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  • xxxpopeyexxxxxxpopeyexxx Member Posts: 39 Member Member Posts: 39 Member
    lemurcat2 wrote: »
    lemurcat2 wrote: »
    Lillymoo01 wrote: »
    probably should go low carb, @100 grams/day, but still lose the bread. it's of limited nutritional value. vegetables are quick and easy. just needs proper dressing and/or seasoning. as are nuts, legumes and dairy.

    Or keep the bread if it is something you enjoy and something you know you will crave if you don't have it. The best way of losing weight is the one that you can adhere to long term, well into maintenance. It isn't just about losing weight but how to keep that weight off indefinitely once you achieve your goal. Don't make changes that you know you won't stick with. This just leads to yoyo dieting for most.

    by that way of thinking, why give up anything you crave if it's going to cause discomfort. and why even make changes to your diet or lifestyle at all.

    there was once a time when i thought there were many foods i couldn't live without, including ice cream, starchy vegetables, pasta, and bread too. that was until i found out i could live without them.

    of course it'll take time to overcome cravings, and instead follow your good sense, and choose nutritionally dense foods. it won't happen overnight. but replacing the junk with nutritionally dense lower carb food should still be a long term goal. and until that time happens portion control should be exercised.

    Exactly, why arbitrarily give up anything you crave if you feel better moderating it? That's how I lost the weight. I didn't give up anything, but I changed how much and/or how often I consume it. Some things felt better to lightly moderate, other things felt better to strictly moderate. If it causes less discomfort than the alternative but the end result is the same, why pick the harder route?

    I mean, yes, anyone can give up anything they choose and get used to that, but the question is: do they need to? Does it make their life easier? Is the change sustainable? Will being exposed to these foods feel harder or easier when they give them up (like in the case of social eating, for example)? All of these questions are worth asking because the best change is the easiest change you can make to achieve your goal and sustain it.

    Giving up bread and starchy carbs, in my case, would interfere with my goal of weight maintenance because they fill me up the most and I'm more likely to feel hungry without them.

    i'm not saying you can't lose weight on other diets, but bread is simply not compatible with the op's keto diet or even low carb diet. it contains too many carbs.

    i started out on a low calorie diet, low fat diet, and did lose weight, but my diet was lacking important nutrients, while consuming to much of the of the not so good nutrients like sodium and sugar, and i also felt like i was half starving myself all the time. once i changed to low carbohydrate and higher fat, i was able to eat a much higher quantity of food, enabling me to obtain high amounts of all the important nutrients, and never feel hungry. i completely lost every trace of my love handles, and have the body type of a fit 19 year old, and a bmi in the 19 range.

    to maintain lean weight in a healthy way, you need to emphasize food quality first of all.

    500 calories from bread and 500 calories from an avocado and a few eggs are entirely different. they have the same amount of energy, but the nutrients found in avocado and eggs far exceed the minuscule amount of nutrients that bread has. on keto, Meat Fish Dairy Eggs Vegetables Fruit (especially avocado, olives, berries) are acceptable.



    To have a healthy diet you need to have a good balance of nutrients. This can be achieved with or without keto. Your experience is important because it's yours. It simply means you do better eating a keto diet. Not everyone shares your experience. I was starving all the time on keto when I tried it.

    You can't really compare individual foods because most people's diets are made up of several foods. The comparison is also highly skewed to show the benefits of a certain eating philosophy. Why aren't you comparing 500 calories of bread (which does have a variety of nutrients) to 500 calories of oil or butter (which have a poor variety of nutrients but are compatible with keto)? Why aren't you comparing 500 calories of beans (which are highly nutritious but not compatible with keto) to 500 calories of bacon grease?

    i never said was on a keto diet. i recommended a low carb diet @100 grams of carbs/day, to the op.

    foods certainly can be compared, and bread ranks poorly in comparison, nutritionally, to most vegetables or other keto diet items.

    This isn't true. Obviously anyone should eat plenty of veg, but I don't think people choose between bread and vegetables. Bread, on keto, would be replaced with higher fat items, some of which are nutritionally dense (avocado, nuts and seeds) but others of which may or may not be filling, depending on the person, but the added fat doesn't add much in the way of nutrients. Examples are cheese, creamy sauces, high fat cuts of meats, so on. Sure, those have some nutrients (as does bread) but you could get the same nutrients in fewer cals with somewhat lower fat choices.

    The reason someone might like to include bread or rice or pasta in their diet is not because they are replacing veg, again, but because they find a meal made up of veg, protein, and a starch one of the most delicious and sating ways to eat, and many of the most healthy diets in the world include plenty of starches, as well as veg and fruit (the latter of which also is pretty difficult to fit in on keto).

    I'm not down on keto and if OP seemed like she really wanted to do it and thought it would work for her, I'd encourage her. I also personally don't care about bread one bit (I do like fruit and other starches). But it's simply not true that keto or other lower carb diets are inherently healthier or better for weight loss than other ways of eating (that may well include bread as well as veg).

    I tried keto as an experiment and used all my carbs for veg plus half an avocado sometimes, a serving of nuts/seeds and occasional full fat plain greek yogurt, and found I was usually having to eat fewer veg than I normally do, fewer nuts and seeds than I normally do (I prefer a couple of servings a day), obviously less fruit, as my only fruit was the half avocado, and I was cutting out other things I think are healthy and satisfying (like beans and lentils, potatoes and sweet potatoes, occasional whole grains) as well as some foods I just like. I also was eating more meat than I normally prefer. So while I absolutely think it can be healthy (or that eating low carb can be healthy), I didn't find that my diet was healthier eating that way and I also did not find it more satisfying.

    i never said a low carb diet is the best diet. what the best diet is could be debated until the end of time. i have just related my own experience, that i can eat more, am never hungry, and have gotten downright lean on a low carb diet. not to mention i'm easily getting all my nutritional needs.

    This is also true for many not on low carb diets. OP may have very sound reasons for wanting to try keto, or she may have just heard it's better for weight loss -- that's why people asked her.
    however, if the op is considering keto, bread's definitely off limits. and is not even a good choice for a low carb diet, unless eaten only occasionally.

    I didn't eat bread when I was doing keto, since I used up all my carbs on foods I personally prioritize more. However, worth noting that there are low carb breads (this new TJ bread is supposed to be tasty), and plenty of people doing keto around here seem to include low carb bread or wraps.

    But in any case absolutely no one has told OP she can do keto without eliminating or restricting bread. They've told her that she can lose weight and eat healthfully while eating bread if she finds the idea of eliminating it unpleasant.

    Not sure what your point re the beef was supposed to be, but as I noted the bread for someone doing keto (as well as the fruit, the beans, the sweet potato, etc.) would not be substituted by beef (assuming the person already ate beef), but by fat -- higher fat cuts of beef (which have no nutritional advantages and might have some negatives if eaten more heavily), cheese, cream sauces, added oils and butter, etc. Not that those things can't be fine in moderation in a healthful diet, but the idea that having more of them and cutting out bread and other starches is inherently healthier is not accurate.

    (I did eat more meat when doing keto, as noted, but the meat replaced vegetarian sources of protein like beans and lentils and plain greek yogurt, as well as the additional smaller sources of some protein I would eat like the additional serving of nuts and seeds, and occasional whole grains, which add up.)

    bread is not compatible with keto, and there are far better choices than bread nutritionally. not sure why that's so hard to understand.

    if you don't understand the point, i suggest re-reading the post.

    bread can be replaced by numerous things, vegetables, dairy, nuts, berries, etc.

  • xxxpopeyexxxxxxpopeyexxx Member Posts: 39 Member Member Posts: 39 Member
    mmapags wrote: »
    lemurcat2 wrote: »
    Lillymoo01 wrote: »
    probably should go low carb, @100 grams/day, but still lose the bread. it's of limited nutritional value. vegetables are quick and easy. just needs proper dressing and/or seasoning. as are nuts, legumes and dairy.

    Or keep the bread if it is something you enjoy and something you know you will crave if you don't have it. The best way of losing weight is the one that you can adhere to long term, well into maintenance. It isn't just about losing weight but how to keep that weight off indefinitely once you achieve your goal. Don't make changes that you know you won't stick with. This just leads to yoyo dieting for most.

    by that way of thinking, why give up anything you crave if it's going to cause discomfort. and why even make changes to your diet or lifestyle at all.

    there was once a time when i thought there were many foods i couldn't live without, including ice cream, starchy vegetables, pasta, and bread too. that was until i found out i could live without them.

    of course it'll take time to overcome cravings, and instead follow your good sense, and choose nutritionally dense foods. it won't happen overnight. but replacing the junk with nutritionally dense lower carb food should still be a long term goal. and until that time happens portion control should be exercised.

    Exactly, why arbitrarily give up anything you crave if you feel better moderating it? That's how I lost the weight. I didn't give up anything, but I changed how much and/or how often I consume it. Some things felt better to lightly moderate, other things felt better to strictly moderate. If it causes less discomfort than the alternative but the end result is the same, why pick the harder route?

    I mean, yes, anyone can give up anything they choose and get used to that, but the question is: do they need to? Does it make their life easier? Is the change sustainable? Will being exposed to these foods feel harder or easier when they give them up (like in the case of social eating, for example)? All of these questions are worth asking because the best change is the easiest change you can make to achieve your goal and sustain it.

    Giving up bread and starchy carbs, in my case, would interfere with my goal of weight maintenance because they fill me up the most and I'm more likely to feel hungry without them.

    i'm not saying you can't lose weight on other diets, but bread is simply not compatible with the op's keto diet or even low carb diet. it contains too many carbs.

    i started out on a low calorie diet, low fat diet, and did lose weight, but my diet was lacking important nutrients, while consuming to much of the of the not so good nutrients like sodium and sugar, and i also felt like i was half starving myself all the time. once i changed to low carbohydrate and higher fat, i was able to eat a much higher quantity of food, enabling me to obtain high amounts of all the important nutrients, and never feel hungry. i completely lost every trace of my love handles, and have the body type of a fit 19 year old, and a bmi in the 19 range.

    to maintain lean weight in a healthy way, you need to emphasize food quality first of all.

    500 calories from bread and 500 calories from an avocado and a few eggs are entirely different. they have the same amount of energy, but the nutrients found in avocado and eggs far exceed the minuscule amount of nutrients that bread has. on keto, Meat Fish Dairy Eggs Vegetables Fruit (especially avocado, olives, berries) are acceptable.



    To have a healthy diet you need to have a good balance of nutrients. This can be achieved with or without keto. Your experience is important because it's yours. It simply means you do better eating a keto diet. Not everyone shares your experience. I was starving all the time on keto when I tried it.

    You can't really compare individual foods because most people's diets are made up of several foods. The comparison is also highly skewed to show the benefits of a certain eating philosophy. Why aren't you comparing 500 calories of bread (which does have a variety of nutrients) to 500 calories of oil or butter (which have a poor variety of nutrients but are compatible with keto)? Why aren't you comparing 500 calories of beans (which are highly nutritious but not compatible with keto) to 500 calories of bacon grease?

    i never said was on a keto diet. i recommended a low carb diet @100 grams of carbs/day, to the op.

    foods certainly can be compared, and bread ranks poorly in comparison, nutritionally, to most vegetables or other keto diet items.

    This isn't true. Obviously anyone should eat plenty of veg, but I don't think people choose between bread and vegetables. Bread, on keto, would be replaced with higher fat items, some of which are nutritionally dense (avocado, nuts and seeds) but others of which may or may not be filling, depending on the person, but the added fat doesn't add much in the way of nutrients. Examples are cheese, creamy sauces, high fat cuts of meats, so on. Sure, those have some nutrients (as does bread) but you could get the same nutrients in fewer cals with somewhat lower fat choices.

    The reason someone might like to include bread or rice or pasta in their diet is not because they are replacing veg, again, but because they find a meal made up of veg, protein, and a starch one of the most delicious and sating ways to eat, and many of the most healthy diets in the world include plenty of starches, as well as veg and fruit (the latter of which also is pretty difficult to fit in on keto).

    I'm not down on keto and if OP seemed like she really wanted to do it and thought it would work for her, I'd encourage her. I also personally don't care about bread one bit (I do like fruit and other starches). But it's simply not true that keto or other lower carb diets are inherently healthier or better for weight loss than other ways of eating (that may well include bread as well as veg).

    I tried keto as an experiment and used all my carbs for veg plus half an avocado sometimes, a serving of nuts/seeds and occasional full fat plain greek yogurt, and found I was usually having to eat fewer veg than I normally do, fewer nuts and seeds than I normally do (I prefer a couple of servings a day), obviously less fruit, as my only fruit was the half avocado, and I was cutting out other things I think are healthy and satisfying (like beans and lentils, potatoes and sweet potatoes, occasional whole grains) as well as some foods I just like. I also was eating more meat than I normally prefer. So while I absolutely think it can be healthy (or that eating low carb can be healthy), I didn't find that my diet was healthier eating that way and I also did not find it more satisfying.

    i never said a low carb diet is the best diet. what the best diet is could be debated until the end of time. i have just related my own experience, that i can eat more, am never hungry, and have gotten downright lean on a low carb diet. not to mention i'm easily getting all my nutritional needs.

    however, if the op is considering keto, bread's definitely off limits. and is not even a good choice for a low carb diet, unless eaten only occasionally.

    i'm am a vegetarian but a 3.5 oz serving of beef:

    Calories: 205
    Protein: About 27 grams
    Riboflavin: 15% of the Daily Value (DV)
    Niacin: 24% of the DV
    Vitamin B6: 19% of the DV
    Vitamin B12: 158% of the DV
    Niacin: 24% of the DV
    Phosphorus: 19% of the DV
    Zinc: 68% of the DV
    Selenium: 36% of the DV

    now compare that to a serving of bread.

    She is considering keto because she thinks it's the best choice but feels she won't be able to do it. She would have gotten very different answers had she not expressed distress over having to do keto.

    Comparing single food nutrients means little on its own. You need to consider an entire day's worth of nutrients.

    Here is an example of a day I had that included bread:
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    bce1bi7wo5zk.png

    if you are going to compare 2 foods nutritional values, they have be done individually. comparing an entire day's meals it not a fair comparison.

    if the op has done research and is interested in keto, but has reservations about it, then the next logical step would be for op to try some variation of it, like liberal or moderate low carb, where she could have some bread. there are many foods i once thought i loved, but now don't miss a bit. cravings are only psychological.

    a lot carbs become fat, the unhealthy type, triglycerides.

    Not only can these diets improve your cholesterol, blood pressure and blood sugar, but they also reduce your appetite, boost weight loss and lower your triglycerides.

    https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/10-benefits-of-low-carb-ketogenic-diets#section6

    Your logic is completely faulty. Food choices are not a this or that proposition. It is the context of an overall diet that determines overall health. Additionally, your comment about a lot of carbs becoming fat is just plain erroneous. First, if eating an energy balanced diet, how would carbs turn to fat.?
    Secondly, de novo lipogenesis, the process by which carbs would convert to fat, is a metabolically expensive and non preferred pathway for fat storage and only happens if there is an excess of carbs and calories. The most likely macro-nutrient to be stored as fat is...fat.

    So, no, a lot of carbs don't become fat. The concepts of logic, context and physiology seem to be foreign to you.

    food comparisons are done individually, and there are far better things than bread, that are more filling.

    you said it, an excess of carbs becomes fats. thank you, doctor.
  • xxxpopeyexxxxxxpopeyexxx Member Posts: 39 Member Member Posts: 39 Member
    however, if the op is considering keto, bread's definitely off limits. and is not even a good choice for a low carb diet, unless eaten only occasionally.

    These sorts of statements are particularly unhelpful because they're not true. OP, if you feel you would benefit from a low carb or ketogenic diet but don't need/want to eliminate favorite foods maybe you don't have to--log them and see.

    I have no problem incorporating higher carb fruits, vegetables, grains and starches into my diet in a satisfying (to me) way. If you're new to eating a low carb/ketogenic diet instead of working from a list of foods you can't have go by what actually fits your carb limit.

    So what if one thing you want is nearly all of your carbs for the day? The carbs in green vegetables are negligible.

    If I wanted bread for lunch (I wouldn't I'd be starving) I'd stick to green vegetables for dinner. A quart of strawberries, a banana or a couple of oranges can fit perfectly fine. If I was having beef and black bean chili for dinner I'd have something lower carb for breakfast. If I'm roasting vegetables I'd use a small potato, some onion and more broccoli. If I was making a flour thickened gravy that would be paired with meat and a green vegetable instead of a starchy one.

    Don't take anyone else's word for what you can and can't eat. Look at the foods you like the most and see if you can't make them work.

    i'd just love to see a keto daily meal plan that incorporates even two slices of bread per day, that is filling, and meets all the rda nutritional needs. and i'm sure the rest of the world would to. please feel free to post it.

    how about a link to the experts that are recommending this to.
    edited March 2020
  • xxxpopeyexxxxxxpopeyexxx Member Posts: 39 Member Member Posts: 39 Member
    lemurcat2 wrote: »
    lemurcat2 wrote: »
    lemurcat2 wrote: »
    Lillymoo01 wrote: »
    probably should go low carb, @100 grams/day, but still lose the bread. it's of limited nutritional value. vegetables are quick and easy. just needs proper dressing and/or seasoning. as are nuts, legumes and dairy.

    Or keep the bread if it is something you enjoy and something you know you will crave if you don't have it. The best way of losing weight is the one that you can adhere to long term, well into maintenance. It isn't just about losing weight but how to keep that weight off indefinitely once you achieve your goal. Don't make changes that you know you won't stick with. This just leads to yoyo dieting for most.

    by that way of thinking, why give up anything you crave if it's going to cause discomfort. and why even make changes to your diet or lifestyle at all.

    there was once a time when i thought there were many foods i couldn't live without, including ice cream, starchy vegetables, pasta, and bread too. that was until i found out i could live without them.

    of course it'll take time to overcome cravings, and instead follow your good sense, and choose nutritionally dense foods. it won't happen overnight. but replacing the junk with nutritionally dense lower carb food should still be a long term goal. and until that time happens portion control should be exercised.

    Exactly, why arbitrarily give up anything you crave if you feel better moderating it? That's how I lost the weight. I didn't give up anything, but I changed how much and/or how often I consume it. Some things felt better to lightly moderate, other things felt better to strictly moderate. If it causes less discomfort than the alternative but the end result is the same, why pick the harder route?

    I mean, yes, anyone can give up anything they choose and get used to that, but the question is: do they need to? Does it make their life easier? Is the change sustainable? Will being exposed to these foods feel harder or easier when they give them up (like in the case of social eating, for example)? All of these questions are worth asking because the best change is the easiest change you can make to achieve your goal and sustain it.

    Giving up bread and starchy carbs, in my case, would interfere with my goal of weight maintenance because they fill me up the most and I'm more likely to feel hungry without them.

    i'm not saying you can't lose weight on other diets, but bread is simply not compatible with the op's keto diet or even low carb diet. it contains too many carbs.

    i started out on a low calorie diet, low fat diet, and did lose weight, but my diet was lacking important nutrients, while consuming to much of the of the not so good nutrients like sodium and sugar, and i also felt like i was half starving myself all the time. once i changed to low carbohydrate and higher fat, i was able to eat a much higher quantity of food, enabling me to obtain high amounts of all the important nutrients, and never feel hungry. i completely lost every trace of my love handles, and have the body type of a fit 19 year old, and a bmi in the 19 range.

    to maintain lean weight in a healthy way, you need to emphasize food quality first of all.

    500 calories from bread and 500 calories from an avocado and a few eggs are entirely different. they have the same amount of energy, but the nutrients found in avocado and eggs far exceed the minuscule amount of nutrients that bread has. on keto, Meat Fish Dairy Eggs Vegetables Fruit (especially avocado, olives, berries) are acceptable.



    To have a healthy diet you need to have a good balance of nutrients. This can be achieved with or without keto. Your experience is important because it's yours. It simply means you do better eating a keto diet. Not everyone shares your experience. I was starving all the time on keto when I tried it.

    You can't really compare individual foods because most people's diets are made up of several foods. The comparison is also highly skewed to show the benefits of a certain eating philosophy. Why aren't you comparing 500 calories of bread (which does have a variety of nutrients) to 500 calories of oil or butter (which have a poor variety of nutrients but are compatible with keto)? Why aren't you comparing 500 calories of beans (which are highly nutritious but not compatible with keto) to 500 calories of bacon grease?

    i never said was on a keto diet. i recommended a low carb diet @100 grams of carbs/day, to the op.

    foods certainly can be compared, and bread ranks poorly in comparison, nutritionally, to most vegetables or other keto diet items.

    This isn't true. Obviously anyone should eat plenty of veg, but I don't think people choose between bread and vegetables. Bread, on keto, would be replaced with higher fat items, some of which are nutritionally dense (avocado, nuts and seeds) but others of which may or may not be filling, depending on the person, but the added fat doesn't add much in the way of nutrients. Examples are cheese, creamy sauces, high fat cuts of meats, so on. Sure, those have some nutrients (as does bread) but you could get the same nutrients in fewer cals with somewhat lower fat choices.

    The reason someone might like to include bread or rice or pasta in their diet is not because they are replacing veg, again, but because they find a meal made up of veg, protein, and a starch one of the most delicious and sating ways to eat, and many of the most healthy diets in the world include plenty of starches, as well as veg and fruit (the latter of which also is pretty difficult to fit in on keto).

    I'm not down on keto and if OP seemed like she really wanted to do it and thought it would work for her, I'd encourage her. I also personally don't care about bread one bit (I do like fruit and other starches). But it's simply not true that keto or other lower carb diets are inherently healthier or better for weight loss than other ways of eating (that may well include bread as well as veg).

    I tried keto as an experiment and used all my carbs for veg plus half an avocado sometimes, a serving of nuts/seeds and occasional full fat plain greek yogurt, and found I was usually having to eat fewer veg than I normally do, fewer nuts and seeds than I normally do (I prefer a couple of servings a day), obviously less fruit, as my only fruit was the half avocado, and I was cutting out other things I think are healthy and satisfying (like beans and lentils, potatoes and sweet potatoes, occasional whole grains) as well as some foods I just like. I also was eating more meat than I normally prefer. So while I absolutely think it can be healthy (or that eating low carb can be healthy), I didn't find that my diet was healthier eating that way and I also did not find it more satisfying.

    i never said a low carb diet is the best diet. what the best diet is could be debated until the end of time. i have just related my own experience, that i can eat more, am never hungry, and have gotten downright lean on a low carb diet. not to mention i'm easily getting all my nutritional needs.

    This is also true for many not on low carb diets. OP may have very sound reasons for wanting to try keto, or she may have just heard it's better for weight loss -- that's why people asked her.
    however, if the op is considering keto, bread's definitely off limits. and is not even a good choice for a low carb diet, unless eaten only occasionally.

    I didn't eat bread when I was doing keto, since I used up all my carbs on foods I personally prioritize more. However, worth noting that there are low carb breads (this new TJ bread is supposed to be tasty), and plenty of people doing keto around here seem to include low carb bread or wraps.

    But in any case absolutely no one has told OP she can do keto without eliminating or restricting bread. They've told her that she can lose weight and eat healthfully while eating bread if she finds the idea of eliminating it unpleasant.

    Not sure what your point re the beef was supposed to be, but as I noted the bread for someone doing keto (as well as the fruit, the beans, the sweet potato, etc.) would not be substituted by beef (assuming the person already ate beef), but by fat -- higher fat cuts of beef (which have no nutritional advantages and might have some negatives if eaten more heavily), cheese, cream sauces, added oils and butter, etc. Not that those things can't be fine in moderation in a healthful diet, but the idea that having more of them and cutting out bread and other starches is inherently healthier is not accurate.

    (I did eat more meat when doing keto, as noted, but the meat replaced vegetarian sources of protein like beans and lentils and plain greek yogurt, as well as the additional smaller sources of some protein I would eat like the additional serving of nuts and seeds, and occasional whole grains, which add up.)

    bread is not compatible with keto, and there are far better choices than bread nutritionally. not sure why that's so hard to understand.

    I don't know why you keep repeating this as if people were arguing that bread fit great on a keto diet.

    However, since you made the claim that bread is impossible on keto, it was worth noting that there obviously are very low net carb and keto breads (or "breads" in some cases). And it's also worth noting that plenty of people doing keto or low carb consume them.
    bread can be replaced by numerous things, vegetables, dairy, nuts, berries, etc.

    A keto and non keto diet would both include vegetables, ideally nuts, maybe dairy. None of these things would be harder to fit in on non keto than keto. In fact, nuts and seeds are harder to fit in on keto since they have carbs (I went from a couple servings a day to one, personally, so as to fit in more veg). Berries can't be eaten in significant amounts since carbs (even the lower net carb ones), and again would ideally be consumed (along with other fruit) on a non keto diet.

    Absolutely no one has suggested eating bread INSTEAD OF vegetables. It's not hard to fit in vegetables while eating bread, including on a low carb diet. Before I experimented with keto I ate around 100-120 g total carbs, and while I rarely ate bread since I am not that into bread, I would regularly eat starches with my dinners. It was not that hard to fit in, and I also ate lots of veg (as I have at every carb level), as well as some fruit.

    However, without knowing more we have zero reason to think that OP needs or would benefit from a low carb diet. My natural tendencies when cutting were more toward lower carb since I tend to enjoy a slightly higher fat diet and find it easy to cut back on portions of many higher carb foods. OP may not find that to be the case for her. It's clearly not for all.

    not sure what the point of all this mumbo jumbo is. of course you can consume more carbs in a low carb diet as opposed to a keto diet. i stated that in my very first post.

    if you read through the thread, there are posts saying keto and bread are compatible.
    edited March 2020
  • xxxpopeyexxxxxxpopeyexxx Member Posts: 39 Member Member Posts: 39 Member
    I honestly don't understand why the disregard for personal desires and enjoyment are so widespread in the weight loss community. Physical nutritional needs are put on a pedestal but mental, social, and emotional needs are regarded as sins as if you aren't dieting correctly unless you care about nothing but nutrition. We're humans, not meat machines, and we have needs that go beyond fuel and nutrients.

    When someone has a car and enjoys listening to music, do we shame them into selling their sound system to put more fuel into an already full tank? Obviously fuel is important, but once that's taken care of, what's wrong with listening to some music? Is adding more fuel to an overflowing tank morally superior?

    I was at a friend's birthday the other day. I enjoyed the social ritual of eating cake together. I needed to socially connect and share an eating ritual of celebration, I didn't need to eat half a cup of spinach. I did the right thing for my body and mind by choosing to eat cake.

    I tend to tank on a long run if I don't get some decent carb energy before the run. White bread, bananas, or honey oatmeal are usually my fuel of choice.

    For breakfast today I had a sandwich. It tasted good and was very filling. It had sourdough rye bread, one of my favorite types of bread. I was happy and satisfied for reasonable calories without feeling like I was making a sacrifice. The rest of my meals had various foods with various nutrients (lots of vegetables, as usual), and I ended the day with a snack pack of Oreos. Bread was the right thing to eat because it fulfilled the purpose of keeping me physically full and mentally satisfied. Oreos were the right thing to eat because I had calories for them and they made me happy. Being happy makes eating a nutritious and calorie appropriate diet sustainable and aids me in my goal of maintaining my weight.

    Different foods serve different main purposes. Nutrition is just one part of the puzzle.

    sounds like a good idea for a popular new diet. the 'if it feels good, do it diet.'

    Yep, that is how I've dropped 108lbs. It's felt great getting more protein, iron, and fiber and at least 50% carbs daily, working in snacks and small desserts, and basically feeling better about myself and my food choices than I have in years of deprivation diets.


    i play sports, and simply have a smoothie in the morning, and am good until the afternoon. don't want a bunch of bulky, partially digested food in my gut before i go play sports.

    the trick to a healthy diet is to learn to enjoy the healthy foods more than the junk foods.

    I walk, strength train, and will be running my 3rd 5K this summer. Hoping to beat last year's time of 27:07 (which was an improvement over my first finish time of 28:17). I love healthy foods. And I love indulgences too. I just indulge in moderation.

    by all means enjoy your indulgences, that doesn't make them a good source of nutrition, or anything more than a psychological need. and it's probably more of a reason you became overweight to begin with.
  • xxxpopeyexxxxxxpopeyexxx Member Posts: 39 Member Member Posts: 39 Member
    TeaBea wrote: »
    mmapags wrote: »
    lemurcat2 wrote: »
    Lillymoo01 wrote: »
    probably should go low carb, @100 grams/day, but still lose the bread. it's of limited nutritional value. vegetables are quick and easy. just needs proper dressing and/or seasoning. as are nuts, legumes and dairy.

    Or keep the bread if it is something you enjoy and something you know you will crave if you don't have it. The best way of losing weight is the one that you can adhere to long term, well into maintenance. It isn't just about losing weight but how to keep that weight off indefinitely once you achieve your goal. Don't make changes that you know you won't stick with. This just leads to yoyo dieting for most.

    by that way of thinking, why give up anything you crave if it's going to cause discomfort. and why even make changes to your diet or lifestyle at all.

    there was once a time when i thought there were many foods i couldn't live without, including ice cream, starchy vegetables, pasta, and bread too. that was until i found out i could live without them.

    of course it'll take time to overcome cravings, and instead follow your good sense, and choose nutritionally dense foods. it won't happen overnight. but replacing the junk with nutritionally dense lower carb food should still be a long term goal. and until that time happens portion control should be exercised.

    Exactly, why arbitrarily give up anything you crave if you feel better moderating it? That's how I lost the weight. I didn't give up anything, but I changed how much and/or how often I consume it. Some things felt better to lightly moderate, other things felt better to strictly moderate. If it causes less discomfort than the alternative but the end result is the same, why pick the harder route?

    I mean, yes, anyone can give up anything they choose and get used to that, but the question is: do they need to? Does it make their life easier? Is the change sustainable? Will being exposed to these foods feel harder or easier when they give them up (like in the case of social eating, for example)? All of these questions are worth asking because the best change is the easiest change you can make to achieve your goal and sustain it.

    Giving up bread and starchy carbs, in my case, would interfere with my goal of weight maintenance because they fill me up the most and I'm more likely to feel hungry without them.

    i'm not saying you can't lose weight on other diets, but bread is simply not compatible with the op's keto diet or even low carb diet. it contains too many carbs.

    i started out on a low calorie diet, low fat diet, and did lose weight, but my diet was lacking important nutrients, while consuming to much of the of the not so good nutrients like sodium and sugar, and i also felt like i was half starving myself all the time. once i changed to low carbohydrate and higher fat, i was able to eat a much higher quantity of food, enabling me to obtain high amounts of all the important nutrients, and never feel hungry. i completely lost every trace of my love handles, and have the body type of a fit 19 year old, and a bmi in the 19 range.

    to maintain lean weight in a healthy way, you need to emphasize food quality first of all.

    500 calories from bread and 500 calories from an avocado and a few eggs are entirely different. they have the same amount of energy, but the nutrients found in avocado and eggs far exceed the minuscule amount of nutrients that bread has. on keto, Meat Fish Dairy Eggs Vegetables Fruit (especially avocado, olives, berries) are acceptable.



    To have a healthy diet you need to have a good balance of nutrients. This can be achieved with or without keto. Your experience is important because it's yours. It simply means you do better eating a keto diet. Not everyone shares your experience. I was starving all the time on keto when I tried it.

    You can't really compare individual foods because most people's diets are made up of several foods. The comparison is also highly skewed to show the benefits of a certain eating philosophy. Why aren't you comparing 500 calories of bread (which does have a variety of nutrients) to 500 calories of oil or butter (which have a poor variety of nutrients but are compatible with keto)? Why aren't you comparing 500 calories of beans (which are highly nutritious but not compatible with keto) to 500 calories of bacon grease?

    i never said was on a keto diet. i recommended a low carb diet @100 grams of carbs/day, to the op.

    foods certainly can be compared, and bread ranks poorly in comparison, nutritionally, to most vegetables or other keto diet items.

    This isn't true. Obviously anyone should eat plenty of veg, but I don't think people choose between bread and vegetables. Bread, on keto, would be replaced with higher fat items, some of which are nutritionally dense (avocado, nuts and seeds) but others of which may or may not be filling, depending on the person, but the added fat doesn't add much in the way of nutrients. Examples are cheese, creamy sauces, high fat cuts of meats, so on. Sure, those have some nutrients (as does bread) but you could get the same nutrients in fewer cals with somewhat lower fat choices.

    The reason someone might like to include bread or rice or pasta in their diet is not because they are replacing veg, again, but because they find a meal made up of veg, protein, and a starch one of the most delicious and sating ways to eat, and many of the most healthy diets in the world include plenty of starches, as well as veg and fruit (the latter of which also is pretty difficult to fit in on keto).

    I'm not down on keto and if OP seemed like she really wanted to do it and thought it would work for her, I'd encourage her. I also personally don't care about bread one bit (I do like fruit and other starches). But it's simply not true that keto or other lower carb diets are inherently healthier or better for weight loss than other ways of eating (that may well include bread as well as veg).

    I tried keto as an experiment and used all my carbs for veg plus half an avocado sometimes, a serving of nuts/seeds and occasional full fat plain greek yogurt, and found I was usually having to eat fewer veg than I normally do, fewer nuts and seeds than I normally do (I prefer a couple of servings a day), obviously less fruit, as my only fruit was the half avocado, and I was cutting out other things I think are healthy and satisfying (like beans and lentils, potatoes and sweet potatoes, occasional whole grains) as well as some foods I just like. I also was eating more meat than I normally prefer. So while I absolutely think it can be healthy (or that eating low carb can be healthy), I didn't find that my diet was healthier eating that way and I also did not find it more satisfying.

    i never said a low carb diet is the best diet. what the best diet is could be debated until the end of time. i have just related my own experience, that i can eat more, am never hungry, and have gotten downright lean on a low carb diet. not to mention i'm easily getting all my nutritional needs.

    however, if the op is considering keto, bread's definitely off limits. and is not even a good choice for a low carb diet, unless eaten only occasionally.

    i'm am a vegetarian but a 3.5 oz serving of beef:

    Calories: 205
    Protein: About 27 grams
    Riboflavin: 15% of the Daily Value (DV)
    Niacin: 24% of the DV
    Vitamin B6: 19% of the DV
    Vitamin B12: 158% of the DV
    Niacin: 24% of the DV
    Phosphorus: 19% of the DV
    Zinc: 68% of the DV
    Selenium: 36% of the DV

    now compare that to a serving of bread.

    She is considering keto because she thinks it's the best choice but feels she won't be able to do it. She would have gotten very different answers had she not expressed distress over having to do keto.

    Comparing single food nutrients means little on its own. You need to consider an entire day's worth of nutrients.

    Here is an example of a day I had that included bread:
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    if you are going to compare 2 foods nutritional values, they have be done individually. comparing an entire day's meals it not a fair comparison.

    if the op has done research and is interested in keto, but has reservations about it, then the next logical step would be for op to try some variation of it, like liberal or moderate low carb, where she could have some bread. there are many foods i once thought i loved, but now don't miss a bit. cravings are only psychological.

    a lot carbs become fat, the unhealthy type, triglycerides.

    Not only can these diets improve your cholesterol, blood pressure and blood sugar, but they also reduce your appetite, boost weight loss and lower your triglycerides.

    https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/10-benefits-of-low-carb-ketogenic-diets#section6

    Your logic is completely faulty. Food choices are not a this or that proposition. It is the context of an overall diet that determines overall health. Additionally, your comment about a lot of carbs becoming fat is just plain erroneous. First, if eating an energy balanced diet, how would carbs turn to fat.?
    Secondly, de novo lipogenesis, the process by which carbs would convert to fat, is a metabolically expensive and non preferred pathway for fat storage and only happens if there is an excess of carbs and calories. The most likely macro-nutrient to be stored as fat is...fat.

    So, no, a lot of carbs don't become fat. The concepts of logic, context and physiology seem to be foreign to you.

    food comparisons are done individually, and there are far better things than bread, that are more filling.

    you said it, an excess of carbs becomes fats. thank you, doctor.
    You seemed to gloss over the AND CALORIES part.

    Worded another way......an excess of fats and calories are stored as fat, OR an excess of proteins and calories are stored as fat too. Any way you slice it ;) fat stores require excess calories.

    and some fats store better than others. high carb diets are associated with high levels of triglycerides, and build up of plaque in arteries.

    carbs are also addictive. we are now in the midst of the biggest obesity and diabetes epidemic in the history of the human race, thanks to the shift to high consumption of carbohydrates in diets. the obesity rate in adults is @40% by some estimates.

    decreasing carbs lowers insulin levels, which causes the body to burn stored fat for energy and which leads to weight loss.
  • xxxpopeyexxxxxxpopeyexxx Member Posts: 39 Member Member Posts: 39 Member
    I might be mistaken, but @xxxpopeyexxx I believe everyone is simply trying to say that you do not NEED keto/deprivation to lose weight. There are many different ways to lose weight, but as stated early on, it all comes down to a matter of calories in, calories out and one does NOT necessarily need a perfect nutritional balance just to lose weight (that is, you can drop massive weight on a calorie restrictive diet of ice cream; your general well-being is another topic). Your posts come off with a tone of, "it can only be done the way that worked for me." You may not like bread or find it to be a valuable nutritional resource and that is fine, but it is wholly irresponsible for you to promote the message of you cannot do keto or lose weight if you eat bread because it is simply untrue. Someone might lurk in this thread, adore bread, and say "forget dieting" under the assumption that they MUST give up bread to lose weight. & It is also a matter of fact that you can, and people do, successfully keto diet while incorporating bread into their diet.

    There are many different ways to lose weight

    and i never said otherwise. i simply said there are far more nutritious choices than bread, and it's not compatible with a keto diet. i'll stand by that.
    edited March 2020
  • xxxpopeyexxxxxxpopeyexxx Member Posts: 39 Member Member Posts: 39 Member
    I honestly don't understand why the disregard for personal desires and enjoyment are so widespread in the weight loss community. Physical nutritional needs are put on a pedestal but mental, social, and emotional needs are regarded as sins as if you aren't dieting correctly unless you care about nothing but nutrition. We're humans, not meat machines, and we have needs that go beyond fuel and nutrients.

    When someone has a car and enjoys listening to music, do we shame them into selling their sound system to put more fuel into an already full tank? Obviously fuel is important, but once that's taken care of, what's wrong with listening to some music? Is adding more fuel to an overflowing tank morally superior?

    I was at a friend's birthday the other day. I enjoyed the social ritual of eating cake together. I needed to socially connect and share an eating ritual of celebration, I didn't need to eat half a cup of spinach. I did the right thing for my body and mind by choosing to eat cake.

    I tend to tank on a long run if I don't get some decent carb energy before the run. White bread, bananas, or honey oatmeal are usually my fuel of choice.

    For breakfast today I had a sandwich. It tasted good and was very filling. It had sourdough rye bread, one of my favorite types of bread. I was happy and satisfied for reasonable calories without feeling like I was making a sacrifice. The rest of my meals had various foods with various nutrients (lots of vegetables, as usual), and I ended the day with a snack pack of Oreos. Bread was the right thing to eat because it fulfilled the purpose of keeping me physically full and mentally satisfied. Oreos were the right thing to eat because I had calories for them and they made me happy. Being happy makes eating a nutritious and calorie appropriate diet sustainable and aids me in my goal of maintaining my weight.

    Different foods serve different main purposes. Nutrition is just one part of the puzzle.

    sounds like a good idea for a popular new diet. the 'if it feels good, do it diet.'

    Yep, that is how I've dropped 108lbs. It's felt great getting more protein, iron, and fiber and at least 50% carbs daily, working in snacks and small desserts, and basically feeling better about myself and my food choices than I have in years of deprivation diets.


    i play sports, and simply have a smoothie in the morning, and am good until the afternoon. don't want a bunch of bulky, partially digested food in my gut before i go play sports.

    the trick to a healthy diet is to learn to enjoy the healthy foods more than the junk foods.

    I walk, strength train, and will be running my 3rd 5K this summer. Hoping to beat last year's time of 27:07 (which was an improvement over my first finish time of 28:17). I love healthy foods. And I love indulgences too. I just indulge in moderation.

    by all means enjoy your indulgences, that doesn't make them a good source of nutrition, or anything more than a psychological need. and it's probably more of a reason you became overweight to begin with.

    Mostly it was emotional eating, stress eating, being an introvert who found out early that you weren't expected to make conversation if you were stuffing your face (which ties in with the stress eating), and getting locked into a whole 'eat-feel guilty-eat more to numb the guilt-feel guiltier-eat more' down spiral. Once I gave myself permission to enjoy a controlled indulgence, I lost the sides of guilt and self-loathing that had always been included free of charge with each extra helping, etc.

    And what exactly is wrong with meeting a psychological need? Is mental health somehow less worthy of attention than physical?

    if you can keep to a limited amount, fine, there are probably bigger things in life to worry about, but i'm not seeing how satisfying a craving of processed sugar, is healthy mentally or physically. why not break the addiction and find and/or learn to indulge in healthy foods?
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