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To Keto or Not To Keto?
Replies
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I don't think I could stick to keto. I have PCOS, and the recommended macros for PCOS are 20% carbs, 40% fat, 40% protein, and that works for me. My trainer also highly recommended NOT doing keto because of the lack of sustainability. I tend to agree. I could probably do it for a short amount of time, but I will have to eat low carb permanently to maintain my weight due to PCOS, so I think keto would not work for me. I've lost 18.6 pounds in a little over two months doing the 20% carbs, so I think what I'm doing is working, so I'm sticking with it.3
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ALL DIETS work if you follow their programs correctly and consistently. It's when you go off them that they don't work. Personally I tell all my clients NOT to diet. I tell them to use this app and count calories and be consistent. I look at their diaries and we tweek things up when they aren't progressing.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
This is what my trainer is doing. She has access to my diary and will make suggestions on new foods to try or things to tweak. So far I have not needed any major tweaks to what I'm eating, so it's working!4 -
The very word “diet” suggests something short term. At some point you have to find something that you can maintain or lose weight with. For some people it’s never ending different diets. If that works great. I had to get to a place where I just ate less and accept that I might feel hungry at times of the day. But it passes. And most times it passes fast. Once I got over that hurdle I found it much easier to eat less.3
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I have been told by a renal specialist to not do keto after my blood tests showed impaired kidney function. My concern with keto is how acidic it can make urine which in turn can lead to kidney stones. Also because kidney disease can occur in the absence of any symptoms, I would think it would be reasonable to have blood tests every 6 months to monitor kidney function of you do choose to do keto.
Here is pdf of a recent review and meta-analysis: https://www.mdpi.com/2079-9721/9/2/39/pdf
It concluded ...The estimated incidence of kidney stones in patients on ketogenic diets is 5.9%. Its incidence is approximately 5.8% in children and 7.9% in adults. Uric acid stones are the most prevalent kidney stones in patients on ketogenic diets followed by calcium-based stones. These findings may impact the prevention and clinical
management of kidney stones in patients on ketogenic diets.
As always the study does have its limitations and these are outlined in the paper. Hopefully there will be more research into this area so people can be informed of the risks.3 -
refactored wrote: »I have been told by a renal specialist to not do keto after my blood tests showed impaired kidney function. My concern with keto is how acidic it can make urine which in turn can lead to kidney stones. Also because kidney disease can occur in the absence of any symptoms, I would think it would be reasonable to have blood tests every 6 months to monitor kidney function of you do choose to do keto.
Here is pdf of a recent review and meta-analysis: https://www.mdpi.com/2079-9721/9/2/39/pdf
It concluded ...The estimated incidence of kidney stones in patients on ketogenic diets is 5.9%. Its incidence is approximately 5.8% in children and 7.9% in adults. Uric acid stones are the most prevalent kidney stones in patients on ketogenic diets followed by calcium-based stones. These findings may impact the prevention and clinical
management of kidney stones in patients on ketogenic diets.
As always the study does have its limitations and these are outlined in the paper. Hopefully there will be more research into this area so people can be informed of the risks.
You may want to follow the medical advice of your doctor.
You do understand your linked info is without actionable results. May-, Estimated terms shows a lot of guessing. How many stone were found in the control groups?0 -
It wasn't a randomised control trial (RCT). It was based on a review of other studies that included retrospectives. I think the point is that the potential risk of kidney stones with keto isn't will studied. Would there really be much funding for such an RCT anyway?1
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Yes...if you are going to do it your entire life. Like EVERY diet if it is temporary your results will also be temporary!1
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I just started keto, but within my daily calorie allowance. What I discovered is that I am satisfied with the food I’m eating and feel satiated. On other macro combinations I’m feeling starved all the time. Some days My hunger is so diminished that I leave calories uneaten. Gasp!
I have a higher chance of being successful long term eating this way because I don’t h feel like I’m starving to death which creates a diet-sabatoging binging backlash.
Not going to lie, I’m already missing potatoes and pasta but obviously those foods trigger my appetite.1 -
ALL DIETS work if you follow their programs correctly and consistently. It's when you go off them that they don't work. Personally I tell all my clients NOT to diet. I tell them to use this app and count calories and be consistent. I look at their diaries and we tweek things up when they aren't progressing.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
"It's when you go off them that they don't work." Truer words were never spoken.
Two words. Portion control.
No one can talk you out of keto if you really want to. @LeavingBusy Missing potatoes and pasta? Wait until the keto is finished and then fall right back into the foods that you have always eaten. Cross your fingers or hope that you will never find them appetizing ever again. Gut it out until you can't.
Rebound weight gain with friends will marsh a mellow. Starting over and over, again. Any food can trigger the appetite if it's genuine hunger. Why not throw all of the dieting out with the bathwater. Learn to sit in your life with the foods you love. Portion control it, waaaay into the future. There's no finish line with portion control.
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I just started keto, but within my daily calorie allowance. What I discovered is that I am satisfied with the food I’m eating and feel satiated. On other macro combinations I’m feeling starved all the time. Some days My hunger is so diminished that I leave calories uneaten. Gasp!
Not sure the point of the gasp! as if this is a source of pride or joy - one is actually suppossed to eat to one's calorie allowance not aim to go under or leave calories uneaten ( on average and approximately, of course)
I also noted you say you just started keto- It seems this honeymoon phase is common with many people on any new diet, not just keto - where they don't feel hungry at first because the novelty and enthusiasm of change.
Something to be aware of.3 -
The Keto Diet is very polarizing. Everyone sees it as the biggest revelation ever or as snake oil. There's very little middle ground.
I'm a vote against the Keto Diet. If carbs were as fattening as the Keto proponents claimed, I'd be on _My 600 Pound Life_. Instead, I'm about the same height and weight as Taylor Swift and Claudia Schiffer. (But I'm not as good-looking, as charming, or as graceful.)
What I recommend is avoiding junk food or at least minimizing your consumption of it. The various polarized dietary factions endlessly argue about so many things, but they all agree that refined sugars, refined grains, high fructose corn syrup, artificial sweeteners (like aspartame), deep-fried vegetable seed oils, hydrogenated fats, and FD&C coloring chemicals are bad for your health.0 -
Ooo dear. You won't find everyone in agreement here about refined sugars, refined grains, HFCS, artificial sweeteners.....
We have some pasta and pizza eaters that would tell how the cow ate the cabbage and clean your clock. The unvarnished truth about rice and noodles, pizza and pasta washed down with a diet soda. I'll wait for one to come along, shortly.1 -
The Keto Diet is very polarizing. Everyone sees it as the biggest revelation ever or as snake oil. There's very little middle ground.
No I dont think that is true at all
Not on MFP at any rate
Many posters who do keto can recognise it isnt for everyone or the pros and cons of it and many people who do not do keto can recognise the benifiit of it for others
Speaking for myself I dont see it as the biggest revelation ever or snake oil.
I do see it as a way of eating that works for some people sometimes but is also a bit of a trendy fad for others
you seem to be trying to make a false dichotomy that is not really there.
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I've never seen someone do Keto and successfully keep the weight off longterm and my office is full of people who've attempted it.2
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MFP has several members who have done so though.3
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Oh I believe you, but I don't know them personally.0
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We've gotten caught up in the trap that less is more. It's not enough to eat the foods we like, they must be better quality foods. We have to eat low carb and then push that into no carb. Add some intermittent fasting and extend the hours into days that we fast.
Less is more until it's not. The way we eat sets the rhythms for everything else. Stress, sleep and movement.
If you can't sleep, some compensate with more food and/or caffeine. It may affect movement and leave you with less energy to do everything else. The cycles continue.
"ALL DIETS work if you follow their programs correctly and consistently. It's when you go off them that they don't work. Personally I tell all my clients NOT to diet. " @ninerbuff
After 5 years, about 5% of people on-non surgical weight loss programs can keep off the weight. With weight loss surgery it's 7% even with procedures like the gastric bypass. There's no such thing as a free lunch for those wanting to maintain long term weight stability. It takes focus and wrestling with ourselves. Start coasting and it can easily go out the window.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18392907/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5764193/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3901982/
Camps, S. G., Verhoef, S. P., & Westerterp, K. R. (2013). Weight loss, weight maintenance, and adaptive thermogenesis. The American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, 97(5), 990–994. https://doi.org/10.3945/ajcn.112.050310
Castellanos, E. H., Charboneau, E., Dietrich, M. S., Park, S., Bradley, B. P., Mogg, K., & Cowan, R. L. (2009). Obese adults have visual attention bias for food cue images: evidence for altered reward system function. International Journal of Obesity, 33(9), 1063–1073. https://doi.org/10.1038/ijo.2009.138
de Ridder, D. T. D., Lensvelt-Mulders, G., Finkenauer, C., Stok, F. M., & Baumeister, R. F. (2012). Taking stock of self-control: a meta-analysis of how trait self-control relates to a wide range of behaviors. Personality and Social Psychology Review, 16(1), 76–99. https://doi.org/10.1177/1088868311418749
DeLany, J. P., Kelley, D. E., Hames, K. C., Jakicic, J. M., & Goodpaster, B. H. (2014). Effect of physical activity on weight loss, energy expenditure, and energy intake during diet induced weight loss. Obesity, 22(2), 363–370. https://doi.org/10.1002/oby.20525
Doucet, E., St-Pierre, S., Alméras, N., & Tremblay, A. (2003). Relation between appetite ratings before and after a standard meal and estimates of daily energy intake in obese and reduced obese individuals. Appetite, 40(2), 137–143. https://doi.org/10.1016/S0195-6663(02)00143-5
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paperpudding wrote: »The Keto Diet is very polarizing. Everyone sees it as the biggest revelation ever or as snake oil. There's very little middle ground.
No I dont think that is true at all
Not on MFP at any rate
Many posters who do keto can recognise it isnt for everyone or the pros and cons of it and many people who do not do keto can recognise the benifiit of it for others
Speaking for myself I dont see it as the biggest revelation ever or snake oil.
I do see it as a way of eating that works for some people sometimes but is also a bit of a trendy fad for others
you seem to be trying to make a false dichotomy that is not really there.
Exactly this.
I have a generally positive view of keto as a diet that can be done healthfully and that for some is an easier or more pleasant way to have a deficit. Personally, I prefer to eat somewhat low carb (not because I think carbs are inherently fattening, calories are calories when it comes to weight loss), but because I tend to prefer eating that way, especially when at a deficit.2 -
I've been low carb basically since 1998 and have maintained my weight effortlessly for the most part while losing 50 lbs in that initial transition without tracking calories. I tried Keto a few times but it required me to monitor carbs and protein which I did with intermittently checking ketones and the end result was I didn't feel or see any benefit, so I just stick to my original plan and no monitoring.0
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Strict keto is hard to do, but is a good way to transition to a low carb eating style. Keto for a couple of months -> relatively low carb permanently. Whatever it takes to get away from too much sugar and eating processed, commercially prepared mixes. Everyone's digestion of carbs differ. Some, like LeavingBusy, "gasp" at the realization that they can start loosing weight without being on a portion restriction plan that leaves them miserable when they try Keto.
The "calorie in-calorie out" method of controlling portions while eating "healthy" is far too simplistic for today's cheap, easy and highly refined standard American diet. The type of calories consumed plays a key role of being able to control portions for many. Any attempt to reduce weight by a change in eating style is doomed to failure if it can not be a permanent, life long change.0 -
Strict keto is hard to do, but is a good way to transition to a low carb eating style. Keto for a couple of months -> relatively low carb permanently. Whatever it takes to get away from too much sugar and eating processed, commercially prepared mixes. Everyone's digestion of carbs differ. Some, like LeavingBusy, "gasp" at the realization that they can start loosing weight without being on a portion restriction plan that leaves them miserable when they try Keto.
The "calorie in-calorie out" method of controlling portions while eating "healthy" is far too simplistic for today's cheap, easy and highly refined standard American diet. The type of calories consumed plays a key role of being able to control portions for many. Any attempt to reduce weight by a change in eating style is doomed to failure if it can not be a permanent, life long change.
So you are equating calorie counting and eating healthfully with the so-called Standard American Diet? That's odd, from my perspective.
And calories don't have "types" any more than miles or kilometers have types. Foods have lots of characteristics: Calorie content is one such characteristic, density of various nutrients are other characteristics, as is how sating a particular person finds a particular food, and there are more.
Some of us - like me - managed to get fat while not eating boatloads of sugar, or commercially prepared mixes, fast food, etc. Go figure. I didn't change the range of foods I eat to lose weight, nor to maintain a healthy weight for 6+ years since, and wasn't "miserable" en route or now.
Low carb and SAD aren't the only two possible ways to eat, and the whole issue is IMO more nuanced than you're implying.
For clarity, if low carb or keto is the right "permanent, life long change" for someone to stay at a healthy weight long term, I'm cheering for them, quite sincerely. Me, I'm happier eating my 200g+ carbs daily.8 -
Strict keto is hard to do, but is a good way to transition to a low carb eating style. Keto for a couple of months -> relatively low carb permanently. Whatever it takes to get away from too much sugar and eating processed, commercially prepared mixes. Everyone's digestion of carbs differ. Some, like LeavingBusy, "gasp" at the realization that they can start loosing weight without being on a portion restriction plan that leaves them miserable when they try Keto.
The "calorie in-calorie out" method of controlling portions while eating "healthy" is far too simplistic for today's cheap, easy and highly refined standard American diet. The type of calories consumed plays a key role of being able to control portions for many. Any attempt to reduce weight by a change in eating style is doomed to failure if it can not be a permanent, life long change.
Along the lines of what @AnnPT77 was saying, I lost 60 pounds and have mostly maintained that loss for a few years now. However, I don't find fat particularly satisfying, so I focus on carbs, which do fill me up, and protein, which is pretty satiating to me as well. More notably, probably 75% of my diet is delivery/takeout/dine-in restaurant food. No problem losing or maintaining and all of my health markers (blood pressure, A1C, resting heart rate, weight, nutrition panel, etc.) are spot on.
I would imagine that I'm pretty much the poster child for what you think of when you refer to the standard American diet. You're absolutely correct that overhauling your eating style isn't likely to lead to sustainable weight loss. There are just a whole lot of eating styles that lead to the same outcome.3 -
Strict keto is hard to do, but is a good way to transition to a low carb eating style. Keto for a couple of months -> relatively low carb permanently. Whatever it takes to get away from too much sugar and eating processed, commercially prepared mixes. Everyone's digestion of carbs differ. Some, like LeavingBusy, "gasp" at the realization that they can start loosing weight without being on a portion restriction plan that leaves them miserable when they try Keto.
The "calorie in-calorie out" method of controlling portions while eating "healthy" is far too simplistic for today's cheap, easy and highly refined standard American diet. The type of calories consumed plays a key role of being able to control portions for many. Any attempt to reduce weight by a change in eating style is doomed to failure if it can not be a permanent, life long change.
Just to point out, regardless of diet preference, failure is extremely high.1 -
I would imagine that I'm pretty much the poster child for what you think of when you refer to the standard American diet. You're absolutely correct that overhauling your eating style isn't likely to lead to sustainable weight loss. There are just a whole lot of eating styles that lead to the same outcome.
COGypsy, I am sincerely happy for you and others like @AnnPT77 who have found ongoing success in weight management. But surely you two aren't suggesting that what has proven to work for you is the only way to lose weight and keep it off for everyone any more than what I have found works for me is. The original question was "to keto or not to keto". The answer differs from person to person, and I am not able to come up with an answer that fits everyone. Heck, I can't even figure out what, "agnostic of diet preference," is suppose to mean.
To be clear: The often repeated advice to eat less and exercise more, to follow the MyPlate or food pyramid guidelines, that CICO is all you have to do for long-term success, has proven to be an utter failure for many that has led to a surge in obesity and chronic diseases. Everybody is different. What works for one might not work for others. The goal is to find what works for you for the rest of your life. If that is strict Keto, fine. Its not easy to do though.0 -
Gypsy and Ann didn't seem to be saying their way was for everyone at all.
not sure how you got that from their posts.
CICO does work for everyone- that bit isn't a failure for anyone.
Whether people can sustain whatever way of eating created their calorie deficit is the question, not whether CICO works.
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Those pesky gut microbiota and hormones are feeling neglected in that sterile world of CICO imo.
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neanderthin wrote: »Those pesky gut microbiota and hormones are feeling neglected in that sterile world of CICO imo.
At a calorie-appropriate plan involving 800 grams plus of veggies/fruits daily, 100g protein (with attention to protein quality), 50g fat with some attention to the ratios of MUFAs/PUFAs to sat fats and O-6 to O-3, not to mention a taste for naturally probiotic foods . . . I don't think my microbiome or hormones feel neglected.
Just believing that calorie balance directly affects body weight doesn't imply that calories are the only thing that matters about food and eating. There are even other factors (like satiation and energy level) that indirectly affect success at calorie balance, especially long term.
Calories, nutrition, satiation, tastiness, practicality, affordability, and more - in the balance that an individual wants and needs: I think that's the picture.I would imagine that I'm pretty much the poster child for what you think of when you refer to the standard American diet. You're absolutely correct that overhauling your eating style isn't likely to lead to sustainable weight loss. There are just a whole lot of eating styles that lead to the same outcome.
COGypsy, I am sincerely happy for you and others like @AnnPT77 who have found ongoing success in weight management. But surely you two aren't suggesting that what has proven to work for you is the only way to lose weight and keep it off for everyone any more than what I have found works for me is. The original question was "to keto or not to keto". The answer differs from person to person, and I am not able to come up with an answer that fits everyone. Heck, I can't even figure out what, "agnostic of diet preference," is suppose to mean.
To be clear: The often repeated advice to eat less and exercise more, to follow the MyPlate or food pyramid guidelines, that CICO is all you have to do for long-term success, has proven to be an utter failure for many that has led to a surge in obesity and chronic diseases. Everybody is different. What works for one might not work for others. The goal is to find what works for you for the rest of your life. If that is strict Keto, fine. Its not easy to do though.
Just out of curiosity, when my previous post said . . .. . . if low carb or keto is the right "permanent, life long change" for someone to stay at a healthy weight long term, I'm cheering for them, quite sincerely.
. . . what part of that came across is my believing that what works for me will work best for everyone?
As an aside, the idea that a large fraction of people are actually following the food pyramid or MyPlate is counterfactual, according to any research I've ever seen. Having been alive and adult since before the "obesity epidemic" purportedly started, I'm more than skeptical that MyPlate, calorie counting, or the food pyramid were key triggers.
Yes, the goal is for each individual to find what works for them for the rest of life, ideally not just for weight management, but IMO also for good health and an enjoyable eating/activity routine. Yes, the question of this thread is "keto or not keto".
My view is that either path may work for an individual (plus other paths not even most meaningfully analyzed on that continuum). I'm willing to consider that I've written unclearly in posts, speaking generically . . . but I don't understand you interpreted my post as anti-keto.
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Yeah, food effects the microbiome and our hormones and each macro has a distinct effect on each, which was kind of my point. I look at CICO as a treatment for the symptom without really treating the root cause and how could it, it's just a measurement of heat. If someone is successful with CICO I'm on board and happy that it works. For me a higher protein diet where satiation was a key factor for my success and lowering highly refined carbs and starches without the need to count calories and if I needed to count calories I would have tried something else until I found what accomplished that, but I've know for over 20 years that a higher protein diet delivers satiation in spades, or at least animal protein, plant proteins didn't do the job for me personally but I would imagine it's because I'm not a growing plant and my physiology best matches the proteins found in animals, but I've never looked into it. Cheers
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Calorie counting and eating high protein (or whatever strategy you choose), these things are not mutually exclusive. Calorie counting means watching how many calories you eat. A person can still tweak their diet (if needed) to improve satiation, gut health, cardiac health etc. at the same time.
Keto works for weight loss if it results in the calorie balance being negative (CICO principle). For some it can work without calorie counting (hunger blunted enough to ensure a calorie deficit), other people will need to count calories since eating 'intuitively' with keto doesn't guarantee a calorie deficit. On top of that, the person obviously needs to enjoy a keto diet, or is just a matter of time before they give up (same goes for any way of eating).
CICO (not as a synonym of calorie counting, but to denote the calorie equation which results in weight loss, maintenance of gain) is valid, whether or not someone actually uses calorie counting as a tool or not.10 -
I'm sure you know that CICO and calorie counting are not the same thing.neanderthin wrote: »Yeah, food effects the microbiome and our hormones and each macro has a distinct effect on each, which was kind of my point. I look at CICO as a treatment for the symptom without really treating the root cause and how could it, it's just a measurement of heat. If someone is successful with CICO I'm on board and happy that it works. For me a higher protein diet where satiation was a key factor for my success and lowering highly refined carbs and starches without the need to count calories and if I needed to count calories I would have tried something else until I found what accomplished that, but I've know for over 20 years that a higher protein diet delivers satiation in spades, or at least animal protein, plant proteins didn't do the job for me personally but I would imagine it's because I'm not a growing plant and my physiology best matches the proteins found in animals, but I've never looked into it. Cheers
You managed your energy balance (CICO) via satiation and I (for a while) managed it via calorie counting.
Regarding the bolded sentence - not everyone has the same root cause.
My root cause was eating too much of a very healthy diet so calorie counting for a time to better estimate and manage my CI and CO was sufficient.
As I don't need to count calories to maintain weight it was just an interlude between maintaining overweight and maintaining at a healthy weight. Probably an atypical experience just like your diet is atypical but both your high animal protein diet and my high carb diet work for us as individuals.
Satiation is also very individual with starchy carbs being my most satiating foods (which isn't that unusual as boiled potatoes often sit at #1 in lists of most satiating foods) and meat not being particularly satiating at all.
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