Fat-positive Feminism and Weight Loss
Replies
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choosing to be fat as a way to "fight the power" so to speak, to challenge societal standards of beauty and femininity.
I think maybe a better term that would give you less internal turmoil would be Body Positive. Having a positive self-image no matter what body you're in and striving to make it the best you are comfortable with
I agree - go for the positive self-image. But 'choosing to be fat as a way to fight the power'? No, the only person you are hurting (or fighting) is yourself - the so called 'power' doesn't care. I spent most of my life being very obese and it hurts - it's not fighting the power or challenging societal standards when your body is screaming at you to fix it. I've experienced life on both sides - I was still the same person when I lost 153 pounds, just smaller. Choose healthy and a positive self-image no matter what size you are.0 -
I'm seeing myself as MY BODY POSITIVE rather than "fat positive"
I just wrote an apology to my body as part of my healing and I feel great since I stopped eating bread.
I made a choice a few days ago to not speak to myself in a negative way especially relating to my body.
Feel free to add me if you want to!0 -
I am proud to call myself a feminist and have no qualms about losing weight. I am losing it for me, so that I am healthier and feel more comfortable in my own body,0
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I tried reading all the responses before I posted, but I couldn't take any more a few pages in. All I'm hearing is "fat is bad and you should feel bad blah blah blah"
I'm fat-positive.
I grew up in the neo-pagan community; the daughter of a 300lb witch of a woman. Big women are very common amongst American pagans. We call it "goddess sized" and we're cool with it. More than cool with it. "Goddess Size" is sexy. We're a sensual people. We like to eat, to drink, to dance, and to hug. I've seen more dancing, naked, fat people in my lifetime than you can possibly imagine.
The pagan community is gender positive, but very feminist. We overemphasize the feminine divine. Our leaders are women.
I was looking at fat people during my developmental life stages. In my early teens, I looked at all those soft rolls dancing by firelight and realized that I wanted to touch that. All that jiggly business. I've been a chubby chaser my whole life.
Fat people can have their health problems. They'll have painful joints if they stay sedentary. But sedentary and out of physical shape and fat don't go hand and hand. You can run/dance/climb all you want, but if you eat too many good meals, you'll be fat as *kitten*. I can't get down with hating fat people, shaming them, calling them all sorts of names (lazy, gross, in denial, selfish, stupid)----just because they overeat?
Maybe if they're fat because they under-exercise. That's easy to do. It's harder to burn calories than it is to eat them. Sedentary is lazy. A sedentary person can be in denial. But a sedentary person can be skinny, also, and that's just as unhealthy as being sedentary and fat.
You can run miles and miles and be fat. I know plenty of people in very good shape, hauling around a whole lot of hearty-meal-induced pounds.
and me? I am interested in the interesting people who enjoy fine wine, good meals. Happy people eat dessert. I'll hang out with someone who can appreciate cake long before I'll hang out with someone who whines about calories and always turns down doughnuts.
.
.
.
and all that fat-positive belief does nothing to dissuade me from preferring myself thin
I don't like being heavy. Cars, clothes, carnival rides, bicycles, restaurant booths: they aren't comfortable to me when I gain weight. So I stay slim. I stay slim because I like me slim.
Maybe it's hypocritical?
but my skinny daughter-of-crazy-feminists self dates heavy because heavy can be sexy.0 -
I tried reading all the responses before I posted, but I couldn't take any more a few pages in. All I'm hearing is "fat is bad and you should feel bad blah blah blah"
I'm fat-positive.
I grew up in the neo-pagan community; the daughter of a 300lb witch of a woman. Big women are very common amongst American pagans. We call it "goddess sized" and we're cool with it. More than cool with it. "Goddess Size" is sexy. We're a sensual people. We like to eat, to drink, to dance, and to hug. I've seen more dancing, naked, fat people in my lifetime than you can possibly imagine.
The pagan community is gender positive, but very feminist. We overemphasize the feminine divine. Our leaders are women.
I was looking at fat people during my developmental life stages. In my early teens, I looked at all those soft rolls dancing by firelight and realized that I wanted to touch that. All that jiggly business. I've been a chubby chaser my whole life.
Fat people can have their health problems. They'll have painful joints if they stay sedentary. But sedentary and out of physical shape and fat don't go hand and hand. You can run/dance/climb all you want, but if you eat too many good meals, you'll be fat as *kitten*. I can't get down with hating fat people, shaming them, calling them all sorts of names (lazy, gross, in denial, selfish, stupid)----just because they overeat?
Maybe if they're fat because they under-exercise. That's easy to do. It's harder to burn calories than it is to eat them. Sedentary is lazy. A sedentary person can be in denial. But a sedentary person can be skinny, also, and that's just as unhealthy as being sedentary and fat.
You can run miles and miles and be fat. I know plenty of people in very good shape, hauling around a whole lot of hearty-meal-induced pounds.
and me? I am interested in the interesting people who enjoy fine wine, good meals. Happy people eat dessert. I'll hang out with someone who can appreciate cake long before I'll hang out with someone who whines about calories and always turns down doughnuts.
.
.
.
and all that fat-positive belief does nothing to dissuade me from preferring myself thin
I don't like being heavy. Cars, clothes, carnival rides, bicycles, restaurant booths: they aren't comfortable to me when I gain weight. So I stay slim. I stay slim because I like me slim.
Maybe it's hypocritical?
but my skinny daughter-of-crazy-feminists self dates heavy because heavy can be sexy.
Would you marry me? I think I love you!0 -
I am happy to find this mostly intelligent discussion thread in the MFP sea (except for a few hateful comments in here).
I am a feminist. I was not insecure about my body when I was overweight. However I was rightfully unhappy and angry with some other very painful problems and relationships issues in my life. But I was doing the best I could at the time to take care of myself and be healthy.
I started going to therapy and focusing on surrendering and de-stressing and being happy and taking care of myself. I started to become happier inside. And then one day I realized that I had also started losing weight without trying. Being healthy externally was a byproduct for me of being healthy and happy internally.
So for me I didn't have to reconcile a decision to lose weight with questioning if I was accepting myself or not. It was the reverse: because I accepted and cared for myself, I started to lose weight. I do think this will be the case for many people. I understand there are exceptions such as people who are overweight because of medical issues. However the majority of people are overweight because of emotional challenges. Obviously people can be underweight or ideal weight too with emotional challenges and stresses. I don't judge people and never assume anything about their reasons when I meet them.
I still have those painful external problems and relationship issues in my life - they haven't gone away. I am now maintaining a healthy weight and trying to focus on taking care of myself. I don't want to take my anger at my circumstances out on myself and punish myself by overeating, not exercising and gaining weight. A way for me to fight the power is to keep being healthy and happy despite the crap that life throws at me, to rise above my problems and triumph.
Another note is that I actually enjoy physical activity, sports, exercise, walking, hiking, dancing. These can be really enjoyable things that make your life fulfilling if you find activities that you enjoy and don't just feel forced to do. Engaging in these healthy ways to enjoy my life are ways to value myself.
Thank you so much for sharing0 -
I would say that in considering if your fitness goals are based on societal influences, you are allowing yourself the self-doubt that makes it so you don't have to work so hard for it. A bit of an excuse really.... no offense... ha ha I have these all the time! Just that yours, is a different way to look at it.0
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I tried reading all the responses before I posted, but I couldn't take any more a few pages in. All I'm hearing is "fat is bad and you should feel bad blah blah blah"
I'm fat-positive.
I grew up in the neo-pagan community; the daughter of a 300lb witch of a woman. Big women are very common amongst American pagans. We call it "goddess sized" and we're cool with it. More than cool with it. "Goddess Size" is sexy. We're a sensual people. We like to eat, to drink, to dance, and to hug. I've seen more dancing, naked, fat people in my lifetime than you can possibly imagine.
The pagan community is gender positive, but very feminist. We overemphasize the feminine divine. Our leaders are women.
I was looking at fat people during my developmental life stages. In my early teens, I looked at all those soft rolls dancing by firelight and realized that I wanted to touch that. All that jiggly business. I've been a chubby chaser my whole life.
Fat people can have their health problems. They'll have painful joints if they stay sedentary. But sedentary and out of physical shape and fat don't go hand and hand. You can run/dance/climb all you want, but if you eat too many good meals, you'll be fat as *kitten*. I can't get down with hating fat people, shaming them, calling them all sorts of names (lazy, gross, in denial, selfish, stupid)----just because they overeat?
Maybe if they're fat because they under-exercise. That's easy to do. It's harder to burn calories than it is to eat them. Sedentary is lazy. A sedentary person can be in denial. But a sedentary person can be skinny, also, and that's just as unhealthy as being sedentary and fat.
You can run miles and miles and be fat. I know plenty of people in very good shape, hauling around a whole lot of hearty-meal-induced pounds.
and me? I am interested in the interesting people who enjoy fine wine, good meals. Happy people eat dessert. I'll hang out with someone who can appreciate cake long before I'll hang out with someone who whines about calories and always turns down doughnuts.
.
.
.
and all that fat-positive belief does nothing to dissuade me from preferring myself thin
I don't like being heavy. Cars, clothes, carnival rides, bicycles, restaurant booths: they aren't comfortable to me when I gain weight. So I stay slim. I stay slim because I like me slim.
Maybe it's hypocritical?
but my skinny daughter-of-crazy-feminists self dates heavy because heavy can be sexy.
Yes yes , thank you!! Excellent0 -
I consider myself feminist and body positive. I don't believe that anyone should have their value as a person judged based on their weight, appearance, or ability. I have people I love in my life of all different sizes, and I accept and love them where they're at. However, I don't think it is incompatible to love/accept/don't judge someone where they are at, and also endorse a healthier lifestyle.
I think it's important to love yourself and your body - but loving it invokes taking care of it. I don't want to body-shame anyone, including myself, but no one does themselves any favors by remaining unhealthy, making choices that will, in the long run, affect mobility and even life span. It's hard for men to "get" how much emotional and societal baggage women have about weight and their bodies,and I appreciate a lot of the affirming parts of the "fat positive" movement - but I also think it enables women to not have to heal the relationships they have with food or their bodies. If you're "perfectly fine" the way you are then you never have to change anything or understand why you overeat or overcome your fears of working out, and you never get to be amazed by watching yourself rise to a physical challenge and meet it. It seems like a bandaid to cover/redefine the situation, not a solution. And I think it may do as much harm as it does good.
So, for me, I am body positive. I don't talk *kitten* about my body or anyone else's, I try not to judge myself, I challenge body shaming, and I take myself and others where they're at. But I also owe it to myself and my kids to make the most out of this one life I have, and this one body I have. And that means confronting my own issues with food, getting myself to a healthy weight, and getting myself active and strong.
Wow! Said so well! I needed to read this-thanks!0 -
This is starting to sound like a Tumblr debate...! Heh.
On that note: I follow a lot of fitness blogs, but I also follow a lot of women who are feminists, or part of the fat acceptance movement... OR Just fat positive/body positive in general.
I AM NOT STATING I AGREE WITH ALL OF THE FOLLOWING INFORMATION, but these are the statements I see the most when fat acceptance/haes supporters are questioned:
The big reason a lot of them are against dieting or trying to change their lifestyles is because many like to read articles or studies that contradict most of the information we have out there, especially the idea that diet and exercise can "cure" obesity. Here is something I have read myself that may shock you: Scientifically, they have not actually found a cure for obesity. Like any longterm ailment, such as asthma, diabetes, or depression: once you have it chances are it will never go away completely! Even if you have gotten yourself healthy you have to continue managing/treating it for the rest of your life to prevent it from coming back or getting worse. Many studies have found certain people can't ever keep weight off, they just have naturally larger bodies and more fat cells just like other people are underweight regardless of how much or how little they consume. Many also dispute just how bad it is to be overweight or obese in the first place. It is more of a "Why bother?" mentality since many assume any weight loss will not last/will cause more harm than good.
That being said, I don't think carrying a little extra weight is AS MUCH of a problem as doctors and the media make it seem like it is... but once you start getting up there at 40, 50, 100+ pounds it is undisputed that there are certain health risks that dramatically increase. When I was 50 lbs overweight I was exhausted all the time, unable to run up stairs without having to catch my breath, and often I would park it in front of the tv and literally scarf down an entire extra-large tub of Nutella in one sitting. That isn't healthy no matter how big or small a person is.
Fat is often the first thing we look for when we try to figure out if a person is healthy or not, and sometimes that isn't always a very accurate way to look at it. There are plenty of thin people with poor eating habits and a sedentary lifestyle, they aren't any healthier than I was, but because of genetics it may never catch up with them in terms of weight!
ANYWAY, back to the point: I believe you can be a feminist and body positive no matter what your size, you CAN love your body and still try to lose some weight. The two are not mutually exclusive. I don't believe you should shame anybody for the way they look, fat or thin, because you have no idea what their story is and frankly, unless you are a parent or medical professional, their bodies are none of your business.!0 -
I'm fat positive and want to lose weight. It's not an oxymoron you can desire health and still hate discrimination0
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This is starting to sound like a Tumblr debate...! Heh.
On that note: I follow a lot of fitness blogs, but I also follow a lot of women who are feminists, or part of the fat acceptance movement... OR Just fat positive/body positive in general.
I AM NOT STATING I AGREE WITH ALL OF THE FOLLOWING INFORMATION, but these are the statements I see the most when fat acceptance/haes supporters are questioned:
The big reason a lot of them are against dieting or trying to change their lifestyles is because many like to read articles or studies that contradict most of the information we have out there, especially the idea that diet and exercise can "cure" obesity. Here is something I have read myself that may shock you: Scientifically, they have not actually found a cure for obesity. Like any longterm ailment, such as asthma, diabetes, or depression: once you have it chances are it will never go away completely! Even if you have gotten yourself healthy you have to continue managing/treating it for the rest of your life to prevent it from coming back or getting worse. Many studies have found certain people can't ever keep weight off, they just have naturally larger bodies and more fat cells just like other people are underweight regardless of how much or how little they consume. Many also dispute just how bad it is to be overweight or obese in the first place. It is more of a "Why bother?" mentality since many assume any weight loss will not last/will cause more harm than good.
That being said, I don't think carrying a little extra weight is AS MUCH of a problem as doctors and the media make it seem like it is... but once you start getting up there at 40, 50, 100+ pounds it is undisputed that there are certain health risks that dramatically increase. When I was 50 lbs overweight I was exhausted all the time, unable to run up stairs without having to catch my breath, and often I would park it in front of the tv and literally scarf down an entire extra-large tub of Nutella in one sitting. That isn't healthy no matter how big or small a person is.
Fat is often the first thing we look for when we try to figure out if a person is healthy or not, and sometimes that isn't always a very accurate way to look at it. There are plenty of thin people with poor eating habits and a sedentary lifestyle, they aren't any healthier than I was, but because of genetics it may never catch up with them in terms of weight!
ANYWAY, back to the point: I believe you can be a feminist and body positive no matter what your size, you CAN love your body and still try to lose some weight. The two are not mutually exclusive. I don't believe you should shame anybody for the way they look, fat or thin, because you have no idea what their story is and frankly, unless you are a parent or medical professional, their bodies are none of your business.!
Interesting perspective, thanks. It's true a majority of people who lose weight will gain at least some of it back. Yo yo dieting can also have negative consequences on metabolism. I have never heard it argued that therefore obesity should be accepted as a permanent/irreversible condition, but I understand how that information could be floating out there. And if it's a permanent condition that you cannot escape, it makes more sense to embrace and accept it. That sheds a lot of light on the movement, for me.0 -
From Merriam-Webster:
I don't consider myself a feminist in the modern meaning of the word by any means.
Feminism: : the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes
Just curious...which part of this don't you believe in?
It no longer represents those things, in my opinion. MODERN feminism as a whole, has turned into women playing victims, and wanting to be BETTER than men, not equal to them. We should all be as good as each other, and we have the rights we fought for. Being better than 'the other gender' is not beneficial at all, it's childish.0 -
It no longer represents those things, in my opinion. MODERN feminism as a whole, has turned into women playing victims, and wanting to be BETTER than men, not equal to them. We should all be as good as each other, and we have the rights we fought for. Being better than 'the other gender' is not beneficial at all, it's childish.
No, we don't have all those rights we fought for.
*Women on average STILL earn less than men for performing the same jobs.
*Women on average STILL comprise less of the power positions in society. (CEO's, Lawmakers, etc etc)
*Women on average STILL fight for equal healthcare.
*Women on average STILL fought to be properly heard in cases of sexual assault.
And that's just in America. Overseas we have women fighting for their right to basic education. Are feminists angry? **** YEAH. I don't understand why the above issues DON'T anger women. It depresses me to see so many women - younger ones specifically - act as if we have done all we needed to do. Women, minorities, gays, transgender folks - we are not yet equal.
We have not yet reached home. We still have a lot of work to do.0 -
i don't think so...because heavy ppl who hang together and just go ...oh we're fat...tend to stay fat together because they comfort eachother...not trying to change themselves. being excepting of yourself is great so that you like yourself to make healthy changes not try to live up to societies standards0
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I don't except my fat or anyone elses...i know some people are big and have mulitple reason for it...and can not always exercise but they can eat right. I don't want to be supermodel skinny I just want to be healthy for my kid...I go through ups and downs of F it im just gonna eat what I want and be happy but then I know thats not good either. I just want to be healthy ...I like my curves and being thicker than I used to be but I need to lose weight and be healthy...its a struggle.0
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There is also the idea that if one calls themselves a feminist they are fighting ONLY for women's rights. No, we're not. No one questions my inclusivity if I am fighting for gay rights. No one insists that I do not care for the plight of others if I say I'm fighting for gay's rights.
The same MUST be noted for feminists. Just because I am a feminist does NOT mean I am blind to the plight of others who are struggling for equality. It means that feminist issues, like others, are important enough for me to give a name to.0 -
Totally agree with what Roses and Such said:
"I believe you can be a feminist and body positive no matter what your size, you CAN love your body and still try to lose some weight. The two are not mutually exclusive. I don't believe you should shame anybody for the way they look, fat or thin, because you have no idea what their story is and frankly, unless you are a parent or medical professional, their bodies are none of your business."
[ And sometimes, even if you're a parent, it's none of your business -- at least when your kids reach a certain age. ] :-)
Great discussion, btw.0 -
There's nothing positive about being severely overweight. Being fat is hell- accepting obesity is the same thing as accepting heart disease, diabetes, and a life of unnecessary difficulty.0
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I consider myself an extremely positive, strong and independent woman. I will not ever, nor do I want to be, a feminist. Although I agree with the basic concepts of feminism (equality) I believe it is, as we practice it today, unhealthy. I reference the OP's quandary. How she can feel conflicted and hypocritical puzzles me? Her personal quest of self improvement has no bearings on others or how she should relate to, or feel about, others. I see this with many people today.
OP, just because you want to be healthy and look good does not mean you should feel guilty, or as you put it, a hypocrite, because others chose to be unhealthy and unattractive. Your not a feminist, your so politically correct your actually preventing yourself from functioning properly.0 -
*Women on average STILL earn less than men for performing the same jobs.
*Women on average STILL comprise less of the power positions in society. (CEO's, Lawmakers, etc etc)
*Women on average STILL fight for equal healthcare.
*Women on average STILL fought to be properly heard in cases of sexual assault.
1. "The day that the Equal Pay Act was signed into law, women earned 59 cents for every dollar a man earned on average. Today, it's about 77 cents," the president said. "Over the course of her career, a working woman with a college degree will earn on average hundreds of thousands of dollars less than a man who does the same work. "
Nonsense. The 77 percent figure is bogus because it averages all full-time women, no matter what education and profession, with all full-time men. Even with such averaging, the latest Labor Department figures show that women working full-time make 81 percent of full-time men's wages. For men and women who work 40 hours weekly, the ratio is 88 percent.
Unmarried childless women's salaries, however, often exceed men's. In a comparison of unmarried and childless men and women between the ages of 35 and 43, women earn more: 108 cents on a man's dollar.
Mr. President, if you're so concerned about the wage gap, why not fix it in your White House? In 2012, female White House staffers made 87 cents on a man's dollar, according to an analysis of published salaries by the Daily Caller.
Women make less than men because they choose more humanities and fewer science and math majors at college. Then, when they graduate, more enter the non-profit or government sector. Finally, many choose to work fewer hours to better combine work and family. In May, 2013, according to Labor Department data, 23 percent of women worked part-time, compared to 11 percent of men."
2. That is not discrimination, it is wholly choice. Women often choose children over being a CEO. A lot of companies these days have female quotas which they need to fill, which in my opinion is actually counteractive to feminism, because it is saying women can't make it on their own merit. This means a lot more staff are women, IF THEY CHOOSE SO. You have the choice to be a CEO tomorrow, the question is do you a) want it? and b) want to put the work in and c) pick it over a family?
'Feminists should admit that working part-time, or not working outside the home, is as valid a choice for women as being Marissa Mayer, the CEO of Yahoo, or Marissa Meyer, the novelist. A choice of more leisure over more paid work is not a social problem, just as a man who decides to retire early does not face social criticism.'
3. I'm not even entertaining this one, because that is simply not true. If you're referring to 'right to birth control', then I will say I disagree with it completely, because it is not the governments place to take care of it, it's your/ your partners responsibility, no one elses. Please explain what you mean if not that, because there most definitely is equal healthcare in other aspects.
4. Men have literally no voice when it comes to sexual assault cases, and most of the time men being raped is more of a joke than a serious issue. It happens, yet it is not as heard of and it definitely isn't taken seriously. Women are taken seriously at the tiniest complaint, and a lot of claims are proven to be fake, mostly by women (not hating on women, this is fact) and thus, it makes real cases a lot less viewed because a stupid few want to make a joke out of something so bad. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_accusation_of_rape#Rumney_.282006.29
We ARE equal, we can vote, we can work or have children, we can make choices. Third worlds countries is a different story, and frankly, I think feminists in developed countries complaining about their 'lack of equal rights' is rich compared to what some women on this earth are forced to do.
Feminism of today is synonymous with spoiled brat syndrome as far as I am concerned. If women care so much about equality, they shouldn't support women having more rights than men. That isn't true equality.
I'm for equal rights for everyone, men and women, and that was achieved many, many years ago.
I am not a Feminist, I detest Feminism as it is TODAY, and do not feel bad about saying it. Weight has nothing to do with feminism, and in the times we are in now, overweight women are a lot more accepted, to say anything else is to have your head buried in the sand. What I'm saying may not be popular but it is the truth.0 -
*Women on average STILL earn less than men for performing the same jobs.
*Women on average STILL comprise less of the power positions in society. (CEO's, Lawmakers, etc etc)
*Women on average STILL fight for equal healthcare.
*Women on average STILL fought to be properly heard in cases of sexual assault.
1. "The day that the Equal Pay Act was signed into law, women earned 59 cents for every dollar a man earned on average. Today, it's about 77 cents," the president said. "Over the course of her career, a working woman with a college degree will earn on average hundreds of thousands of dollars less than a man who does the same work. "
Nonsense. The 77 percent figure is bogus because it averages all full-time women, no matter what education and profession, with all full-time men. Even with such averaging, the latest Labor Department figures show that women working full-time make 81 percent of full-time men's wages. For men and women who work 40 hours weekly, the ratio is 88 percent.
Unmarried childless women's salaries, however, often exceed men's. In a comparison of unmarried and childless men and women between the ages of 35 and 43, women earn more: 108 cents on a man's dollar.
Mr. President, if you're so concerned about the wage gap, why not fix it in your White House? In 2012, female White House staffers made 87 cents on a man's dollar, according to an analysis of published salaries by the Daily Caller.
Women make less than men because they choose more humanities and fewer science and math majors at college. Then, when they graduate, more enter the non-profit or government sector. Finally, many choose to work fewer hours to better combine work and family. In May, 2013, according to Labor Department data, 23 percent of women worked part-time, compared to 11 percent of men."
2. That is not discrimination, it is wholly choice. Women often choose children over being a CEO. A lot of companies these days have female quotas which they need to fill, which in my opinion is actually counteractive to feminism, because it is saying women can't make it on their own merit. This means a lot more staff are women, IF THEY CHOOSE SO. You have the choice to be a CEO tomorrow, the question is do you a) want it? and b) want to put the work in and c) pick it over a family?
'Feminists should admit that working part-time, or not working outside the home, is as valid a choice for women as being Marissa Mayer, the CEO of Yahoo, or Marissa Meyer, the novelist. A choice of more leisure over more paid work is not a social problem, just as a man who decides to retire early does not face social criticism.'
3. I'm not even entertaining this one, because that is simply not true. If you're referring to 'right to birth control', then I will say I disagree with it completely, because it is not the governments place to take care of it, it's your/ your partners responsibility, no one elses. Please explain what you mean if not that, because there most definitely is equal healthcare in other aspects.
4. Men have literally no voice when it comes to sexual assault cases, and most of the time men being raped is more of a joke than a serious issue. It happens, yet it is not as heard of and it definitely isn't taken seriously. Women are taken seriously at the tiniest complaint, and a lot of claims are proven to be fake, mostly by women (not hating on women, this is fact) and thus, it makes real cases a lot less viewed because a stupid few want to make a joke out of something so bad. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_accusation_of_rape#Rumney_.282006.29
We ARE equal, we can vote, we can work or have children, we can make choices. Third worlds countries is a different story, and frankly, I think feminists in developed countries complaining about their 'lack of equal rights' is rich compared to what some women on this earth are forced to do.
Feminism of today is synonymous with spoiled brat syndrome as far as I am concerned. If women care so much about equality, they shouldn't support women having more rights than men. That isn't true equality.
I'm for equal rights for everyone, men and women, and that was achieved many, many years ago.
I am not a Feminist, I detest Feminism as it is TODAY, and do not feel bad about saying it. Weight has nothing to do with feminism, and in the times we are in now, overweight women are a lot more accepted, to say anything else is to have your head buried in the sand. What I'm saying may not be popular but it is the truth.
:flowerforyou:0 -
*Women on average STILL earn less than men for performing the same jobs.
*Women on average STILL comprise less of the power positions in society. (CEO's, Lawmakers, etc etc)
*Women on average STILL fight for equal healthcare.
*Women on average STILL fought to be properly heard in cases of sexual assault.
1. "The day that the Equal Pay Act was signed into law, women earned 59 cents for every dollar a man earned on average. Today, it's about 77 cents," the president said. "Over the course of her career, a working woman with a college degree will earn on average hundreds of thousands of dollars less than a man who does the same work. "
Nonsense. The 77 percent figure is bogus because it averages all full-time women, no matter what education and profession, with all full-time men. Even with such averaging, the latest Labor Department figures show that women working full-time make 81 percent of full-time men's wages. For men and women who work 40 hours weekly, the ratio is 88 percent.
Unmarried childless women's salaries, however, often exceed men's. In a comparison of unmarried and childless men and women between the ages of 35 and 43, women earn more: 108 cents on a man's dollar.
Mr. President, if you're so concerned about the wage gap, why not fix it in your White House? In 2012, female White House staffers made 87 cents on a man's dollar, according to an analysis of published salaries by the Daily Caller.
Women make less than men because they choose more humanities and fewer science and math majors at college. Then, when they graduate, more enter the non-profit or government sector. Finally, many choose to work fewer hours to better combine work and family. In May, 2013, according to Labor Department data, 23 percent of women worked part-time, compared to 11 percent of men."
2. That is not discrimination, it is wholly choice. Women often choose children over being a CEO. A lot of companies these days have female quotas which they need to fill, which in my opinion is actually counteractive to feminism, because it is saying women can't make it on their own merit. This means a lot more staff are women, IF THEY CHOOSE SO. You have the choice to be a CEO tomorrow, the question is do you a) want it? and b) want to put the work in and c) pick it over a family?
'Feminists should admit that working part-time, or not working outside the home, is as valid a choice for women as being Marissa Mayer, the CEO of Yahoo, or Marissa Meyer, the novelist. A choice of more leisure over more paid work is not a social problem, just as a man who decides to retire early does not face social criticism.'
3. I'm not even entertaining this one, because that is simply not true. If you're referring to 'right to birth control', then I will say I disagree with it completely, because it is not the governments place to take care of it, it's your/ your partners responsibility, no one elses. Please explain what you mean if not that, because there most definitely is equal healthcare in other aspects.
4. Men have literally no voice when it comes to sexual assault cases, and most of the time men being raped is more of a joke than a serious issue. It happens, yet it is not as heard of and it definitely isn't taken seriously. Women are taken seriously at the tiniest complaint, and a lot of claims are proven to be fake, mostly by women (not hating on women, this is fact) and thus, it makes real cases a lot less viewed because a stupid few want to make a joke out of something so bad. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_accusation_of_rape#Rumney_.282006.29
We ARE equal, we can vote, we can work or have children, we can make choices. Third worlds countries is a different story, and frankly, I think feminists in developed countries complaining about their 'lack of equal rights' is rich compared to what some women on this earth are forced to do.
Feminism of today is synonymous with spoiled brat syndrome as far as I am concerned. If women care so much about equality, they shouldn't support women having more rights than men. That isn't true equality.
I'm for equal rights for everyone, men and women, and that was achieved many, many years ago.
I am not a Feminist, I detest Feminism as it is TODAY, and do not feel bad about saying it. Weight has nothing to do with feminism, and in the times we are in now, overweight women are a lot more accepted, to say anything else is to have your head buried in the sand. What I'm saying may not be popular but it is the truth.
YOU ROCK!
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1. "The day that the Equal Pay Act was signed into law, women earned 59 cents for every dollar a man earned on average. Today, it's about 77 cents," the president said. "Over the course of her career, a working woman with a college degree will earn on average hundreds of thousands of dollars less than a man who does the same work. "
Nonsense. The 77 percent figure is bogus because it averages all full-time women, no matter what education and profession, with all full-time men. Even with such averaging, the latest Labor Department figures show that women working full-time make 81 percent of full-time men's wages. For men and women who work 40 hours weekly, the ratio is 88 percent.
Is 88% equal? Are you satisfied with that?
I'm not.2. That is not discrimination, it is wholly choice. Women often choose children over being a CEO. A lot of companies these days have female quotas which they need to fill, which in my opinion is actually counteractive to feminism, because it is saying women can't make it on their own merit. This means a lot more staff are women, IF THEY CHOOSE SO. You have the choice to be a CEO tomorrow, the question is do you a) want it? and b) want to put the work in and c) pick it over a family?
'Feminists should admit that working part-time, or not working outside the home, is as valid a choice for women as being Marissa Mayer, the CEO of Yahoo, or Marissa Meyer, the novelist. A choice of more leisure over more paid work is not a social problem, just as a man who decides to retire early does not face social criticism.'
Yes they do often choose to have children. Many don't - in another part of your post you mentioned that many female staffers at the White House ARE paid equal - if not over what men make. But the mere fact that women CHOOSE to have children should not prevent them from having equal opportunity to rise in status.3. I'm not even entertaining this one, because that is simply not true. If you're referring to 'right to birth control', then I will say I disagree with it completely, because it is not the governments place to take care of it, it's your/ your partners responsibility, no one elses. Please explain what you mean if not that, because there most definitely is equal healthcare in other aspects.
How about mammograms? Wellness check ups? Cervical check ups? Procedures that weren't - until recently - offered under the same costs in an insurance plan? Or that many of the nations providers for such services are currently under fire? (Planned Parenthood, for example.)
4. Men have literally no voice when it comes to sexual assault cases, and most of the time men being raped is more of a joke than a serious issue. It happens, yet it is not as heard of and it definitely isn't taken seriously. Women are taken seriously at the tiniest complaint, and a lot of claims are proven to be fake, mostly by women (not hating on women, this is fact) and thus, it makes real cases a lot less viewed because a stupid few want to make a joke out of something so bad. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_accusation_of_rape#Rumney_.282006.29
Men do suffer greatly - and often more - when they assaulted. If a feminist denies this, she is not a feminist.
That being said, a woman who goes to report sexual assault is often branded a liar. Or called into question because she's previously had sex. (I'm 32 years old. I've had lots of sex. LOOOTTSSS of sex. That doesn't mean I want to be assaulted.) One in every 3 women will be sexually assaulted, often more than once.
I am that woman. I know many of those women. I am not a slut, a *kitten*, a liar, or any of that.
But I am called one. No woman should be. No man should be. Yet we have people in power claiming that "The female body has ways to shut that whole thing down" or "Some girls rape so easy." (Quotes from politicians currently in power)
That's basic science being spat on - and the science of my vagina, no less. That needs to be fought for.
Anyways - I am donating plasma today and need to keep my heart rate low. It's good to have these discussions, but I get really wound up. I do appreciate you arguing your points succinctly and calmly. Thank you for that.
(Also I hate the quoting system here. Oi.)0 -
*Women on average STILL earn less than men for performing the same jobs.
*Women on average STILL comprise less of the power positions in society. (CEO's, Lawmakers, etc etc)
*Women on average STILL fight for equal healthcare.
*Women on average STILL fought to be properly heard in cases of sexual assault.
1. "The day that the Equal Pay Act was signed into law, women earned 59 cents for every dollar a man earned on average. Today, it's about 77 cents," the president said. "Over the course of her career, a working woman with a college degree will earn on average hundreds of thousands of dollars less than a man who does the same work. "
Nonsense. The 77 percent figure is bogus because it averages all full-time women, no matter what education and profession, with all full-time men. Even with such averaging, the latest Labor Department figures show that women working full-time make 81 percent of full-time men's wages. For men and women who work 40 hours weekly, the ratio is 88 percent.
Unmarried childless women's salaries, however, often exceed men's. In a comparison of unmarried and childless men and women between the ages of 35 and 43, women earn more: 108 cents on a man's dollar.
Mr. President, if you're so concerned about the wage gap, why not fix it in your White House? In 2012, female White House staffers made 87 cents on a man's dollar, according to an analysis of published salaries by the Daily Caller.
Women make less than men because they choose more humanities and fewer science and math majors at college. Then, when they graduate, more enter the non-profit or government sector. Finally, many choose to work fewer hours to better combine work and family. In May, 2013, according to Labor Department data, 23 percent of women worked part-time, compared to 11 percent of men."
2. That is not discrimination, it is wholly choice. Women often choose children over being a CEO. A lot of companies these days have female quotas which they need to fill, which in my opinion is actually counteractive to feminism, because it is saying women can't make it on their own merit. This means a lot more staff are women, IF THEY CHOOSE SO. You have the choice to be a CEO tomorrow, the question is do you a) want it? and b) want to put the work in and c) pick it over a family?
'Feminists should admit that working part-time, or not working outside the home, is as valid a choice for women as being Marissa Mayer, the CEO of Yahoo, or Marissa Meyer, the novelist. A choice of more leisure over more paid work is not a social problem, just as a man who decides to retire early does not face social criticism.'
3. I'm not even entertaining this one, because that is simply not true. If you're referring to 'right to birth control', then I will say I disagree with it completely, because it is not the governments place to take care of it, it's your/ your partners responsibility, no one elses. Please explain what you mean if not that, because there most definitely is equal healthcare in other aspects.
4. Men have literally no voice when it comes to sexual assault cases, and most of the time men being raped is more of a joke than a serious issue. It happens, yet it is not as heard of and it definitely isn't taken seriously. Women are taken seriously at the tiniest complaint, and a lot of claims are proven to be fake, mostly by women (not hating on women, this is fact) and thus, it makes real cases a lot less viewed because a stupid few want to make a joke out of something so bad. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_accusation_of_rape#Rumney_.282006.29
We ARE equal, we can vote, we can work or have children, we can make choices. Third worlds countries is a different story, and frankly, I think feminists in developed countries complaining about their 'lack of equal rights' is rich compared to what some women on this earth are forced to do.
Feminism of today is synonymous with spoiled brat syndrome as far as I am concerned. If women care so much about equality, they shouldn't support women having more rights than men. That isn't true equality.
I'm for equal rights for everyone, men and women, and that was achieved many, many years ago.
I am not a Feminist, I detest Feminism as it is TODAY, and do not feel bad about saying it. Weight has nothing to do with feminism, and in the times we are in now, overweight women are a lot more accepted, to say anything else is to have your head buried in the sand. What I'm saying may not be popular but it is the truth.
This. Especially in the 3rd to last paragraph. "spoiled brat syndrome" I'm old enough to remember when women could NOT work outside the home, when we had no choice but to have kids or there was something wrong with us, not being able to buy something on credit w/o my husband and having jokes made by the male bank worker when my husband put me on HIS bank account. When I turned 21 someone shook my hand and said, "Happy Birthday! Your free white and 21. It's just to damn bad your a woman" and the men there laughed. Most of you complaining have absolutely no idea what your talking about. I reference this woman's very well informed post.0 -
This. Especially in the 3rd to last paragraph. "spoiled brat syndrome" I'm old enough to remember when women could NOT work outside the home, when we had no choice but to have kids or there was something wrong with us, not being able to buy something on credit w/o my husband and having jokes made by the male bank worker when my husband put me on HIS bank account. When I turned 21 someone shook my hand and said, "Happy Birthday! Your free white and 21. It's just to damn bad your a woman" and the men there laughed. Most of you complaining have absolutely no idea what your talking about. I reference this woman's very well informed post.
Yes - and there was a time when women couldn't vote.
Were we spoiled when we asked for more????0 -
Yes - and there was a time when women couldn't vote.
Were we spoiled when we asked for more????
No, but we are now.
That time has passed!
It's time to be grateful for what we HAVE achieved, which is quite a lot, not beg for an easy ride in every other aspect. We aren't victims, and we CAN do things for ourselves, so why should everyone else pick up the pieces? If all you 'feminists' truly did believe in feminism, you wouldn't need to campaign for all these things, you would just sort it for yourself, not expect everyone else to do it for you.But the mere fact that women CHOOSE to have children should not prevent them from having equal opportunity to rise in status.
Herein lies the problem. You say you're not satisfied with less pay, yet you want to have your cake and eat it, too!! You have to choose: Earn a little money and have a loving family, or earn a lot of money and not have time to have a family because you work your *kitten* off. You can't have everything!!! I reiterate ; spoiled brat syndrome. Men have to work extremely hard for the 'pay increase' that they supposedly get (really, they just work more hours) and they have to sacrifice family time FOR that. Women should expect the same treatment, not better treatment.How about mammograms? Wellness check ups? Cervical check ups? Procedures that weren't - until recently - offered under the same costs in an insurance plan? Or that many of the nations providers for such services are currently under fire? (Planned Parenthood, for example.)
Since I am not American I cannot answer the specifics on this, and hopefully someone can. As for Planned Parenthood - As a 'feminist' you should be in control of your body, meaning the government has no say in it - fair enough. That also means taking care not to get pregnant if you don't want to, and don't expect the government to foot the bill for YOUR birth control or YOUR irresponsibility. I am talking purely financially here, because this is not turning into an abortion debate on my account.That being said, a woman who goes to report sexual assault is often branded a liar. Or called into question because she's previously had sex. (I'm 32 years old. I've had lots of sex. LOOOTTSSS of sex. That doesn't mean I want to be assaulted.) One in every 3 women will be sexually assaulted, often more than once.
For that - as proved - you can blame other women that DO take the seriousness away and lie about these things. That isn't mens fault, or the governments fault, it is the fault of women that lie. Women need to take responsibility to be in charge of what they do, and when they LIE about something so bad, the consequence will fall on genuine women.But I am called one. No woman should be. No man should be.
No one here called you a slut, and nothing referenced has said anything about anyone being a slut. The only people that get branded as sluts are people that openly look for attention regarding to their sexual lives. If you slept with a million men, your decision, but why feel the need to tell anyone else? It's meant to be personal. You can't expect the world to go easy on you just because you think it is ok, that's a very naive view. If feminism now means the power to sleep with a fifty, ten, or a hundred men, then our ancestors wasted a lot of time.
Anyway, I think I have made my point for today, and that is, most sane women don't want the government, men or anyone else to take care of and make excuses for the hard parts of their lives for them, we will do it ourselves. True feminism is not wanting everyone to pander to you and your ideals, and let you do whatever you want, and feminism also isn't an excuse to do ANYTHING you want, and lose all decorum. It often is used as one, and it is things like this that make me detest what 'feminism' now is. True feminists that fought for EQUAL rights that we HAVE today would be turning in their graves to think of what victims women want to be now.0 -
2. That is not discrimination, it is wholly choice. Women often choose children over being a CEO. A lot of companies these days have female quotas which they need to fill, which in my opinion is actually counteractive to feminism, because it is saying women can't make it on their own merit. This means a lot more staff are women, IF THEY CHOOSE SO. You have the choice to be a CEO tomorrow, the question is do you a) want it? and b) want to put the work in and c) pick it over a family?
'Feminists should admit that working part-time, or not working outside the home, is as valid a choice for women as being Marissa Mayer, the CEO of Yahoo, or Marissa Meyer, the novelist. A choice of more leisure over more paid work is not a social problem, just as a man who decides to retire early does not face social criticism.'
You made the thing about quotas up. This does not exist in the US. I'm assuming you are talking about the US with your little Mr. President shtick.0 -
You made the thing about quotas up. This does not exist in the US. I'm assuming you are talking about the US with your little Mr. President shtick.
If you like to re-read, you will see quotation marks, which means that 'shtick' was not mine.
Secondly ; I am not talking exclusively to America, I am talking about the world. Not everything is central to America, and there ARE places outside of America also. I simply quoted that piece in reply to the last poster. That being said, it is a proposed action for America, and mark my word, it WILL happen.
This doesn't take away from anything I have said.0 -
Herein lies the problem. You say you're not satisfied with less pay, yet you want to have your cake and eat it, too!! You have to choose: Earn a little money and have a loving family, or earn a lot of money and not have time to have a family because you work your *kitten* off. You can't have everything!!! I reiterate ; spoiled brat syndrome. Men have to work extremely hard for the 'pay increase' that they supposedly get (really, they just work more hours) and they have to sacrifice family time FOR that. Women should expect the same treatment, not better treatment.
Haha, okay. Way to belittle working moms. You're the reason why we need feminism, creating a false choice between "a loving family" and "earn a lot of money/working your *kitten* off." Gotta love the moralizing that has at its heart the super-gross implication that women are supposed to be responsible entirely responsible for child-raising. Last I heard that was a responsibility for both the mom and the dad, so why do you think the moms are the only ones who are supposed to be making and accepting that sacrifice?0
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