Coronavirus prep
Replies
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janejellyroll wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »My large multinational corporation just said we are delaying our planned start of return to the office from 9/1 to no earlier than 10/1.
My large corporation told us not to expect anything earlier than January.
When I read things like this, I wonder how we can even think about sending 'our' children back to schools in good conscience. Am I the only one who feels that's incredibly hypocritical??
Yes. Pro athletes making millions get every possible safeguard, down to living in a Disney bubble, but school children, teachers, school staff, bus drivers, and all their families are just supposed to participate in a massive experiment while new cases and death rates are on the rise.
I saw a story today that in Arizona, foster children will have to attend school in person, even while their foster parents are allowed a choice of in-person, virtual, or hybrid for other children in the household (bio/adopted/legal guardianship). There currently are no exceptions, although they are apparently going to consider the possibility of allowing foster children with underlying conditions that put them at added risk of not attending in person. Excuse my language, but what the *baby sloth*?11 -
I’ve been on vacation for the past couple of weeks, but reading this just made me realize I have to decide and write our next installment of covid policy as the previous one is in effect until mid-August. Luckily it’s a small company and we’re able to move quickly, but I still wish I had a crystal ball that showed the future and if/when the second wave will hit our corner of the world. It’s a small company and I’m in no way a health&safety specialist, it just happens to fall within my overly wide job description. I still feel like I’m just making *kitten* up while trying to remain as clear and rational as possible while scrambling to keep everyone safe. Fun times making these kinds of decisions.
No need to re-invent the wheel if you can network with someone in an administrative position at a similar business and find out how they're handling it. Or consult your local health authority for basic recommendations.
I'm in a mid-size government office. We're taking our cues from the health unit, who is following the lead of the provincial health ministry.
Yeah, we of course follow cues from officials. The problem is, the official working-from-home recommendation is only effective until July 31 but the public consensus is that it’s a risk if everyone returns at the same time and offices are full. So, I have to come up with a way that is safe, responsible, customised to our specific needs, and treats everyone at our office equally. I should add people have always been allowed to work from home pretty freely, and before the pandemic we were steering towards stricter rules on office presence on certain days. Balancing that with the pandemic and switching directions at the right time will be difficult.
There are also questions about not just working-from-home but contact tracing, office space and things like keeping the coffee maker and bathrooms safe, company events, what to do if customers start to require on-site presence again and so on.
We are in IT so there’s no practical reason for customers to require all work is done on-site, but especially public offices often require it anyway and we have a lot of them as customers. They were forced to allow consultants to work from home as the government literally ordered all public offices to close and move to remote work, but it was still a huge hassle. With the official recommendations and rulings over, we have to see what our biggest customers do in terms of requiring on-site presence. If some/all do, it also brings questions like safe transportation for employees, multiplying exposure risks by visiting both customer and own office etc.1 -
rheddmobile wrote: »
The problem with allowing individual employees to decide whether their symptoms should “count” towards passing or failing the checklist is that a lot of supposedly asymptomatic transmission turns out, in retrospect, to be presymptomatic - “I just had a runny nose and thought it was my usual allergies but then I got a fever on the third day” - or what they call paucisymptomatic, which means there were symptoms but they never got serious enough for the individual to realize they were sick until afterwards, when they realize they “felt a little off for a couple of weeks.”autumnblade75 wrote: »autumnblade75 wrote: »I am not prepared, now, for the new work guidelines.
As of today, we are required to do a Prework Health Check. Well, I woke up with a headache, so the system told me to stay home and I can't come back until I'm cleared by my health care provider. So I called Teladoc. Who are not authorized (nobody is) to clear me for Covid. Over a headache. No fever, no cough, no nothing, but a headache.
Of course, calling the Teladoc managed to trigger an anxiety attack. So that was lovely.
I'm not sure how to resolve this.
I'm locked out of performing the next Prework Health Check until I contact a manager. I have no idea who is actually a manager, vs a supervisor, and I definitely don't have any contact information. I texted my supervisor, but like he already told me, all he got was the same flyer they handed me at the door.
I guess I just walk in with the Teladoc diagnosis of "headache" printed out as proof that I sought care, and hope for the best. Super system we got here, keeping everyone safe. I half hope they fire me. Maybe I should try harder.
This kind of system encourages people to lie. It's like at my husband's work. The first day they implemented screening like this, he was asked, "have you come in contact with a covid positive person?" He answered, "I don't know. I don't think so. How would I know that?" The employee screening him sent him home and told him he was supposed to say "no" definitively. Sent the next guy home because of his allergies. Asked if he had a cough. The guy said he just had the usual allergy cough he had every morning of his life. Nothing new or any other symptoms. He got sent home. Half the staff was sent home that first day. Managers had to call everybody back in and "coach" them how to respond to the screening questions. Everybody basically learned to lie after that. The coworker with the frequent migraines straight up lies to the screener's face multiple times per week. If this becomes a habit, actual sick people might start lying. Maybe they need more than just strict yes/no questions as your ticket into work.
Right now, I'm waiting out the clock. I have followed the next steps, as outlined by the app. My manager is now required to reset the app so I can pre-screen for work. I am allowed/required to do this "no later than one hour before scheduled start time" which is 2:40am today. The app is not yet reset, and I don't expect them to reset it. I have already started looking for a new job. This is a stupid game that brings me no joy, and I don't know why I'm playing it.
Not to mention people like my mom who will bust out with a rattling chest cough in the middle of December and claim it’s hay fever. Dude. There is nothing blooming now. That’s bronchitis! People are amazing in their ability to insist they couldn’t possibly be contagious, in the face of all evidence to the contrary. Like the person mentioned above who is still going to the gym with a positive test.
Well, I'm not trying to decide for myself whether a single symptom "counts" or not. I consulted the Teladoc. Do you trust the doctor to discount my single symptom?
My supervisor got back to me tonight. It's the third day. I missed his text, because I gave up and sent my resume in to the local temp agency and have already got a new job to start tomorrow. The client is requiring physical pre-work screening, actually sending people home if they report to work with a fever, requiring masks and distancing. At least, according to the recruiter. I'm looking forward to work for an employer who cares.10 -
autumnblade75 wrote: »rheddmobile wrote: »
The problem with allowing individual employees to decide whether their symptoms should “count” towards passing or failing the checklist is that a lot of supposedly asymptomatic transmission turns out, in retrospect, to be presymptomatic - “I just had a runny nose and thought it was my usual allergies but then I got a fever on the third day” - or what they call paucisymptomatic, which means there were symptoms but they never got serious enough for the individual to realize they were sick until afterwards, when they realize they “felt a little off for a couple of weeks.”autumnblade75 wrote: »autumnblade75 wrote: »I am not prepared, now, for the new work guidelines.
As of today, we are required to do a Prework Health Check. Well, I woke up with a headache, so the system told me to stay home and I can't come back until I'm cleared by my health care provider. So I called Teladoc. Who are not authorized (nobody is) to clear me for Covid. Over a headache. No fever, no cough, no nothing, but a headache.
Of course, calling the Teladoc managed to trigger an anxiety attack. So that was lovely.
I'm not sure how to resolve this.
I'm locked out of performing the next Prework Health Check until I contact a manager. I have no idea who is actually a manager, vs a supervisor, and I definitely don't have any contact information. I texted my supervisor, but like he already told me, all he got was the same flyer they handed me at the door.
I guess I just walk in with the Teladoc diagnosis of "headache" printed out as proof that I sought care, and hope for the best. Super system we got here, keeping everyone safe. I half hope they fire me. Maybe I should try harder.
This kind of system encourages people to lie. It's like at my husband's work. The first day they implemented screening like this, he was asked, "have you come in contact with a covid positive person?" He answered, "I don't know. I don't think so. How would I know that?" The employee screening him sent him home and told him he was supposed to say "no" definitively. Sent the next guy home because of his allergies. Asked if he had a cough. The guy said he just had the usual allergy cough he had every morning of his life. Nothing new or any other symptoms. He got sent home. Half the staff was sent home that first day. Managers had to call everybody back in and "coach" them how to respond to the screening questions. Everybody basically learned to lie after that. The coworker with the frequent migraines straight up lies to the screener's face multiple times per week. If this becomes a habit, actual sick people might start lying. Maybe they need more than just strict yes/no questions as your ticket into work.
Right now, I'm waiting out the clock. I have followed the next steps, as outlined by the app. My manager is now required to reset the app so I can pre-screen for work. I am allowed/required to do this "no later than one hour before scheduled start time" which is 2:40am today. The app is not yet reset, and I don't expect them to reset it. I have already started looking for a new job. This is a stupid game that brings me no joy, and I don't know why I'm playing it.
Not to mention people like my mom who will bust out with a rattling chest cough in the middle of December and claim it’s hay fever. Dude. There is nothing blooming now. That’s bronchitis! People are amazing in their ability to insist they couldn’t possibly be contagious, in the face of all evidence to the contrary. Like the person mentioned above who is still going to the gym with a positive test.
Well, I'm not trying to decide for myself whether a single symptom "counts" or not. I consulted the Teladoc. Do you trust the doctor to discount my single symptom?
My supervisor got back to me tonight. It's the third day. I missed his text, because I gave up and sent my resume in to the local temp agency and have already got a new job to start tomorrow. The client is requiring physical pre-work screening, actually sending people home if they report to work with a fever, requiring masks and distancing. At least, according to the recruiter. I'm looking forward to work for an employer who cares.
Glad I'm not looking for a job autumnblade. Best of luck to you with the new job if you get it. I sneeze a few times a day, blow my nose and cough or clear my throat all night and day and have had to deal with it for years. If someone can give advice on fixing it do tell me because it's horrible to live with and now with Covid I don't want people thinking I have it. I've seen many doctors and have no real answer on how to fix it. I'm over feeling like I'm choking on phlegm/post nasal drip.. no idea what to call it really. If I got Covid I'm not sure I'd do well.6 -
It wasn’t my intention to criticize you or say you personally have done anything wrong. The situation for businesses trying to keep employees from spreading is impossible. Just pointing out that letting the employee with the cough, the migraine, or the sniffles from allergies decide it’s okay and go in anyway isn’t a workable option either. The only workable option would be for businesses to have instant access to the kind of quick test they have now for strep, which takes 15 minutes and a small, portable setup. There is such a thing for covid already, but a) it’s not readily available and b) it seems to have a large number of false positives. So the setup would need to be, report symptoms, get quick tested, if quick test is positive get sent home with a regular test, get more accurate results in 24 hours.autumnblade75 wrote: »rheddmobile wrote: »
The problem with allowing individual employees to decide whether their symptoms should “count” towards passing or failing the checklist is that a lot of supposedly asymptomatic transmission turns out, in retrospect, to be presymptomatic - “I just had a runny nose and thought it was my usual allergies but then I got a fever on the third day” - or what they call paucisymptomatic, which means there were symptoms but they never got serious enough for the individual to realize they were sick until afterwards, when they realize they “felt a little off for a couple of weeks.”autumnblade75 wrote: »autumnblade75 wrote: »I am not prepared, now, for the new work guidelines.
As of today, we are required to do a Prework Health Check. Well, I woke up with a headache, so the system told me to stay home and I can't come back until I'm cleared by my health care provider. So I called Teladoc. Who are not authorized (nobody is) to clear me for Covid. Over a headache. No fever, no cough, no nothing, but a headache.
Of course, calling the Teladoc managed to trigger an anxiety attack. So that was lovely.
I'm not sure how to resolve this.
I'm locked out of performing the next Prework Health Check until I contact a manager. I have no idea who is actually a manager, vs a supervisor, and I definitely don't have any contact information. I texted my supervisor, but like he already told me, all he got was the same flyer they handed me at the door.
I guess I just walk in with the Teladoc diagnosis of "headache" printed out as proof that I sought care, and hope for the best. Super system we got here, keeping everyone safe. I half hope they fire me. Maybe I should try harder.
This kind of system encourages people to lie. It's like at my husband's work. The first day they implemented screening like this, he was asked, "have you come in contact with a covid positive person?" He answered, "I don't know. I don't think so. How would I know that?" The employee screening him sent him home and told him he was supposed to say "no" definitively. Sent the next guy home because of his allergies. Asked if he had a cough. The guy said he just had the usual allergy cough he had every morning of his life. Nothing new or any other symptoms. He got sent home. Half the staff was sent home that first day. Managers had to call everybody back in and "coach" them how to respond to the screening questions. Everybody basically learned to lie after that. The coworker with the frequent migraines straight up lies to the screener's face multiple times per week. If this becomes a habit, actual sick people might start lying. Maybe they need more than just strict yes/no questions as your ticket into work.
Right now, I'm waiting out the clock. I have followed the next steps, as outlined by the app. My manager is now required to reset the app so I can pre-screen for work. I am allowed/required to do this "no later than one hour before scheduled start time" which is 2:40am today. The app is not yet reset, and I don't expect them to reset it. I have already started looking for a new job. This is a stupid game that brings me no joy, and I don't know why I'm playing it.
Not to mention people like my mom who will bust out with a rattling chest cough in the middle of December and claim it’s hay fever. Dude. There is nothing blooming now. That’s bronchitis! People are amazing in their ability to insist they couldn’t possibly be contagious, in the face of all evidence to the contrary. Like the person mentioned above who is still going to the gym with a positive test.
Well, I'm not trying to decide for myself whether a single symptom "counts" or not. I consulted the Teladoc. Do you trust the doctor to discount my single symptom?
My supervisor got back to me tonight. It's the third day. I missed his text, because I gave up and sent my resume in to the local temp agency and have already got a new job to start tomorrow. The client is requiring physical pre-work screening, actually sending people home if they report to work with a fever, requiring masks and distancing. At least, according to the recruiter. I'm looking forward to work for an employer who cares.
But regular testing is running as long as 20 days to results in my location, which makes it essentially useless, so I don’t see that happening any time soon.
Anyway your job situation sucks and I hope the temp thing works out for you.
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cmriverside wrote: »The harsh reality is that those with the fewest resources to keep safe have the most pressure to get back to pre-covid practices.
Honestly this restriction has gone on long enough that this group is probably approaching critical mass right now.
Those of you in this thread who are the loudest proponents of social distancing and masks and quarantines...how would you feel about all this were you not privileged? It's easy for those with stay-home capability to pontificate from their keyboards but the reality is that tens of millions of people are living basically hand-to-mouth even in the best of economic times.
Unless you know a way to fabricate money out of thin air, I think allowing everyone to make their own choice is going to be the only way forward. Yes, people are going to die. More people won't. The choice should not be up to rich people living in comfortable isolation with plenty of money.
I've often wondered as I'm reading this thread how those who are isolated are doing. I see so many people saying we need to keep parents/grandparents safe and essentially totally isolated to keep them from getting Covid. In no way do I think we should deliberately spread it to those who are most vulnerable, but is it worth grandpa getting a longer life if that life is spent in isolation and him being unhappy due to not being able to spend time, hug or even see his family? There needs to be balance for all...I'm not sure what the answer is but the mental health effects on our most vulnerable are not being taken into consideration it seems like.
Plus e-learning just won't work for so many kids - whether it's because they do not have the resources at home to be able to utilize it, don't have the necessary supervision/involved parents to be successful or a multitude of other factors - we aren't doing most kids any favors by keeping them at home.
Very well said. This thing is dragging on so long, we really have to review our thinking now.
I can only speak for myself, not the words of all grandparents: I would rather live isolated than die from hugging my relatives. I'm not, unfortunately, one of the priviledged, so I can't speak for them either, my words only: I would rather be poor, only have two chairs, no tv, no couch, no curtains, not own my own home, and continue to live in a noisy apartment with rude neighbors, unable to get fresh fruit, ( I could fo on and on ) rather than die by the Covid19 disease. Please stop the 'old people should just get on with dying 'cause their life quality ain't really worth much' talk. It won't help many of us just back down and wimp away towards death, rather it seems to instill more grit. How can you say such things? Everyone's life is worth living for them, even if you can't see it.
As far as the kids getting back to school? I doubt it is so important as all that. So what if every student is set back one year? That is worst case scenario. Most people spend more than necessary, most could tighten up their budgets and one parent stay home to home school or be on hand to monitor the on-line classes. Why wouldn't they want to do that? It would give stronger bonds between parents and children. There is still much hope for vaccines. Its not going too be like this forever.
I wish that most everyone were not so quickly running out to meet death.
I feel the same way, just wasn't brave enough to voice it.
Thank YOU for speaking out though. 
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rheddmobile wrote: »
It wasn’t my intention to criticize you or say you personally have done anything wrong. The situation for businesses trying to keep employees from spreading is impossible. Just pointing out that letting the employee with the cough, the migraine, or the sniffles from allergies decide it’s okay and go in anyway isn’t a workable option either. The only workable option would be for businesses to have instant access to the kind of quick test they have now for strep, which takes 15 minutes and a small, portable setup. There is such a thing for covid already, but a) it’s not readily available and b) it seems to have a large number of false positives. So the setup would need to be, report symptoms, get quick tested, if quick test is positive get sent home with a regular test, get more accurate results in 24 hours.autumnblade75 wrote: »rheddmobile wrote: »
The problem with allowing individual employees to decide whether their symptoms should “count” towards passing or failing the checklist is that a lot of supposedly asymptomatic transmission turns out, in retrospect, to be presymptomatic - “I just had a runny nose and thought it was my usual allergies but then I got a fever on the third day” - or what they call paucisymptomatic, which means there were symptoms but they never got serious enough for the individual to realize they were sick until afterwards, when they realize they “felt a little off for a couple of weeks.”autumnblade75 wrote: »autumnblade75 wrote: »I am not prepared, now, for the new work guidelines.
As of today, we are required to do a Prework Health Check. Well, I woke up with a headache, so the system told me to stay home and I can't come back until I'm cleared by my health care provider. So I called Teladoc. Who are not authorized (nobody is) to clear me for Covid. Over a headache. No fever, no cough, no nothing, but a headache.
Of course, calling the Teladoc managed to trigger an anxiety attack. So that was lovely.
I'm not sure how to resolve this.
I'm locked out of performing the next Prework Health Check until I contact a manager. I have no idea who is actually a manager, vs a supervisor, and I definitely don't have any contact information. I texted my supervisor, but like he already told me, all he got was the same flyer they handed me at the door.
I guess I just walk in with the Teladoc diagnosis of "headache" printed out as proof that I sought care, and hope for the best. Super system we got here, keeping everyone safe. I half hope they fire me. Maybe I should try harder.
This kind of system encourages people to lie. It's like at my husband's work. The first day they implemented screening like this, he was asked, "have you come in contact with a covid positive person?" He answered, "I don't know. I don't think so. How would I know that?" The employee screening him sent him home and told him he was supposed to say "no" definitively. Sent the next guy home because of his allergies. Asked if he had a cough. The guy said he just had the usual allergy cough he had every morning of his life. Nothing new or any other symptoms. He got sent home. Half the staff was sent home that first day. Managers had to call everybody back in and "coach" them how to respond to the screening questions. Everybody basically learned to lie after that. The coworker with the frequent migraines straight up lies to the screener's face multiple times per week. If this becomes a habit, actual sick people might start lying. Maybe they need more than just strict yes/no questions as your ticket into work.
Right now, I'm waiting out the clock. I have followed the next steps, as outlined by the app. My manager is now required to reset the app so I can pre-screen for work. I am allowed/required to do this "no later than one hour before scheduled start time" which is 2:40am today. The app is not yet reset, and I don't expect them to reset it. I have already started looking for a new job. This is a stupid game that brings me no joy, and I don't know why I'm playing it.
Not to mention people like my mom who will bust out with a rattling chest cough in the middle of December and claim it’s hay fever. Dude. There is nothing blooming now. That’s bronchitis! People are amazing in their ability to insist they couldn’t possibly be contagious, in the face of all evidence to the contrary. Like the person mentioned above who is still going to the gym with a positive test.
Well, I'm not trying to decide for myself whether a single symptom "counts" or not. I consulted the Teladoc. Do you trust the doctor to discount my single symptom?
My supervisor got back to me tonight. It's the third day. I missed his text, because I gave up and sent my resume in to the local temp agency and have already got a new job to start tomorrow. The client is requiring physical pre-work screening, actually sending people home if they report to work with a fever, requiring masks and distancing. At least, according to the recruiter. I'm looking forward to work for an employer who cares.
But regular testing is running as long as 20 days to results in my location, which makes it essentially useless, so I don’t see that happening any time soon.
Anyway your job situation sucks and I hope the temp thing works out for you.
I agree completely that we SHOULD be pre-screening. But that means there should also be a clear policy that is communicated to employees regarding how they go about returning to work. Ignoring an employee's request for information regarding the Return To Work Policy for 3 days just isn't cool.5 -
So, two developments on the local front. First, Shelby county’s positivity rate yesterday was 53% - more than half of all tests positive. It was also the lowest number of tests daily since I think March, because labs aren’t getting supplies to finish processing tests anymore, so they are only testing the most in need.
The other thing that happened was a woman came to our door begging. She claimed to be out of work due to Covid. She has lost her insurance and needs a biopsy but they won’t schedule it without payment in advance. It may have been a total scam, I don’t know, but I never saw such a thing as a door to door beggar before, and I’ve lived here 25 years. She seemed like a perfectly well dressed middle class white lady. (Notable because this is a majority black neighborhood.) Not wearing a mask, incidentally.
I do know that at least one of the local clinics for people without insurance is not taking patients at all right now, and as someone who is self employed without insurance it can be almost impossible to get a doctor here, even if you have the ability to pay.5 -
lynn_glenmont wrote: »I was heartened when I ran to the store this a.m., needing a few things we're out of. A sign on their door read something to the affect that if you're not wearing a mask, you cannot enter the store. THAT made me happy. But then I go in and there are still 5 out of maybe 25 people NOT wearing a mask. WTH? Back up your signage and make them go home to get their mask or have disposables on hand to offer them! Otherwise, you lose all sense of credibility.
And why bother posting a sign at all??
My sister and I went to a book store yesterday that posted a sign on their door, 'Please wear a mask covering nose and mouth at all times'. My sister had a mask and we'd just entered but she forgot to pull it up. The worker came right over and politely asked her to cover her nose; my sister apologized and the lady was very polite.
What a difference in how store policies are being handled.
I don't know where you are located, but given that in the U.S. retail employees that have tried to enforce masking policies have been screamed at by in-your-face spittle-spewing maskless individuals, physically assaulted, and even shot and killed, I don't think it's fair to ask people who are already at greater-than-average exposure from their jobs -- probably for lower-than-average wages -- to take on the added risk of masking enforcement.
I don't know what the right answer is to enforcing masking requirements, but it doesn't seem fair to ask the retail workers to take on that burden.
While I agree with you, simply putting up a sign isn't going to change a thing. You either enforce it or take it down because otherwise, more and more people are not going to listen to anyone's rules. Well, except the ones who care anyways. There has got to be a way to stand behind a store's policies.
I'm in Vermont and I know people can take a very defensive stance to being told what to do if they don't want to do it(much like a toddler). It's happening most everywhere. I don't blame retailers who are in a very vulnerable position to not engage in a possible volatile situation. But any time you make a rule and not enforce it, you lose all credibility.
Places like McDonalds, etc., who are claiming you have to wear a mask....how do they deal with an irate customer?2 -
cmriverside wrote: »The harsh reality is that those with the fewest resources to keep safe have the most pressure to get back to pre-covid practices.
Honestly this restriction has gone on long enough that this group is probably approaching critical mass right now.
Those of you in this thread who are the loudest proponents of social distancing and masks and quarantines...how would you feel about all this were you not privileged? It's easy for those with stay-home capability to pontificate from their keyboards but the reality is that tens of millions of people are living basically hand-to-mouth even in the best of economic times.
Unless you know a way to fabricate money out of thin air, I think allowing everyone to make their own choice is going to be the only way forward. Yes, people are going to die. More people won't. The choice should not be up to rich people living in comfortable isolation with plenty of money.
I've often wondered as I'm reading this thread how those who are isolated are doing. I see so many people saying we need to keep parents/grandparents safe and essentially totally isolated to keep them from getting Covid. In no way do I think we should deliberately spread it to those who are most vulnerable, but is it worth grandpa getting a longer life if that life is spent in isolation and him being unhappy due to not being able to spend time, hug or even see his family? There needs to be balance for all...I'm not sure what the answer is but the mental health effects on our most vulnerable are not being taken into consideration it seems like.
Plus e-learning just won't work for so many kids - whether it's because they do not have the resources at home to be able to utilize it, don't have the necessary supervision/involved parents to be successful or a multitude of other factors - we aren't doing most kids any favors by keeping them at home.
Very well said. This thing is dragging on so long, we really have to review our thinking now.
I can only speak for myself, not the words of all grandparents: I would rather live isolated than die from hugging my relatives. I'm not, unfortunately, one of the priviledged, so I can't speak for them either, my words only: I would rather be poor, only have two chairs, no tv, no couch, no curtains, not own my own home, and continue to live in a noisy apartment with rude neighbors, unable to get fresh fruit, ( I could fo on and on ) rather than die by the Covid19 disease. Please stop the 'old people should just get on with dying 'cause their life quality ain't really worth much' talk. It won't help many of us just back down and wimp away towards death, rather it seems to instill more grit. How can you say such things? Everyone's life is worth living for them, even if you can't see it.
As far as the kids getting back to school? I doubt it is so important as all that. So what if every student is set back one year? That is worst case scenario. Most people spend more than necessary, most could tighten up their budgets and one parent stay home to home school or be on hand to monitor the on-line classes. Why wouldn't they want to do that? It would give stronger bonds between parents and children. There is still much hope for vaccines. Its not going too be like this forever.
I wish that most everyone were not so quickly running out to meet death.
I did not read Kushiel's post (the quote in Tony's post which you quoted) to mean that she felt the elderly and vulnerable should 'get on with dying'. I think the point is that in isolating everyone through social distancing, we may be worrying about everyone's physical health without taking into account their mental health. I don't believe anyone in this thread is dismissing anyone else's life as not worth much. My mother is older, and falls into several vulnerable categories. While she is being careful, she also believes that when it's her time to die she will die regardless of where she is or what she is doing. I have a similar philosophy (she did raise me, after all) - it's one of the reasons I can go skydiving and am willing to cycle on a busy road. My mother would rather not be isolated from her loved ones even though she understands the risks. Luckily I live 500 miles away from her, so if she does get COVID it won't be because I gave it to her (and that is totally selfish, but I'm over here just being honest). I love her dearly.
I have a teenage son who was absolutely crushed when they made the determination locally that school would be fully online in the fall. I understand and am okay with the decision, and so is he. However I worry quite a bit about his psychological health due to a lack of socializing, and one of the things we're going to need to do for him is make sure he does get some social interaction. I'm not sure what that looks like yet (maybe small study groups?), but to kushiel1's point - some people take the stress of social isolation much harder than others. A somewhat old article that talks about this: https://health.usnews.com/conditions/articles/social-distancing-and-suicide-risk
Edited because love and live are not the same.
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So some schools here in Indiana started back in person this week... and there is already a case of a student being positive. Parents sent the child to school even though they were waiting on the test to come back. Positive results then came in. So now a bunch of students, teachers, admin, and who know who else have been exposed. Yay for sending kids back when numbers are on the increase. That was REAL smart /s. We already know parents will do stuff like give kids tylanol to mask a fever without a pandemic. Do we really think that is going to change? Do we really want to risk trusting that other people will "do the right thing" when our lives are in danger? Selfish. That is what it is.12
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lynn_glenmont wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »My large multinational corporation just said we are delaying our planned start of return to the office from 9/1 to no earlier than 10/1.
My large corporation told us not to expect anything earlier than January.
When I read things like this, I wonder how we can even think about sending 'our' children back to schools in good conscience. Am I the only one who feels that's incredibly hypocritical??
Yes. Pro athletes making millions get every possible safeguard, down to living in a Disney bubble, but school children, teachers, school staff, bus drivers, and all their families are just supposed to participate in a massive experiment while new cases and death rates are on the rise.
I saw a story today that in Arizona, foster children will have to attend school in person, even while their foster parents are allowed a choice of in-person, virtual, or hybrid for other children in the household (bio/adopted/legal guardianship). There currently are no exceptions, although they are apparently going to consider the possibility of allowing foster children with underlying conditions that put them at added risk of not attending in person. Excuse my language, but what the *baby sloth*?
The only possible benevolent spin I can put on this is that they're worried that foster children who are being abused won't have a way to alert any adults or possibly get help if they're not physically going to school. I HOPE at least there were good intentions behind this plan - trying to give the benefit of the doubt here.6 -
As a former daycare worker, this is absolutely the case (and we had one parent who would raise a stink every time she had to come pick up her son due to illness... would medicate him, take him to the doctor, then BRING HIM BACK!! with a doctor’s note declaring no fever... and the owner/director LET HER!) And it’s amazing how many children would start fevers after lunch, you know, around the 6 hr time mark... hated that job, I think mostly due to poor leadership.So some schools here in Indiana started back in person this week... and there is already a case of a student being positive. Parents sent the child to school even though they were waiting on the test to come back. Positive results then came in. So now a bunch of students, teachers, admin, and who know who else have been exposed. Yay for sending kids back when numbers are on the increase. That was REAL smart /s. We already know parents will do stuff like give kids tylanol to mask a fever without a pandemic. Do we really think that is going to change? Do we really want to risk trusting that other people will "do the right thing" when our lives are in danger? Selfish. That is what it is.
Now, as a mom, I am hyper paranoid about illness, probably to a fault, but I didn’t want to potentially pass along any crud if there was a hint of a chance (we homeschool so we are fortunate to be able to do that). Makes me so made when parents send their obviously sick children to group things. There are a couple families at church known for it (diagnosed strep, the flu, not just symptoms).
7 -
janejellyroll wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »My large multinational corporation just said we are delaying our planned start of return to the office from 9/1 to no earlier than 10/1.
My large corporation told us not to expect anything earlier than January.
When I read things like this, I wonder how we can even think about sending 'our' children back to schools in good conscience. Am I the only one who feels that's incredibly hypocritical??
Yes. Pro athletes making millions get every possible safeguard, down to living in a Disney bubble, but school children, teachers, school staff, bus drivers, and all their families are just supposed to participate in a massive experiment while new cases and death rates are on the rise.
I saw a story today that in Arizona, foster children will have to attend school in person, even while their foster parents are allowed a choice of in-person, virtual, or hybrid for other children in the household (bio/adopted/legal guardianship). There currently are no exceptions, although they are apparently going to consider the possibility of allowing foster children with underlying conditions that put them at added risk of not attending in person. Excuse my language, but what the *baby sloth*?
The only possible benevolent spin I can put on this is that they're worried that foster children who are being abused won't have a way to alert any adults or possibly get help if they're not physically going to school. I HOPE at least there were good intentions behind this plan - trying to give the benefit of the doubt here.
Here elementary and middle schools opened for the last two weeks in May precisely because otherwise children in bad situation wouldn’t have been met by outside adults at school in 6 months. It was about all kids and not just foster kids though, and teachers around the country reported that the families they were most concerned about kept their children home those 2 weeks.
Still, it breaks my heart that the amount of notifications/reports to child protective services dropped like a ball mid-March when schools and daycare centers closed. I don’t believe in the needs stopping for a hot second, it was just that nobody found out and made reports. Here teachers and daycare workers have a legal obligation to notify child protection if they suspect anything.5 -
janejellyroll wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »My large multinational corporation just said we are delaying our planned start of return to the office from 9/1 to no earlier than 10/1.
My large corporation told us not to expect anything earlier than January.
When I read things like this, I wonder how we can even think about sending 'our' children back to schools in good conscience. Am I the only one who feels that's incredibly hypocritical??
Yes. Pro athletes making millions get every possible safeguard, down to living in a Disney bubble, but school children, teachers, school staff, bus drivers, and all their families are just supposed to participate in a massive experiment while new cases and death rates are on the rise.
I saw a story today that in Arizona, foster children will have to attend school in person, even while their foster parents are allowed a choice of in-person, virtual, or hybrid for other children in the household (bio/adopted/legal guardianship). There currently are no exceptions, although they are apparently going to consider the possibility of allowing foster children with underlying conditions that put them at added risk of not attending in person. Excuse my language, but what the *baby sloth*?
The only possible benevolent spin I can put on this is that they're worried that foster children who are being abused won't have a way to alert any adults or possibly get help if they're not physically going to school. I HOPE at least there were good intentions behind this plan - trying to give the benefit of the doubt here.
Here elementary and middle schools opened for the last two weeks in May precisely because otherwise children in bad situation wouldn’t have been met by outside adults at school in 6 months. It was about all kids and not just foster kids though, and teachers around the country reported that the families they were most concerned about kept their children home those 2 weeks.
Still, it breaks my heart that the amount of notifications/reports to child protective services dropped like a ball mid-March when schools and daycare centers closed. I don’t believe in the needs stopping for a hot second, it was just that nobody found out and made reports. Here teachers and daycare workers have a legal obligation to notify child protection if they suspect anything.
I really feel for the kids who aren't safe at home, they're in a terrible situation right now (I mean I feel for them all the time, but it seems even worse now with current circumstances).2 -
I was heartened when I ran to the store this a.m., needing a few things we're out of. A sign on their door read something to the affect that if you're not wearing a mask, you cannot enter the store. THAT made me happy. But then I go in and there are still 5 out of maybe 25 people NOT wearing a mask. WTH? Back up your signage and make them go home to get their mask or have disposables on hand to offer them! Otherwise, you lose all sense of credibility. And why bother posting a sign at all??
My sister and I went to a book store yesterday that posted a sign on their door, 'Please wear a mask covering nose and mouth at all times'. My sister had a mask and we'd just entered but she forgot to pull it up. The worker came right over and politely asked her to cover her nose; my sister apologized and the lady was very polite.
What a difference in how store policies are being handled.
Others have mentioned the shooting/stabbing (which happened around here).
I suspect that in addition to differences in store policy or employee assertiveness, there may be differences in the nature of the average shopper in particular kinds of stores, that comes into play. Obviously, any kind of person may go anywhere, but there's a reason bars frequently have bouncers, and bookstores rarely do.
Grocery stores get everyone in them, though different chains may appeal to different sub-markets. Bookstores, though there's variation of course, may on average have a narrower range of probable habitues.
What differences?? If it's the policy, just enforce it. I know I CANNOT go inside anywhere without one, so I keep one in my pocket. On approaching the door, out comes my mask, and then i can enter. No fuss, no argument.
Not everyone is Ok to do what they are asked as you are and I am the same. I'd do it no problem. How can every place there enforce this? I'm not from USA and don't have what is happening there Covid wise as much but is there even enough guards they can hire to do this? How do you think this can be done?
I'm not from the USA either, but here they already hire guards at every supermarket, bank, post office, government agency, shopping mall, etc. It just needs one of those guards at or near the door to be on policy enforcement rather than crime watch. It has simply become part of their job. But I don't see anyone aggressively approaching the door with any intention of defying the guard. Its usually a polite conversation, gentle reminder if necessary, then please proceed.
Some locations are doing temperature checks as well, and a family of four were recently asked to remain on the outside pending a recheck because the mother and youngest son had temperatures above the allowed limit. I don't know what happened 10 minutes later when it was taken again. But it wasn't a fight, just a pleasant conversation.3 -
I was heartened when I ran to the store this a.m., needing a few things we're out of. A sign on their door read something to the affect that if you're not wearing a mask, you cannot enter the store. THAT made me happy. But then I go in and there are still 5 out of maybe 25 people NOT wearing a mask. WTH? Back up your signage and make them go home to get their mask or have disposables on hand to offer them! Otherwise, you lose all sense of credibility. And why bother posting a sign at all??
My sister and I went to a book store yesterday that posted a sign on their door, 'Please wear a mask covering nose and mouth at all times'. My sister had a mask and we'd just entered but she forgot to pull it up. The worker came right over and politely asked her to cover her nose; my sister apologized and the lady was very polite.
What a difference in how store policies are being handled.
Others have mentioned the shooting/stabbing (which happened around here).
I suspect that in addition to differences in store policy or employee assertiveness, there may be differences in the nature of the average shopper in particular kinds of stores, that comes into play. Obviously, any kind of person may go anywhere, but there's a reason bars frequently have bouncers, and bookstores rarely do.
Grocery stores get everyone in them, though different chains may appeal to different sub-markets. Bookstores, though there's variation of course, may on average have a narrower range of probable habitues.
What differences?? If it's the policy, just enforce it. I know I CANNOT go inside anywhere without one, so I keep one in my pocket. On approaching the door, out comes my mask, and then i can enter. No fuss, no argument.
Not everyone is Ok to do what they are asked as you are and I am the same. I'd do it no problem. How can every place there enforce this? I'm not from USA and don't have what is happening there Covid wise as much but is there even enough guards they can hire to do this? How do you think this can be done?
I'm not from the USA either, but here they already hire guards at every supermarket, bank, post office, government agency, shopping mall, etc. It just needs one of those guards at or near the door to be on policy enforcement rather than crime watch. It has simply become part of their job. But I don't see anyone aggressively approaching the door with any intention of defying the guard. Its usually a polite conversation, gentle reminder if necessary, then please proceed.
Some locations are doing temperature checks as well, and a family of four were recently asked to remain on the outside pending a recheck because the mother and youngest son had temperatures above the allowed limit. I don't know what happened 10 minutes later when it was taken again. But it wasn't a fight, just a pleasant conversation.
But lots of smaller retailers don't have guards and even with larger stores the on-site security is more focused on loss prevention than enforcing regulations.2 -
Just because social media is still filled with Covidiot conspiracy theorists claiming that Fauci, Gates and "the fake liberal media" are conspiring to withhold the "cure", here's more information.
The Henry Ford study was found to be seriously flawed because they removed anyone with any history of heart disease that had Covid-19 from the study (taking Hydroxychloroquine). Does anyone with common sense see how this might skew the direction of the results? Take those with heart disease out of those taking Hydroxychloroquine, but keep them in the results of the greater number of fatalities NOT taking it. Science tends to get in the way of conspiracy theories every time.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/07/21/fact-check-hydroxychloroquine-hasnt-helped-covid-19-studies-show/5407547002/5 -
lynn_glenmont wrote: »I was heartened when I ran to the store this a.m., needing a few things we're out of. A sign on their door read something to the affect that if you're not wearing a mask, you cannot enter the store. THAT made me happy. But then I go in and there are still 5 out of maybe 25 people NOT wearing a mask. WTH? Back up your signage and make them go home to get their mask or have disposables on hand to offer them! Otherwise, you lose all sense of credibility. And why bother posting a sign at all??
My sister and I went to a book store yesterday that posted a sign on their door, 'Please wear a mask covering nose and mouth at all times'. My sister had a mask and we'd just entered but she forgot to pull it up. The worker came right over and politely asked her to cover her nose; my sister apologized and the lady was very polite.
What a difference in how store policies are being handled.
I don't know where you are located, but given that in the U.S. retail employees that have tried to enforce masking policies have been screamed at by in-your-face spittle-spewing maskless individuals, physically assaulted, and even shot and killed, I don't think it's fair to ask people who are already at greater-than-average exposure from their jobs -- probably for lower-than-average wages -- to take on the added risk of masking enforcement.
I don't know what the right answer is to enforcing masking requirements, but it doesn't seem fair to ask the retail workers to take on that burden.
While I agree with you, simply putting up a sign isn't going to change a thing. You either enforce it or take it down because otherwise, more and more people are not going to listen to anyone's rules. Well, except the ones who care anyways. There has got to be a way to stand behind a store's policies.
I'm in Vermont and I know people can take a very defensive stance to being told what to do if they don't want to do it(much like a toddler). It's happening most everywhere. I don't blame retailers who are in a very vulnerable position to not engage in a possible volatile situation. But any time you make a rule and not enforce it, you lose all credibility.
Places like McDonalds, etc., who are claiming you have to wear a mask....how do they deal with an irate customer?
Mask signage is more legally driven than it is health related. The last I knew in the USA McDonald's was Drive Thur only but that may vary from region to region. Only staff who are willing to be harmed or killed demand mask usage by customers in the USA. Weddings, reunions, social events like clubs and churches seem to be real COVID-19 spread factors locally. Well per the news protesters that are for and against many issues tend to be spreaders as well.2 -
Unfortunately will happen:
13 -
Theoldguy1 wrote: »Unfortunately will happen:
Interesting scenario!!1 -
I live in AZ now, but I'm a huge (and hopeless) Bengals fan. NFL fans are hoping the season gets played and if you pay any attention to the draft, Joe Burrow is now a Bengal, so fans are even more excited about Cincinnati.
I personally don't see an NFL season happening, as much as I'd like it to. They, like MLB and the NBA, are allowing players to "opt out" of the season. Here's the thing with football players. Be definition, O-linemen are obese. They have to be to be 300 plus pounds. It's part of the job.
I'd be curious how other football fans feel. Though I'd love to see my team play this year, I have no desire for anyone to die for my entertainment.7 -
MikePfirrman wrote: »I live in AZ now, but I'm a huge (and hopeless) Bengals fan. NFL fans are hoping the season gets played and if you pay any attention to the draft, Joe Burrow is now a Bengal, so fans are even more excited about Cincinnati.
I personally don't see an NFL season happening, as much as I'd like it to. They, like MLB and the NBA, are allowing players to "opt out" of the season. Here's the thing with football players. Be definition, O-linemen are obese. They have to be to be 300 plus pounds. It's part of the job.
I'd be curious how other football fans feel. Though I'd love to see my team play this year, I have no desire for anyone to die for my entertainment.
Every professional league and university athletic program is desperate for their seasons to start. Even if they can't host fans, they need the TV revenue. They are trying to preserve their profitability and their jobs, regardless of the risk to players and staff.
So, far, the NBA and NHL have been successful in restarting their seasons ONLY because they are keeping players and staff in a quarantined "bubble" in host/hub cities. No travel, no going home, no outside food, no families, no women.
MLB opted for allowing teams to play in their home ballparks, travel to other team's ballparks, stay at their own homes in their home cities. And now you see the Miami Marlins have a huge outbreak with at least 17 players testing positive. That was in the first week of play. This will happen to other baseball teams, and I will be very surprised if the MLB season plays through to its conclusion.
The NFL will be in the same boat, since they are also allowing teams to play in their home facilities. They may have a slight advantage over MLB, with travel only once a week and far fewer games.
I'm a sports fan, but I just don't see how any of this is going to work right now. As with many industries, shutting down is going to cost people their jobs, but at least they'll have their lives.5 -
There’s a lot of things that don’t make sense right now. Professional sports and resuming school are going to be interesting. Early days for both. It will be interesting to see what transpires in the next few weeks. Like my father used to say, “can’t never tried”. Who will pay the price? A news blurb just came across saying 99% of US deaths could have been prevented if it would have been handled correctly from the beginning.5
-
SuzySunshine99 wrote: »MikePfirrman wrote: »I live in AZ now, but I'm a huge (and hopeless) Bengals fan. NFL fans are hoping the season gets played and if you pay any attention to the draft, Joe Burrow is now a Bengal, so fans are even more excited about Cincinnati.
I personally don't see an NFL season happening, as much as I'd like it to. They, like MLB and the NBA, are allowing players to "opt out" of the season. Here's the thing with football players. Be definition, O-linemen are obese. They have to be to be 300 plus pounds. It's part of the job.
I'd be curious how other football fans feel. Though I'd love to see my team play this year, I have no desire for anyone to die for my entertainment.
Every professional league and university athletic program is desperate for their seasons to start. Even if they can't host fans, they need the TV revenue. They are trying to preserve their profitability and their jobs, regardless of the risk to players and staff.
So, far, the NBA and NHL have been successful in restarting their seasons ONLY because they are keeping players and staff in a quarantined "bubble" in host/hub cities. No travel, no going home, no outside food, no families, no women.
MLB opted for allowing teams to play in their home ballparks, travel to other team's ballparks, stay at their own homes in their home cities. And now you see the Miami Marlins have a huge outbreak with at least 17 players testing positive. That was in the first week of play. This will happen to other baseball teams, and I will be very surprised if the MLB season plays through to its conclusion.
The NFL will be in the same boat, since they are also allowing teams to play in their home facilities. They may have a slight advantage over MLB, with travel only once a week and far fewer games.
I'm a sports fan, but I just don't see how any of this is going to work right now. As with many industries, shutting down is going to cost people their jobs, but at least they'll have their lives.
They found out that several Marlins attended a party and caught it. Then, in order to hide it, they just showed up and infected their teammates. I see issues like this will be common, especially with young male athletes that are accustomed to doing what they want to without repercussions. I think the NBA was smart in essentially not trusting their players to social distance on their own merit.10 -
SuzySunshine99 wrote: »MikePfirrman wrote: »I live in AZ now, but I'm a huge (and hopeless) Bengals fan. NFL fans are hoping the season gets played and if you pay any attention to the draft, Joe Burrow is now a Bengal, so fans are even more excited about Cincinnati.
I personally don't see an NFL season happening, as much as I'd like it to. They, like MLB and the NBA, are allowing players to "opt out" of the season. Here's the thing with football players. Be definition, O-linemen are obese. They have to be to be 300 plus pounds. It's part of the job.
I'd be curious how other football fans feel. Though I'd love to see my team play this year, I have no desire for anyone to die for my entertainment.
Every professional league and university athletic program is desperate for their seasons to start. Even if they can't host fans, they need the TV revenue. They are trying to preserve their profitability and their jobs, regardless of the risk to players and staff.
So, far, the NBA and NHL have been successful in restarting their seasons ONLY because they are keeping players and staff in a quarantined "bubble" in host/hub cities. No travel, no going home, no outside food, no families, no women.
MLB opted for allowing teams to play in their home ballparks, travel to other team's ballparks, stay at their own homes in their home cities. And now you see the Miami Marlins have a huge outbreak with at least 17 players testing positive. That was in the first week of play. This will happen to other baseball teams, and I will be very surprised if the MLB season plays through to its conclusion.
The NFL will be in the same boat, since they are also allowing teams to play in their home facilities. They may have a slight advantage over MLB, with travel only once a week and far fewer games.
I'm a sports fan, but I just don't see how any of this is going to work right now. As with many industries, shutting down is going to cost people their jobs, but at least they'll have their lives.
As an NHL fan, I give them a slight edge in making it work as not only are they in a bubble but the two bubbles are in Canada.
But as much as I will enjoy watching as many of any of these games as they can put out, I'm concerned by the sheer volume of testing supplies they are using for something that is just entertainment. Here in the US where there are still people waiting 7+ days for test results, it just doesn't seem responsible.
The Cardinals just announced two players have tested positive, so here we go again. The worst case scenario for MLB is they don't even manage to play the season and several players or staff members see their careers ruined or even lose their lives. Not that completing the season would be worth it either, but you know what I mean.
I keep waiting to hear the NFL cancel the season. Between the example baseball is setting, the fact you mentioned that there are obese football players, and the NFLs crappy history of taking care of their players long term, it just seems like a tragedy waiting to happen.9 -
News just broke, MLB might shut it down by next week, citing that their own players can't abide by the rules in order to stay safe.
https://www.nbcsports.com/bayarea/giants/mlb-rumors-commissioner-rob-manfred-warns-mlbpa-potential-shutdown7 -
My employer with several sites across the U.S. (and other countries) announced a new policy today, effective immediately. The policy is that anyone who travels for personal reasons to a "red zone" state* is not allowed to come to the facility for 14 days after returning, and that it will be unpaid. There isn't anything clear about those of us who are able to work from home if we can work and get paid without having to come into the facility. It does state that if we live in a "red zone" state, then our home is not included in the policy (we can come to work anyway).
*Red zone state in the policy is defined as a state with a 7 day positive test rate of 10% or greater, which will be updated weekly.
More recently, testing has become scarce again in some places and that means the positive test rate increases (only people who are really sick are getting tested).
I'm thinking this policy may make some managers re-consider letting those of us who can WFH do so.9 -
MikePfirrman wrote: »News just broke, MLB might shut it down by next week, citing that their own players can't abide by the rules in order to stay safe.
https://www.nbcsports.com/bayarea/giants/mlb-rumors-commissioner-rob-manfred-warns-mlbpa-potential-shutdown
I'm not even going to read that because duh.. sorry but I have a thing about men that play with balls for a living as being able to do the right thing at any time. I don't mind what anyone thinks about it. I don't trust them to do the right things. Not sure why but I'm honest.. they'd be out partying or whatever cause they are gods right? Our "god" here had a statue made of him. Now he is protesting a aged care home is in his street and will be dangerous for his kids. It's not in his street and it's just 2 more beds being added. Poor darling.5 -
T1DCarnivoreRunner wrote: »My employer with several sites across the U.S. (and other countries) announced a new policy today, effective immediately. The policy is that anyone who travels for personal reasons to a "red zone" state* is not allowed to come to the facility for 14 days after returning, and that it will be unpaid. There isn't anything clear about those of us who are able to work from home if we can work and get paid without having to come into the facility. It does state that if we live in a "red zone" state, then our home is not included in the policy (we can come to work anyway).
*Red zone state in the policy is defined as a state with a 7 day positive test rate of 10% or greater, which will be updated weekly.
More recently, testing has become scarce again in some places and that means the positive test rate increases (only people who are really sick are getting tested).
I'm thinking this policy may make some managers re-consider letting those of us who can WFH do so.
Interesting but how does the company tell if someone has been to a 'red" state?2
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