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why do people think you can be healthy at every size?
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Plus, being overweight is a visible failing that everyone can see and judge you for. Having a stressful job, a dangerous hobby, poor posture at work, failing to get enough sleep, taking drugs, any number of other things have similar or worse health risks; but they're not visible, so it's harder for random people in the street to shame you for them. Being fat is an equal-opportunities bullying-fest.
I say 'bullying' with good reason. Because continually being told you're undisciplined, shameful, unattractive, and generally unworthy is also a health risk. It's funny how the same people who used to chide me about my weight 'for my own good' weren't interested in supporting me during the episodes of depression that actually threatened my life.13 -
The idea that health is really what matters comes in when the activity is seen as not self-punishing enough, perhaps, or indulgence, not toughness.
Get by on 4 hours of sleep regularly, have a stressful job, pull all-nighters, pound out the last 10 miles of a marathon on an injured knee -- toughness. (I used to do all these but the last regularly, and mostly got praise or admiration for it, and even now I have trouble not seeing a virtue in sacrificing self care for such things, not sacrificing sleep first and feeling proud that I don't need to sleep that much, in my mind -- that's kind of messed up, actually.)
No wonder so many people want weight loss to be in that vein too -- eat 900 cal a day, fast for a week, never eat [insert foods you might enjoy here]. Not really consistent with a focus on health as the goal, though.
That aside, I would personally agree that in my own case not losing weight for a period of time was in part that I was confused about what to do and thought it would be harder than it was, feared failure and pity (I felt better pretending to be cool with being fat than letting others know I'd tried to lose and failed or that it bothered me -- I didn't tell anyone when I did decide to lose and tried to hide the fact I was dieting even), and because I did not care as much about it as the other things I was prioritizing (when all your stress and will power is used up on other things it's hard to add more things). I just don't think it's some terrible sin or anyone else's business that I had a period of time between when I decided I was unhappy with my weight and when I decided to lose.
To go back to the actual topic of the thread (which was not "expressing moral superiority over fat people or people who used to be fat"), I was lucky in that I was not heavy when younger and did not have a history of bad and counterproductive efforts at dieting and feeling shame and self-hatred connected with that. As a result, it was not super charged for me to decide to try to lose, although even I expected it likely would not work and so framed it for myself as eating heathfully and getting as fit as possible.
If someone finds a focus on weight loss something that tends to make them less likely to make efforts to be healthier and finds it much easier to focus on other good things (like eating well, exercising more, adding in more vegetables and lean protein and reducing high cal/low nutrient options), why complain that they aren't framing it about weight loss?8 -
trulyhealy wrote: »that can’t really be true if you’re fat/obese/underweight bc being bc if you were healthy you wouldn’t get fat
@trulyhealy yes today we know typically a health failure proceeds obesity. Underweight to a point may not be unhealthy but we know on average being obese cuts life expectancy by 7 years and morbid obesity by 14 years.7 -
It's not that hard to gain 30-40 lbs (even 50 lbs) over a period of years.
I gained around 30 pounds in my mid-twenties after my dad died, and since I have always been on the smaller side, I justified eating junk and lots of it because I wasn't heavy. I didn't weigh myself back then, and hit the bar more than the gym, living the life of a college kid, and it truly snuck up on me. I lost about half of the weight gained a couple of years later, but didn't get back down to my original weight until after the birth of my first son. I agree that it's easier than you might think to gain.
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And harder to lose the weight afterwards!
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Theoldguy1 wrote: »Just as a hypothetical thought experiment, I decided to run the numbers for an 'average' (5'9") 30 year old male in Scooby's calculator. If he's at a median healthy BMI (22), his weight is 150 and his TDEE at a moderate (3-5 hrs/wk) level is 2592. Supposing his activity drops to 1-3 hrs/wk, his TDEE will drop to 2300.
With that 292 cal/day difference, if his intake stays the same he'll gain slightly faster than .5 lb/wk until his weight reaches the point his maintenance matches his intake, which I estimated at about 185 lbs or a bit over 27 BMI (median overweight range). He'll reach that point in a bit under 70 weeks.
It's easy to factor in portion creep or eating out more to allow for that push him into the obese category, which again does not require any disordered or otherwise unhealthy behaviors or conditions to be present. Just following habit and not deliberately changing their intake to match their activity.
Ideally, should a person be mindful they've put on weight and course correct? Absolutely! But people often have other priorities going on in their lives and coast on their habits until they get a jarring reminder that things have changed over time. Our mental self-image often doesn't let us see those changes in the mirror unless we take measurements or weigh ourselves to do that assessment.
What priorities prevent one from putting less food in their mouth?
Seems a rather loaded question that assumes people inherently know the relative amounts of food people are putting in their mouth at any given instant.
Surely you are aware that a person's emotional state shades their perception, right?6 -
It's especially hard to lose the weight when you're working with diet plans from organisations like Weight Watchers, Slimming World, Atkins and so on that don't teach you anything about calories but offer instead a specific way of eating that has, for most people, the side effect of reducing calories.
I say 'for most people' because I, for one, am capable of overeating on carrots. Because I like carrots. I also like meat. And salad. And nuts. And when I felt ravenous (which was anytime I was bored) I would cheerily binge on whatever free foods that particular diet plan offered in the comfortable certainty that doing so wouldn't affect my weight loss. Because the 'experts' said those foods didn't count, right?
Weight Watchers may not have counted it, but my body sure as heck did. Result: even more overweight despite following each plan to the letter. Result: hopelessness, despair, giving up, eating pizza and cake because what the heck, might as well, it wasn't like eating what I was 'supposed' to worked any better.5 -
The idea that health is really what matters comes in when the activity is seen as not self-punishing enough, perhaps, or indulgence, not toughness.
Get by on 4 hours of sleep regularly, have a stressful job, pull all-nighters, pound out the last 10 miles of a marathon on an injured knee -- toughness. (I used to do all these but the last regularly, and mostly got praise or admiration for it, and even now I have trouble not seeing a virtue in sacrificing self care for such things, not sacrificing sleep first and feeling proud that I don't need to sleep that much, in my mind -- that's kind of messed up, actually.)
No wonder so many people want weight loss to be in that vein too -- eat 900 cal a day, fast for a week, never eat [insert foods you might enjoy here]. Not really consistent with a focus on health as the goal, though.
That aside, I would personally agree that in my own case not losing weight for a period of time was in part that I was confused about what to do and thought it would be harder than it was, feared failure and pity (I felt better pretending to be cool with being fat than letting others know I'd tried to lose and failed or that it bothered me -- I didn't tell anyone when I did decide to lose and tried to hide the fact I was dieting even), and because I did not care as much about it as the other things I was prioritizing (when all your stress and will power is used up on other things it's hard to add more things). I just don't think it's some terrible sin or anyone else's business that I had a period of time between when I decided I was unhappy with my weight and when I decided to lose.
To go back to the actual topic of the thread (which was not "expressing moral superiority over fat people or people who used to be fat"), I was lucky in that I was not heavy when younger and did not have a history of bad and counterproductive efforts at dieting and feeling shame and self-hatred connected with that. As a result, it was not super charged for me to decide to try to lose, although even I expected it likely would not work and so framed it for myself as eating heathfully and getting as fit as possible.
If someone finds a focus on weight loss something that tends to make them less likely to make efforts to be healthier and finds it much easier to focus on other good things (like eating well, exercising more, adding in more vegetables and lean protein and reducing high cal/low nutrient options), why complain that they aren't framing it about weight loss?
Because lifestyle changes only improve your health if you pair it with public self-abasement for having been fat.
If you feel happy about yourself while you do it, the changes won't work.
Fact.6 -
I just want to thank all those for taking the time to patiently and compassionately explain the myriad reasons why life may get in the way of setting weight loss and achieving certain health goals for oneself a priority. I haven’t had time to respond to the gross oversimplification of the assumption that eating less is easy and there’s no good reason why anyone could ever possibly struggle with it unless just lazy.
It’s actually a great counterpoint to why the OP asked about HAES and why that’s a thing. It’s a response to the pervasive fat shaming that is so prevalent in our society, which has been barely veiled here in recent responses. I do think that the HAES movement has taken the pendulum too far in the other direction but again appreciate everyone’s efforts to combat the snide judgement that was on display for the last couple pages.15 -
trulyhealy wrote: »that can’t really be true if you’re fat/obese/underweight bc being bc if you were healthy you wouldn’t get fat
I think the issue here in terms of people seeing eye to eye is that "healthy" is subjective, it isn't some objectively defined thing. Depends what you mean by "healthy".
If by "healthy" you mean only doing things that are conducive to optimal health then I suppose you are correct in what you say, but then again if your definition is that strict I don't think that anyone would qualify as being truly "healthy".
If by "healthy" you mean that at the current time your body is in a condition that gives you the most statistical chance of future health then that would mean that people who were obese would not be healthy as being obese comes with statistical health risks.
If by "healthy" you simply mean that right now, in this moment, you aren't physically sick or suffering from any specific ailment then an obese chain-smoker could be considered to be healthy as long as at that moment they weren't having any medical issues.4 -
HeliumIsNoble wrote: »The idea that health is really what matters comes in when the activity is seen as not self-punishing enough, perhaps, or indulgence, not toughness.
Get by on 4 hours of sleep regularly, have a stressful job, pull all-nighters, pound out the last 10 miles of a marathon on an injured knee -- toughness. (I used to do all these but the last regularly, and mostly got praise or admiration for it, and even now I have trouble not seeing a virtue in sacrificing self care for such things, not sacrificing sleep first and feeling proud that I don't need to sleep that much, in my mind -- that's kind of messed up, actually.)
No wonder so many people want weight loss to be in that vein too -- eat 900 cal a day, fast for a week, never eat [insert foods you might enjoy here]. Not really consistent with a focus on health as the goal, though.
That aside, I would personally agree that in my own case not losing weight for a period of time was in part that I was confused about what to do and thought it would be harder than it was, feared failure and pity (I felt better pretending to be cool with being fat than letting others know I'd tried to lose and failed or that it bothered me -- I didn't tell anyone when I did decide to lose and tried to hide the fact I was dieting even), and because I did not care as much about it as the other things I was prioritizing (when all your stress and will power is used up on other things it's hard to add more things). I just don't think it's some terrible sin or anyone else's business that I had a period of time between when I decided I was unhappy with my weight and when I decided to lose.
To go back to the actual topic of the thread (which was not "expressing moral superiority over fat people or people who used to be fat"), I was lucky in that I was not heavy when younger and did not have a history of bad and counterproductive efforts at dieting and feeling shame and self-hatred connected with that. As a result, it was not super charged for me to decide to try to lose, although even I expected it likely would not work and so framed it for myself as eating heathfully and getting as fit as possible.
If someone finds a focus on weight loss something that tends to make them less likely to make efforts to be healthier and finds it much easier to focus on other good things (like eating well, exercising more, adding in more vegetables and lean protein and reducing high cal/low nutrient options), why complain that they aren't framing it about weight loss?
Because lifestyle changes only improve your health if you pair it with public self-abasement for having been fat.
If you feel happy about yourself while you do it, the changes won't work.
Fact.
Ben Shapiro has assured us multiple times that facts don't care about feelings.2 -
It's especially hard to lose the weight when you're working with diet plans from organisations like Weight Watchers, Slimming World, Atkins and so on that don't teach you anything about calories but offer instead a specific way of eating that has, for most people, the side effect of reducing calories.
I say 'for most people' because I, for one, am capable of overeating on carrots. Because I like carrots. I also like meat. And salad. And nuts. And when I felt ravenous (which was anytime I was bored) I would cheerily binge on whatever free foods that particular diet plan offered in the comfortable certainty that doing so wouldn't affect my weight loss. Because the 'experts' said those foods didn't count, right?
Weight Watchers may not have counted it, but my body sure as heck did. Result: even more overweight despite following each plan to the letter. Result: hopelessness, despair, giving up, eating pizza and cake because what the heck, might as well, it wasn't like eating what I was 'supposed' to worked any better.
Carrots and hummus! I could eat a whole bag and container if I weren't tracking. So delicious, and healthy, but so easy to overdo.
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GaleHawkins wrote: »trulyhealy wrote: »that can’t really be true if you’re fat/obese/underweight bc being bc if you were healthy you wouldn’t get fat
@trulyhealy yes today we know typically a health failure proceeds obesity. Underweight to a point may not be unhealthy but we know on average being obese cuts life expectancy by 7 years and morbid obesity by 14 years.
Do we know that? What data is showing us that?3 -
Pretty sure a person who fit perfectly into the " healthy" category can be sick and unhealthy, ie blood pressure, other heart related issues, anything... Just because you are "skinny" doesn't mean you are healthy... There are many factors that play into health.3
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janejellyroll wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »trulyhealy wrote: »that can’t really be true if you’re fat/obese/underweight bc being bc if you were healthy you wouldn’t get fat
@trulyhealy yes today we know typically a health failure proceeds obesity. Underweight to a point may not be unhealthy but we know on average being obese cuts life expectancy by 7 years and morbid obesity by 14 years.
Do we know that? What data is showing us that?
Same thing came to my mind. Also, what about all the health failures that are a result of obesity? High blood pressure, joint problems, T2D and insulin resistance, cardiac issues. To me, the idea that a health failure proceeds obesity is mostly nonsensical in most cases.4 -
I wonder whether by 'proceeds' GaleHawkins actually meant 'proceeds from' rather than the 'precedes' that we're assuming?1
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I think you can be healthy at a lot of different sizes. My co-worker works out 5 times a week at Orange Theory, rides her bike to work in good weather, is very active, eats well - says her BP and all tests come back fine....yet if you look at her - you'd think she needed to lose 35-45+#. She is solid and in great physical shape (and who knows what she really weighs since she is solid muscle...but I just think genetically she will never be a 110# at 5' tall or a skinny little girl. I would never ask her what she weighs....but guessing she looks to be about 160ish. I know at my worst I was 160 and 5' tall - but I couldn't do anything....barely get up the stairs here at the office. Sometimes you can't fight your body type.3
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I wonder whether by 'proceeds' GaleHawkins actually meant 'proceeds from' rather than the 'precedes' that we're assuming?
Sadly I think that is an incorrect assumption based on what I recall from similar posts from Gale in the past. Paraphrasing but there was some mention of how there aren’t obese wild animals which contributed to his theory that any human who is obese has a mental illness prompting them to eat more total calories than their body needs.
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janejellyroll wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »trulyhealy wrote: »that can’t really be true if you’re fat/obese/underweight bc being bc if you were healthy you wouldn’t get fat
@trulyhealy yes today we know typically a health failure proceeds obesity. Underweight to a point may not be unhealthy but we know on average being obese cuts life expectancy by 7 years and morbid obesity by 14 years.
Do we know that? What data is showing us that?
Same thing came to my mind. Also, what about all the health failures that are a result of obesity? High blood pressure, joint problems, T2D and insulin resistance, cardiac issues. To me, the idea that a health failure proceeds obesity is mostly nonsensical in most cases.
Yeah, folks who insist one way of eating is better or healthier often conflate the results of obesity as being caused by a way of eating, and the benefits of weight loss with the benefits of the way of eating they are invested in. And it is ridiculously difficult to convince them to take a step back and be mindful of that.
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It's a shame that moral judgement has to come into this conversation. It is fairly easy for a normal, healthy individual to become underweight or overweight slowly over time without consciously realizing it has become a problem. I think it is more prevalent that someone who becomes obese has either consciously decided to allow it to happen or has physical or mental health issues affecting the situation, but I wouldn't say that's absolutely true.
The HAES movement is rather complex. I think there is an understandable part of it that is essentially saying everyone has value at every size, a person's health shouldn't be written off just because of their size, and the medical community shouldn't diminish every health concern down to "You need to lose weight". But while being obese or underweight might not immediately make you unhealthy, I think the stress it puts on different body systems which increases your risk of all sorts of issues is important not to lose sight of.8
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