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  • AnnPT77AnnPT77 Member, Premium Posts: 16,509 Member Member, Premium Posts: 16,509 Member
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »
    AnnPT77 wrote: »
    FWIW, since we're talking about outdoor mask mandates, East Lansing (where the bar superspreader event happenend that I've posted about) has an outdoor mask mandate in the downtown area. Michigan State University, which is directly across a main business street, also mandates masks outdoors

    https://www.wilx.com/2020/08/07/masks-are-required-within-east-lansing-dda-boundaries/
    https://www.lansingstatejournal.com/story/news/2020/06/26/michigan-state-university-msu-students-faculty-staff-coronavirus-covid-wear-masks-campus/3264015001/

    I'm not sure exactly how to interpret the MSU one, based on that article, so may need to research further. You may be thinking of an urban campus, which is fair for the main campus. At the margins, there are natural areas (think mature mixed forest with mostly dirt paths here and there). To the South, there are good-sized farms - horses, cattle, pigs, crops, even turf grass - for the biggies, each with its separate farm. All of that is technically "campus".

    The farms are just North of me, maybe half a mile. I could bike or walk there (usually go in the opposite direction, but if I headed North, I'd rarely encounter another person on foot/bike). The local bike club does time trials that start on public roads (with a wide bike lane) in the farm part of campus, usually one night a week. The regional bike/walk trail system has legs through campus, both natural and urban parts. It will be interesting to see how this works out in practice.
    AnnPT77 wrote: »
    I don't know whether anyone is interested, but here's a pretty detailed analysis of a "superspreader event", specifically the contagion spike that happened here when the bars opened, and lots of unmasked young people descended on a popular college-town bar. (Same basic event I've previously linked news about, but this is a pretty thorough post-analysis that goes beyond anything previous.)

    https://eastlansinginfo.news/new-data-show-how-the-harpers-superspreader-event-played-out/

    I think there are some elements that could be of interest beyond locally, as there's an analysis of the demographics of the spread from primaries to secondaries, the geographic reach, a look at symptoms/results, etc. Overall, it's a graphic example of how a gathering can cause a big impact, when people act carelessly or recklessly.

    I read the article about MSU requiring masks "on campus". We also live in a college town (state university about 20k students 5k JC and 2k private school). All of the schools have gone to some sort of hybrid in-person/remote learning but judging from the Wal-Mart today there will be fair number of students in our community.

    All the schools have similar rules as MSU regarding masks "on campus". What we were discussing was what happens at the Greek houses student apartments etc. that aren't on university property? Does East Lansing address this with no mask fines, etc? We're thinking about an hour after the first party starts (if not sooner) masks are forgotten.

    With apologies, all I really know at this point is what's in the article linked. From that, it sounds like enforcement isn't going to be iron-fisted, but who knows.

    At MSU, none of the Greek houses are on campus, usually wouldn't be under same rules as the physical campus. Their U-imposed rules are more - using the term kind of loosely - contract-based. They need to follow certain rules to remain affiliated with the U. Most of the houses (maybe all) are in East Lansing jurisdiction, though I think not mostly in the downtown district where the "outdoor masks" mandate applies. They spread into residential neighborhoods. Normally, in a day-to-day sense, they're subject to East Lansing policing (if noise complaints, other bad behavior, etc.).

    For those not local, I'll point out that MSU is a place with its own separate police department, full law officers equivalent to city police departments. (It's as big as some small cities, main campus not including farms/natural areas is contiguous area something like 1.5-2 miles broad, over 40K students (usually around half living on campus), probably something around 10K+ non-student employees, roughly. (I used to know this stuff before I retired, I didn't recheck the numbers for currency, but should be in the ballpark still.))
    edited August 9
  • lemurcat2lemurcat2 Member Posts: 5,672 Member Member Posts: 5,672 Member
    lemurcat2 wrote: »
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »
    AnnPT77 wrote: »
    FWIW, since we're talking about outdoor mask mandates, East Lansing (where the bar superspreader event happenend that I've posted about) has an outdoor mask mandate in the downtown area. Michigan State University, which is directly across a main business street, also mandates masks outdoors

    https://www.wilx.com/2020/08/07/masks-are-required-within-east-lansing-dda-boundaries/
    https://www.lansingstatejournal.com/story/news/2020/06/26/michigan-state-university-msu-students-faculty-staff-coronavirus-covid-wear-masks-campus/3264015001/

    I'm not sure exactly how to interpret the MSU one, based on that article, so may need to research further. You may be thinking of an urban campus, which is fair for the main campus. At the margins, there are natural areas (think mature mixed forest with mostly dirt paths here and there). To the South, there are good-sized farms - horses, cattle, pigs, crops, even turf grass - for the biggies, each with its separate farm. All of that is technically "campus".

    The farms are just North of me, maybe half a mile. I could bike or walk there (usually go in the opposite direction, but if I headed North, I'd rarely encounter another person on foot/bike). The local bike club does time trials that start on public roads (with a wide bike lane) in the farm part of campus, usually one night a week. The regional bike/walk trail system has legs through campus, both natural and urban parts. It will be interesting to see how this works out in practice.
    AnnPT77 wrote: »
    I don't know whether anyone is interested, but here's a pretty detailed analysis of a "superspreader event", specifically the contagion spike that happened here when the bars opened, and lots of unmasked young people descended on a popular college-town bar. (Same basic event I've previously linked news about, but this is a pretty thorough post-analysis that goes beyond anything previous.)

    https://eastlansinginfo.news/new-data-show-how-the-harpers-superspreader-event-played-out/

    I think there are some elements that could be of interest beyond locally, as there's an analysis of the demographics of the spread from primaries to secondaries, the geographic reach, a look at symptoms/results, etc. Overall, it's a graphic example of how a gathering can cause a big impact, when people act carelessly or recklessly.

    I read the article about MSU requiring masks "on campus". We also live in a college town (state university about 20k students 5k JC and 2k private school). All of the schools have gone to some sort of hybrid in-person/remote learning but judging from the Wal-Mart today there will be fair number of students in our community.

    All the schools have similar rules as MSU regarding masks "on campus". What we were discussing was what happens at the Greek houses student apartments etc. that aren't on university property? Does East Lansing address this with no mask fines, etc? We're thinking about an hour after the first party starts (if not sooner) masks are forgotten.

    Speaking of colleges, U of I (also doing combo remote and on campus) is trying to rely a lot on rapid testing (2x/week) and contract tracing with an app, from what I've read. I'm interested to see how that goes.
    My mom just started working at the hospital in Moscow, ID (was a volunteer preCOVID) and she was hired to be the one to call people about their COVID test results. She said U of I is planning on testing something like 1300 students per day?? But they might have changed that from their original plans a couple weeks ago due to logistics.

    I meant U of Illinois, but that's interesting. (My mom went to WSU, so went to Moscow from time to time.) U of IL has been very involved in developing rapid tests, so they are hoping to be able to make it work. I hope they manage.
  • kimny72kimny72 Member Posts: 15,454 Member Member Posts: 15,454 Member
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »
    hipari wrote: »
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »
    hipari wrote: »
    baconslave wrote: »
    hipari wrote: »
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »
    TonyB0588 wrote: »
    hipari wrote: »
    TonyB0588 wrote: »

    Which practices? The ones that many parents taught their children while growing up? Wash your hands before eating. Cover your nose when you sneeze. Wash your hands after using the toilet. Cover your mouth when you cough. Wash your hands after touching money. Don't lie in bed with clothes you wore outdoors. By the way, did I mention wash your hands?

    Why are normal civilized people no longer doing these things??

    After returning to the office for 4 days this week, I’m pretty confident half my coworkers have spent their summer doing drugs or something else to wipe off all brain cells that carry learned human decency and guidelines. It has consistently always been the rule, first as general human decency and then as official HR policy, that you wash your hands with water and soap when you come in to any space from outdoors. We have hand sanitizer bottles all around the office, but at this point everyone should know water and soap are better and hand sanitizer should be used as complementary add-in or when proper hand-washing isn’t available. Some of the discussions I’ve had this week include:

    ”Please wash your hands first, you just came in from outside”
    ”But I only touched a few doorknobs”
    ”Still.” (Me in my head: yeah, you went outside, probably touched your face while smoking, and then used the doors and elevators in this 11-floor office building that has quite a lot of people)

    ”Please wash your hands with water and soap”
    ”But I’m using hand sanitizer”
    ”That’s great as an addition, but doesn’t replace soap”
    ”Huh, since when?”
    ”It never has...”

    After referencing these discussions the CEO gave me permission to start giving personal office bans at my discretion for those who can’t or won’t follow the hygiene rules. At this point being allowed to leave home and come to work at the office is a privilege and those who don’t follow the rules to make it safe for others won’t be allowed to use it. If people want to ignore hygiene and safety rules, they can do it in the privacy of their own home where they won’t risk their colleagues. They just have to deal with focusing on work with their kids jumping around etc., but life is full of choices and everyone is welcome to continue working from home if hand-washing at the office is too much trouble.

    Wow!! I wouldn't want to be the one sending workers back home, but I guess you need to take action if people are so dumb.

    In our workplace there are handwashing signs everywhere, and extra taps and sinks have been installed. It is also mentioned at every huddle or staff meeting. It just simply is the new normal.

    Masks, distancing, and temperature checks are also part of the daily routine. Everything is being done to protect everyone else and keep the workplace safe.

    IMO, to be honest, if grown *kitten* adults need to be told to wash their hands the train has already left the station and no amount of HR signs and announcements will do any good.

    Yep. The thing that bothers me most about those discussions is that the reaction isn’t ”oh crap I spaced out, will wash immediately” but instead some sort of complaining about not wanting to do it for reason X.

    The rules are in place for a reason, and as head of HR I will be enforcing them. It’s not fair to let the few idiots run wild at the office and risk those who want to come in, focus on their work without at-home distractions, and follow the rules to keep themselves and everyone around the as safe as possible. The office is not a playground for misbehaving children, it’s a workplace where people should be able to be safe and focus on their work like adults.

    From HR viewpoint, people get used to signs so fast they are only useful for a day or two, after that they’re really just virtue signaling that we care and have plans in place, and they show the right message for the few guests that do come in. I’m hoping I don’t have to start actually banning people, hopefully having 1-on-1 discussions about rules being enforced and bans being issued for further non-compliance is enough of a threat.

    (Yeah, I probably shouldn’t call my colleagues idiots or misbehaving children, but I’m human and they’re risking my health too.)
    Goodness, I don’t envy you having to enforce those rules, but good on you for trying.

    As I’ve mentioned before, I have been aware of other people’s germ-spreading behaviors for a while now, due to periodically being on immune-suppressing medication. It’s not a surprise to me that most adults don’t wash their hands, won’t cover their mouths during a cough or sneeze, and are downright hostile if someone suggests that they should avoid others while symptomatic. I work from home and don’t go out much, and caught four separate colds last winter due to others. I can probably pinpoint the exact person who gave me each illness, since they typically came on two to four days after being near the child with fever and a cough lying down on a restaurant booth during an adult drinking party because “I couldn’t leave him with a sitter when he’s sick,” or the lady with a rattling chest cough not covering her mouth and bumping me from behind in line at the grocery. Or the young fireman staring vacantly into space coughing constantly not covering his mouth in the packet pickup tent at a race. In each case I removed myself from the vicinity as soon as I could and it wasn’t good enough. I don’t have servants, it’s not possible for me to avoid all other people, so when a substantial number of them are determined to spread illness, I get sick.

    If this epidemic has any silver lining, I hope it is that it becomes much less socially acceptable to kill other people with your germs. Because doing this kills people, and not just when covid is around. Fragile elderly and immune compromised people exist at all times, and your fever and lingering cough may be someone else’s death sentence.

    One of my kids was sick recently and a doctor had to get involved. We had a conversation and I told her, that even though I am a very conscientious person, I really used to feel that getting sick was inevitable with my little germ-nuggets. And that I didn't think twice on going around when I had sick kids at home. Complete thoughtlessness! :rage: But COVID has brought home that though I'm not currently sick, I could be a carrier and spread it to others outside the family. So I will definitely be more careful in the future when illness is in my family to not be a jerkface carelessly spreading it everywhere.

    One of my friends has a prematurely born daughter with lugn issues so regular flus were extremely dangerous to her as a baby. They couldn’t take her anywhere with public transportation because of the infection risk and every invitation to their home included a ”stay the *kitten* away if you have any symptoms whatsoever” reminder. I admit that pre-covid I thought smaller symptoms like a runny nose or a little cough weren’t a reason to stay home and isolate if I felt otherwise fine and was able to go on about my regular day, and things like her case were the exception. In the future I will definitely stay home with smaller symptoms, and I hope this pandemic permanently changes the current (pre-covid) culture where showing up was more important than knowing when to not show up.

    Now that many workplaces have tried working from home and seen it can be done, I hope in the future ”I feel like I might be getting sick” is a good enough reason to stay home and work from there without employers questioning it. Unrelated, I also hope handshaking will become a thing of the past.

    Saw something recently in the Wall Street Journal that WFH isn't as good as advertised.

    Also, i disagree and hope handshakes, fists bumps etc come back when this is behind us. People are social animals and an appropriate touch is part of that socialization.

    This is the article discussing the perhaps WFH isn't as good on a long term basis. Fine for when people are sick IMO.

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/companies-start-to-think-remote-work-isnt-so-great-after-all-11595603397

    It's popping up behind a paywall now but I was able to read it a few days ago.

    Headline:
    Companies Start to Think Remote Work Isn’t So Great After All
    Projects take longer. Collaboration is harder. And training new workers is a struggle. ‘This is not going to be sustainable.’

    Re: training new workers. We had 4 new employees start during lockdown, and 4 started less than a month before lockdown started. All 4 who started during lockdown and completely from home said it was surprisingly easy and they felt actually more connected to their coworkers since Teams communication and video meetings require people to be more intentional and present than at the office where you can more easily ignore your surroundings. Apparently it’s also helpful to NOT meet everyone on your first day, because you can actually get to know colleagues one by one, and even in large meetings everyone automatically has their name displayed so there’s no awkwardness about being expected to remember the names of all 30 people you were introduced to on your first day.

    2 of the workers who started just before lockdown are entry level. They struggled more because they need more hands-on guidance and training about the actual work than more experienced professionals, and they’re also less confident to speak up and ask in Teams if they’re struggling or need more advice.

    Interesting. Where I work (multi-billion $, multi-national corporation) standard practice is people have the camera off/piece of Post-It Note over the camera so all that is seen in a Teams meeting is the material being presented and pictures of the participants from our corporate directory or blank space. A person in a Teams meeting could be doing Lord knows what and nobody on the meeting would know. Meeting "live" in a conference room it's pretty easy to see who is really engaged IMO.

    We're required to be on video for our Teams meetings, unless there's some kind of extenuating circumstance. We're usually in small groups though, 6 or 8 people. I find I'm more involved because everyone can see everyone in one glance, rather than having to look around the room and around other people
  • MikePfirrmanMikePfirrman Member Posts: 1,872 Member Member Posts: 1,872 Member
    @lynn_glenmont -- you may be right. I think, though, it was just fantastic timing and lucky for Fox to sell when they did. Cheesecake Factory will likely table the new expansions until this is settled. I looked up the final figure, it was like $380M, still pretty OK for a local guy out of Tucson. His corporation is now in Scottsdale, but he does a lot of the new concepts here in Tucson first still and many of the originals started here. I think he's taking the windfall and starting more concepts in AZ that won't be Cheesecake Factory owned. His restaurants, despite Covid, have been doing pretty well. Almost all have very large, beautiful patios. We won't eat inside, but will go out once or twice a week and dine outside.

    Cafe Rio - Yum! Went there 10 years ago when we went to Utah for a two week vacation (the original spots were out of St George). I made a copycat recipe a few weeks ago at home. They are amazing. They started out with only a few stores in St George, expanded to St Lake City and then went national from there. The weeks we spent near there visiting the national parks, I think we ate there three or four times! So much better than Chipotle.
    edited August 9
  • mockchocmockchoc Member Posts: 6,409 Member Member Posts: 6,409 Member
    Diatonic12 wrote: »
    Cafe Rio and St. George. Ayup. Sooo good. St. George has really grown.

    Last night, I drove by our local yocal restaurants. They were cram jammed with pesky tourists from all over the U.S. Some of these buildings have been around since the 1800's and they're rickety boxes of wood. Now if you only knew that during the midnight hours that mice are running around the countertops and all over the tables you wouldn't be so gung-ho to go in there but wild horses won't keep the tourists away.

    I wish they'd all go home but they won't. They're all blowing through here on their way to the big moto rally and they'll be baaaaack. They always come back and this time they'll be bringing 'Rona with them. Gives me a really big pinch. Sure does.

    Can't help it. This is still my favorite meme.


    c3sliby2tnpl.png

    Sorry you have to deal with lots of tourist. We do too although now our boarder is closed to the states with the most cases it feels safer for now. Zero new cases here again today.
  • T1DCarnivoreRunnerT1DCarnivoreRunner Member Posts: 10,912 Member Member Posts: 10,912 Member
    lemurcat2 wrote: »
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »
    hipari wrote: »
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »
    hipari wrote: »
    baconslave wrote: »
    hipari wrote: »
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »
    TonyB0588 wrote: »
    hipari wrote: »
    TonyB0588 wrote: »

    Which practices? The ones that many parents taught their children while growing up? Wash your hands before eating. Cover your nose when you sneeze. Wash your hands after using the toilet. Cover your mouth when you cough. Wash your hands after touching money. Don't lie in bed with clothes you wore outdoors. By the way, did I mention wash your hands?

    Why are normal civilized people no longer doing these things??

    After returning to the office for 4 days this week, I’m pretty confident half my coworkers have spent their summer doing drugs or something else to wipe off all brain cells that carry learned human decency and guidelines. It has consistently always been the rule, first as general human decency and then as official HR policy, that you wash your hands with water and soap when you come in to any space from outdoors. We have hand sanitizer bottles all around the office, but at this point everyone should know water and soap are better and hand sanitizer should be used as complementary add-in or when proper hand-washing isn’t available. Some of the discussions I’ve had this week include:

    ”Please wash your hands first, you just came in from outside”
    ”But I only touched a few doorknobs”
    ”Still.” (Me in my head: yeah, you went outside, probably touched your face while smoking, and then used the doors and elevators in this 11-floor office building that has quite a lot of people)

    ”Please wash your hands with water and soap”
    ”But I’m using hand sanitizer”
    ”That’s great as an addition, but doesn’t replace soap”
    ”Huh, since when?”
    ”It never has...”

    After referencing these discussions the CEO gave me permission to start giving personal office bans at my discretion for those who can’t or won’t follow the hygiene rules. At this point being allowed to leave home and come to work at the office is a privilege and those who don’t follow the rules to make it safe for others won’t be allowed to use it. If people want to ignore hygiene and safety rules, they can do it in the privacy of their own home where they won’t risk their colleagues. They just have to deal with focusing on work with their kids jumping around etc., but life is full of choices and everyone is welcome to continue working from home if hand-washing at the office is too much trouble.

    Wow!! I wouldn't want to be the one sending workers back home, but I guess you need to take action if people are so dumb.

    In our workplace there are handwashing signs everywhere, and extra taps and sinks have been installed. It is also mentioned at every huddle or staff meeting. It just simply is the new normal.

    Masks, distancing, and temperature checks are also part of the daily routine. Everything is being done to protect everyone else and keep the workplace safe.

    IMO, to be honest, if grown *kitten* adults need to be told to wash their hands the train has already left the station and no amount of HR signs and announcements will do any good.

    Yep. The thing that bothers me most about those discussions is that the reaction isn’t ”oh crap I spaced out, will wash immediately” but instead some sort of complaining about not wanting to do it for reason X.

    The rules are in place for a reason, and as head of HR I will be enforcing them. It’s not fair to let the few idiots run wild at the office and risk those who want to come in, focus on their work without at-home distractions, and follow the rules to keep themselves and everyone around the as safe as possible. The office is not a playground for misbehaving children, it’s a workplace where people should be able to be safe and focus on their work like adults.

    From HR viewpoint, people get used to signs so fast they are only useful for a day or two, after that they’re really just virtue signaling that we care and have plans in place, and they show the right message for the few guests that do come in. I’m hoping I don’t have to start actually banning people, hopefully having 1-on-1 discussions about rules being enforced and bans being issued for further non-compliance is enough of a threat.

    (Yeah, I probably shouldn’t call my colleagues idiots or misbehaving children, but I’m human and they’re risking my health too.)
    Goodness, I don’t envy you having to enforce those rules, but good on you for trying.

    As I’ve mentioned before, I have been aware of other people’s germ-spreading behaviors for a while now, due to periodically being on immune-suppressing medication. It’s not a surprise to me that most adults don’t wash their hands, won’t cover their mouths during a cough or sneeze, and are downright hostile if someone suggests that they should avoid others while symptomatic. I work from home and don’t go out much, and caught four separate colds last winter due to others. I can probably pinpoint the exact person who gave me each illness, since they typically came on two to four days after being near the child with fever and a cough lying down on a restaurant booth during an adult drinking party because “I couldn’t leave him with a sitter when he’s sick,” or the lady with a rattling chest cough not covering her mouth and bumping me from behind in line at the grocery. Or the young fireman staring vacantly into space coughing constantly not covering his mouth in the packet pickup tent at a race. In each case I removed myself from the vicinity as soon as I could and it wasn’t good enough. I don’t have servants, it’s not possible for me to avoid all other people, so when a substantial number of them are determined to spread illness, I get sick.

    If this epidemic has any silver lining, I hope it is that it becomes much less socially acceptable to kill other people with your germs. Because doing this kills people, and not just when covid is around. Fragile elderly and immune compromised people exist at all times, and your fever and lingering cough may be someone else’s death sentence.

    One of my kids was sick recently and a doctor had to get involved. We had a conversation and I told her, that even though I am a very conscientious person, I really used to feel that getting sick was inevitable with my little germ-nuggets. And that I didn't think twice on going around when I had sick kids at home. Complete thoughtlessness! :rage: But COVID has brought home that though I'm not currently sick, I could be a carrier and spread it to others outside the family. So I will definitely be more careful in the future when illness is in my family to not be a jerkface carelessly spreading it everywhere.

    One of my friends has a prematurely born daughter with lugn issues so regular flus were extremely dangerous to her as a baby. They couldn’t take her anywhere with public transportation because of the infection risk and every invitation to their home included a ”stay the *kitten* away if you have any symptoms whatsoever” reminder. I admit that pre-covid I thought smaller symptoms like a runny nose or a little cough weren’t a reason to stay home and isolate if I felt otherwise fine and was able to go on about my regular day, and things like her case were the exception. In the future I will definitely stay home with smaller symptoms, and I hope this pandemic permanently changes the current (pre-covid) culture where showing up was more important than knowing when to not show up.

    Now that many workplaces have tried working from home and seen it can be done, I hope in the future ”I feel like I might be getting sick” is a good enough reason to stay home and work from there without employers questioning it. Unrelated, I also hope handshaking will become a thing of the past.

    Saw something recently in the Wall Street Journal that WFH isn't as good as advertised.

    Also, i disagree and hope handshakes, fists bumps etc come back when this is behind us. People are social animals and an appropriate touch is part of that socialization.

    This is the article discussing the perhaps WFH isn't as good on a long term basis. Fine for when people are sick IMO.

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/companies-start-to-think-remote-work-isnt-so-great-after-all-11595603397

    It's popping up behind a paywall now but I was able to read it a few days ago.

    Headline:
    Companies Start to Think Remote Work Isn’t So Great After All
    Projects take longer. Collaboration is harder. And training new workers is a struggle. ‘This is not going to be sustainable.’

    Re: training new workers. We had 4 new employees start during lockdown, and 4 started less than a month before lockdown started. All 4 who started during lockdown and completely from home said it was surprisingly easy and they felt actually more connected to their coworkers since Teams communication and video meetings require people to be more intentional and present than at the office where you can more easily ignore your surroundings. Apparently it’s also helpful to NOT meet everyone on your first day, because you can actually get to know colleagues one by one, and even in large meetings everyone automatically has their name displayed so there’s no awkwardness about being expected to remember the names of all 30 people you were introduced to on your first day.

    2 of the workers who started just before lockdown are entry level. They struggled more because they need more hands-on guidance and training about the actual work than more experienced professionals, and they’re also less confident to speak up and ask in Teams if they’re struggling or need more advice.

    Interesting. Where I work (multi-billion $, multi-national corporation) standard practice is people have the camera off/piece of Post-It Note over the camera so all that is seen in a Teams meeting is the material being presented and pictures of the participants from our corporate directory or blank space. A person in a Teams meeting could be doing Lord knows what and nobody on the meeting would know. Meeting "live" in a conference room it's pretty easy to see who is really engaged IMO.

    We do Zoom meetings, but everyone is visible. It would be considered weird/not acceptable to cover the camera. We don't do lots of meetings in general, however, and lots of team stuff is handled by phone (and pretty easy to tell who is participating, as everyone is supposed to be contributing to the discussion).

    We also have a new lawyer who started just before the stay at home order, who had been a judicial clerk before. It's been pretty impossible to give him the kind of feedback/training he would have received in person in the office.

    Nobody uses video on our Skype meetings. In fact, when at the office, my computer is on the docking station and closed. I couldn't display video in that position anyway.
  • Theoldguy1Theoldguy1 Member Posts: 1,235 Member Member Posts: 1,235 Member
    lemurcat2 wrote: »
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »
    hipari wrote: »
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »
    hipari wrote: »
    baconslave wrote: »
    hipari wrote: »
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »
    TonyB0588 wrote: »
    hipari wrote: »
    TonyB0588 wrote: »

    Which practices? The ones that many parents taught their children while growing up? Wash your hands before eating. Cover your nose when you sneeze. Wash your hands after using the toilet. Cover your mouth when you cough. Wash your hands after touching money. Don't lie in bed with clothes you wore outdoors. By the way, did I mention wash your hands?

    Why are normal civilized people no longer doing these things??

    After returning to the office for 4 days this week, I’m pretty confident half my coworkers have spent their summer doing drugs or something else to wipe off all brain cells that carry learned human decency and guidelines. It has consistently always been the rule, first as general human decency and then as official HR policy, that you wash your hands with water and soap when you come in to any space from outdoors. We have hand sanitizer bottles all around the office, but at this point everyone should know water and soap are better and hand sanitizer should be used as complementary add-in or when proper hand-washing isn’t available. Some of the discussions I’ve had this week include:

    ”Please wash your hands first, you just came in from outside”
    ”But I only touched a few doorknobs”
    ”Still.” (Me in my head: yeah, you went outside, probably touched your face while smoking, and then used the doors and elevators in this 11-floor office building that has quite a lot of people)

    ”Please wash your hands with water and soap”
    ”But I’m using hand sanitizer”
    ”That’s great as an addition, but doesn’t replace soap”
    ”Huh, since when?”
    ”It never has...”

    After referencing these discussions the CEO gave me permission to start giving personal office bans at my discretion for those who can’t or won’t follow the hygiene rules. At this point being allowed to leave home and come to work at the office is a privilege and those who don’t follow the rules to make it safe for others won’t be allowed to use it. If people want to ignore hygiene and safety rules, they can do it in the privacy of their own home where they won’t risk their colleagues. They just have to deal with focusing on work with their kids jumping around etc., but life is full of choices and everyone is welcome to continue working from home if hand-washing at the office is too much trouble.

    Wow!! I wouldn't want to be the one sending workers back home, but I guess you need to take action if people are so dumb.

    In our workplace there are handwashing signs everywhere, and extra taps and sinks have been installed. It is also mentioned at every huddle or staff meeting. It just simply is the new normal.

    Masks, distancing, and temperature checks are also part of the daily routine. Everything is being done to protect everyone else and keep the workplace safe.

    IMO, to be honest, if grown *kitten* adults need to be told to wash their hands the train has already left the station and no amount of HR signs and announcements will do any good.

    Yep. The thing that bothers me most about those discussions is that the reaction isn’t ”oh crap I spaced out, will wash immediately” but instead some sort of complaining about not wanting to do it for reason X.

    The rules are in place for a reason, and as head of HR I will be enforcing them. It’s not fair to let the few idiots run wild at the office and risk those who want to come in, focus on their work without at-home distractions, and follow the rules to keep themselves and everyone around the as safe as possible. The office is not a playground for misbehaving children, it’s a workplace where people should be able to be safe and focus on their work like adults.

    From HR viewpoint, people get used to signs so fast they are only useful for a day or two, after that they’re really just virtue signaling that we care and have plans in place, and they show the right message for the few guests that do come in. I’m hoping I don’t have to start actually banning people, hopefully having 1-on-1 discussions about rules being enforced and bans being issued for further non-compliance is enough of a threat.

    (Yeah, I probably shouldn’t call my colleagues idiots or misbehaving children, but I’m human and they’re risking my health too.)
    Goodness, I don’t envy you having to enforce those rules, but good on you for trying.

    As I’ve mentioned before, I have been aware of other people’s germ-spreading behaviors for a while now, due to periodically being on immune-suppressing medication. It’s not a surprise to me that most adults don’t wash their hands, won’t cover their mouths during a cough or sneeze, and are downright hostile if someone suggests that they should avoid others while symptomatic. I work from home and don’t go out much, and caught four separate colds last winter due to others. I can probably pinpoint the exact person who gave me each illness, since they typically came on two to four days after being near the child with fever and a cough lying down on a restaurant booth during an adult drinking party because “I couldn’t leave him with a sitter when he’s sick,” or the lady with a rattling chest cough not covering her mouth and bumping me from behind in line at the grocery. Or the young fireman staring vacantly into space coughing constantly not covering his mouth in the packet pickup tent at a race. In each case I removed myself from the vicinity as soon as I could and it wasn’t good enough. I don’t have servants, it’s not possible for me to avoid all other people, so when a substantial number of them are determined to spread illness, I get sick.

    If this epidemic has any silver lining, I hope it is that it becomes much less socially acceptable to kill other people with your germs. Because doing this kills people, and not just when covid is around. Fragile elderly and immune compromised people exist at all times, and your fever and lingering cough may be someone else’s death sentence.

    One of my kids was sick recently and a doctor had to get involved. We had a conversation and I told her, that even though I am a very conscientious person, I really used to feel that getting sick was inevitable with my little germ-nuggets. And that I didn't think twice on going around when I had sick kids at home. Complete thoughtlessness! :rage: But COVID has brought home that though I'm not currently sick, I could be a carrier and spread it to others outside the family. So I will definitely be more careful in the future when illness is in my family to not be a jerkface carelessly spreading it everywhere.

    One of my friends has a prematurely born daughter with lugn issues so regular flus were extremely dangerous to her as a baby. They couldn’t take her anywhere with public transportation because of the infection risk and every invitation to their home included a ”stay the *kitten* away if you have any symptoms whatsoever” reminder. I admit that pre-covid I thought smaller symptoms like a runny nose or a little cough weren’t a reason to stay home and isolate if I felt otherwise fine and was able to go on about my regular day, and things like her case were the exception. In the future I will definitely stay home with smaller symptoms, and I hope this pandemic permanently changes the current (pre-covid) culture where showing up was more important than knowing when to not show up.

    Now that many workplaces have tried working from home and seen it can be done, I hope in the future ”I feel like I might be getting sick” is a good enough reason to stay home and work from there without employers questioning it. Unrelated, I also hope handshaking will become a thing of the past.

    Saw something recently in the Wall Street Journal that WFH isn't as good as advertised.

    Also, i disagree and hope handshakes, fists bumps etc come back when this is behind us. People are social animals and an appropriate touch is part of that socialization.

    This is the article discussing the perhaps WFH isn't as good on a long term basis. Fine for when people are sick IMO.

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/companies-start-to-think-remote-work-isnt-so-great-after-all-11595603397

    It's popping up behind a paywall now but I was able to read it a few days ago.

    Headline:
    Companies Start to Think Remote Work Isn’t So Great After All
    Projects take longer. Collaboration is harder. And training new workers is a struggle. ‘This is not going to be sustainable.’

    Re: training new workers. We had 4 new employees start during lockdown, and 4 started less than a month before lockdown started. All 4 who started during lockdown and completely from home said it was surprisingly easy and they felt actually more connected to their coworkers since Teams communication and video meetings require people to be more intentional and present than at the office where you can more easily ignore your surroundings. Apparently it’s also helpful to NOT meet everyone on your first day, because you can actually get to know colleagues one by one, and even in large meetings everyone automatically has their name displayed so there’s no awkwardness about being expected to remember the names of all 30 people you were introduced to on your first day.

    2 of the workers who started just before lockdown are entry level. They struggled more because they need more hands-on guidance and training about the actual work than more experienced professionals, and they’re also less confident to speak up and ask in Teams if they’re struggling or need more advice.

    Interesting. Where I work (multi-billion $, multi-national corporation) standard practice is people have the camera off/piece of Post-It Note over the camera so all that is seen in a Teams meeting is the material being presented and pictures of the participants from our corporate directory or blank space. A person in a Teams meeting could be doing Lord knows what and nobody on the meeting would know. Meeting "live" in a conference room it's pretty easy to see who is really engaged IMO.

    We do Zoom meetings, but everyone is visible. It would be considered weird/not acceptable to cover the camera. We don't do lots of meetings in general, however, and lots of team stuff is handled by phone (and pretty easy to tell who is participating, as everyone is supposed to be contributing to the discussion).

    We also have a new lawyer who started just before the stay at home order, who had been a judicial clerk before. It's been pretty impossible to give him the kind of feedback/training he would have received in person in the office.

    I work in finance at a manufacturing company. The vast majority of Microsoft Teams meetings I'm in involve finance, engineering manufacturing and purchasing professionals. The meetings virtually always have a presentation to keep the meeting focused as well as present information for discussion/decision making. With the presentation showing the squares for each participants picture is at most an inch square. Really too small to be of any value.

    IMO, remote training can work well for some clerical/support jobs but for professional/technical jobs where there are many factors going into a decision that don't fit neatly into a flowchart, the ability to turn around and have a discussion with a coworker, that is overheard by another coworker who joins in the discussion is critical. That was the point brought out in the WSJ article I linked.

    Now if someone needs to WFH during an illness do so.

    edited August 10
  • janejellyrolljanejellyroll Member Posts: 23,846 Member Member Posts: 23,846 Member
    lemurcat2 wrote: »
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »
    hipari wrote: »
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »
    hipari wrote: »
    baconslave wrote: »
    hipari wrote: »
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »
    TonyB0588 wrote: »
    hipari wrote: »
    TonyB0588 wrote: »

    Which practices? The ones that many parents taught their children while growing up? Wash your hands before eating. Cover your nose when you sneeze. Wash your hands after using the toilet. Cover your mouth when you cough. Wash your hands after touching money. Don't lie in bed with clothes you wore outdoors. By the way, did I mention wash your hands?

    Why are normal civilized people no longer doing these things??

    After returning to the office for 4 days this week, I’m pretty confident half my coworkers have spent their summer doing drugs or something else to wipe off all brain cells that carry learned human decency and guidelines. It has consistently always been the rule, first as general human decency and then as official HR policy, that you wash your hands with water and soap when you come in to any space from outdoors. We have hand sanitizer bottles all around the office, but at this point everyone should know water and soap are better and hand sanitizer should be used as complementary add-in or when proper hand-washing isn’t available. Some of the discussions I’ve had this week include:

    ”Please wash your hands first, you just came in from outside”
    ”But I only touched a few doorknobs”
    ”Still.” (Me in my head: yeah, you went outside, probably touched your face while smoking, and then used the doors and elevators in this 11-floor office building that has quite a lot of people)

    ”Please wash your hands with water and soap”
    ”But I’m using hand sanitizer”
    ”That’s great as an addition, but doesn’t replace soap”
    ”Huh, since when?”
    ”It never has...”

    After referencing these discussions the CEO gave me permission to start giving personal office bans at my discretion for those who can’t or won’t follow the hygiene rules. At this point being allowed to leave home and come to work at the office is a privilege and those who don’t follow the rules to make it safe for others won’t be allowed to use it. If people want to ignore hygiene and safety rules, they can do it in the privacy of their own home where they won’t risk their colleagues. They just have to deal with focusing on work with their kids jumping around etc., but life is full of choices and everyone is welcome to continue working from home if hand-washing at the office is too much trouble.

    Wow!! I wouldn't want to be the one sending workers back home, but I guess you need to take action if people are so dumb.

    In our workplace there are handwashing signs everywhere, and extra taps and sinks have been installed. It is also mentioned at every huddle or staff meeting. It just simply is the new normal.

    Masks, distancing, and temperature checks are also part of the daily routine. Everything is being done to protect everyone else and keep the workplace safe.

    IMO, to be honest, if grown *kitten* adults need to be told to wash their hands the train has already left the station and no amount of HR signs and announcements will do any good.

    Yep. The thing that bothers me most about those discussions is that the reaction isn’t ”oh crap I spaced out, will wash immediately” but instead some sort of complaining about not wanting to do it for reason X.

    The rules are in place for a reason, and as head of HR I will be enforcing them. It’s not fair to let the few idiots run wild at the office and risk those who want to come in, focus on their work without at-home distractions, and follow the rules to keep themselves and everyone around the as safe as possible. The office is not a playground for misbehaving children, it’s a workplace where people should be able to be safe and focus on their work like adults.

    From HR viewpoint, people get used to signs so fast they are only useful for a day or two, after that they’re really just virtue signaling that we care and have plans in place, and they show the right message for the few guests that do come in. I’m hoping I don’t have to start actually banning people, hopefully having 1-on-1 discussions about rules being enforced and bans being issued for further non-compliance is enough of a threat.

    (Yeah, I probably shouldn’t call my colleagues idiots or misbehaving children, but I’m human and they’re risking my health too.)
    Goodness, I don’t envy you having to enforce those rules, but good on you for trying.

    As I’ve mentioned before, I have been aware of other people’s germ-spreading behaviors for a while now, due to periodically being on immune-suppressing medication. It’s not a surprise to me that most adults don’t wash their hands, won’t cover their mouths during a cough or sneeze, and are downright hostile if someone suggests that they should avoid others while symptomatic. I work from home and don’t go out much, and caught four separate colds last winter due to others. I can probably pinpoint the exact person who gave me each illness, since they typically came on two to four days after being near the child with fever and a cough lying down on a restaurant booth during an adult drinking party because “I couldn’t leave him with a sitter when he’s sick,” or the lady with a rattling chest cough not covering her mouth and bumping me from behind in line at the grocery. Or the young fireman staring vacantly into space coughing constantly not covering his mouth in the packet pickup tent at a race. In each case I removed myself from the vicinity as soon as I could and it wasn’t good enough. I don’t have servants, it’s not possible for me to avoid all other people, so when a substantial number of them are determined to spread illness, I get sick.

    If this epidemic has any silver lining, I hope it is that it becomes much less socially acceptable to kill other people with your germs. Because doing this kills people, and not just when covid is around. Fragile elderly and immune compromised people exist at all times, and your fever and lingering cough may be someone else’s death sentence.

    One of my kids was sick recently and a doctor had to get involved. We had a conversation and I told her, that even though I am a very conscientious person, I really used to feel that getting sick was inevitable with my little germ-nuggets. And that I didn't think twice on going around when I had sick kids at home. Complete thoughtlessness! :rage: But COVID has brought home that though I'm not currently sick, I could be a carrier and spread it to others outside the family. So I will definitely be more careful in the future when illness is in my family to not be a jerkface carelessly spreading it everywhere.

    One of my friends has a prematurely born daughter with lugn issues so regular flus were extremely dangerous to her as a baby. They couldn’t take her anywhere with public transportation because of the infection risk and every invitation to their home included a ”stay the *kitten* away if you have any symptoms whatsoever” reminder. I admit that pre-covid I thought smaller symptoms like a runny nose or a little cough weren’t a reason to stay home and isolate if I felt otherwise fine and was able to go on about my regular day, and things like her case were the exception. In the future I will definitely stay home with smaller symptoms, and I hope this pandemic permanently changes the current (pre-covid) culture where showing up was more important than knowing when to not show up.

    Now that many workplaces have tried working from home and seen it can be done, I hope in the future ”I feel like I might be getting sick” is a good enough reason to stay home and work from there without employers questioning it. Unrelated, I also hope handshaking will become a thing of the past.

    Saw something recently in the Wall Street Journal that WFH isn't as good as advertised.

    Also, i disagree and hope handshakes, fists bumps etc come back when this is behind us. People are social animals and an appropriate touch is part of that socialization.

    This is the article discussing the perhaps WFH isn't as good on a long term basis. Fine for when people are sick IMO.

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/companies-start-to-think-remote-work-isnt-so-great-after-all-11595603397

    It's popping up behind a paywall now but I was able to read it a few days ago.

    Headline:
    Companies Start to Think Remote Work Isn’t So Great After All
    Projects take longer. Collaboration is harder. And training new workers is a struggle. ‘This is not going to be sustainable.’

    Re: training new workers. We had 4 new employees start during lockdown, and 4 started less than a month before lockdown started. All 4 who started during lockdown and completely from home said it was surprisingly easy and they felt actually more connected to their coworkers since Teams communication and video meetings require people to be more intentional and present than at the office where you can more easily ignore your surroundings. Apparently it’s also helpful to NOT meet everyone on your first day, because you can actually get to know colleagues one by one, and even in large meetings everyone automatically has their name displayed so there’s no awkwardness about being expected to remember the names of all 30 people you were introduced to on your first day.

    2 of the workers who started just before lockdown are entry level. They struggled more because they need more hands-on guidance and training about the actual work than more experienced professionals, and they’re also less confident to speak up and ask in Teams if they’re struggling or need more advice.

    Interesting. Where I work (multi-billion $, multi-national corporation) standard practice is people have the camera off/piece of Post-It Note over the camera so all that is seen in a Teams meeting is the material being presented and pictures of the participants from our corporate directory or blank space. A person in a Teams meeting could be doing Lord knows what and nobody on the meeting would know. Meeting "live" in a conference room it's pretty easy to see who is really engaged IMO.

    We do Zoom meetings, but everyone is visible. It would be considered weird/not acceptable to cover the camera. We don't do lots of meetings in general, however, and lots of team stuff is handled by phone (and pretty easy to tell who is participating, as everyone is supposed to be contributing to the discussion).

    We also have a new lawyer who started just before the stay at home order, who had been a judicial clerk before. It's been pretty impossible to give him the kind of feedback/training he would have received in person in the office.

    Nobody uses video on our Skype meetings. In fact, when at the office, my computer is on the docking station and closed. I couldn't display video in that position anyway.

    We use Zoom, I would say about 50% of the people use their video and 50% don't. There's been no direction or feedback for those of us who aren't using it (I usually don't have it on). Our meetings typically involve lots of presentations of spreadsheets, software details, or blueprints so that's usually what people are focused on.
  • lemurcat2lemurcat2 Member Posts: 5,672 Member Member Posts: 5,672 Member
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »
    lemurcat2 wrote: »
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »
    hipari wrote: »
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »
    hipari wrote: »
    baconslave wrote: »
    hipari wrote: »
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »
    TonyB0588 wrote: »
    hipari wrote: »
    TonyB0588 wrote: »

    Which practices? The ones that many parents taught their children while growing up? Wash your hands before eating. Cover your nose when you sneeze. Wash your hands after using the toilet. Cover your mouth when you cough. Wash your hands after touching money. Don't lie in bed with clothes you wore outdoors. By the way, did I mention wash your hands?

    Why are normal civilized people no longer doing these things??

    After returning to the office for 4 days this week, I’m pretty confident half my coworkers have spent their summer doing drugs or something else to wipe off all brain cells that carry learned human decency and guidelines. It has consistently always been the rule, first as general human decency and then as official HR policy, that you wash your hands with water and soap when you come in to any space from outdoors. We have hand sanitizer bottles all around the office, but at this point everyone should know water and soap are better and hand sanitizer should be used as complementary add-in or when proper hand-washing isn’t available. Some of the discussions I’ve had this week include:

    ”Please wash your hands first, you just came in from outside”
    ”But I only touched a few doorknobs”
    ”Still.” (Me in my head: yeah, you went outside, probably touched your face while smoking, and then used the doors and elevators in this 11-floor office building that has quite a lot of people)

    ”Please wash your hands with water and soap”
    ”But I’m using hand sanitizer”
    ”That’s great as an addition, but doesn’t replace soap”
    ”Huh, since when?”
    ”It never has...”

    After referencing these discussions the CEO gave me permission to start giving personal office bans at my discretion for those who can’t or won’t follow the hygiene rules. At this point being allowed to leave home and come to work at the office is a privilege and those who don’t follow the rules to make it safe for others won’t be allowed to use it. If people want to ignore hygiene and safety rules, they can do it in the privacy of their own home where they won’t risk their colleagues. They just have to deal with focusing on work with their kids jumping around etc., but life is full of choices and everyone is welcome to continue working from home if hand-washing at the office is too much trouble.

    Wow!! I wouldn't want to be the one sending workers back home, but I guess you need to take action if people are so dumb.

    In our workplace there are handwashing signs everywhere, and extra taps and sinks have been installed. It is also mentioned at every huddle or staff meeting. It just simply is the new normal.

    Masks, distancing, and temperature checks are also part of the daily routine. Everything is being done to protect everyone else and keep the workplace safe.

    IMO, to be honest, if grown *kitten* adults need to be told to wash their hands the train has already left the station and no amount of HR signs and announcements will do any good.

    Yep. The thing that bothers me most about those discussions is that the reaction isn’t ”oh crap I spaced out, will wash immediately” but instead some sort of complaining about not wanting to do it for reason X.

    The rules are in place for a reason, and as head of HR I will be enforcing them. It’s not fair to let the few idiots run wild at the office and risk those who want to come in, focus on their work without at-home distractions, and follow the rules to keep themselves and everyone around the as safe as possible. The office is not a playground for misbehaving children, it’s a workplace where people should be able to be safe and focus on their work like adults.

    From HR viewpoint, people get used to signs so fast they are only useful for a day or two, after that they’re really just virtue signaling that we care and have plans in place, and they show the right message for the few guests that do come in. I’m hoping I don’t have to start actually banning people, hopefully having 1-on-1 discussions about rules being enforced and bans being issued for further non-compliance is enough of a threat.

    (Yeah, I probably shouldn’t call my colleagues idiots or misbehaving children, but I’m human and they’re risking my health too.)
    Goodness, I don’t envy you having to enforce those rules, but good on you for trying.

    As I’ve mentioned before, I have been aware of other people’s germ-spreading behaviors for a while now, due to periodically being on immune-suppressing medication. It’s not a surprise to me that most adults don’t wash their hands, won’t cover their mouths during a cough or sneeze, and are downright hostile if someone suggests that they should avoid others while symptomatic. I work from home and don’t go out much, and caught four separate colds last winter due to others. I can probably pinpoint the exact person who gave me each illness, since they typically came on two to four days after being near the child with fever and a cough lying down on a restaurant booth during an adult drinking party because “I couldn’t leave him with a sitter when he’s sick,” or the lady with a rattling chest cough not covering her mouth and bumping me from behind in line at the grocery. Or the young fireman staring vacantly into space coughing constantly not covering his mouth in the packet pickup tent at a race. In each case I removed myself from the vicinity as soon as I could and it wasn’t good enough. I don’t have servants, it’s not possible for me to avoid all other people, so when a substantial number of them are determined to spread illness, I get sick.

    If this epidemic has any silver lining, I hope it is that it becomes much less socially acceptable to kill other people with your germs. Because doing this kills people, and not just when covid is around. Fragile elderly and immune compromised people exist at all times, and your fever and lingering cough may be someone else’s death sentence.

    One of my kids was sick recently and a doctor had to get involved. We had a conversation and I told her, that even though I am a very conscientious person, I really used to feel that getting sick was inevitable with my little germ-nuggets. And that I didn't think twice on going around when I had sick kids at home. Complete thoughtlessness! :rage: But COVID has brought home that though I'm not currently sick, I could be a carrier and spread it to others outside the family. So I will definitely be more careful in the future when illness is in my family to not be a jerkface carelessly spreading it everywhere.

    One of my friends has a prematurely born daughter with lugn issues so regular flus were extremely dangerous to her as a baby. They couldn’t take her anywhere with public transportation because of the infection risk and every invitation to their home included a ”stay the *kitten* away if you have any symptoms whatsoever” reminder. I admit that pre-covid I thought smaller symptoms like a runny nose or a little cough weren’t a reason to stay home and isolate if I felt otherwise fine and was able to go on about my regular day, and things like her case were the exception. In the future I will definitely stay home with smaller symptoms, and I hope this pandemic permanently changes the current (pre-covid) culture where showing up was more important than knowing when to not show up.

    Now that many workplaces have tried working from home and seen it can be done, I hope in the future ”I feel like I might be getting sick” is a good enough reason to stay home and work from there without employers questioning it. Unrelated, I also hope handshaking will become a thing of the past.

    Saw something recently in the Wall Street Journal that WFH isn't as good as advertised.

    Also, i disagree and hope handshakes, fists bumps etc come back when this is behind us. People are social animals and an appropriate touch is part of that socialization.

    This is the article discussing the perhaps WFH isn't as good on a long term basis. Fine for when people are sick IMO.

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/companies-start-to-think-remote-work-isnt-so-great-after-all-11595603397

    It's popping up behind a paywall now but I was able to read it a few days ago.

    Headline:
    Companies Start to Think Remote Work Isn’t So Great After All
    Projects take longer. Collaboration is harder. And training new workers is a struggle. ‘This is not going to be sustainable.’

    Re: training new workers. We had 4 new employees start during lockdown, and 4 started less than a month before lockdown started. All 4 who started during lockdown and completely from home said it was surprisingly easy and they felt actually more connected to their coworkers since Teams communication and video meetings require people to be more intentional and present than at the office where you can more easily ignore your surroundings. Apparently it’s also helpful to NOT meet everyone on your first day, because you can actually get to know colleagues one by one, and even in large meetings everyone automatically has their name displayed so there’s no awkwardness about being expected to remember the names of all 30 people you were introduced to on your first day.

    2 of the workers who started just before lockdown are entry level. They struggled more because they need more hands-on guidance and training about the actual work than more experienced professionals, and they’re also less confident to speak up and ask in Teams if they’re struggling or need more advice.

    Interesting. Where I work (multi-billion $, multi-national corporation) standard practice is people have the camera off/piece of Post-It Note over the camera so all that is seen in a Teams meeting is the material being presented and pictures of the participants from our corporate directory or blank space. A person in a Teams meeting could be doing Lord knows what and nobody on the meeting would know. Meeting "live" in a conference room it's pretty easy to see who is really engaged IMO.

    We do Zoom meetings, but everyone is visible. It would be considered weird/not acceptable to cover the camera. We don't do lots of meetings in general, however, and lots of team stuff is handled by phone (and pretty easy to tell who is participating, as everyone is supposed to be contributing to the discussion).

    We also have a new lawyer who started just before the stay at home order, who had been a judicial clerk before. It's been pretty impossible to give him the kind of feedback/training he would have received in person in the office.

    I work in finance at a manufacturing company. The vast majority of Microsoft Teams meetings I'm in involve finance, engineering manufacturing and purchasing professionals. The meetings virtually always have a presentation to keep the meeting focused as well as present information for discussion/decision making. With the presentation showing the squares for each participants picture is at most an inch square. Really too small to be of any value.

    IMO, remote training can work well for some clerical/support jobs but for professional/technical jobs where there are many factors going into a decision that don't fit neatly into a flowchart, the ability to turn around and have a discussion with a coworker, that is overheard by another coworker who joins in the discussion is critical. That was the point brought out in the WSJ article I linked.

    Now if someone needs to WFH during an illness do so.

    Yeah, I'm talking about smaller, interactive meetings where people are expected to participate, not a presentation.
  • Theoldguy1Theoldguy1 Member Posts: 1,235 Member Member Posts: 1,235 Member
    lemurcat2 wrote: »
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »
    lemurcat2 wrote: »
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »
    hipari wrote: »
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »
    hipari wrote: »
    baconslave wrote: »
    hipari wrote: »
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »
    TonyB0588 wrote: »
    hipari wrote: »
    TonyB0588 wrote: »

    Which practices? The ones that many parents taught their children while growing up? Wash your hands before eating. Cover your nose when you sneeze. Wash your hands after using the toilet. Cover your mouth when you cough. Wash your hands after touching money. Don't lie in bed with clothes you wore outdoors. By the way, did I mention wash your hands?

    Why are normal civilized people no longer doing these things??

    After returning to the office for 4 days this week, I’m pretty confident half my coworkers have spent their summer doing drugs or something else to wipe off all brain cells that carry learned human decency and guidelines. It has consistently always been the rule, first as general human decency and then as official HR policy, that you wash your hands with water and soap when you come in to any space from outdoors. We have hand sanitizer bottles all around the office, but at this point everyone should know water and soap are better and hand sanitizer should be used as complementary add-in or when proper hand-washing isn’t available. Some of the discussions I’ve had this week include:

    ”Please wash your hands first, you just came in from outside”
    ”But I only touched a few doorknobs”
    ”Still.” (Me in my head: yeah, you went outside, probably touched your face while smoking, and then used the doors and elevators in this 11-floor office building that has quite a lot of people)

    ”Please wash your hands with water and soap”
    ”But I’m using hand sanitizer”
    ”That’s great as an addition, but doesn’t replace soap”
    ”Huh, since when?”
    ”It never has...”

    After referencing these discussions the CEO gave me permission to start giving personal office bans at my discretion for those who can’t or won’t follow the hygiene rules. At this point being allowed to leave home and come to work at the office is a privilege and those who don’t follow the rules to make it safe for others won’t be allowed to use it. If people want to ignore hygiene and safety rules, they can do it in the privacy of their own home where they won’t risk their colleagues. They just have to deal with focusing on work with their kids jumping around etc., but life is full of choices and everyone is welcome to continue working from home if hand-washing at the office is too much trouble.

    Wow!! I wouldn't want to be the one sending workers back home, but I guess you need to take action if people are so dumb.

    In our workplace there are handwashing signs everywhere, and extra taps and sinks have been installed. It is also mentioned at every huddle or staff meeting. It just simply is the new normal.

    Masks, distancing, and temperature checks are also part of the daily routine. Everything is being done to protect everyone else and keep the workplace safe.

    IMO, to be honest, if grown *kitten* adults need to be told to wash their hands the train has already left the station and no amount of HR signs and announcements will do any good.

    Yep. The thing that bothers me most about those discussions is that the reaction isn’t ”oh crap I spaced out, will wash immediately” but instead some sort of complaining about not wanting to do it for reason X.

    The rules are in place for a reason, and as head of HR I will be enforcing them. It’s not fair to let the few idiots run wild at the office and risk those who want to come in, focus on their work without at-home distractions, and follow the rules to keep themselves and everyone around the as safe as possible. The office is not a playground for misbehaving children, it’s a workplace where people should be able to be safe and focus on their work like adults.

    From HR viewpoint, people get used to signs so fast they are only useful for a day or two, after that they’re really just virtue signaling that we care and have plans in place, and they show the right message for the few guests that do come in. I’m hoping I don’t have to start actually banning people, hopefully having 1-on-1 discussions about rules being enforced and bans being issued for further non-compliance is enough of a threat.

    (Yeah, I probably shouldn’t call my colleagues idiots or misbehaving children, but I’m human and they’re risking my health too.)
    Goodness, I don’t envy you having to enforce those rules, but good on you for trying.

    As I’ve mentioned before, I have been aware of other people’s germ-spreading behaviors for a while now, due to periodically being on immune-suppressing medication. It’s not a surprise to me that most adults don’t wash their hands, won’t cover their mouths during a cough or sneeze, and are downright hostile if someone suggests that they should avoid others while symptomatic. I work from home and don’t go out much, and caught four separate colds last winter due to others. I can probably pinpoint the exact person who gave me each illness, since they typically came on two to four days after being near the child with fever and a cough lying down on a restaurant booth during an adult drinking party because “I couldn’t leave him with a sitter when he’s sick,” or the lady with a rattling chest cough not covering her mouth and bumping me from behind in line at the grocery. Or the young fireman staring vacantly into space coughing constantly not covering his mouth in the packet pickup tent at a race. In each case I removed myself from the vicinity as soon as I could and it wasn’t good enough. I don’t have servants, it’s not possible for me to avoid all other people, so when a substantial number of them are determined to spread illness, I get sick.

    If this epidemic has any silver lining, I hope it is that it becomes much less socially acceptable to kill other people with your germs. Because doing this kills people, and not just when covid is around. Fragile elderly and immune compromised people exist at all times, and your fever and lingering cough may be someone else’s death sentence.

    One of my kids was sick recently and a doctor had to get involved. We had a conversation and I told her, that even though I am a very conscientious person, I really used to feel that getting sick was inevitable with my little germ-nuggets. And that I didn't think twice on going around when I had sick kids at home. Complete thoughtlessness! :rage: But COVID has brought home that though I'm not currently sick, I could be a carrier and spread it to others outside the family. So I will definitely be more careful in the future when illness is in my family to not be a jerkface carelessly spreading it everywhere.

    One of my friends has a prematurely born daughter with lugn issues so regular flus were extremely dangerous to her as a baby. They couldn’t take her anywhere with public transportation because of the infection risk and every invitation to their home included a ”stay the *kitten* away if you have any symptoms whatsoever” reminder. I admit that pre-covid I thought smaller symptoms like a runny nose or a little cough weren’t a reason to stay home and isolate if I felt otherwise fine and was able to go on about my regular day, and things like her case were the exception. In the future I will definitely stay home with smaller symptoms, and I hope this pandemic permanently changes the current (pre-covid) culture where showing up was more important than knowing when to not show up.

    Now that many workplaces have tried working from home and seen it can be done, I hope in the future ”I feel like I might be getting sick” is a good enough reason to stay home and work from there without employers questioning it. Unrelated, I also hope handshaking will become a thing of the past.

    Saw something recently in the Wall Street Journal that WFH isn't as good as advertised.

    Also, i disagree and hope handshakes, fists bumps etc come back when this is behind us. People are social animals and an appropriate touch is part of that socialization.

    This is the article discussing the perhaps WFH isn't as good on a long term basis. Fine for when people are sick IMO.

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/companies-start-to-think-remote-work-isnt-so-great-after-all-11595603397

    It's popping up behind a paywall now but I was able to read it a few days ago.

    Headline:
    Companies Start to Think Remote Work Isn’t So Great After All
    Projects take longer. Collaboration is harder. And training new workers is a struggle. ‘This is not going to be sustainable.’

    Re: training new workers. We had 4 new employees start during lockdown, and 4 started less than a month before lockdown started. All 4 who started during lockdown and completely from home said it was surprisingly easy and they felt actually more connected to their coworkers since Teams communication and video meetings require people to be more intentional and present than at the office where you can more easily ignore your surroundings. Apparently it’s also helpful to NOT meet everyone on your first day, because you can actually get to know colleagues one by one, and even in large meetings everyone automatically has their name displayed so there’s no awkwardness about being expected to remember the names of all 30 people you were introduced to on your first day.

    2 of the workers who started just before lockdown are entry level. They struggled more because they need more hands-on guidance and training about the actual work than more experienced professionals, and they’re also less confident to speak up and ask in Teams if they’re struggling or need more advice.

    Interesting. Where I work (multi-billion $, multi-national corporation) standard practice is people have the camera off/piece of Post-It Note over the camera so all that is seen in a Teams meeting is the material being presented and pictures of the participants from our corporate directory or blank space. A person in a Teams meeting could be doing Lord knows what and nobody on the meeting would know. Meeting "live" in a conference room it's pretty easy to see who is really engaged IMO.

    We do Zoom meetings, but everyone is visible. It would be considered weird/not acceptable to cover the camera. We don't do lots of meetings in general, however, and lots of team stuff is handled by phone (and pretty easy to tell who is participating, as everyone is supposed to be contributing to the discussion).

    We also have a new lawyer who started just before the stay at home order, who had been a judicial clerk before. It's been pretty impossible to give him the kind of feedback/training he would have received in person in the office.

    I work in finance at a manufacturing company. The vast majority of Microsoft Teams meetings I'm in involve finance, engineering manufacturing and purchasing professionals. The meetings virtually always have a presentation to keep the meeting focused as well as present information for discussion/decision making. With the presentation showing the squares for each participants picture is at most an inch square. Really too small to be of any value.

    IMO, remote training can work well for some clerical/support jobs but for professional/technical jobs where there are many factors going into a decision that don't fit neatly into a flowchart, the ability to turn around and have a discussion with a coworker, that is overheard by another coworker who joins in the discussion is critical. That was the point brought out in the WSJ article I linked.

    Now if someone needs to WFH during an illness do so.

    Yeah, I'm talking about smaller, interactive meetings where people are expected to participate, not a presentation.

    We do a lot of working sessions where we are discussing material with 3D part prints, manufacturing layouts, tables of material prices being duscussed so concentrate on material not a small video of the people in the meeting.
  • baconslavebaconslave Member Posts: 6,030 Member Member Posts: 6,030 Member
    ElioraFR wrote: »
    Could someone explain to me how they would do an 'elbow bump' while maintaining the 2 meter or 6 foot social distancimg?

    Maybe some people could do it, I know my upper arms are not long enough

    I was under the impression that we were talking about resuming greetings P.P., Post Pandemic. :smile:
  • lemurcat2lemurcat2 Member Posts: 5,672 Member Member Posts: 5,672 Member
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »
    lemurcat2 wrote: »
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »
    lemurcat2 wrote: »
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »
    hipari wrote: »
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »
    hipari wrote: »
    baconslave wrote: »
    hipari wrote: »
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »
    TonyB0588 wrote: »
    hipari wrote: »
    TonyB0588 wrote: »

    Which practices? The ones that many parents taught their children while growing up? Wash your hands before eating. Cover your nose when you sneeze. Wash your hands after using the toilet. Cover your mouth when you cough. Wash your hands after touching money. Don't lie in bed with clothes you wore outdoors. By the way, did I mention wash your hands?

    Why are normal civilized people no longer doing these things??

    After returning to the office for 4 days this week, I’m pretty confident half my coworkers have spent their summer doing drugs or something else to wipe off all brain cells that carry learned human decency and guidelines. It has consistently always been the rule, first as general human decency and then as official HR policy, that you wash your hands with water and soap when you come in to any space from outdoors. We have hand sanitizer bottles all around the office, but at this point everyone should know water and soap are better and hand sanitizer should be used as complementary add-in or when proper hand-washing isn’t available. Some of the discussions I’ve had this week include:

    ”Please wash your hands first, you just came in from outside”
    ”But I only touched a few doorknobs”
    ”Still.” (Me in my head: yeah, you went outside, probably touched your face while smoking, and then used the doors and elevators in this 11-floor office building that has quite a lot of people)

    ”Please wash your hands with water and soap”
    ”But I’m using hand sanitizer”
    ”That’s great as an addition, but doesn’t replace soap”
    ”Huh, since when?”
    ”It never has...”

    After referencing these discussions the CEO gave me permission to start giving personal office bans at my discretion for those who can’t or won’t follow the hygiene rules. At this point being allowed to leave home and come to work at the office is a privilege and those who don’t follow the rules to make it safe for others won’t be allowed to use it. If people want to ignore hygiene and safety rules, they can do it in the privacy of their own home where they won’t risk their colleagues. They just have to deal with focusing on work with their kids jumping around etc., but life is full of choices and everyone is welcome to continue working from home if hand-washing at the office is too much trouble.

    Wow!! I wouldn't want to be the one sending workers back home, but I guess you need to take action if people are so dumb.

    In our workplace there are handwashing signs everywhere, and extra taps and sinks have been installed. It is also mentioned at every huddle or staff meeting. It just simply is the new normal.

    Masks, distancing, and temperature checks are also part of the daily routine. Everything is being done to protect everyone else and keep the workplace safe.

    IMO, to be honest, if grown *kitten* adults need to be told to wash their hands the train has already left the station and no amount of HR signs and announcements will do any good.

    Yep. The thing that bothers me most about those discussions is that the reaction isn’t ”oh crap I spaced out, will wash immediately” but instead some sort of complaining about not wanting to do it for reason X.

    The rules are in place for a reason, and as head of HR I will be enforcing them. It’s not fair to let the few idiots run wild at the office and risk those who want to come in, focus on their work without at-home distractions, and follow the rules to keep themselves and everyone around the as safe as possible. The office is not a playground for misbehaving children, it’s a workplace where people should be able to be safe and focus on their work like adults.

    From HR viewpoint, people get used to signs so fast they are only useful for a day or two, after that they’re really just virtue signaling that we care and have plans in place, and they show the right message for the few guests that do come in. I’m hoping I don’t have to start actually banning people, hopefully having 1-on-1 discussions about rules being enforced and bans being issued for further non-compliance is enough of a threat.

    (Yeah, I probably shouldn’t call my colleagues idiots or misbehaving children, but I’m human and they’re risking my health too.)
    Goodness, I don’t envy you having to enforce those rules, but good on you for trying.

    As I’ve mentioned before, I have been aware of other people’s germ-spreading behaviors for a while now, due to periodically being on immune-suppressing medication. It’s not a surprise to me that most adults don’t wash their hands, won’t cover their mouths during a cough or sneeze, and are downright hostile if someone suggests that they should avoid others while symptomatic. I work from home and don’t go out much, and caught four separate colds last winter due to others. I can probably pinpoint the exact person who gave me each illness, since they typically came on two to four days after being near the child with fever and a cough lying down on a restaurant booth during an adult drinking party because “I couldn’t leave him with a sitter when he’s sick,” or the lady with a rattling chest cough not covering her mouth and bumping me from behind in line at the grocery. Or the young fireman staring vacantly into space coughing constantly not covering his mouth in the packet pickup tent at a race. In each case I removed myself from the vicinity as soon as I could and it wasn’t good enough. I don’t have servants, it’s not possible for me to avoid all other people, so when a substantial number of them are determined to spread illness, I get sick.

    If this epidemic has any silver lining, I hope it is that it becomes much less socially acceptable to kill other people with your germs. Because doing this kills people, and not just when covid is around. Fragile elderly and immune compromised people exist at all times, and your fever and lingering cough may be someone else’s death sentence.

    One of my kids was sick recently and a doctor had to get involved. We had a conversation and I told her, that even though I am a very conscientious person, I really used to feel that getting sick was inevitable with my little germ-nuggets. And that I didn't think twice on going around when I had sick kids at home. Complete thoughtlessness! :rage: But COVID has brought home that though I'm not currently sick, I could be a carrier and spread it to others outside the family. So I will definitely be more careful in the future when illness is in my family to not be a jerkface carelessly spreading it everywhere.

    One of my friends has a prematurely born daughter with lugn issues so regular flus were extremely dangerous to her as a baby. They couldn’t take her anywhere with public transportation because of the infection risk and every invitation to their home included a ”stay the *kitten* away if you have any symptoms whatsoever” reminder. I admit that pre-covid I thought smaller symptoms like a runny nose or a little cough weren’t a reason to stay home and isolate if I felt otherwise fine and was able to go on about my regular day, and things like her case were the exception. In the future I will definitely stay home with smaller symptoms, and I hope this pandemic permanently changes the current (pre-covid) culture where showing up was more important than knowing when to not show up.

    Now that many workplaces have tried working from home and seen it can be done, I hope in the future ”I feel like I might be getting sick” is a good enough reason to stay home and work from there without employers questioning it. Unrelated, I also hope handshaking will become a thing of the past.

    Saw something recently in the Wall Street Journal that WFH isn't as good as advertised.

    Also, i disagree and hope handshakes, fists bumps etc come back when this is behind us. People are social animals and an appropriate touch is part of that socialization.

    This is the article discussing the perhaps WFH isn't as good on a long term basis. Fine for when people are sick IMO.

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/companies-start-to-think-remote-work-isnt-so-great-after-all-11595603397

    It's popping up behind a paywall now but I was able to read it a few days ago.

    Headline:
    Companies Start to Think Remote Work Isn’t So Great After All
    Projects take longer. Collaboration is harder. And training new workers is a struggle. ‘This is not going to be sustainable.’

    Re: training new workers. We had 4 new employees start during lockdown, and 4 started less than a month before lockdown started. All 4 who started during lockdown and completely from home said it was surprisingly easy and they felt actually more connected to their coworkers since Teams communication and video meetings require people to be more intentional and present than at the office where you can more easily ignore your surroundings. Apparently it’s also helpful to NOT meet everyone on your first day, because you can actually get to know colleagues one by one, and even in large meetings everyone automatically has their name displayed so there’s no awkwardness about being expected to remember the names of all 30 people you were introduced to on your first day.

    2 of the workers who started just before lockdown are entry level. They struggled more because they need more hands-on guidance and training about the actual work than more experienced professionals, and they’re also less confident to speak up and ask in Teams if they’re struggling or need more advice.

    Interesting. Where I work (multi-billion $, multi-national corporation) standard practice is people have the camera off/piece of Post-It Note over the camera so all that is seen in a Teams meeting is the material being presented and pictures of the participants from our corporate directory or blank space. A person in a Teams meeting could be doing Lord knows what and nobody on the meeting would know. Meeting "live" in a conference room it's pretty easy to see who is really engaged IMO.

    We do Zoom meetings, but everyone is visible. It would be considered weird/not acceptable to cover the camera. We don't do lots of meetings in general, however, and lots of team stuff is handled by phone (and pretty easy to tell who is participating, as everyone is supposed to be contributing to the discussion).

    We also have a new lawyer who started just before the stay at home order, who had been a judicial clerk before. It's been pretty impossible to give him the kind of feedback/training he would have received in person in the office.

    I work in finance at a manufacturing company. The vast majority of Microsoft Teams meetings I'm in involve finance, engineering manufacturing and purchasing professionals. The meetings virtually always have a presentation to keep the meeting focused as well as present information for discussion/decision making. With the presentation showing the squares for each participants picture is at most an inch square. Really too small to be of any value.

    IMO, remote training can work well for some clerical/support jobs but for professional/technical jobs where there are many factors going into a decision that don't fit neatly into a flowchart, the ability to turn around and have a discussion with a coworker, that is overheard by another coworker who joins in the discussion is critical. That was the point brought out in the WSJ article I linked.

    Now if someone needs to WFH during an illness do so.

    Yeah, I'm talking about smaller, interactive meetings where people are expected to participate, not a presentation.

    We do a lot of working sessions where we are discussing material with 3D part prints, manufacturing layouts, tables of material prices being duscussed so concentrate on material not a small video of the people in the meeting.

    Yes, that makes sense. I wouldn't think people not actually participating (i.e., taking advantage of the camera being off, as you said before) would be a big issue in an interactive session, though. If it's the kind of meeting where not everyone really has to be there (a pet peeve of mine is excessive and unnecessary meetings), then I wouldn't think it was that big an issue. But anyway sounds like your kinds of necessary meetings are quite different from the ones I attend. We never did video meetings back when everyone was in the office.
  • ElioraFRElioraFR Member Posts: 61 Member Member Posts: 61 Member
    Diatonic12 wrote: »
    Cafe Rio and St. George. Ayup. Sooo good. St. George has really grown.


    Last night, I drove by our local yocal restaurants. They were cram jammed with pesky tourists from all over the U.S. Some of these buildings have been around since the 1800's and they're rickety boxes of wood. Now if you only knew that during the midnight hours that mice are running around the countertops and all over the tables you wouldn't be so gung-ho to go in there but wild horses won't keep the tourists away.

    I wish they'd all go home but they won't. They're all blowing through here on their way to the big moto rally and they'll be baaaaack. They always come back and this time they'll be bringing 'Rona with them. Gives me a really big pinch. Sure does.

    Can't help it. This is still my favorite meme.


    c3sliby2tnpl.png

    Yah! Living in tourist zones is BGS ( Big Stress Zone). Boo!
  • TonyB0588TonyB0588 Member Posts: 9,053 Member Member Posts: 9,053 Member
    ElioraFR wrote: »
    Could someone explain to me how they would do an 'elbow bump' while maintaining the 2 meter or 6 foot social distancimg?

    Maybe some people could do it, I know my upper arms are not long enough

    I think the idea would be to bump and keep on moving. No standing around for social conversation.
  • Diatonic12Diatonic12 Member Posts: 6,470 Member Member Posts: 6,470 Member
    Don't hand me no lines and keep your hands and bumps to yourself. Good decision, Tony.
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