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Thoughts on the “glamourizing/normalizing” obesity vs body positivity conversations
Replies
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My view on body positivity is that everybody has the right to feel comfortable in their own skin regardless of their size. Likewise, everybody should keep snarky, rude and insulting remarks to themselves. That includes those shaming people for being overweight and also those shaming people for NOT being overweight ('skinny b*tch'/'they need a cheeseburger' etc.)
Of course nobody should be shamed for their body, but with the obesity rate in the US over 40% (as well as eating disorders on the other end of the spectrum) it doesn't do anyone any good to stick our collective heads in the sand, say it's fine in the name of body positivity, and not address it;7 -
Mazintrov13 wrote: »We have an obesity problem in Australia too but the corona virus is no where near as out of control as it is in the US I think mainly because of the way our government handled it
The point about obesity relates to comorbidities/outcomes if one catches the virus, not the spread.
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I agree. I work in the ER in Los Angeles and see Covid patients every day. We are NOT seeing young healthy in shape people die. Most of the younger people with complications are either very obese or diabetic and uncontrolled. Some people told me they have no medical problems but then their blood sugar is 500. They did not know they were diabetic apparently or someone told them they were years ago and they ignored it.
Obesity is a huge problem when it comes to Covid. We need to focus on this instead of ignoring it.
I think the difference is that I'm not thinking that these people are selfish and subjecting ME to something, I'm thinking it's unfortunate that they're at higher risk.
Let's be real -- the average obese person probably isn't engaging in a "fat politic" or making points about "fat positivity." It's less a deliberate decision than genuine confusion about how to maintain a healthy weight or emotional issues that are preventing them from losing weight.
This isn't an issue of overweight people making the rest of us go through something. It's the result of a culture that is profoundly messed up about food and weight and obese people are currently experiencing some of the severe consequences of it.
When I was overweight, it wasn't because I wanted to be or because I'd somehow decided that being fat was really cool. It was literal confusion about what I needed to do combined with some "all or nothing" thinking about how punishing myself was the only way to be a normal weight.9 -
siberiantarragon wrote: »
There are cases of young, healthy, non-overweight people dying of COVID, but they're not the majority. Obesity is the biggest risk factor after age for dying of COVID, and 90+% of hospitalized patients have diagnosed underlying conditions (most of the underlying risk factors are obesity-related illnesses).
https://www.newsweek.com/obesity-covid-19-risk-coronavirus-hospitalization-1497791
One doesn't need to calculate the exact BMI of the people in those photos to be able to tell that they were obese, and in some cases morbidly obese. Even if they lost enough weight between when the photo was taken and now to not be obese anymore (which is very unlikely since their families likely would have submitted a newer photo to the news), being obese has long-term effects on health even after the weight is lost.
That's one of the reasons why I think all this virtue signaling about "if it saves just one life!" is dishonest. Millions of people die every year from preventable lifestyle-related diseases and yet those deaths are somehow less important than COVID deaths.
It's also weird that there aren't many studies on how much weight the average person gained during the pandemic even though this is a huge public health concern which will lead to preventable deaths.
I find it very curious that it's hard for me to find information on what percentage of COVID deaths could have been avoided with weight loss. We know that over 90% of people who died had pre-existing conditions, most of which are linked to obesity, but the nature of those pre-existing conditions likely varies by age. For example, a lot of the people who died were nursing home patients, who are probably less likely to be overweight since most overweight people don't survive into their 70s, 80s, 90s, etc. and appetite also generally reduces with age. But of the people who were younger, what percentage were overweight or obese? That's something I'm having a hard time finding data on and I find that to be strange.
In general, I'd say that it is hard to get reliable data on stuff like this in the midst of a pandemic. People in public health are working on THAT right now and a lot of data is probably still in a raw form to be used later.4 -
janejellyroll wrote: »I think the difference is that I'm not thinking that these people are selfish and subjecting ME to something, I'm thinking it's unfortunate that they're at higher risk.
Except in my case, they are subjecting me to something that negatively affects my health. I have pre-existing conditions (OCD and PTSD) which were made worse by the lockdowns, even to the extent of posing a risk to my life at some points. Based on the research I've read on COVID death rates and risk factors, my personal risk of dying from COVID, if I were to get it, is around 1 in 10,000. So the lockdowns aren't for me, they're for other people. And when those people don't do anything to reduce their risk so that we can get out of the lockdowns sooner, when they've been telling me all year "just get over it" when it comes to my own pre-existing conditions...yeah, it pisses me off.Let's be real -- the average obese person probably isn't engaging in a "fat politic" or making points about "fat positivity." It's less a deliberate decision than genuine confusion about how to maintain a healthy weight or emotional issues that are preventing them from losing weight.
This isn't an issue of overweight people making the rest of us go through something. It's the result of a culture that is profoundly messed up about food and weight and obese people are currently experiencing some of the severe consequences of it.
When I was overweight, it wasn't because I wanted to be or because I'd somehow decided that being fat was really cool. It was literal confusion about what I needed to do combined with some "all or nothing" thinking about how punishing myself was the only way to be a normal weight.
I don't really understand how, in 2021, people can still be confused about what they need to do to lose weight. Even if people can't afford to go to a doctor and ask, you can look up any government health-related website or even some place like WebMD and it will tell you what to do. There are even entire TV shows centered around weight loss that make it clear that it's just CICO.
From what I've observed, I think a lot of the problem is indifference and denial, which is enabled by a culture that normalizes obesity. There are people who know they need to lose weight, but they're putting it off because they don't see it as important and are busy with other things. There are people who don't care about their health. There are people who think they're a healthy weight even though they're overweight (and doctors that refuse to tell them they're overweight because of political correctness don't help here) or think "even though I'm overweight, I'm still active and healthy, so it can't be that dangerous." And then there are people who are in denial about how much they're eating because they don't actually stop to measure it out, and think "I eat nothing all day and I still can't lose weight!" When the larger culture is treating obesity as just a normal part of life, instead of treating it with the seriousness of, say, the dangers of smoking, then it's easy for people to just go on like this.
The fact that some lockdowns made outdoor exercise illegal to fight a virus that obese people are at more risk from, really says it all about how low obesity is on the list of public health priorities, and how normalized it is.
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siberiantarragon wrote: »
Except in my case, they are subjecting me to something that negatively affects my health. I have pre-existing conditions (OCD and PTSD) which were made worse by the lockdowns, even to the extent of posing a risk to my life at some points. Based on the research I've read on COVID death rates and risk factors, my personal risk of dying from COVID, if I were to get it, is around 1 in 10,000. So the lockdowns aren't for me, they're for other people. And when those people don't do anything to reduce their risk so that we can get out of the lockdowns sooner, when they've been telling me all year "just get over it" when it comes to my own pre-existing conditions...yeah, it pisses me off.
I don't really understand how, in 2021, people can still be confused about what they need to do to lose weight. Even if people can't afford to go to a doctor and ask, you can look up any government health-related website or even some place like WebMD and it will tell you what to do. There are even entire TV shows centered around weight loss that make it clear that it's just CICO.
From what I've observed, I think a lot of the problem is indifference and denial, which is enabled by a culture that normalizes obesity. There are people who know they need to lose weight, but they're putting it off because they don't see it as important and are busy with other things. There are people who don't care about their health. There are people who think they're a healthy weight even though they're overweight (and doctors that refuse to tell them they're overweight because of political correctness don't help here) or think "even though I'm overweight, I'm still active and healthy, so it can't be that dangerous." And then there are people who are in denial about how much they're eating because they don't actually stop to measure it out, and think "I eat nothing all day and I still can't lose weight!" When the larger culture is treating obesity as just a normal part of life, instead of treating it with the seriousness of, say, the dangers of smoking, then it's easy for people to just go on like this.
The fact that some lockdowns made outdoor exercise illegal to fight a virus that obese people are at more risk from, really says it all about how low obesity is on the list of public health priorities, and how normalized it is.
I'm not seeing anything where overweight or obese people are telling those with mental illnesses that they need to "get over it" so they can be safer. I think you're heavily personalizing public health messages. Which I get, this whole thing has been frustrating in many different ways, but I don't think seeing this as an obese people versus mental illness thing is warranted. To begin with, there is overlap between these two categories!
I get that you don't understand how anyone can be overweight. It's a common thing, but I promise you that logistical and mental obstacles to weight loss exist, including a lack of information about how CICO works or not understanding how to effectively implement it into one's life.
If everyone easily understood the things that you find easy to understand and implement about weight management, there wouldn't be a market for weight loss surgery or detox teas or fad diets or Slim Fast. These are all side effects of people either not understanding how weight loss happens or facing obstacles in implementing it in their own situation. I think this is much more of an issue that people deciding that being fat is rad and deciding to gain weight to spite the rest of us.9 -
janejellyroll wrote: »I'm not seeing anything where overweight or obese people are telling those with mental illnesses that they need to "get over it" so they can be safer. I think you're heavily personalizing public health messages. Which I get, this whole thing has been frustrating in many different ways, but I don't think seeing this as an obese people versus mental illness thing is warranted. To begin with, there is overlap between these two categories!
In discussions I've had, I've seen a lot of overlap between the people who tell anyone who is negatively affected by the lockdowns to "get over it," and the people who get offended when you suggest that people should take more personal responsibility for their own health before asking others to sacrifice for them. I'm not implying that anyone who holds these beliefs is obese, or anyone who doesn't hold these beliefs is not obese. (Ironically, I have several friends who are overweight/obese and agree with me about the obesity/COVID/personal responsibility thing.)I get that you don't understand how anyone can be overweight. It's a common thing, but I promise you that logistical and mental obstacles to weight loss exist, including a lack of information about how CICO works or not understanding how to effectively implement it into one's life.
I never said that I don't understand how anyone can be overweight. I just gave an entire paragraph of reasons why I think people stay overweight. I just said that I don't think lack of access to information is the reason. 20 or 30 years ago, sure, it was a lot harder to find information back then, maybe that would have been a factor. But today, the information is out there, free and available. If someone doesn't look it up, it's because they don't want to know.
And again, regardless of what the reason is why people keep gaining weight, is it not the government's job to fix this public health crisis? Why are governments and our society in general enabling the obesity crisis instead of trying to fix it? If the answer actually is just lack of knowledge, that would be a pretty easy fix, wouldn't it? Why aren't there huge billboards with this information everywhere, the same way there are billboards everywhere about wearing a mask or social distancing?
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siberiantarragon wrote: »
In discussions I've had, I've seen a lot of overlap between the people who tell anyone who is negatively affected by the lockdowns to "get over it," and the people who get offended when you suggest that people should take more personal responsibility for their own health before asking others to sacrifice for them. I'm not implying that anyone who holds these beliefs is obese, or anyone who doesn't hold these beliefs is not obese. (Ironically, I have several friends who are overweight/obese and agree with me about the obesity/COVID/personal responsibility thing.)
I never said that I don't understand how anyone can be overweight. I just gave an entire paragraph of reasons why I think people stay overweight. I just said that I don't think lack of access to information is the reason. 20 or 30 years ago, sure, it was a lot harder to find information back then, maybe that would have been a factor. But today, the information is out there, free and available. If someone doesn't look it up, it's because they don't want to know.
And again, regardless of what the reason is why people keep gaining weight, is it not the government's job to fix this public health crisis? Why are governments and our society in general enabling the obesity crisis instead of trying to fix it? If the answer actually is just lack of knowledge, that would be a pretty easy fix, wouldn't it? Why aren't there huge billboards with this information everywhere, the same way there are billboards everywhere about wearing a mask or social distancing?
There's a ton of information on weight loss out there and a lot of it is conflicting.
I think someone can be overweight AND think it's an issue of importance and still not be sure how to proceed. Or maybe they know how to do it, but implementing consistently is an issue. I guess what I'm saying is that I don't see this as an us/them issue and I don't think it's a consequence of fat being glamorized.
Daily here, we encounter people who know what to do and aren't quite sure how to do it (given the circumstances of their lives or particular emotional issues). There are also people who know what they want to do, but have inaccurate ideas of how it needs to be done that are either setting them back or causing them to spend energy on controlling irrelevant factors. We're in a society that makes it incredibly easy to consume more energy than our body needs. I can understand how some don't have grace to expend or don't want to expend grace, but I've been there and I think it's more complex than you're making it out to be.8 -
janejellyroll wrote: »
There's a ton of information on weight loss out there and a lot of it is conflicting.
I think someone can be overweight AND think it's an issue of importance and still not be sure how to proceed. Or maybe they know how to do it, but implementing consistently is an issue. I guess what I'm saying is that I don't see this as an us/them issue and I don't think it's a consequence of fat being glamorized.
Daily here, we encounter people who know what to do and aren't quite sure how to do it (given the circumstances of their lives or particular emotional issues). There are also people who know what they want to do, but have inaccurate ideas of how it needs to be done that are either setting them back or causing them to spend energy on controlling irrelevant factors. We're in a society that makes it incredibly easy to consume more energy than our body needs. I can understand how some don't have grace to expend or don't want to expend grace, but I've been there and I think it's more complex than you're making it out to be.
The corollation of obesity and a history of abuse, and of obesity with poverty, is stunning when you dig into it. The number of people in the US who don't have access to a primary care doctor, internet access, or a decent k-12 education as a result of poverty (either urban or rural) is also stunning.
I listened to a podcast comparing access to broadband internet in the US to other industrialized nations and it blew my mind!8 -
The corollation of obesity and a history of abuse, and of obesity with poverty, is stunning when you dig into it. The number of people in the US who don't have access to a primary care doctor, internet access, or a decent k-12 education as a result of poverty (either urban or rural) is also stunning.
I listened to a podcast comparing access to broadband internet in the US to other industrialized nations and it blew my mind!
As a consequence, I suspect that overweight/obese people are over-represented in the "essential worker" or "meet the public" workforce, when it comes to those outside strict total-PPE health care settings, especially. That appears to me to be true, based on the people in those jobs that I see around me, but I know that my eyesight's not a statistical sample.
I wonder if something like that could also play a role in over-representation of overweight/obese people among those dying of Covid in the US? There's IMU some evidence that higher viral load (loosely, getting more viral bits on/in you when exposed) relates to more severe cases of Covid. It would be interesting to know if those in essential/public-facing/low-PPE jobs are dying at disproportionate rates from the virus.
As someone mentioned above, I don't expect to see those more refined statistical analyses for quite a while yet, to explore questions like that, there currently being fatter fish right now for epidemiologists and their statistician buddies to be frying.4 -
janejellyroll wrote: »There's a ton of information on weight loss out there and a lot of it is conflicting.
There's a ton of conflicting information on the effectiveness of masks and social distancing, too, yet that's not considered to be an excuse for not wearing a mask or social distancing. People are supposed to "listen to the experts." So there's no reason why people can't listen to the experts when it comes to weight loss, too. Especially as the government and public health experts have way more consistent messaging on how to lose weight than they do on how to slow the spread of COVID.I think someone can be overweight AND think it's an issue of importance and still not be sure how to proceed. Or maybe they know how to do it, but implementing consistently is an issue. I guess what I'm saying is that I don't see this as an us/them issue and I don't think it's a consequence of fat being glamorized.
Daily here, we encounter people who know what to do and aren't quite sure how to do it (given the circumstances of their lives or particular emotional issues). There are also people who know what they want to do, but have inaccurate ideas of how it needs to be done that are either setting them back or causing them to spend energy on controlling irrelevant factors. We're in a society that makes it incredibly easy to consume more energy than our body needs. I can understand how some don't have grace to expend or don't want to expend grace, but I've been there and I think it's more complex than you're making it out to be.
If someone is on MyFitnessPal they're making an effort to lose weight and researching how to do it, so, they're not who I'm talking about. Those are people who are being proactive about their health and trying to be better. I'm talking about the people who aren't making any effort to lose weight, and/or even get offended at the thought that their obesity is a health problem, yet expect everyone else to sacrifice in order to protect their health.The corollation of obesity and a history of abuse, and of obesity with poverty, is stunning when you dig into it.
The pre-existing conditions I have were also caused by childhood abuse. Yet apparently I have no right to expect anyone to accommodate my health needs, and should just "get over" having these health problems at all.The number of people in the US who don't have access to a primary care doctor, internet access, or a decent k-12 education as a result of poverty (either urban or rural) is also stunning.
I listened to a podcast comparing access to broadband internet in the US to other industrialized nations and it blew my mind!
You're seriously suggesting that the majority of cases of obesity in America are among people who have no internet access or education? Because that's not what I see. Plenty of educated and middle-class or richer people are obese. Here are some statistics from the CDC on the matter.
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/products/databriefs/db50.htm
"Among men, obesity prevalence is generally similar at all income levels, however, among non-Hispanic black and Mexican-American men those with higher income are more likely to be obese than those with low income.
Higher income women are less likely to be obese than low income women, but most obese women are not low income.
Between 1988–1994 and 2007–2008 the prevalence of obesity increased in adults at all income and education levels."
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siberiantarragon wrote: »
There's a ton of conflicting information on the effectiveness of masks and social distancing, too, yet that's not considered to be an excuse for not wearing a mask or social distancing. People are supposed to "listen to the experts." So there's no reason why people can't listen to the experts when it comes to weight loss, too. Especially as the government and public health experts have way more consistent messaging on how to lose weight than they do on how to slow the spread of COVID.
If someone is on MyFitnessPal they're making an effort to lose weight and researching how to do it, so, they're not who I'm talking about. Those are people who are being proactive about their health and trying to be better. I'm talking about the people who aren't making any effort to lose weight, and/or even get offended at the thought that their obesity is a health problem, yet expect everyone else to sacrifice in order to protect their health.
The pre-existing conditions I have were also caused by childhood abuse. Yet apparently I have no right to expect anyone to accommodate my health needs, and should just "get over" having these health problems at all.
You're seriously suggesting that the majority of cases of obesity in America are among people who have no internet access or education? Because that's not what I see. Plenty of educated and middle-class or richer people are obese. Here are some statistics from the CDC on the matter.
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/products/databriefs/db50.htm
"Among men, obesity prevalence is generally similar at all income levels, however, among non-Hispanic black and Mexican-American men those with higher income are more likely to be obese than those with low income.
Higher income women are less likely to be obese than low income women, but most obese women are not low income.
Between 1988–1994 and 2007–2008 the prevalence of obesity increased in adults at all income and education levels."
I didn't say anything about what percentage of obese people were anything, I was just adding to the conversation with Jane. I'm sorry if someone has told you to just get over your health conditions.5 -
siberiantarragon wrote: »
There's a ton of conflicting information on the effectiveness of masks and social distancing, too, yet that's not considered to be an excuse for not wearing a mask or social distancing. People are supposed to "listen to the experts." So there's no reason why people can't listen to the experts when it comes to weight loss, too. Especially as the government and public health experts have way more consistent messaging on how to lose weight than they do on how to slow the spread of COVID.
If someone is on MyFitnessPal they're making an effort to lose weight and researching how to do it, so, they're not who I'm talking about. Those are people who are being proactive about their health and trying to be better. I'm talking about the people who aren't making any effort to lose weight, and/or even get offended at the thought that their obesity is a health problem, yet expect everyone else to sacrifice in order to protect their health.
The pre-existing conditions I have were also caused by childhood abuse. Yet apparently I have no right to expect anyone to accommodate my health needs, and should just "get over" having these health problems at all.
You're seriously suggesting that the majority of cases of obesity in America are among people who have no internet access or education? Because that's not what I see. Plenty of educated and middle-class or richer people are obese. Here are some statistics from the CDC on the matter.
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/products/databriefs/db50.htm
"Among men, obesity prevalence is generally similar at all income levels, however, among non-Hispanic black and Mexican-American men those with higher income are more likely to be obese than those with low income.
Higher income women are less likely to be obese than low income women, but most obese women are not low income.
Between 1988–1994 and 2007–2008 the prevalence of obesity increased in adults at all income and education levels."
I don't feel like I'm sacrificing because of obese people. I actually don't even understand how one would think that. I'm sacrificing for everyone, and especially for the elderly.
Obesity may lead to more severe outcomes, but it isn't causing this pandemic. This virus is wreaking havoc worldwide, even in countries with lower obesity rates.8 -
As a consequence, I suspect that overweight/obese people are over-represented in the "essential worker" or "meet the public" workforce, when it comes to those outside strict total-PPE health care settings, especially. That appears to me to be true, based on the people in those jobs that I see around me, but I know that my eyesight's not a statistical sample.
I wonder if something like that could also play a role in over-representation of overweight/obese people among those dying of Covid in the US? There's IMU some evidence that higher viral load (loosely, getting more viral bits on/in you when exposed) relates to more severe cases of Covid. It would be interesting to know if those in essential/public-facing/low-PPE jobs are dying at disproportionate rates from the virus.
As someone mentioned above, I don't expect to see those more refined statistical analyses for quite a while yet, to explore questions like that, there currently being fatter fish right now for epidemiologists and their statistician buddies to be frying.
Yep, that's the kind of thing I was thinking of earlier when I said there's a correlation but they don't know for sure the cause. It seems logical that the obesity itself puts you at some kind of disadvantage, but until doctors find a clear physical mechanism for why, there's no way to know if it is primarily physical or a smaller factor.
It's the same with how hard the virus is hitting the black community in the US. Is it because more of them are essential workers still spending all day in public? Is it because they are more likely to be obese? Is it because they are more likely to get poor medical care? Are they more likely to live in densely populated areas? Take public transportation? Is there another condition those with recent African heritage are genetically predisposed to that hampers their ability to fight off the virus?
Anyway, I hope we get these answers at some point, and I hope folks out there who are obese get the message that there are myriad reasons to get to a healthy weight as soon as possible, both for them personally and for society in general.3 -
Yep, that's the kind of thing I was thinking of earlier when I said there's a correlation but they don't know for sure the cause. It seems logical that the obesity itself puts you at some kind of disadvantage, but until doctors find a clear physical mechanism for why, there's no way to know if it is primarily physical or a smaller factor.
It's the same with how hard the virus is hitting the black community in the US. Is it because more of them are essential workers still spending all day in public? Is it because they are more likely to be obese? Is it because they are more likely to get poor medical care? Are they more likely to live in densely populated areas? Take public transportation? Is there another condition those with recent African heritage are genetically predisposed to that hampers their ability to fight off the virus?
Anyway, I hope we get these answers at some point, and I hope folks out there who are obese get the message that there are myriad reasons to get to a healthy weight as soon as possible, both for them personally and for society in general.
The bolded is a particularly provocative issue, to me, espeically in context of the fact that Africa (as an overwhelming overgeneralization) so far seems to have had less severity/contagion than many people had expected at the start of all this. I don't I expect we'll tease out even refined, nuanced correlations for quite a while yet, let alone causes. Yes, there is less obesity in Africa. There are also lots of other differences, so I doubt the answers are as simple as bodyweight.2 -
siberiantarragon wrote: »
There's a ton of conflicting information on the effectiveness of masks and social distancing, too, yet that's not considered to be an excuse for not wearing a mask or social distancing. People are supposed to "listen to the experts." So there's no reason why people can't listen to the experts when it comes to weight loss, too. Especially as the government and public health experts have way more consistent messaging on how to lose weight than they do on how to slow the spread of COVID.
If someone is on MyFitnessPal they're making an effort to lose weight and researching how to do it, so, they're not who I'm talking about. Those are people who are being proactive about their health and trying to be better. I'm talking about the people who aren't making any effort to lose weight, and/or even get offended at the thought that their obesity is a health problem, yet expect everyone else to sacrifice in order to protect their health.
The pre-existing conditions I have were also caused by childhood abuse. Yet apparently I have no right to expect anyone to accommodate my health needs, and should just "get over" having these health problems at all.
You're seriously suggesting that the majority of cases of obesity in America are among people who have no internet access or education? Because that's not what I see. Plenty of educated and middle-class or richer people are obese. Here are some statistics from the CDC on the matter.
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/products/databriefs/db50.htm
"Among men, obesity prevalence is generally similar at all income levels, however, among non-Hispanic black and Mexican-American men those with higher income are more likely to be obese than those with low income.
Higher income women are less likely to be obese than low income women, but most obese women are not low income.
Between 1988–1994 and 2007–2008 the prevalence of obesity increased in adults at all income and education levels."
Nobody here is suggesting that you need to "get over" your particular issues or that you're choosing them. I understand you've received that message elsewhere, but I think people here get that nobody chooses OCD or PTSD. What I'm suggesting is that obesity is a complex situation where it's also not realistic to expect people who may be struggling in other ways -- including mental health or poverty -- to just "get over."
They're not choosing to be obese to spite us or to draw this thing out. And despite the presence of obese people throughout the economic classes in the US, it IS more common among people who have fewer resources. Two things can be true: obesity is increasingly a problem at all economic levels and obesity can be a challenge for those in poverty.
I don't know if there any many people who aren't make any effort at all to ever manage their weight. My experience as an overweight person was that I tried a bunch of things before I found a sustainable method. I spent a ton of time and effort on different strategies. It's what I see in the overweight and obese people in my life as well. Obviously that's anecdotal, but culturally and economically it certainly looks like a LOT of obese and overweight people are trying different things to manage their weight. It's a whole industry.
Again, I get that this whole situation has been a very particular kind of hell for those of us with particular mental health needs. I don't know OCD or PTSD very well, but I and several of my family members having anxiety disorder and I also have family members who are recovering addicts. A lot of us are missing the connections we're used to or feeling trapped or having the lack of control contribute to struggles we'd be feeling anyway. I'm not sure obesity and the mental patterns that lead to it are a completely different bucket. I'm not saying that everyone who is obese is mentally ill, but just like someone can't tell me to look at statistics and be realistic about the possibility of harm when I'm having a panic attack (well, I mean, they CAN, but it isn't going to stop the panic attack), I don't know if it's realistic to expect a huge chunk of the population to completely overhaul their meal planning, comfort mechanisms, and patterns around food intake during a economic and health crisis.
If "get over it" worked for obesity, nobody would be obese.8 -
I don't feel like I'm sacrificing because of obese people. I actually don't even understand how one would think that. I'm sacrificing for everyone, and especially for the elderly.
Obesity may lead to more severe outcomes, but it isn't causing this pandemic. This virus is wreaking havoc worldwide, even in countries with lower obesity rates.
Yes, if anyone I'm thinking of my grandmother and my high risk little sister (and the populations they represent).5 -
The corollation of obesity and a history of abuse, and of obesity with poverty, is stunning when you dig into it. The number of people in the US who don't have access to a primary care doctor, internet access, or a decent k-12 education as a result of poverty (either urban or rural) is also stunning.
I listened to a podcast comparing access to broadband internet in the US to other industrialized nations and it blew my mind!
Yes, and I think these all overlap to make things harder. Lack of a primary care doctor makes everything about health care harder and it means you're probably not getting consistent messages about your weight and its impact on your health. Internet access makes it harder in general to get information about weight management. And poor education complicates any effort to deliver a baseline of health/nutritional information to young people (not that we do so great even with the kids getting decent schooling).
The resources and information that a lot of us take for granted aren't available to everyone.4 -
Lol well when our leader defies wearing proper equipment and calls it a hoax, you can see why it spreads so fast.Mazintrov13 wrote: »We have an obesity problem in Australia too but the corona virus is no where near as out of control as it is in the US I think mainly because of the way our government handled it
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10 -
[quote="janejellyroll;c-45620287There's a ton of information on weight loss out there and a lot of it is conflicting.[/quote]
, I don't know if it's realistic to expect a huge chunk of the population to completely overhaul their meal planning, comfort mechanisms, and patterns around food intake during a economic and health crisis.
If "get over it" worked for obesity, nobody would be obese. [/quote]
I think the response to that would be, is it realistic to expect people to lose their livelihoods, homes, sanity and families to lower risk, without pointing out that there are also other targeted ways to lower risk as well? That’s what bothers me about all this. There’s not an equal standard being applied. Apparently people are “irresponsible” for doing things to alleviate their suffering caused by the loss of the things mentioned above, but people aren’t being called “irresponsible” for not personally doing what they can to lower their risk of getting ill and using scarce medical resources. That is to say, one set of risk lowering actions are deemed so important as to cause great wide spread and long lasting effects and the other set all but ignored. Standards have to be applied fairly, otherwise they aren’t standards but just bias, which is not scientific.
I say this as an obese woman, with vulnerable pneumonia scarred lungs. If I have a bad response to Covid, should I get it, I know that in some degree, I could have taken actions to lessen the severity. In fact, my brother in law physician who treats Covid patients every day, did tell me at the outset of all this, that being so overweight did put me at higher risk, while my older and in shape parents risk was much lower, based on how patients were responding in the hospital.7 -
I don't feel like I'm sacrificing because of obese people. I actually don't even understand how one would think that. I'm sacrificing for everyone, and especially for the elderly.
Obesity may lead to more severe outcomes, but it isn't causing this pandemic. This virus is wreaking havoc worldwide, even in countries with lower obesity rates.
Countries with lower obesity rates are having much better outcomes. The death rates are much lower in Japan, South Korea, and China, than they are in North America and Europe. This is despite the fact that Japan and South Korea have had fewer restrictions than we do, and even China, after the initial lockdown, started having fewer restrictions than we do. Even developing countries aren't having as much of a problem with COVID-19 as some expected they would, and are actually having a lot more deaths caused by lockdowns than by the virus.
Elderly people also aren't generally in the workforce and are better able to self-isolate than younger people. So they're probably deriving less benefit from the mandatory lockdowns than high-risk younger people are. Also, most of the elderly people who died were in long-term care facilities, which were already self-contained (although they really dropped the ball on containing the virus).Yep, that's the kind of thing I was thinking of earlier when I said there's a correlation but they don't know for sure the cause. It seems logical that the obesity itself puts you at some kind of disadvantage, but until doctors find a clear physical mechanism for why, there's no way to know if it is primarily physical or a smaller factor.
Researchers already have a pretty good idea of why it's more deadly for obese people. It isn't some big medical mystery. COVID-19 is a disease that primarily attacks the respiratory system and blood vessels, and those are systems that are compromised by obesity. Also, obesity impairs immune function in general (that's why on My 600-Pound Life, Dr. Now often tells the patients that even a cold could kill them at their weight). Here is an article that goes into a detailed explanation of why obesity is such a big risk factor for COVID-19 death.
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/09/why-covid-19-more-deadly-people-obesity-even-if-theyre-youngjanejellyroll wrote: »Nobody here is suggesting that you need to "get over" your particular issues or that you're choosing them. I understand you've received that message elsewhere, but I think people here get that nobody chooses OCD or PTSD. What I'm suggesting is that obesity is a complex situation where it's also not realistic to expect people who may be struggling in other ways -- including mental health or poverty -- to just "get over."
I'm not saying it's realistic to just get over it. Especially not when the lockdowns seem designed to make people obese -- making people depressed and anxious, taking away all other distractions, banning or discouraging outdoor exercise, etc. A lot of the blame I have is towards the public health experts, really. They should have made the "lose weight" messaging on par with the "stay home" and "wear a mask" messaging, if they really wanted to reduce deaths. But they didn't, and the reason why is probably a combination of our culture of normalizing obesity, and political correctness.
Here's a comparison that maybe will cause people to understand what I'm saying about why this "normalizing obesity" thing upsets me so much. Let's say you have a relative who is a hoarder. Every year, you spend a week of your vacation time helping them clean out their house to make it livable. You also have contamination OCD, so this takes a huge mental toll on you, but they don't care and even mock you for having OCD in the first place. By the end of the next year, they've hoarded it again and are nagging you to help them clean it out again. At a certain point, you're going to say "sorry, I hope that you can figure out your hoarding disorder, but I've reached my limit and this isn't my responsibility" and just refuse to do it. Then imagine that everyone around you calls you a "psychopathic murderer" for not helping them anymore. That's how I feel about this whole thing.They're not choosing to be obese to spite us or to draw this thing out.
People who want to have in-person social interaction aren't doing that to spite people or draw things out either, yet they're called "psychopathic murderers."I don't know if it's realistic to expect a huge chunk of the population to completely overhaul their meal planning, comfort mechanisms, and patterns around food intake during a economic and health crisis.
It was considered realistic to expect a huge chunk of the population to stop socializing, working, and getting a proper education indefinitely. Losing weight is a much more realistic (and healthy) goal than those.8 -
janejellyroll wrote: »
There's a ton of information on weight loss out there and a lot of it is conflicting.
Information on weight loss is not conflicting. Virtually anything you see on weight lose involves consuming fewer calories than one burns.
Obviously different ways to go about it but that is the message.8 -
janejellyroll wrote: »
I think the difference is that I'm not thinking that these people are selfish and subjecting ME to something, I'm thinking it's unfortunate that they're at higher risk.
Those with preventable comorbidities are subjecting you to something.
If someone that was an obese smoker quit smoking and started losing weight at the start of this and got Covid now their chances of needing ER or even hospital care would be decreased freeing up medical resources which are in short supply in many parts of the US.
I'm a strong believer in taking care of yourself to fight off illness. A few years back I was hospitalized for a week with 4 IV's in my arms due to a Sepsis infection. I was fortunate enough that I was at a normal weight, long time exerciser and did not smoke. One of my nurses was a casual acquaintance from the gym. He told me after I recovered most people that had Sepsis as bad as I did when I arrived at the hospital at best had strokes, heart attacks, kidney failure or at worst left the hospital in a body bag as a result.
Self care is important and impacts society.6 -
siberiantarragon wrote: »
Countries with lower obesity rates are having much better outcomes. The death rates are much lower in Japan, South Korea, and China, than they are in North America and Europe. This is despite the fact that Japan and South Korea have had fewer restrictions than we do, and even China, after the initial lockdown, started having fewer restrictions than we do. Even developing countries aren't having as much of a problem with COVID-19 as some expected they would, and are actually having a lot more deaths caused by lockdowns than by the virus.
Elderly people also aren't generally in the workforce and are better able to self-isolate than younger people. So they're probably deriving less benefit from the mandatory lockdowns than high-risk younger people are. Also, most of the elderly people who died were in long-term care facilities, which were already self-contained (although they really dropped the ball on containing the virus).
Researchers already have a pretty good idea of why it's more deadly for obese people. It isn't some big medical mystery. COVID-19 is a disease that primarily attacks the respiratory system and blood vessels, and those are systems that are compromised by obesity. Also, obesity impairs immune function in general (that's why on My 600-Pound Life, Dr. Now often tells the patients that even a cold could kill them at their weight). Here is an article that goes into a detailed explanation of why obesity is such a big risk factor for COVID-19 death.
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/09/why-covid-19-more-deadly-people-obesity-even-if-theyre-young
I'm not saying it's realistic to just get over it. Especially not when the lockdowns seem designed to make people obese -- making people depressed and anxious, taking away all other distractions, banning or discouraging outdoor exercise, etc. A lot of the blame I have is towards the public health experts, really. They should have made the "lose weight" messaging on par with the "stay home" and "wear a mask" messaging, if they really wanted to reduce deaths. But they didn't, and the reason why is probably a combination of our culture of normalizing obesity, and political correctness.
Here's a comparison that maybe will cause people to understand what I'm saying about why this "normalizing obesity" thing upsets me so much. Let's say you have a relative who is a hoarder. Every year, you spend a week of your vacation time helping them clean out their house to make it livable. You also have contamination OCD, so this takes a huge mental toll on you, but they don't care and even mock you for having OCD in the first place. By the end of the next year, they've hoarded it again and are nagging you to help them clean it out again. At a certain point, you're going to say "sorry, I hope that you can figure out your hoarding disorder, but I've reached my limit and this isn't my responsibility" and just refuse to do it. Then imagine that everyone around you calls you a "psychopathic murderer" for not helping them anymore. That's how I feel about this whole thing.
People who want to have in-person social interaction aren't doing that to spite people or draw things out either, yet they're called "psychopathic murderers."
It was considered realistic to expect a huge chunk of the population to stop socializing, working, and getting a proper education indefinitely. Losing weight is a much more realistic (and healthy) goal than those.
The places that you mentioned as having lower death rates also locked down, in some cases way more than we ever did. They are also better about wearing masks.
In short, they did a much better job of controlling the virus.
You mentioned Japan.....despite it's lower
obesity rate, they are on the verge of declaring a virus emergency due to soaring cases again. Of course it would be better if people lost weight. But obesity isn't the only thing driving this right now. Masks and social distancing messages are WAY more important at this point.
I haven't seen or heard the psychopathic killer comments. I'm sorry if you have, because I don't believe that either.11 -
As a consequence, I suspect that overweight/obese people are over-represented in the "essential worker" or "meet the public" workforce, when it comes to those outside strict total-PPE health care settings, especially. That appears to me to be true, based on the people in those jobs that I see around me, but I know that my eyesight's not a statistical sample.
Yeah, almost certainly.
IME (in a major US city), obesity is really socially disadvantaged and also less common among those who tend to be college graduates, to live in safer/nicer areas, and to have jobs that can be done from home. Obesity is more common among those less well off, who are more likely to have "essential" jobs.
Age is by far the biggest risk factor for covid and countries with less obesity have done lockdowns (more so than in many higher obesity states in the US), so the pretense that we are shutting down inside restaurant service or limiting the number of people who can be in spaces due to the obese is of course untrue anyway.
I always wonder what people mean by "lockdowns" in the US in that most of the job loss is due to people changing what they do, not things being intentionally shut down (although we should bail out restaurants). Here in Chicago all businesses but inside restaurants and bars are open. My social life has changed because of the lack of inside restaurant service and, mainly, lack of concerts and theater, but those didn't tend to be populated by the obese on average.I wonder if something like that could also play a role in over-representation of overweight/obese people among those dying of Covid in the US? There's IMU some evidence that higher viral load (loosely, getting more viral bits on/in you when exposed) relates to more severe cases of Covid. It would be interesting to know if those in essential/public-facing/low-PPE jobs are dying at disproportionate rates from the virus.
As someone mentioned above, I don't expect to see those more refined statistical analyses for quite a while yet, to explore questions like that, there currently being fatter fish right now for epidemiologists and their statistician buddies to be frying.
Could very well be.
Pretending it's all about the evil obese seems silly, however. (I also think we were initially told the "lockdowns" would be 4 weeks, also, which doesn't allow for much weight loss. I certainly didn't expect to be working from home this long.)7 -
I don't feel like I'm sacrificing because of obese people. I actually don't even understand how one would think that. I'm sacrificing for everyone, and especially for the elderly.
Obesity may lead to more severe outcomes, but it isn't causing this pandemic. This virus is wreaking havoc worldwide, even in countries with lower obesity rates.
Yes, this.5 -
gracegettingittogether wrote: »I think the response to that would be, is it realistic to expect people to lose their livelihoods, homes, sanity and families to lower risk, without pointing out that there are also other targeted ways to lower risk as well?
I'm fine with encouraging people to use this as a reason to lose weight. I thought the UK focus on that was sensible.
However, the claim that if not for obese people no one would have lost their livelihoods, etc., seems obviously disingenuous and a distorted blame focus. I mean, the UK did try to focus on weight loss, and the main people at risk are not the young generally healthy obese, but old people (even slightly older people in good shape like me (51) or my dad (thin, very active, 77). But sure, blame us for the fact that people in general are staying home even when stuff is open, as seems to be the case most places in the US.)
The biggest spreading stuff here in Chicago, where it has been bad for ages, is generally involving younger, in shape people, like big house parties (these are sell ticket events), among other things. Not the obese.8 -
gracegettingittogether wrote: »I think the response to that would be, is it realistic to expect people to lose their livelihoods, homes, sanity and families to lower risk, without pointing out that there are also other targeted ways to lower risk as well? That’s what bothers me about all this. There’s not an equal standard being applied. Apparently people are “irresponsible” for doing things to alleviate their suffering caused by the loss of the things mentioned above, but people aren’t being called “irresponsible” for not personally doing what they can to lower their risk of getting ill and using scarce medical resources. That is to say, one set of risk lowering actions are deemed so important as to cause great wide spread and long lasting effects and the other set all but ignored. Standards have to be applied fairly, otherwise they aren’t standards but just bias, which is not scientific.
Yes, this is what I was trying to say but you phrased it way better than I did.Theoldguy1 wrote: »Those with preventable comorbidities are subjecting you to something.
If someone that was an obese smoker quit smoking and started losing weight at the start of this and got Covid now their chances of needing ER or even hospital care would be decreased freeing up medical resources which are in short supply in many parts of the US.
Or, put a different way, if the hospitals really did get to the "rationing out medical care" stage of things, there would be a point where doctors would have to choose between saving a person who is dying of COVID because they are elderly, and a person who is dying of COVID because they are obese. The elderly person can't help the fact that they are elderly, but the obese person could have prevented being obese.The places that you mentioned as having lower death rates also locked down, in some cases way more than we ever did. They are also better about wearing masks.
In short, they did a much better job of controlling the virus.
You mentioned Japan.....despite it's lower
obesity rate, they are on the verge of declaring a virus emergency due to soaring cases again. Of course it would be better if people lost weight. But obesity isn't the only thing driving this right now. Masks and social distancing messages are WAY more important at this point.
South Korea didn't lock down at all until a couple of weeks ago.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/12/16/asia/south-korea-japan-coronavirus-intl-hnk/index.html
"South Korea warns of first potential lockdown as coronavirus numbers continue to rise"
The Japanese constitution actually prohibits lockdowns, so the government can only give recommendations, which many people don't follow, and which in any case are much less restrictive than measures in much of North America and Europe.
https://apnews.com/article/eb73f1170268ec2cdcf03e697365acb2
Q. DOES A STATE OF EMERGENCY CAUSE A TOKYO LOCKDOWN?
A. No, Abe and officials say Japan cannot legally enforce hard lockdowns. Public transportation is operating as normal. Most state of emergency measures are requests and instructions. Violators cannot be punished unless they fail to comply with orders related to storage or shipment of emergency relief goods and medical supplies.
Q. HOW EFFECTIVE IS THE MEASURE?
A. Abe on Wednesday repeated his request for the people to stay home and reduce interactions with others by up to 80%. But in Tokyo’s downtown Shibuya district, business was almost normal. Rush hour trains were still crowded and commuters were heading to work, though fewer people were seen in other areas of the capital.
I remember back in the spring people were attributing Japan and South Korea's success to mask-wearing. Now there are many regions with high levels of mask-wearing (I have never once seen anyone violating mask laws in my area) and they're still doing better than those areas. People also attributed their success to testing and tracing. Now the US and UK have the highest test rates per capita of any country (source: https://ourworldindata.org COVID statistics), and still have higher death rates than Japan and South Korea. Some people even resort to saying "Japan and South Korea went through SARS, so that's why they handled COVID-19 better," even though that doesn't really provide much of an explanation. Yet hardly anyone mentions the huge difference in obesity rates.I haven't seen or heard the psychopathic killer comments. I'm sorry if you have, because I don't believe that either.
Oh, I've gotten tons of those kinds of comments this year. Which is ironic, because I haven't even violated any of the COVID restrictions of my state the entire time (thankfully, it's now legal to go to restaurants and parks, and to socialize with up to 10 people, or I'd probably be dead by now). But I've been accused many times of being a heartless psychopath who profits off peoples' misery, just for pointing out that the lockdowns harm people too.
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I don't feel like I'm sacrificing because of obese people. I actually don't even understand how one would think that. I'm sacrificing for everyone, and especially for the elderly.
Obesity may lead to more severe outcomes, but it isn't causing this pandemic. This virus is wreaking havoc worldwide, even in countries with lower obesity rates.
I don't believe anyone said obesity (or any other preventable lifestyle choice) is causing the pandemic. However, these choices make the outcomes worse.
I feel there should have been more publicity on this angle.4 -
At first I was really against these, but then I read the article and I guess they are saying their mentalities are healthy because they are focused on how well their bodies can function and perform, not how they look. I am all for that, but I think if you focus on being the healthiest you are and love yourself you would lose weight to be the best you can be and healthiest you can be. Staying obese is harming yourself.
I am just glad they didn't outright say "I am perfectly healthy and don't want to lose any weight" like Tess Holiday does.1
This discussion has been closed.
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