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To Keto or Not To Keto?
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Has anyone used keto diet for bi-polar disorder or depression?0
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svsiemers2018 wrote: »Has anyone used keto diet for bi-polar disorder or depression?
There is some science but not a lot that supports the assertion that a ketogenic diets help and I suspect there will be more studies going forward. Keto diets are also very hard to adhere to when starting out which is mostly to do with electrolyte balance which could actually result in exacerbating depression.
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Sinisterbarbie1 wrote: »Hi - I’ve been reading this thread the last couple of days because I have known a lot of people who have been super successful with keto and I was therefore always tempted to try it, but didn’t, because while I understood the appeal for them and the ease of the concept for someone who likes to eat protein heavy, possibly fat heavier foods than many people would consume regularly when cutting calories, and theoretically not have to keep track, the eating style never appealed to me (certainly not long term) because I love fruits and vegetables. In my very limited and unscientific personal observation, the people who were most successful were not the people who were eating bunless cheesburgers twice a day and cheese taco shells stuffed with eggs and cheese for breakfast, but people who were eating leaner proteins, and actually eating some green things mixed in with those. When I look at my own eating habits honed through what keeps me happy with CICO I too eat primarily a mix of lean proteins and lots of green veggies (and fruit) although probably relying more on plant based proteins or dairy to get the protein I need. This is not to say I eat a keto diet. I am just pointing out that people tend to argue/make assumptions from the extremes, (you are posting on the debate club, after all so I would expect no less) and in reality if you look below the surface there are a lot of commonalities in what works, which the posters on this thread keep pointing out, whether they mean to or not. its just outside packaging and degrees that differs or allow us to differentiate ourselves or affiliate ourselves with one tribe or another.
I’ve learned a lot from the thread precisely because I don’t have any particular view on keto and I don’t feel terribly passionate about CICO either (I didn’t actually know what the label meant before joining MFP a few months ago and by then I had already lost 40+ pounds doing it without anyone giving me any rules or books or team CICO swag
). Really interesting!
Just curious, are these people you know in real life and see in person from time to time? I have a few friends who post enthusiastically on FB about keto...until they don't, and when I see them in person I note they've gained weight back. Then they start posting enthusiastically about keto again, and the cycle continues.
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neanderthin wrote: »svsiemers2018 wrote: »Has anyone used keto diet for bi-polar disorder or depression?
There is some science but not a lot that supports the assertion that a ketogenic diets help and I suspect there will be more studies going forward. Keto diets are also very hard to adhere to when starting out which is mostly to do with electrolyte balance which could actually result in exacerbating depression.
I can say from personal experience that my bi-polar depression is non-existent when I stay in ketosis. But you are right, it is tough to stay there. However, it is also very nice to wake up in the morning and not have your first thought be "Why am I still alive?" When I wake up and think yet again about suicide, then I remember what I ate (potato chips are my downfall), swear I will never do it again because no potato chip is worth feeling the way I do the next morning. Wish I could find a bi-polar keto buddy to have on my speed dial. Sigh . . .
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I tried keto… I wouldn’t swear by it but I do well with low-carb, personally. Calories in, calories out matter more than any fad diet imo.0
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I can say from personal experience that my bi-polar depression is non-existent when I stay in ketosis. But you are right, it is tough to stay there. However, it is also very nice to wake up in the morning and not have your first thought be "Why am I still alive?" When I wake up and think yet again about suicide, then I remember what I ate (potato chips are my downfall), swear I will never do it again because no potato chip is worth feeling the way I do the next morning. Wish I could find a bi-polar keto buddy to have on my speed dial. Sigh . . .
Maybe try carnivore for 30 days and see how you feel. There not much science yet on carnivore but I suspect with the amount of anecdotally positive feedback and the one study from Harvard seems to back that up. Basically it's the ultimate elimination diet. I would talk to your Dr. first though.1 -
kshama2001 wrote: »Sinisterbarbie1 wrote: »Hi - I’ve been reading this thread the last couple of days because I have known a lot of people who have been super successful with keto and I was therefore always tempted to try it, but didn’t, because while I understood the appeal for them and the ease of the concept for someone who likes to eat protein heavy, possibly fat heavier foods than many people would consume regularly when cutting calories, and theoretically not have to keep track, the eating style never appealed to me (certainly not long term) because I love fruits and vegetables. In my very limited and unscientific personal observation, the people who were most successful were not the people who were eating bunless cheesburgers twice a day and cheese taco shells stuffed with eggs and cheese for breakfast, but people who were eating leaner proteins, and actually eating some green things mixed in with those. When I look at my own eating habits honed through what keeps me happy with CICO I too eat primarily a mix of lean proteins and lots of green veggies (and fruit) although probably relying more on plant based proteins or dairy to get the protein I need. This is not to say I eat a keto diet. I am just pointing out that people tend to argue/make assumptions from the extremes, (you are posting on the debate club, after all so I would expect no less) and in reality if you look below the surface there are a lot of commonalities in what works, which the posters on this thread keep pointing out, whether they mean to or not. its just outside packaging and degrees that differs or allow us to differentiate ourselves or affiliate ourselves with one tribe or another.
I’ve learned a lot from the thread precisely because I don’t have any particular view on keto and I don’t feel terribly passionate about CICO either (I didn’t actually know what the label meant before joining MFP a few months ago and by then I had already lost 40+ pounds doing it without anyone giving me any rules or books or team CICO swag ). Really interesting!
Just curious, are these people you know in real life and see in person from time to time? I have a few friends who post enthusiastically on FB about keto...until they don't, and when I see them in person I note they've gained weight back. Then they start posting enthusiastically about keto again, and the cycle continues.
100% yes. It just doesn't seem sustainable to me. I said it previously, I've never actually met someone in person who has done Keto and kept it off. And I work in an office with ALOT of younger/middle aged women. Haven't met any men who've tried it oddly enough.0 -
kshama2001 wrote: »Sinisterbarbie1 wrote: »Hi - I’ve been reading this thread the last couple of days because I have known a lot of people who have been super successful with keto and I was therefore always tempted to try it, but didn’t, because while I understood the appeal for them and the ease of the concept for someone who likes to eat protein heavy, possibly fat heavier foods than many people would consume regularly when cutting calories, and theoretically not have to keep track, the eating style never appealed to me (certainly not long term) because I love fruits and vegetables. In my very limited and unscientific personal observation, the people who were most successful were not the people who were eating bunless cheesburgers twice a day and cheese taco shells stuffed with eggs and cheese for breakfast, but people who were eating leaner proteins, and actually eating some green things mixed in with those. When I look at my own eating habits honed through what keeps me happy with CICO I too eat primarily a mix of lean proteins and lots of green veggies (and fruit) although probably relying more on plant based proteins or dairy to get the protein I need. This is not to say I eat a keto diet. I am just pointing out that people tend to argue/make assumptions from the extremes, (you are posting on the debate club, after all so I would expect no less) and in reality if you look below the surface there are a lot of commonalities in what works, which the posters on this thread keep pointing out, whether they mean to or not. its just outside packaging and degrees that differs or allow us to differentiate ourselves or affiliate ourselves with one tribe or another.
I’ve learned a lot from the thread precisely because I don’t have any particular view on keto and I don’t feel terribly passionate about CICO either (I didn’t actually know what the label meant before joining MFP a few months ago and by then I had already lost 40+ pounds doing it without anyone giving me any rules or books or team CICO swag ). Really interesting!
Just curious, are these people you know in real life and see in person from time to time? I have a few friends who post enthusiastically on FB about keto...until they don't, and when I see them in person I note they've gained weight back. Then they start posting enthusiastically about keto again, and the cycle continues.
100% yes. It just doesn't seem sustainable to me. I said it previously, I've never actually met someone in person who has done Keto and kept it off. And I work in an office with ALOT of younger/middle aged women. Haven't met any men who've tried it oddly enough.
Pretty much all diets have notoriously very poor success rates with most failing in the 90% range and that includes calorie counting. A lifestyle change with supportive behavioral modifications is pretty much the only way to increase the odds. Anecdotally I've been low carb with periods of ketosis for over 20 years with success, so it can be done but I find people generally like eating the foods they do so much they apparently will accept the consequences, or at least it appears that way, or is it more complicated than that.2 -
Very true!1
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@kshama2001 sorry I wasn’t paying attention to the thread so didn’t notice your question until just now, but I have to tell you that I just saw one of the people I was referring to in my post a few weeks ago after not having seen him in person since before COVID. We used to see each other all the time at conferences. He has put on about 40 pounds during the pandemic. I would say that isn’t a fair time to judge, except I lost more than 70 lbs in the same time frame.0
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I’ve done a lot of research on the keto diet & know several people who have had great success with it; however, they’ve all gained the weight back that they lost!
Unless you’re willing to eat the keto lifestyle forever, then you will regain the weight as you start increasing your carb intake & because of fluid retention.
I never support a diet that gives up any food groups because it’s absolutely not necessary! Why live in misery by not eating carbs? You can easily lose weight while eating cake, ice cream, pizza, & all the yummy things.3 -
the_real_me_lissa wrote: »I’ve done a lot of research on the keto diet & know several people who have had great success with it; however, they’ve all gained the weight back that they lost!
Unless you’re willing to eat the keto lifestyle forever, then you will regain the weight as you start increasing your carb intake & because of fluid retention.
I never support a diet that gives up any food groups because it’s absolutely not necessary! Why live in misery by not eating carbs? You can easily lose weight while eating cake, ice cream, pizza, & all the yummy things.
As long as you maintain your energy balance (CICO), the only thing you will gain back is the water needed to store the extra glucose that the carbs deliver to your body. You will NOT gain it all back simply because you are eating carbs...
As for the misery part, some people are quite happy cutting back on or completely giving up carbs and are not 'miserable' because of it.5 -
the_real_me_lissa wrote: »You can easily lose weight while eating cake, ice cream, pizza, & all the yummy things.
Yikes! I am unable to let this one go by without comment. While it is possible for most people to lose weight eating the type of things you mentioned, I doubt it is easy for very many of them. For those of us who experience overpowering carb cravings - it is impossible. Impossible because we are unable to stop at just a couple of pieces of pizza or just one donut. I'm talking about more than cravings. Its getting the shakes and physical pain from eating high glycemic items (most with added sugar and/or flour) even if we are staying well within our calorie limits. Worse, carb cravings feel almost exactly like very strong hunger pains and are most easily eliminated by consuming more carbs that will have us feeling starved again 2 hours later. What is easy, is staying away from food items that cause this kind of reaction.
That's the beauty of keto. Eating enough to stay healthy without feeling hungry because of carb cravings. Keto does not eliminate any food group, but it does place limits. Keto does not cause weight loss. Eating fewer calories than are expended does that. Keto, and various other low carb programs, just makes eating fewer calories easier for some people. Everyone is different and individual carbohydrate tolerance will vary from person to person. Finding what works personally for each of us that can become our forever way of eating and staying healthy should be the goal. Strict keto is not for me, but if that is what works for someone else, then I say have at it.
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While it is possible for most people to lose weight eating the type of things you mentioned, I doubt it is easy for very many of them.
I disagree.
I think for most people it is easier to lose weight without denying yourself foods you like. ( pizza, cake , whatever)
Not in unlimited quantity or frequency, of course
Most people can do that without uncontrollable carb cravings.
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paperpudding wrote: »While it is possible for most people to lose weight eating the type of things you mentioned, I doubt it is easy for very many of them.
I disagree.
I think for most people it is easier to lose weight without denying yourself foods you like. ( pizza, cake , whatever)
Not in unlimited quantity or frequency, of course
Most people can do that without uncontrollable carb cravings.
You mean most people except the 72% of Americans who are overweight or obese. Sorry I couldn't resist. But yeah, people can lose weight eating anything, unfortunately it's how long can they continue to do it without looking at a possible critique at what they eat and in what quantities. When people do critique their diet, it can and does lead down the low carb and keto pathway or at least for many.0 -
paperpudding wrote: »While it is possible for most people to lose weight eating the type of things you mentioned, I doubt it is easy for very many of them.
I think for most people it is easier to lose weight without denying yourself foods you like. ( pizza, cake , whatever)
Not in unlimited quantity or frequency, of course
Most people can do that without uncontrollable carb cravings.
I have no problem agreeing with this.
Its a matter of degree that was directed at everyone by @the_real_me_lissa . "Easily" is saying the objective (losing weight while eating whatever one likes) can be achieved without effort or trouble. That is an absolute.
To say something is easier in this instance is a comparison of different methods to achieve an identical objective. It's use was quantified to, "most people." It might be true for all I know. To limit the quantity or frequency of consuming foods you like is still a degree of denial which implies a smidgen or more of effort.
In the context of this keto thread, I think any statement that claims we are all making ourselves miserable if we don't eat cake and ice cream while trying to lose weight because it is easy should be challenged. I'm still on the fence about the pizza thing though.
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Limiting pizza and ice-cream is one thing, but keto is so restrictive I wouldn't even be able to eat 'proper' amounts of vegetables and fruit. Just the butternut squash I ate with dinner yesterday would be too many carbs for keto.
Any diet that limits my intake of fruit and vegetables is a big no no in my book. I could possibly, maybe handle a lower carb diet than I'm following, but keto is several bridges too far for me.2 -
the_real_me_lissa wrote: »I’ve done a lot of research on the keto diet & know several people who have had great success with it; however, they’ve all gained the weight back that they lost!
.
Unless you’re willing to eat the keto lifestyle forever, then you will regain the weight as you start increasing your carb intake & because of fluid retention.
I never support a diet that gives up any food groups because it’s absolutely not necessary! Why live in misery by not eating carbs? You can easily lose weight while eating cake, ice cream, pizza, & all the yummy things.
IMO, you're on shaky ground telling people what's - for them - "not necessary", "living in misery", or will let them "easily lose weight".
It's great that that works for you. It also works for me, though I'm not a huge cake/cookie person - more the ice cream/pizza fan, myself. Not exclusively that, of course, because I also love me some veggies and fruits, in truly massive quantities (part of why I wouldn't choose keto personally).
It should be possible to say what you don't like about an eating approach, why you wouldn't do it, without being dismissive about what others might choose to do, it seems like? (It's also a pretty terrible way to persuade others to our own way of thinking, IME, if that's among the intentions.)
Keto is compatible with a reasonably nutritious overall way of eating. (I can understand a critique about ways of eating that don't permit reasonable nutrition.)
That people you know who did keto regained the weight is no indication of much of anything. Statistically, most people who lose weight by any method regain the weight. Among people I know, I know many who've lost weight, and only a tiny number who started materially overweight then stayed at a healthy weight long term. I can think of 3 offhand, and I'm one of them . . . but very nearly everyone I know has "dieted for weight loss" at some point, without great long-term success. (The only exceptions are some always-slim people, whose habits/preferences seemingly semi-automagically regulate their weight.)
IMO, long term success is about picking a sustainable method that relies on habits that relatively easy and happy to continue long term, almost on autopilot. For some people, that may be keto. For others, it may not.
Pretty sure you didn't read the thread before posting. That's obviously permissible, just fine, but it does tend to have implications for a person's reputation here, if that matters to a person.0 -
neanderthin wrote: »paperpudding wrote: »While it is possible for most people to lose weight eating the type of things you mentioned, I doubt it is easy for very many of them.
I disagree.
I think for most people it is easier to lose weight without denying yourself foods you like. ( pizza, cake , whatever)
Not in unlimited quantity or frequency, of course
Most people can do that without uncontrollable carb cravings.
You mean most people except the 72% of Americans who are overweight or obese. Sorry I couldn't resist. But yeah, people can lose weight eating anything, unfortunately it's how long can they continue to do it without looking at a possible critique at what they eat and in what quantities. When people do critique their diet, it can and does lead down the low carb and keto pathway or at least for many.
No - I mean the people trying to lose weight, like my post said.
72% of Americans may be overweight or obese but they are not all trying to lose weight nor are those trying to do so using a method that is easier for them
Sorry , I dislike what I said being misrepresented.
I think for most people it is easier to lose weight without denying yourself foods you like (pizza, cake whatever) although obviously one needs to limit quantity and frequency
and No, I don't agree that critiquing one's diet leads to low carb or keto for many - for a few perhaps but I would say they are in the minority of all people trying to lose weight and/or improve their nutrition
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paperpudding wrote: »neanderthin wrote: »paperpudding wrote: »While it is possible for most people to lose weight eating the type of things you mentioned, I doubt it is easy for very many of them.
I disagree.
I think for most people it is easier to lose weight without denying yourself foods you like. ( pizza, cake , whatever)
Not in unlimited quantity or frequency, of course
Most people can do that without uncontrollable carb cravings.
You mean most people except the 72% of Americans who are overweight or obese. Sorry I couldn't resist. But yeah, people can lose weight eating anything, unfortunately it's how long can they continue to do it without looking at a possible critique at what they eat and in what quantities. When people do critique their diet, it can and does lead down the low carb and keto pathway or at least for many.
No - I mean the people trying to lose weight, like my post said.
72% of Americans may be overweight or obese but they are not all trying to lose weight nor are those trying to do so using a method that is easier for them
Sorry , I dislike what I said being misrepresented.
I think for most people it is easier to lose weight without denying yourself foods you like (pizza, cake whatever) although obviously one needs to limit quantity and frequency
and No, I don't agree that critiquing one's diet leads to low carb or keto for many - for a few perhaps but I would say they are in the minority of all people trying to lose weight and/or improve their nutritionpaperpudding wrote: »neanderthin wrote: »paperpudding wrote: »While it is possible for most people to lose weight eating the type of things you mentioned, I doubt it is easy for very many of them.
I disagree.
I think for most people it is easier to lose weight without denying yourself foods you like. ( pizza, cake , whatever)
Not in unlimited quantity or frequency, of course
Most people can do that without uncontrollable carb cravings.
You mean most people except the 72% of Americans who are overweight or obese. Sorry I couldn't resist. But yeah, people can lose weight eating anything, unfortunately it's how long can they continue to do it without looking at a possible critique at what they eat and in what quantities. When people do critique their diet, it can and does lead down the low carb and keto pathway or at least for many.
No - I mean the people trying to lose weight, like my post said.
72% of Americans may be overweight or obese but they are not all trying to lose weight nor are those trying to do so using a method that is easier for them
Sorry , I dislike what I said being misrepresented.
I think for most people it is easier to lose weight without denying yourself foods you like (pizza, cake whatever) although obviously one needs to limit quantity and frequency
and No, I don't agree that critiquing one's diet leads to low carb or keto for many - for a few perhaps but I would say they are in the minority of all people trying to lose weight and/or improve their nutrition
Well, I did say except the 72% and yeah, the low carb diet has become very popular for a reason and I didn't say it was the majority, I said for many and many could still be a minority. And I agreed with you that people can lose weight eating whatever they like and personally don't really care what people eat or do to lose weight as long as it's sustainable and they can keep it off. Cheers.
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