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Thoughts on the “glamourizing/normalizing” obesity vs body positivity conversations

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  • L1zardQueen
    L1zardQueen Posts: 8,753 Member
    qhob_89 wrote: »
    Tell me how you think that prohibition did work?

    If this is my question... I was agreeing with you. I don’t think it did work... hellooo, moonshine! Just as there was a black market during WWII rationing.
    If this is directed at those who hit the disagree button... I too await their response...

    We are on the same page❤️
  • siberiantarragon
    siberiantarragon Posts: 265 Member
    Tell me how you think that prohibition did work?

    It actually did, in a way. Read the book "Last Call: The Rise and Fall of Prohibition" by Daniel Okrent (it is a great book!) The US used to have a serious, serious alcohol problem. The temperance movement didn't just come out of nowhere -- it was a response to out-of-control alcohol use issues in US society. While the temperance movement didn't stop alcoholism or alcohol use entirely, it did help with the problematic drinking culture that had taken root in the US, and alcohol use levels have never since reached the levels where they were at in the 1800s. It also popularized the concept of "alcoholism" and the idea of treatment for alcohol use disorder.
  • siberiantarragon
    siberiantarragon Posts: 265 Member
    For one, the goal was never to require certain people to consume fewer calories. In fact, people were ENCOURAGED to do things like plant gardens to ensure they had sufficient food to eat.

    Calorie-dense items and addictive processed foods weren't being grown in those gardens. It was mostly fruits and vegetables.
    The rationed items weren't chosen because the government decided that we should eat less of them, it was about preserving resources for the war effort or the literal limited availability of certain foods.

    They WERE chosen because the government decided that we should eat less of them. They just wanted people to eat less of them for a different reason than preventing obesity. This would be about preserving life for the anti-COVID/anti-dying of preventable causes in general effort. I don't see how the difference in aims makes it unworkable.
    The idea that I need permission from the government to put a teaspoon of sugar in my coffee . . . I just don't see that going over.

    Yet the idea that we need permission from the government to have Thanksgiving dinner with relatives, go to a friend's house, or even GO OUTSIDE FOR A WALK is perfectly fine?
  • siberiantarragon
    siberiantarragon Posts: 265 Member
    edited January 2021
    That is a great book, although Okrent disagrees with you that Prohibition could be said to have worked.

    From an interview: "I don't see how anyone can successfully argue that it was worth it, because the other consequences were so severe."

    https://www.vox.com/2015/10/19/9566935/prohibition-myths-misconceptions-facts

    While we may not be drinking at the levels we were in the 1800s, we have had national periods where we were drinking at pre-Prohibition levels so I'm not sure how you can conclude that it "worked."

    The temperance movement did have an effect on alcohol consumption levels, though. Alcohol consumption levels had already fallen significantly by the 1920s, as a result of the temperance movement. Perhaps it was a victim of its own success, in a way.

    Also note that this article ALSO says: "But one thing many don't know is that Prohibition did, in fact, reduce alcohol consumption: As Okrent told me, tax stamps from before and after Prohibition's passage suggest there was, indeed, a decline in drinking — one that was sustained for several years. "

    The problem was it also caused other secondary effects such as an increase in crime, but, hey, nobody cared about secondary effects when it came to lockdown because "if it saves just one life," right? (Says the person who had to move due to a lockdown-induced crime spike in the area in which I used to live.)

    Also, Prohibition involved banning alcohol entirely. Whereas this rationing plan wouldn't involve banning junk food entirely, just limiting it. I think that's an important distinction. Moderation and prohibition are two very different things. I'm not even sure why people are comparing the two, really, as it's a totally false comparison.

  • siberiantarragon
    siberiantarragon Posts: 265 Member
    edited January 2021
    People were specifically encouraged to grow potatoes due to their relative calorie density. Yeah, they grew fruits and vegetables -- what ELSE are you going to grow in a backyard garden? The goal of food rationing was never, for a moment, designed to limit the number of calories in the American diet. You're talking about taking a limited duration ban designed exclusively to preserve resources for the war effort and using it as a template to force weight loss on the population.

    I really doubt people are going to get obese off of backyard-grown potatoes and I also don't see how this has anything to do with the discussion. I also really doubt people are going to starve to death if they're only allowed to buy a limited number of desserts and fast-food meals per week.
    I am not sure what area you are referencing when people cannot walk outside. Even in California, where restrictions are pretty tight, there is a specific exemption for people walking or hiking outside. There may be areas in the US right now where people are not allowed to walk outside, but that would not be the norm. To use that to make the case that the federal government should artificially restrict my access to white flour seems like an overreaction.

    Restrictions on outdoor exercise up to and including outright bans have occurred in the UK, Australia, France, Italy, Spain, China, and probably some other places I'm missing. Sure, they're not in the US, but they still count as places, right? (And many people say we should have followed their example.) In my area they also closed all the parks for a couple of months, which effectively banned outdoor exercise for anyone who doesn't live in a walkable neighborhood. They also banned driving unless you're going to the store or somewhere else "essential," so, no driving to a more walkable neighborhood either. They reversed those restrictions for now, but if it happened once, it can happen again.

  • siberiantarragon
    siberiantarragon Posts: 265 Member
    That alcohol consumption levels dropped due to the Temperance movement's pre-Prohibition efforts to persuade people to voluntarily limit their drinking is not a reason to conclude that Prohibition itself worked. I do note that the article itself notes that the decline was sustained for "several years." It caught my attention because of your claim that we never returned to 1800s level drinking levels and I realized what you were trying to do there -- make it seem like Prohibition itself had permanently caused the drinking level to decline. It didn't. And Prohibition itself had terrible consequences. I know you WANT it to have worked because it fits nicely with what you want to do to my pantry. That doesn't mean it DID work.

    We didn't return to 1800s level drinking levels, as a result of the temperance movement. Prohibition came after the drinking levels had already significantly dropped from their peak in the 1830s...as a result of the temperance movement. Drinking levels reduced DURING Prohibition, and then went back up several years after it ended...because there was no more Prohibition. So, at the time the policy existed, it did reduce drinking levels. And drinking levels also reduced in the decades beforehand due to the actions of the people who supported the policy.

    So you think we should have an analogue of the temperance movement instead of outright rationing to reduce obesity? I mean, I'm just wondering, I'm literally the only person coming up with solutions here and you're all trashing me, but do you have any better ideas? Or do you want the obesity levels to keep going up until we're at 100% obesity? What is your great idea for solving the problem?

    (Let's ignore the fact that the entire food-rationing thing started as a criticism of lockdowns in the first place and wasn't even meant to be serious!)
    Also, Prohibition didn't entirely ban alcohol. It was allowed for medicinal and sacramental use. I think Okrent even discusses this in his book. In fact, you could even HAVE alcohol, there were just restrictions on the sale, production, and transport. It is more similar to what you're proposing than you seem to realize.

    That's kind of the difference between Zoom Thanksgiving and actual Thanksgiving, isn't it?

    The concept of junk-food speakeasies is pretty amusing though. Wasn't that an episode of The Simpsons?
  • GaleHawkins
    GaleHawkins Posts: 8,159 Member
    edited January 2021
    https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/21/health/fat-but-fit-study-scli-intl-wellness/index.html

    Sounds like body fat is a factor of concern when it comes to health.
  • Theoldguy1
    Theoldguy1 Posts: 2,493 Member
    https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/21/health/fat-but-fit-study-scli-intl-wellness/index.html

    Sounds like body fat is a factor of concern when it comes to health.

    Nothing new here. Glad there are more sources researching this and calling it out.
  • LoveyChar
    LoveyChar Posts: 4,336 Member
    qhob_89 wrote: »
    qhob_89 wrote: »
    I’m trying to understand why someone who takes such issue with the government dictating how you can socialize, would be okay with them taking such control over things like “mandatory food rationing.” It’s an asinine suggestion that fining or throwing people in jail for being obese will really prevent that problem. People still get DUIs. People still use heroin. People still shoplift. The government rationing our basic needs would create far larger problems while putting very little dent in an obesity problem.

    I'm trying to understand why someone who supports making socializing and working illegal in order to "save lives" would NOT support mandatory food rationing, fines, etc. in order to save lives. Socialization is a basic need and working for a living is necessary, yet both have been rationed for the past year while putting very little dent in our COVID problem. It's necessary to health to socialize, whereas it isn't necessary to health to be obese (quite the opposite actually).

    Of course I don't support fining people for being obese or rationing food, even if it saves lives. But I also don't support making socializing and work illegal to save lives. I'm just pointing out an inconsistency in logic here. Why do most people think the one is ok, but not the other?
    qhob_89 wrote: »
    As I already mentioned, I’m someone who also lives with PTSD and OCD, so I say this with the best of intentions. If you are not already doing so, I urge you to get in touch with your mental health provider. In a couple posts you’ve expressed you’re struggling with your mental health and the lack of socialization that usually helps you cope.

    What mental health provider? A mental health provider over Zoom who is already booked with patients because 25% of the country now want to kill themselves? (https://qz.com/1892349/cdc-depression-and-anxiety-rises-for-us-adults-since-covid-19/) And what advice are they going to give? Getting out and about, and establishing social connections, is a necessary part of treatment for both PTSD and OCD. If that's not allowed, then what advice can they possibly give?
    I feel like you’ve gone down what I like to call “the rabbit hole” and have found comfort in focusing on the fixable “obesity” issue being the larger issue than the overall pandemic and struggle that’s come with it. The “fat people” have given you something to focus on and blame and it’s not healthy or helpful for you, or others.

    No, I'm just pointing out facts that people don't want to hear even though they're supported by evidence. Don't mistake someone having an unpopular opinion with that opinion being based on emotions rather than facts. I think it's a testament to the normalization of obesity in our culture that people are clinging on to their right to be obese much more tightly than they are on their right to socialize and work.

    ypyfbth4q3jp.jpeg

    Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs... socialization is not a basic need. Is working necessary? For most in the general public, absolutely. However, nobody has made working illegal. You still never clarified where you live. I live in Chicagoland/suburbs and we’ve had a significant amount of “lockdowns” and it’s not as bad as you keep mentioning. Since March 2020 I’ve gone to the grocery store multiple times a week and I’ve socialized with a few friends (responsibly) and never had an issue. Everything I’ve seen about people getting arrested or fined for violating social distancing/stay-at-home orders/lockdowns is due to large gatherings, events, etc. If anything more extreme then it’s been in large cities such as NYC.
    I’m a mental health professional. Mental health providers have always been backed up or there’s been lack of access. (That’s a whole different topic!) If you’ve been diagnosed with PTSD/OCD I assume you have a provider. Getting out and about and socialization have never been a part of my treatment plan. So that’s not a one size fits all necessity for PTSD or OCD treatment. If I’m being honest, I’ve actually done better not getting out and socializing everyday. If socialization is part of your treatment plan, zoom/FaceTime/Skype with your friends, plan to see a couple of them- wear mask and social distance. Talk to the cashier at the grocery store, get a job at the grocery store and socialize with the general public.
    I’m not obese, so I’m not defending “my right to be obese” over “my right to socialize.” I haven’t seen anyone on this thread do so. I defended the idea that people should have access to food (and basic needs) without that being rationed. As you see in the pyramid, health and safety trump socialization and sense of connection. Do I like that there are lockdowns and possible fines for gatherings? No. But that’s how things are being handled, so I deal with it. There are many people unsatisfied with that idea, just as there were people upset over seatbelt laws and mandatory health insurance. But what do we do? We carry on and accept it. [/quote]

    I know you claim to be a mental health professional but you lost all credibility and I'm embarrassed for you. My Bachelor's Degree is in psychology. Let me educate you! All aspects under the color yellow titled Love and Belonging fall under socialization, every single one. Not seeing the actual word 'socialization' must have confused you tremendously. Friendship,intimacy, family, sense of connection[ that fall under the yellow category of 'Love and Belonging' all require socialization. Socialization is a need in order to achieve esteem and self-actualization. Are you able to understand that? Maybe you should read research on how a lack of socialization can...
  • LoveyChar
    LoveyChar Posts: 4,336 Member
    qhob_89 wrote: »
    qhob_89 wrote: »
    I’m trying to understand why someone who takes such issue with the government dictating how you can socialize, would be okay with them taking such control over things like “mandatory food rationing.” It’s an asinine suggestion that fining or throwing people in jail for being obese will really prevent that problem. People still get DUIs. People still use heroin. People still shoplift. The government rationing our basic needs would create far larger problems while putting very little dent in an obesity problem.

    I'm trying to understand why someone who supports making socializing and working illegal in order to "save lives" would NOT support mandatory food rationing, fines, etc. in order to save lives. Socialization is a basic need and working for a living is necessary, yet both have been rationed for the past year while putting very little dent in our COVID problem. It's necessary to health to socialize, whereas it isn't necessary to health to be obese (quite the opposite actually).

    Of course I don't support fining people for being obese or rationing food, even if it saves lives. But I also don't support making socializing and work illegal to save lives. I'm just pointing out an inconsistency in logic here. Why do most people think the one is ok, but not the other?
    qhob_89 wrote: »
    As I already mentioned, I’m someone who also lives with PTSD and OCD, so I say this with the best of intentions. If you are not already doing so, I urge you to get in touch with your mental health provider. In a couple posts you’ve expressed you’re struggling with your mental health and the lack of socialization that usually helps you cope.

    What mental health provider? A mental health provider over Zoom who is already booked with patients because 25% of the country now want to kill themselves? (https://qz.com/1892349/cdc-depression-and-anxiety-rises-for-us-adults-since-covid-19/) And what advice are they going to give? Getting out and about, and establishing social connections, is a necessary part of treatment for both PTSD and OCD. If that's not allowed, then what advice can they possibly give?
    I feel like you’ve gone down what I like to call “the rabbit hole” and have found comfort in focusing on the fixable “obesity” issue being the larger issue than the overall pandemic and struggle that’s come with it. The “fat people” have given you something to focus on and blame and it’s not healthy or helpful for you, or others.

    No, I'm just pointing out facts that people don't want to hear even though they're supported by evidence. Don't mistake someone having an unpopular opinion with that opinion being based on emotions rather than facts. I think it's a testament to the normalization of obesity in our culture that people are clinging on to their right to be obese much more tightly than they are on their right to socialize and work.

    ypyfbth4q3jp.jpeg

    Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs... socialization is not a basic need. Is working necessary? For most in the general public, absolutely. However, nobody has made working illegal. You still never clarified where you live. I live in Chicagoland/suburbs and we’ve had a significant amount of “lockdowns” and it’s not as bad as you keep mentioning. Since March 2020 I’ve gone to the grocery store multiple times a week and I’ve socialized with a few friends (responsibly) and never had an issue. Everything I’ve seen about people getting arrested or fined for violating social distancing/stay-at-home orders/lockdowns is due to large gatherings, events, etc. If anything more extreme then it’s been in large cities such as NYC.
    I’m a mental health professional. Mental health providers have always been backed up or there’s been lack of access. (That’s a whole different topic!) If you’ve been diagnosed with PTSD/OCD I assume you have a provider. Getting out and about and socialization have never been a part of my treatment plan. So that’s not a one size fits all necessity for PTSD or OCD treatment. If I’m being honest, I’ve actually done better not getting out and socializing everyday. If socialization is part of your treatment plan, zoom/FaceTime/Skype with your friends, plan to see a couple of them- wear mask and social distance. Talk to the cashier at the grocery store, get a job at the grocery store and socialize with the general public.
    I’m not obese, so I’m not defending “my right to be obese” over “my right to socialize.” I haven’t seen anyone on this thread do so. I defended the idea that people should have access to food (and basic needs) without that being rationed. As you see in the pyramid, health and safety trump socialization and sense of connection. Do I like that there are lockdowns and possible fines for gatherings? No. But that’s how things are being handled, so I deal with it. There are many people unsatisfied with that idea, just as there were people upset over seatbelt laws and mandatory health insurance. But what do we do? We carry on and accept it. [/quote]
    qhob_89 wrote: »
    qhob_89 wrote: »
    I’m trying to understand why someone who takes such issue with the government dictating how you can socialize, would be okay with them taking such control over things like “mandatory food rationing.” It’s an asinine suggestion that fining or throwing people in jail for being obese will really prevent that problem. People still get DUIs. People still use heroin. People still shoplift. The government rationing our basic needs would create far larger problems while putting very little dent in an obesity problem.

    I'm trying to understand why someone who supports making socializing and working illegal in order to "save lives" would NOT support mandatory food rationing, fines, etc. in order to save lives. Socialization is a basic need and working for a living is necessary, yet both have been rationed for the past year while putting very little dent in our COVID problem. It's necessary to health to socialize, whereas it isn't necessary to health to be obese (quite the opposite actually).



    I know you claim to be a mental health professional but you lost all credibility and I'm embarrassed for you. My Bachelor's Degree is in psychology. Let me educate you! All aspects under the color yellow titled Love and Belonging fall under socialization, every single one. Not seeing the actual word 'socialization' must have confused you tremendously. Friendship,intimacy, family, sense of connection[ that fall under the yellow category of 'Love and Belonging' all require socialization. Socialization is a need in order to achieve esteem and self-actualization. Are you able to understand that? Maybe you should read research on how a lack of socialization can...
  • MaltedTea
    MaltedTea Posts: 6,286 Member
    Not entirely sure what's being discussed here but I'm always down for usage of Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs in regular conversation so kudos @LovelyChar
  • qhob_89
    qhob_89 Posts: 105 Member
    edited January 2021
    I thought of this thread when this article came across my feed on Google. I hope the poster, SiberianT, does not return. She wasn’t cool.


    https://www.nbcnews.com/think/amp/ncna1255408

    Thanks for sharing this article! Found it interesting, and so fitting for the recent topic in this thread.
    I was just given a (possible) opportunity to get vaccinated (military) and declined since I feel like the roll out has been a bit butchered. I know part of this is due to demand. But knowing my 70+ y/o MIL has been really looking forward to getting vaccinated but hasn’t been given the opportunity, (she was going to look further into this), it didn’t feel right to take a really valuable vaccine when there’s people who would have greater benefit at this time. At 31, no serious health conditions, overall “healthy” weight, unemployed, and no serious “high risk” factors... I felt there were others out there that could really benefit from it right now, and I could wait a bit longer until it becomes a bit more accessible. I’m all for a “fat person” having my dose! Lol
    ETA: I agree with your second statement as well...
  • gracegettingittogether
    gracegettingittogether Posts: 176 Member
    edited January 2021
    I thought of this thread when this article came across my feed on Google. I hope the poster, SiberianT, does not return. She wasn’t cool.


    https://www.nbcnews.com/think/amp/ncna1255408

    That sounds like a dangerous position to take because you disagree with someone.
  • AnnPT77
    AnnPT77 Posts: 34,052 Member
    My point was from that of compassion.

    I don't disagree with that at all, in fact I do agree. It's unreasonable and inappropriate to blame fat people for the pandemic, or for the restrictions.

    I just disagree with with some of the perspectives in the linked article, despite agreeing with its core point (as I read it) that it's appropriate for obese people to be at a higher priority for vaccinations than otherwise similar people who are not obese.

  • chantellezxc
    chantellezxc Posts: 55 Member
    edited February 2021
    kimny72 wrote: »
    I mean, I don't pay as much attention as I used to, but I don't see many (if any) magazines putting 350lb women on the cover, certainly not health or fashion related publications. Most "plus-size" models are just in the overweight range, and it's rare to see them on the cover of anything, except as a token "here, don't tell us we don't represent real women anymore, okay?" one off. There have been one or two actresses I can remember off the top of my head that did a lot of publicity at one point with the requisite admiration for their beauty, but no one holding them up as examples of good health.

    ETA: One of the reasons Ashley Graham gets so much media attention and controversy is because she is unique. Her weight is always being praised/criticized/argued about, and I'm not even sure if she is technically obese or not.

    I think they mean a Tess Holiday with those stats. It would make sense I remember for a short time a while ago she was on magazine covers and tv adds but she is definitely a good example of the body positivity gone too far.