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  • earlnabbyearlnabby Member Posts: 8,057 Member Member Posts: 8,057 Member
    AnnPT77 wrote: »
    earlnabby wrote: »


    butter contains important nutrients and has health benefits when consumed in moderation, does processed sugar?

    I have been wondering if you are a troll. Now I am convinced because nobody could seriously make that statement with a straight face.

    27d5a717-a129-4b22-98ca-d4bc01240ef9_1.761e0af7d1cfee30d792bbdae9148b5c.jpeg






    Observation: Standard butter does have a ridiculously small amount (for the calories) of some micros (per tablespoon of butter 3.4 mg potassium, 0.3% calcium, 7.1% vitamin A, etc.) according to the USDA legacy data. Protein can be non-zero, but below the reportable threshold (USDA legacy lists 0.1g/tablespoon).

    Not a nutrient-dense food, not at all. Calorie-dense. Tasty, to some.

    Your overall point clearly holds, I'm just throwing this in to head off arm-waving about micros. I'm for "team accuracy" and "team keep-facts-in-context", as I believe you are. ;)

    Yup, we are definitely on the same page although I take issue with your "Tasty, to some" How can that pat of golden deliciousness not be tasty to everyone?????? Then again, I come from a state where restaurants, BY LAW, have to serve butter but can serve margarine by request. Until the mid-60's it was illegal to sell colored margarine here too. Mom would get this bag of white stuff and pop a dye button and knead the color into it. She only did this for some of the Christmas baking. We used butter for everything else.
  • estherdragonbatestherdragonbat Member Posts: 5,285 Member Member Posts: 5,285 Member
    earlnabby wrote: »
    AnnPT77 wrote: »
    earlnabby wrote: »


    butter contains important nutrients and has health benefits when consumed in moderation, does processed sugar?

    I have been wondering if you are a troll. Now I am convinced because nobody could seriously make that statement with a straight face.

    27d5a717-a129-4b22-98ca-d4bc01240ef9_1.761e0af7d1cfee30d792bbdae9148b5c.jpeg






    Observation: Standard butter does have a ridiculously small amount (for the calories) of some micros (per tablespoon of butter 3.4 mg potassium, 0.3% calcium, 7.1% vitamin A, etc.) according to the USDA legacy data. Protein can be non-zero, but below the reportable threshold (USDA legacy lists 0.1g/tablespoon).

    Not a nutrient-dense food, not at all. Calorie-dense. Tasty, to some.

    Your overall point clearly holds, I'm just throwing this in to head off arm-waving about micros. I'm for "team accuracy" and "team keep-facts-in-context", as I believe you are. ;)

    Yup, we are definitely on the same page although I take issue with your "Tasty, to some" How can that pat of golden deliciousness not be tasty to everyone?????? Then again, I come from a state where restaurants, BY LAW, have to serve butter but can serve margarine by request. Until the mid-60's it was illegal to sell colored margarine here too. Mom would get this bag of white stuff and pop a dye button and knead the color into it. She only did this for some of the Christmas baking. We used butter for everything else.

    Growing up strictly kosher, there are laws about mixing meat and dairy (specifically, 'Don't do it'. This extends to having separate dishes, pots, pans and utensils for meat and dairy, not serving a meat dish on the same plate with a dairy dish, cooking dairy in a meat pot, etc.) So I grew up with butter for dairy, margarine for meat, and also margarine/oil in a lot of baking because we tended to only have dessert for Sabbath—which involved meat meals.

    I'm vegetarian, married to a meat eater, with a relatively small kitchen. I just... don't do dairy much when it comes to cooking. I have Greek yogurt in the morning in a paper bowl with a plastic spoon. I have a toaster oven if I want to heat up a slice of pizza. But otherwise, it's all meat and pareve (neutral; contains neither meat nor dairy). So, yeah, I make a point of buying transfat-free margarine, but I pretty much use that or oil in cooking and baking.
  • AnnPT77AnnPT77 Member, Premium Posts: 20,857 Member Member, Premium Posts: 20,857 Member
    earlnabby wrote: »
    AnnPT77 wrote: »
    earlnabby wrote: »


    butter contains important nutrients and has health benefits when consumed in moderation, does processed sugar?

    I have been wondering if you are a troll. Now I am convinced because nobody could seriously make that statement with a straight face.

    27d5a717-a129-4b22-98ca-d4bc01240ef9_1.761e0af7d1cfee30d792bbdae9148b5c.jpeg






    Observation: Standard butter does have a ridiculously small amount (for the calories) of some micros (per tablespoon of butter 3.4 mg potassium, 0.3% calcium, 7.1% vitamin A, etc.) according to the USDA legacy data. Protein can be non-zero, but below the reportable threshold (USDA legacy lists 0.1g/tablespoon).

    Not a nutrient-dense food, not at all. Calorie-dense. Tasty, to some.

    Your overall point clearly holds, I'm just throwing this in to head off arm-waving about micros. I'm for "team accuracy" and "team keep-facts-in-context", as I believe you are. ;)

    Yup, we are definitely on the same page although I take issue with your "Tasty, to some" How can that pat of golden deliciousness not be tasty to everyone?????? Then again, I come from a state where restaurants, BY LAW, have to serve butter but can serve margarine by request. Until the mid-60's it was illegal to sell colored margarine here too. Mom would get this bag of white stuff and pop a dye button and knead the color into it. She only did this for some of the Christmas baking. We used butter for everything else.

    Mostly, just rhetorically cautious. For anything, there's someone who doesn't like it.

    For me, when I was a tiny child, my favorite aunt, a farmer, let me eat all the the homemade butter I wanted, with a spoon, in one sitting. I couldn't eat it again for many years. But I've since recovered. ;)
  • Lillymoo01Lillymoo01 Member Posts: 2,868 Member Member Posts: 2,868 Member
    earlnabby wrote: »


    butter contains important nutrients and has health benefits when consumed in moderation, does processed sugar?

    I have been wondering if you are a troll. Now I am convinced because nobody could seriously make that statement with a straight face.

    27d5a717-a129-4b22-98ca-d4bc01240ef9_1.761e0af7d1cfee30d792bbdae9148b5c.jpeg






    What I really want to highlight is that most people that crave bread hanker from some of this butter placed on it. Much more crave-worthy when the bread is still warm and the butter melts into it!
  • cwolfman13cwolfman13 Member Posts: 39,404 Member Member Posts: 39,404 Member
    TeaBea wrote: »
    mmapags wrote: »
    lemurcat2 wrote: »
    Lillymoo01 wrote: »
    probably should go low carb, @100 grams/day, but still lose the bread. it's of limited nutritional value. vegetables are quick and easy. just needs proper dressing and/or seasoning. as are nuts, legumes and dairy.

    Or keep the bread if it is something you enjoy and something you know you will crave if you don't have it. The best way of losing weight is the one that you can adhere to long term, well into maintenance. It isn't just about losing weight but how to keep that weight off indefinitely once you achieve your goal. Don't make changes that you know you won't stick with. This just leads to yoyo dieting for most.

    by that way of thinking, why give up anything you crave if it's going to cause discomfort. and why even make changes to your diet or lifestyle at all.

    there was once a time when i thought there were many foods i couldn't live without, including ice cream, starchy vegetables, pasta, and bread too. that was until i found out i could live without them.

    of course it'll take time to overcome cravings, and instead follow your good sense, and choose nutritionally dense foods. it won't happen overnight. but replacing the junk with nutritionally dense lower carb food should still be a long term goal. and until that time happens portion control should be exercised.

    Exactly, why arbitrarily give up anything you crave if you feel better moderating it? That's how I lost the weight. I didn't give up anything, but I changed how much and/or how often I consume it. Some things felt better to lightly moderate, other things felt better to strictly moderate. If it causes less discomfort than the alternative but the end result is the same, why pick the harder route?

    I mean, yes, anyone can give up anything they choose and get used to that, but the question is: do they need to? Does it make their life easier? Is the change sustainable? Will being exposed to these foods feel harder or easier when they give them up (like in the case of social eating, for example)? All of these questions are worth asking because the best change is the easiest change you can make to achieve your goal and sustain it.

    Giving up bread and starchy carbs, in my case, would interfere with my goal of weight maintenance because they fill me up the most and I'm more likely to feel hungry without them.

    i'm not saying you can't lose weight on other diets, but bread is simply not compatible with the op's keto diet or even low carb diet. it contains too many carbs.

    i started out on a low calorie diet, low fat diet, and did lose weight, but my diet was lacking important nutrients, while consuming to much of the of the not so good nutrients like sodium and sugar, and i also felt like i was half starving myself all the time. once i changed to low carbohydrate and higher fat, i was able to eat a much higher quantity of food, enabling me to obtain high amounts of all the important nutrients, and never feel hungry. i completely lost every trace of my love handles, and have the body type of a fit 19 year old, and a bmi in the 19 range.

    to maintain lean weight in a healthy way, you need to emphasize food quality first of all.

    500 calories from bread and 500 calories from an avocado and a few eggs are entirely different. they have the same amount of energy, but the nutrients found in avocado and eggs far exceed the minuscule amount of nutrients that bread has. on keto, Meat Fish Dairy Eggs Vegetables Fruit (especially avocado, olives, berries) are acceptable.



    To have a healthy diet you need to have a good balance of nutrients. This can be achieved with or without keto. Your experience is important because it's yours. It simply means you do better eating a keto diet. Not everyone shares your experience. I was starving all the time on keto when I tried it.

    You can't really compare individual foods because most people's diets are made up of several foods. The comparison is also highly skewed to show the benefits of a certain eating philosophy. Why aren't you comparing 500 calories of bread (which does have a variety of nutrients) to 500 calories of oil or butter (which have a poor variety of nutrients but are compatible with keto)? Why aren't you comparing 500 calories of beans (which are highly nutritious but not compatible with keto) to 500 calories of bacon grease?

    i never said was on a keto diet. i recommended a low carb diet @100 grams of carbs/day, to the op.

    foods certainly can be compared, and bread ranks poorly in comparison, nutritionally, to most vegetables or other keto diet items.

    This isn't true. Obviously anyone should eat plenty of veg, but I don't think people choose between bread and vegetables. Bread, on keto, would be replaced with higher fat items, some of which are nutritionally dense (avocado, nuts and seeds) but others of which may or may not be filling, depending on the person, but the added fat doesn't add much in the way of nutrients. Examples are cheese, creamy sauces, high fat cuts of meats, so on. Sure, those have some nutrients (as does bread) but you could get the same nutrients in fewer cals with somewhat lower fat choices.

    The reason someone might like to include bread or rice or pasta in their diet is not because they are replacing veg, again, but because they find a meal made up of veg, protein, and a starch one of the most delicious and sating ways to eat, and many of the most healthy diets in the world include plenty of starches, as well as veg and fruit (the latter of which also is pretty difficult to fit in on keto).

    I'm not down on keto and if OP seemed like she really wanted to do it and thought it would work for her, I'd encourage her. I also personally don't care about bread one bit (I do like fruit and other starches). But it's simply not true that keto or other lower carb diets are inherently healthier or better for weight loss than other ways of eating (that may well include bread as well as veg).

    I tried keto as an experiment and used all my carbs for veg plus half an avocado sometimes, a serving of nuts/seeds and occasional full fat plain greek yogurt, and found I was usually having to eat fewer veg than I normally do, fewer nuts and seeds than I normally do (I prefer a couple of servings a day), obviously less fruit, as my only fruit was the half avocado, and I was cutting out other things I think are healthy and satisfying (like beans and lentils, potatoes and sweet potatoes, occasional whole grains) as well as some foods I just like. I also was eating more meat than I normally prefer. So while I absolutely think it can be healthy (or that eating low carb can be healthy), I didn't find that my diet was healthier eating that way and I also did not find it more satisfying.

    i never said a low carb diet is the best diet. what the best diet is could be debated until the end of time. i have just related my own experience, that i can eat more, am never hungry, and have gotten downright lean on a low carb diet. not to mention i'm easily getting all my nutritional needs.

    however, if the op is considering keto, bread's definitely off limits. and is not even a good choice for a low carb diet, unless eaten only occasionally.

    i'm am a vegetarian but a 3.5 oz serving of beef:

    Calories: 205
    Protein: About 27 grams
    Riboflavin: 15% of the Daily Value (DV)
    Niacin: 24% of the DV
    Vitamin B6: 19% of the DV
    Vitamin B12: 158% of the DV
    Niacin: 24% of the DV
    Phosphorus: 19% of the DV
    Zinc: 68% of the DV
    Selenium: 36% of the DV

    now compare that to a serving of bread.

    She is considering keto because she thinks it's the best choice but feels she won't be able to do it. She would have gotten very different answers had she not expressed distress over having to do keto.

    Comparing single food nutrients means little on its own. You need to consider an entire day's worth of nutrients.

    Here is an example of a day I had that included bread:
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    if you are going to compare 2 foods nutritional values, they have be done individually. comparing an entire day's meals it not a fair comparison.

    if the op has done research and is interested in keto, but has reservations about it, then the next logical step would be for op to try some variation of it, like liberal or moderate low carb, where she could have some bread. there are many foods i once thought i loved, but now don't miss a bit. cravings are only psychological.

    a lot carbs become fat, the unhealthy type, triglycerides.

    Not only can these diets improve your cholesterol, blood pressure and blood sugar, but they also reduce your appetite, boost weight loss and lower your triglycerides.

    https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/10-benefits-of-low-carb-ketogenic-diets#section6

    Your logic is completely faulty. Food choices are not a this or that proposition. It is the context of an overall diet that determines overall health. Additionally, your comment about a lot of carbs becoming fat is just plain erroneous. First, if eating an energy balanced diet, how would carbs turn to fat.?
    Secondly, de novo lipogenesis, the process by which carbs would convert to fat, is a metabolically expensive and non preferred pathway for fat storage and only happens if there is an excess of carbs and calories. The most likely macro-nutrient to be stored as fat is...fat.

    So, no, a lot of carbs don't become fat. The concepts of logic, context and physiology seem to be foreign to you.

    food comparisons are done individually, and there are far better things than bread, that are more filling.

    you said it, an excess of carbs becomes fats. thank you, doctor.
    You seemed to gloss over the AND CALORIES part.

    Worded another way......an excess of fats and calories are stored as fat, OR an excess of proteins and calories are stored as fat too. Any way you slice it ;) fat stores require excess calories.

    and some fats store better than others. high carb diets are associated with high levels of triglycerides, and build up of plaque in arteries.

    carbs are also addictive. we are now in the midst of the biggest obesity and diabetes epidemic in the history of the human race, thanks to the shift to high consumption of carbohydrates in diets. the obesity rate in adults is @40% by some estimates.

    decreasing carbs lowers insulin levels, which causes the body to burn stored fat for energy and which leads to weight loss.

    Have you ever heard of Blue Zones? These would be some of the healthiest populations in the world and they have diets very high in carbohydrates.

    ETA: in regards to bread not having much nutritional value...I guess that would depend on the bread. I use Dave's Killer Bread 21 Whole Grains and Seeds for my sandwiches.

    - 5g protein
    - 5g fiber
    - 22g whole grains
    - 260mg Omega 3
    - 180mg sodium
    - 5g sugar
    edited March 2020
  • mph323mph323 Member Posts: 3,487 Member Member Posts: 3,487 Member
    Oh I could eat (salted) butter from a tub if I let myself :D I have celiac disease and gluten free bread disintegrates when it gets wet so I let it get cool and then butter it so it doesn't melt.

    I lost 50 pounds in my mid sixties and have maintained the loss since then. When I was overweight (pushing obese) my labs were bad, my doctor wanted to put me on statins and blood pressure meds. I was also prediabetic. I ate plenty of carbs and processed food. Now my numbers are all within normal range. I still eat processed food and plenty of carbs while weight training, running, hiking and doing 100 mile cycling events. I'm the healthiest I've been in 25 years.
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