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To Keto or Not To Keto?
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the_real_me_lissa wrote: »I’ve done a lot of research on the keto diet & know several people who have had great success with it; however, they’ve all gained the weight back that they lost!
Unless you’re willing to eat the keto lifestyle forever, then you will regain the weight as you start increasing your carb intake & because of fluid retention.
I never support a diet that gives up any food groups because it’s absolutely not necessary! Why live in misery by not eating carbs? You can easily lose weight while eating cake, ice cream, pizza, & all the yummy things.
I have run many diets to include keto. I thought, for the most part, that is was fairly easy. I got down to 163 with this "diet". I mainly came off of it because i shifted my focus on lifting and keto kills lifting performance, even when keto adapted. I know sit between 167-170 but that is also because it's holiday season, so I tear up some food and enjoy the unintentional muscle gains from the increase food loading.
To also, point out that almost any diet has a high failure rate because people never incorporate the mechanisms for long-term success. It doesn't matter which diet you follow at the end of the day, but what matters is your ability to understand the strategies to maintain energy balance.
That is why I've been able to keep off my weight for the past 12 years and have always fluctuated between 165 lb and 170 lb, with the exception of when i went beast mode on a Disney vacation 😂.
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the_real_me_lissa wrote: »I’ve done a lot of research on the keto diet & know several people who have had great success with it; however, they’ve all gained the weight back that they lost!
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Unless you’re willing to eat the keto lifestyle forever, then you will regain the weight as you start increasing your carb intake & because of fluid retention.
I never support a diet that gives up any food groups because it’s absolutely not necessary! Why live in misery by not eating carbs? You can easily lose weight while eating cake, ice cream, pizza, & all the yummy things.
IMO, you're on shaky ground telling people what's - for them - "not necessary", "living in misery", or will let them "easily lose weight".
It's great that that works for you. It also works for me, though I'm not a huge cake/cookie person - more the ice cream/pizza fan, myself. Not exclusively that, of course, because I also love me some veggies and fruits, in truly massive quantities (part of why I wouldn't choose keto personally).
It should be possible to say what you don't like about an eating approach, why you wouldn't do it, without being dismissive about what others might choose to do, it seems like? (It's also a pretty terrible way to persuade others to our own way of thinking, IME, if that's among the intentions.)
Keto is compatible with a reasonably nutritious overall way of eating. (I can understand a critique about ways of eating that don't permit reasonable nutrition.)
That people you know who did keto regained the weight is no indication of much of anything. Statistically, most people who lose weight by any method regain the weight. Among people I know, I know many who've lost weight, and only a tiny number who started materially overweight then stayed at a healthy weight long term. I can think of 3 offhand, and I'm one of them . . . but very nearly everyone I know has "dieted for weight loss" at some point, without great long-term success. (The only exceptions are some always-slim people, whose habits/preferences seemingly semi-automagically regulate their weight.)
IMO, long term success is about picking a sustainable method that relies on habits that relatively easy and happy to continue long term, almost on autopilot. For some people, that may be keto. For others, it may not.
Pretty sure you didn't read the thread before posting. That's obviously permissible, just fine, but it does tend to have implications for a person's reputation here, if that matters to a person.
Shaky ground and obviously permissible but reputation could be in question? Interesting post where the thought police of Oceania came to mind. Cheers.2 -
For me I can eat 1500 calories of good carbs veggies grains fruit and gain weight. If I eat 1500 calories of keto I lose weight1
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For me I can eat 1500 calories of good carbs veggies grains fruit and gain weight. If I eat 1500 calories of keto I lose weight
Over what period are we taking that you tried both methods? Because it's true short-term due to losing water weight from the reduction in carbs in keto.3 -
Kind of vague really. Studies don't back this up. Different dietary strategies when controlled in a ward type setting show basically no difference from one diet to another. Good point on the water weight, but again this is short lived. Cheers.2 -
@mtaratoot posted: "My truck burns gasoline when I drive it even if I break open the dashboard and yank off the dial for the fuel gauge."
thank you - understood the first part - heard it much that our body only needs so much fuel and excess gas runs out of the car, in our body ends up in weight gain. the rest is a new2me thought - very helpful.
otherwise not sharing anything decisive in support of the original question to keto or not to keto (clever title) - but rather, sharing my personal observations.... after reading this and other discussions about keto, low carb, and the great sugar/food addictions conversations....
practically speaking, imho, for me, keto food choices is an approach, like the mediteranean diet plan or any meal plan diet is an approach that suggest types of food to eat. 1 way or another, we need to understand how much our bodies need and when too much is too much. That can be some sort of formal counting system (e.g. calorie counting, weight watcher points, food exchange plans, OR following a plan someone else designed and calculated OR some other technique such as moderating by the fit of clothes or whatever a person tries.... hopefully tries things that are helpful for the body and emotionally satisfying.
Different things work at different times for me... and it's ok to evolve... Certainly the fad diets the women in our family did when I was young, like the cabbage soup diet were not emotionally tolerable, and it wasn't long before we threw down the towel and went back to eating/feasting/treating without restrictions.
As to emerging research - sometimes I read threads and get caught in the semantics. Whether one calls something a food addiction or eating disorder or behavioral problem - it helps me to sort through the technical info and find the kernels of truth. Excess/Overeating leads to weight gain. In some people, overeating carbs or combinations of foods can trigger a chemical response in the brain (as measured by PET scans, etc) similar to drugs/alcohol and, for some people, it can trigger a voracious appetite. This response to overeating/eating particular combinations of foods seems to be for 'some people and not necessarily all people' similar to 'some people and not necessarily all people' become physically and/or emotionally dependant on alcohol and some never do...
Further, it seems addictions (food/alcohol/drug abuse) tend to be progressive over usage and time - so food abuse may not appear to be a problem in early stages, at a younger age/in the beginning of a behavioral abuse until later when it becomes an impairment for the person - and in the end stages lead to death (think super-morbid obesity) and the person feels utterly powerless to stop, change, lose the weight and keep it off - they say maybe only 1 or 2% who are in the super-obese range actually manage to lose weight which means 98-99% fail to keep it off, even after the weight loss surgery. This is a dire statistic that reflects how deadly serious the issue is and how tough it is to lose the weight and keep it off, by any method.
It seems to me - when someone is so far into behavioral overeating with triggered voracious appetite going - starting any particular eating approach, whether keto or a proscribed meal plan, can seem hellacious. How does one go from eating say 6k to 10k cals a day to say 1,500 or even 2400... or whatever - emotionally for a person it can feel impossibly restrictive and intolerable... I would suggest when someone throws down the towel, quits and dives back into food - it is not the failure of the meal plan... And going from a state of out of control eating for someone who is super-overweight - is way more complicated than just starting a calorie deficit diet and entails relearning to live life without abusing food - in the same manner as overcoming any of the commonly accepted addictions that include both relearning how to live life without the substance (behavioral changes) AND abstinence (which you can't with food because you must eat, so instead need to moderate to eat enough, not too much).
Practically speaking for me, Keto and low carb meal plans help me initially to break the voracious appetite, and food choices go along, hand in hand, with working on all the behavioral things that need to be addressed in attitudes, beliefs, ideas and ways I overeat ~ that need to be resolved in order to actually lose and keep off the weight. Work in progress... i have not overcome this yet - but I hate to think it is not possible.... it is just way more involved that CICO or Keto... Sorting out what works best personally for each person is what leads to progress for each person... Grateful there's more than one approach available
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LifeChangz wrote: »Different things work at different times for me... and it's ok to evolve... Certainly the fad diets the women in our family did when I was young, like the cabbage soup diet were not emotionally tolerable, and it wasn't long before we threw down the towel and went back to eating/feasting/treating without restrictions.
So, so many people are desperate to find a diet plan that will actually work that they latch onto every new fad that comes along in the hopes that this "plan" will work. Only to discover that not only did their latest effort not work, but was counterproductive because they ended up heavier than ever when the overly restrictive fad-plan got too hard to continue. The problem is exacerbated by weight loss gurus and internet influencers making a living by promising foolproof results if "their" plan is followed. One of the great things about MFP and the forums here is the chance to know of the experiences of other, real, people trying to lose weight and be fit.LifeChangz wrote: »Practically speaking for me, Keto and low carb meal plans help me initially to break the voracious appetite, and food choices go along, hand in hand, with working on all the behavioral things that need to be addressed in attitudes, beliefs, ideas and ways I overeat ~ that need to be resolved in order to actually lose and keep off the weight. Work in progress... i have not overcome this yet - but I hate to think it is not possible.... it is just way more involved that CICO or Keto... Sorting out what works best personally for each person is what leads to progress for each person... Grateful there's more than one approach available
Amen!
I would add that discovering the triggers that lead to overeating and poor choices, be they emotional, medical, quality of sleep, food type, or whatever is part of what leads to progress too. Finding ways to avoid these triggers in our individual "forever way of eating" while being happy and healthy is a goal worthy of effort. Keto and low-carb are tools in the box of possibilities that might help with this goal.
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On another note, Dave MacLeod, an elite Scottish climber, believes that the keto diet was useful for his depression. He did a TLDR video on it, which is very detailed. (Disclaimer: I don't use keto myself, as I like some carbs.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9dtfNZahKw 0 -
That’s really interesting- I think keto was originally developed as a treatment for severe epilepsy. Wonder what it is about no carbs that affects the brain? 🤔On another note, Dave MacLeod, an elite Scottish climber, believes that the keto diet was useful for his depression. He did a TLDR video on it, which is very detailed. (Disclaimer: I don't use keto myself, as I like some carbs.)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9dtfNZahKw
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claireychn074 wrote: »
That’s really interesting- I think keto was originally developed as a treatment for severe epilepsy. Wonder what it is about no carbs that affects the brain? 🤔On another note, Dave MacLeod, an elite Scottish climber, believes that the keto diet was useful for his depression. He did a TLDR video on it, which is very detailed. (Disclaimer: I don't use keto myself, as I like some carbs.)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9dtfNZahKw
It's not the no carbs really but the effect that ketone bodies and more specifically, butyrate which is an end product of fat metabolism get's utilized by the brain as a fuel, and bypasses the glucose pathway and supplies energy for the brain where glucose metabolism might be dysfunctional in epileptics and people with Alzheimer's, Parkinson's and dementia for example and considering people with diabetes are at a much higher risk of dementia, around 60% greater risk, some scientists feel that insulin resistance can happen or spread to the brain and is sometimes referred to diabetes 3, which isn't a real medical term just a term that the some of the medical community feels is appropriate at this time. imo
The Military are experimenting with ketone esters to be consumed 30 minutes before objectives for brain clarity and cognition awareness for example and the esters is because implementing the diet is too difficult when it comes to compliance. But in the context of the ketogenic diet it's basically to mimic starvation which produces ketones and removing carbs creates the same environment without actually starving, which is kind of important. It's all a little confusing, trust me on that one. That clip is 4hrs and I haven't watched it, just mentioning that, but I might if I can find the time.0 -
regarding info on the brain & the 'type 3' diabetes comments. to add to the discussion - had read or heard somewhere that the blood brain barrier is there to prevent harmful things to reach the brain through blood - so they theorized that the blood brain barrier prevents the 'glucose lowering' medicines from reducing blood sugar in the brain, that the brain has it's own mechanisms for blood sugar levels and blood sugars can remain high in the brain which also keeps inflammation high in the brain, leaving the brain susceptible to more 'diabetes related' damage leading to things such as the alzheimers. Perhaps same with other sources of inflammation... thought that was interesting when I heard it and a reason to focus on helping my body with nourishing food and intentional movement.1
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LifeChangz wrote: »regarding info on the brain & the 'type 3' diabetes comments. to add to the discussion - had read or heard somewhere that the blood brain barrier is there to prevent harmful things to reach the brain through blood - so they theorized that the blood brain barrier prevents the 'glucose lowering' medicines from reducing blood sugar in the brain, that the brain has it's own mechanisms for blood sugar levels and blood sugars can remain high in the brain which also keeps inflammation high in the brain, leaving the brain susceptible to more 'diabetes related' damage leading to things such as the alzheimers. Perhaps same with other sources of inflammation... thought that was interesting when I heard it and a reason to focus on helping my body with nourishing food and intentional movement.
Diabetes Mellitus and Blood-Brain Barrier Dysfunction: An Overview
https://ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4306190/
A host of diabetes-related insults to the central nervous system (CNS) have been clearly documented in type-1 and -2 diabetic patients as well as experimental animal models. These host of neurological disorders encompass hemodynamic impairments (e.g., stroke), vascular dementia, cognitive deficits (mild to moderate), as well as a number of neurochemical, electrophysiological and behavioral alterations. The underlying causes of diabetes-induced CNS complications are multifactorial and are relatively little understood although it is now evident that blood-brain barrier (BBB) damage plays a significant role in diabetes-dependent CNS disorders.
Altered glycemic conditions such as those observed in diabetic patients are prodromal to blood-brain barrier (BBB) impairment [34,41-46]. This is of paramount relevance for the pathogenesis of brain disorders in DM since the BBB act as a gate keeper of the brain with a range of interrelated functions including protecting the CNS from potentially harmful substances, regulate transport of essential molecules, maintain the brain homeostasis, and provide immune regulatory functions
Overall, the current common consensus is that diabetes-dependent alteration of systemic glucose level play a significant role in the pathogenesis and/or progression of major neurological disorders by altering the structural and functional properties of the BBB [2,122,134]. However, this field of research is still severely under-explored. In depth studies aimed at unraveling how DM progressively alters BBB function and structure, the molecular players and mechanisms involved are still very much needed.
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wow @neanderthin ~ yes, that. scary stuff - and a good reason to give our body an assist with nourishing foods and intentional beneficial movement.1
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I've only been on keto for a couple of weeks. Yes, the pounds are coming off quickly as many of you have said they would the first few weeks. What is really interesting to me is that I'm not as hungry anymore. I was always hungry before. I think I will struggle with getting all the fat that I will need and not eating as many veggies as I would like, so I can see how this will be hard to maintain. I was at a point though where I needed to do something and this is really pretty easy. I have only craved sugar a couple of times. Mostly I would just eat carbs like tortilla chips because it was easy or I was bored.0
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CottonwoodMama1 wrote: »I've only been on keto for a couple of weeks. Yes, the pounds are coming off quickly as many of you have said they would the first few weeks. What is really interesting to me is that I'm not as hungry anymore. I was always hungry before. I think I will struggle with getting all the fat that I will need and not eating as many veggies as I would like, so I can see how this will be hard to maintain. I was at a point though where I needed to do something and this is really pretty easy. I have only craved sugar a couple of times. Mostly I would just eat carbs like tortilla chips because it was easy or I was bored.
Don't be so strict that you make it more difficult than it has to be. Obviously, if someone is trying low carb or keto for weight lose, which you are then dietary fats are not as crucial simply because your body fat is being dispatched to compensate for the energy that would be needed if someone was on a keto diet and had low body fat. Anyway, there's a few different types of ketogenic diets depending on your goals and the one that most are on is the original (SKD) where protein and carbs are low and fat is very high, but that might not be the one for you. Personally I'm low carb and not too worried about being in ketosis but when I was on a ketogenic diet I used the (TKD) targeted ketogenic diet that allows more carbs for people that workout for example. anyways here's a link.
https://health.com/weight-loss/keto-diet-types#:~:text=Keto%20Diet%20Variations%201%20Standard%20Ketogenic%20Diet%20%28SKD%29,Keto%20Diet%20%28CKD%29%204%20High-Protein%20Keto%20Diet%20%28HPKD%291 -
neanderthin wrote: »CottonwoodMama1 wrote: »I've only been on keto for a couple of weeks. Yes, the pounds are coming off quickly as many of you have said they would the first few weeks. What is really interesting to me is that I'm not as hungry anymore. I was always hungry before. I think I will struggle with getting all the fat that I will need and not eating as many veggies as I would like, so I can see how this will be hard to maintain. I was at a point though where I needed to do something and this is really pretty easy. I have only craved sugar a couple of times. Mostly I would just eat carbs like tortilla chips because it was easy or I was bored.
Don't be so strict that you make it more difficult than it has to be. Obviously, if someone is trying low carb or keto for weight lose, which you are then dietary fats are not as crucial simply because your body fat is being dispatched to compensate for the energy that would be needed if someone was on a keto diet and had low body fat. Anyway, there's a few different types of ketogenic diets depending on your goals and the one that most are on is the original (SKD) where protein and carbs are low and fat is very high, but that might not be the one for you. Personally I'm low carb and not too worried about being in ketosis but when I was on a ketogenic diet I used the (TKD) targeted ketogenic diet that allows more carbs for people that workout for example. anyways here's a link.
https://health.com/weight-loss/keto-diet-types#:~:text=Keto%20Diet%20Variations%201%20Standard%20Ketogenic%20Diet%20%28SKD%29,Keto%20Diet%20%28CKD%29%204%20High-Protein%20Keto%20Diet%20%28HPKD%29
Exactly. Whenever you are trying to lose fat, never force feed yourself more fat. More fat consumption, means less fat loss. To get into ketosis, you only need carb restriction. So eat enough fat to ensure you feel satiated. When i do keto, i do higher protein and TKD like @neanderthin . So my carbs are focused pre-workout2 -
👎 No to keto but a 👍 modified Keto is something I feel is more balanced. I tried using the ketogenic pee sticks, trying to stay in that boundary but experienced heart palpitations plus I was worried about my kidneys and other issues ie hair loss, etc.0
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Keto is the only method that works for me. I know it’s because it reduces the amount of calories I eat but it’s best for me because I don’t have to track and it works.
It also serves as a reset on how I eat. I tend to eat far too many simple carbs. When I gain a few pounds, I go keto for a few weeks, lose the weight and break the pattern of eating a lot of carbs and this helps me to keep it off. I don’t know anyone who eats keto forever.1 -
ds9qkp2wcr wrote: »Keto is the only method that works for me. I know it’s because it reduces the amount of calories I eat but it’s best for me because I don’t have to track and it works.
It also serves as a reset on how I eat. I tend to eat far too many simple carbs. When I gain a few pounds, I go keto for a few weeks, lose the weight and break the pattern of eating a lot of carbs and this helps me to keep it off. I don’t know anyone who eats keto forever.
Most people that consume less than 100g's of carbs will be burning ketones (using for fuel) to some degree. I've been using ketones to different degrees for over 12 years and will continue forever. Early hominins and homo have been in what we would call a state of ketosis from the beginning up until grain cultivation (civilization) and a few cultures still, for the most part survive that way. Cheers0 -
For me it was a basic issue of observation. The more carbs I eat, the worse I got. The more I lower my carbs, the better I got. So I'm going with what works for me.
I even tried the ADA diet, controlled carb, etc. multiple times, because they never worked or stuck for long, they did not feel sustainable for me. Yes, having about half my plate full of healthy grains and veggies and fruit was better than going hog wild on carbs... but you know what was even better? Restricting carbs even further, or altogether.
The final pieces fell into place when I let go of my fear of fats and went high fat/low carb. My body is finally losing weight, functioning better, blood works getting better, weaning off meds, mentally I feel better, and I am no longer sabotaged by food addictions, hunger pangs, and crazy cravings.
On Youtube there are some very interesting documentaries called Fat and Fat 2 (I believe).
And Dr. Ken Berry has a great channel for low carbing, with a very interesting interview with a cardiologist who explains a lot of eye-opening facts about cholesterol.
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