causes cancer. It does not.
Then someone else stated their opinion that " the only foods they see being demonized these days are sugar, carbs and 'whites foods'". My response to that was that refined and highly processed carbs are not being demonized if they are not good for you. Many plant foods are quite healthful. R+HP carbs are not. I also said that sfas are still commonly demonized, although it is declining.
I doubt your diet is healthier including R+HP carbs, than if you replaced it with some other whole food. Your diet is probably healthy enough to carry you despite that. Just like my diet is hopefully healthy enough to carry the fact that I eat pepperoni or bacon on most days.
Few people have a perfectly healthy diet. Some food items are healthier than others. Including small amounts of theses healthy items is less likely to do damage than including large amounts of those foods in a diet. We hedge our bets based on what we know or believe is true in nutrition science, and our own personal and health experience.
I already have plenty of whole foods in my diet. I like to have variety. I don't want to get bored with my diet or feel restricted. It is good for my mental health to be happy with what I eat, and positive mental health is a huge part of overall health. I am extremely active and do plenty of strength training and kickboxing and because of that I feel like I can enjoy all sorts of foods. It was nice of you to point out that my diet could be healthier, but I am going to do my own thing. Thanks.
I just love the irony of a person who eats virtually no fruits or vegetables lecturing people who eat all foods including some processed foods in moderation about what a healthy diet is.
Because it is proven that a diet of moderation in all things, including processed foods, is the healthiest diet for all? Or even some? Funnily enough, that is more dogma than anything.
I'm sure some people make moderation work great, but is that because of the diet or in spite of the diet? It's more popular than keto, I'll give you that...
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