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Face mask or no face mask?
Replies
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unstableunicorn wrote: »will_it_go_round_in_circles wrote: »unstableunicorn wrote: »Only wear one b/c I’ve been assaulted multiple times by other customers when trying to pick up my seizure meds and groceries. Was specifically told by my neuro NOT to wear them (even carry a medical note with me) b/c they cause me to overheat & seize, & pose a suffocation risk if i have a grand mal. Apparently covid looks the other way if you’re attacking someone for having a preexisting condition.
Can you explain what you mean by that?
If wearing a mask seriously interferes with a pre-existing condition, then by all means you should not wear one IF it's what your doctor says. IDK what kind of pre-existing condition that might be, seeing as I know people with COPD and emphysema who wear them all the time and only complain about the discomfort. I'm sure they exist, there are exceptions for every rule, and rules for every exception.
The same people who have assaulted me refuse to use sanitizer and broke distancing and even torn off their own mask to spit on me. Even gone out of their way (20+ feet down an aisle) to do so. Last time I was given a concussion and suffered a grand mal later that day as a result.
If people are assaulting you with impunity in retail stores and giving you concussions, it sounds like your area might have even larger problems than COVID-19. Where I live, which has a mask mandate, I've seen people shopping without masks and they're generally given the benefit of the doubt that they have a good reason not to wear one (I'm sure some of them DON'T, but it's likely that some of them do). That's why I think it's even more important for those of us who can wear them to wear them.
But really, if someone is going to assault you, spit on you, and give you a concussion and nobody in the area thinks that's worth addressing or reporting, the fact that they didn't sanitize their hands first is really . . . not the relevant thing.8 -
unstableunicorn wrote: »Only wear one b/c I’ve been assaulted multiple times by other customers when trying to pick up my seizure meds and groceries. Was specifically told by my neuro NOT to wear them (even carry a medical note with me) b/c they cause me to overheat & seize, & pose a suffocation risk if i have a grand mal. Apparently covid looks the other way if you’re attacking someone for having a preexisting condition.
That’s so sad. Hugs. Could you try something like this?
Don’t know if it would work for you, but I have seen people wearing them.
I’ve even seen them on sale at a grocery store.
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I'm not a scientist-- I don't know whose information I'm supposed to trust. I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but historically, in every country, drama like this goes down during every election year. Which does make me reluctant to trust any news or educated professional.
I wear a mask because I am not opinionated enough about it to go one way or another, and people seem more offended by people not wearing a mask. I do not wear it while I am out for run/walks as I live in Louisiana have trouble breathing normal hot air as it is and no one is around.1 -
unstableunicorn wrote: »will_it_go_round_in_circles wrote: »unstableunicorn wrote: »Only wear one b/c I’ve been assaulted multiple times by other customers when trying to pick up my seizure meds and groceries. Was specifically told by my neuro NOT to wear them (even carry a medical note with me) b/c they cause me to overheat & seize, & pose a suffocation risk if i have a grand mal. Apparently covid looks the other way if you’re attacking someone for having a preexisting condition.
Can you explain what you mean by that?
If wearing a mask seriously interferes with a pre-existing condition, then by all means you should not wear one IF it's what your doctor says. IDK what kind of pre-existing condition that might be, seeing as I know people with COPD and emphysema who wear them all the time and only complain about the discomfort. I'm sure they exist, there are exceptions for every rule, and rules for every exception.
The same people who have assaulted me refuse to use sanitizer and broke distancing and even torn off their own mask to spit on me. Even gone out of their way (20+ feet down an aisle) to do so. Last time I was given a concussion and suffered a grand mal later that day as a result.
Dang, I'm sorry. Covid or no, that's inexcusable human behavior.2 -
Of course I wear one. Yes, it's mandated where I am, but it's also one of the things I can do to be responsible. I want to be part of the solution, even in a small way, rather than part of the problem. Like maintaining distance, I wear a mask to protect others from any risk I may inadvertently present. And honestly, it's less difficult than wrestling myself into a sports bra.
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magnusthenerd wrote: »will_it_go_round_in_circles wrote: »unstableunicorn wrote: »Only wear one b/c I’ve been assaulted multiple times by other customers when trying to pick up my seizure meds and groceries. Was specifically told by my neuro NOT to wear them (even carry a medical note with me) b/c they cause me to overheat & seize, & pose a suffocation risk if i have a grand mal. Apparently covid looks the other way if you’re attacking someone for having a preexisting condition.
Can you explain what you mean by that?
If wearing a mask seriously interferes with a pre-existing condition, then by all means you should not wear one IF it's what your doctor says. IDK what kind of pre-existing condition that might be, seeing as I know people with COPD and emphysema who wear them all the time and only complain about the discomfort. I'm sure they exist, there are exceptions for every rule, and rules for every exception.
Kind of. If one has a condition that makes wearing a mask difficult, the store should provide reasonable accommodations to allow purchase with the person not having to enter the store, such as curbside pick up or delivery. Things like the ADA require reasonable accommodations, but putting other people at risk of pandemic infection is not a reasonable accommodation.
The whole situation should have been handled in a rather different way.
Yeah you said it better, I really struggled with that0 -
breefoshee wrote: »I'm not a scientist-- I don't know whose information I'm supposed to trust. I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but historically, in every country, drama like this goes down during every election year. Which does make me reluctant to trust any news or educated professional.
I wear a mask because I am not opinionated enough about it to go one way or another, and people seem more offended by people not wearing a mask. I do not wear it while I am out for run/walks as I live in Louisiana have trouble breathing normal hot air as it is and no one is around.
I'm forty years old and I don't remember any drama quite like THIS before any election. I'm comfortable assuming that COVID-19 is an actual thing.14 -
janejellyroll wrote: »breefoshee wrote: »I'm not a scientist-- I don't know whose information I'm supposed to trust. I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but historically, in every country, drama like this goes down during every election year. Which does make me reluctant to trust any news or educated professional.
I wear a mask because I am not opinionated enough about it to go one way or another, and people seem more offended by people not wearing a mask. I do not wear it while I am out for run/walks as I live in Louisiana have trouble breathing normal hot air as it is and no one is around.
I'm forty years old and I don't remember any drama quite like THIS before any election. I'm comfortable assuming that COVID-19 is an actual thing.
I think it is a "thing", I'm just not sure about the hype around it and whose numbers to trust. Ultimately, everyone is just choosing what they consider to be facts--but when there are "facts" on both sides, it becomes faith. Faith that your information is more accurate than the guy next to you's.
For me, it's just more of a wait and see deal. I've lived in a few different countries and a lot of the 2020 US controversies seem typical to the election seasons of other places in the world. I'm just being as safe as I can with the information I have, while waiting to see what happens next.1 -
breefoshee wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »breefoshee wrote: »I'm not a scientist-- I don't know whose information I'm supposed to trust. I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but historically, in every country, drama like this goes down during every election year. Which does make me reluctant to trust any news or educated professional.
I wear a mask because I am not opinionated enough about it to go one way or another, and people seem more offended by people not wearing a mask. I do not wear it while I am out for run/walks as I live in Louisiana have trouble breathing normal hot air as it is and no one is around.
I'm forty years old and I don't remember any drama quite like THIS before any election. I'm comfortable assuming that COVID-19 is an actual thing.
I think it is a "thing", I'm just not sure about the hype around it and whose numbers to trust. Ultimately, everyone is just choosing what they consider to be facts--but when there are "facts" on both sides, it becomes faith. Faith that your information is more accurate than the guy next to you's.
For me, it's just more of a wait and see deal. I've lived in a few different countries and a lot of the 2020 US controversies seem typical to the election seasons of other places in the world. I'm just being as safe as I can with the information I have, while waiting to see what happens next.
I don't consider it "faith" to have general confidence in the public health department of my state. That's my main source of information for my local area. Now if there was evidence that they were lying, misrepresenting, or not competent, that would be something to take into account. But a reflexive distrust of public health officials in the absence of information that they're not worthy of trust -- as of today, I don't think that's a rational decision.
During previous health issues (for example, food illness outbreaks and influenza), Minnesota public health officials have demonstrated themselves to be competent and committed to keeping the public informed. It may turn out that they've decided to take the opposite tack now and mislead the public that they have previously assisted, that for reasons that we don't now understand they want people to wear masks and limit their activities in a way that harms the economy. It may turn out that they've either deceived the governor of my state (and the mayor of my city) (or that these two are maliciously going along with a conspiracy to cause fear in their constituents). But that would be purely speculative as there is no evidence that is the case. That's the faith-based position, IMO (if we take "faith" to mean, believing something for which there is no evidence).
I can't speak to the public health officials in your state. Perhaps they have previously demonstrated that they are willing to work against the best interests of the public and it is rational to question their data and recommendations.
If it comes down to "choosing facts," I don't really see a good argument against choosing those from public health officials (given what we know today). What's the alternative?13 -
janejellyroll wrote: »breefoshee wrote: »I'm not a scientist-- I don't know whose information I'm supposed to trust. I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but historically, in every country, drama like this goes down during every election year. Which does make me reluctant to trust any news or educated professional.
I wear a mask because I am not opinionated enough about it to go one way or another, and people seem more offended by people not wearing a mask. I do not wear it while I am out for run/walks as I live in Louisiana have trouble breathing normal hot air as it is and no one is around.
I'm forty years old and I don't remember any drama quite like THIS before any election. I'm comfortable assuming that COVID-19 is an actual thing.
I can add almost 25 years to that (I'll be 65 later this year), and I'd put it more strongly: There has not been anything like this before any election within my memory, and I remember elections going back to the 1960s. (Speaking here only of the US.)
Civil rights era of early 1960s, Watergate break-ins and president resigning, 1968 Chicago political convention riots, large scale Vietnam war protests, 4 college students shot by the US National Guard, women's rights movement, oil shortage, assassinations of presidential candidate and other national leaders, stagflation, acid rain, burning rivers, 15%+ mortgage interest rates with 20% minimum downpayments, Oklahoma City bombings, 9/11, . . . I remember a lot of stuff, and it was somewhat dramatic at times. Generally, *reactions* (not events) froth up a little extra near elections, but only a little. Mostly, dramatic things happen all the time, nearly every year, election or no.
Within my memory, only 1968 comes close for controversy and devisiveness. Then, and now (IMO), the events and phenomena were real and organic (not manufactured for political reasons), and the political devisiveness had to do with how people felt the government was handling those real events, or should be handling those real events.
The somewhat widespread idea that the events (in this case, the pandemic) were pure invention, not actually happening, but manufactured just for political reasons? That's new, in my memory.17 -
janejellyroll wrote: »breefoshee wrote: »I'm not a scientist-- I don't know whose information I'm supposed to trust. I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but historically, in every country, drama like this goes down during every election year. Which does make me reluctant to trust any news or educated professional.
I wear a mask because I am not opinionated enough about it to go one way or another, and people seem more offended by people not wearing a mask. I do not wear it while I am out for run/walks as I live in Louisiana have trouble breathing normal hot air as it is and no one is around.
I'm forty years old and I don't remember any drama quite like THIS before any election. I'm comfortable assuming that COVID-19 is an actual thing.
I can add almost 25 years to that (I'll be 65 later this year), and I'd put it more strongly: There has not been anything like this before any election within my memory, and I remember elections going back to the 1960s. (Speaking here only of the US.)
Civil rights era of early 1960s, Watergate break-ins and president resigning, 1968 Chicago political convention riots, large scale Vietnam war protests, 4 college students shot by the US National Guard, women's rights movement, oil shortage, assassinations of presidential candidate and other national leaders, stagflation, acid rain, burning rivers, 15%+ mortgage interest rates with 20% minimum downpayments, Oklahoma City bombings, 9/11, . . . I remember a lot of stuff, and it was somewhat dramatic at times. Generally, *reactions* (not events) froth up a little extra near elections, but only a little. Mostly, dramatic things happen all the time, nearly every year, election or no.
Within my memory, only 1968 comes close for controversy and devisiveness. Then, and now (IMO), the events and phenomena were real and organic (not manufactured for political reasons), and the political devisiveness had to do with how people felt the government was handling those real events, or should be handling those real events.
The somewhat widespread idea that the events (in this case, the pandemic) were pure invention, not actually happening, but manufactured just for political reasons? That's new, in my memory.
Anyone else hear Billy Joel through that paragraph?
Agreed that ALL of the stuff in the news cycle today is a lot more than ever before. Maybe it wouldn't be so much if it wasn't all at once. I'm not wise enough to remember that far back, but my mother is and she agrees with you.4 -
janejellyroll wrote: »breefoshee wrote: »I'm not a scientist-- I don't know whose information I'm supposed to trust. I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but historically, in every country, drama like this goes down during every election year. Which does make me reluctant to trust any news or educated professional.
I wear a mask because I am not opinionated enough about it to go one way or another, and people seem more offended by people not wearing a mask. I do not wear it while I am out for run/walks as I live in Louisiana have trouble breathing normal hot air as it is and no one is around.
I'm forty years old and I don't remember any drama quite like THIS before any election. I'm comfortable assuming that COVID-19 is an actual thing.
I can add almost 25 years to that (I'll be 65 later this year), and I'd put it more strongly: There has not been anything like this before any election within my memory, and I remember elections going back to the 1960s. (Speaking here only of the US.)
Civil rights era of early 1960s, Watergate break-ins and president resigning, 1968 Chicago political convention riots, large scale Vietnam war protests, 4 college students shot by the US National Guard, women's rights movement, oil shortage, assassinations of presidential candidate and other national leaders, stagflation, acid rain, burning rivers, 15%+ mortgage interest rates with 20% minimum downpayments, Oklahoma City bombings, 9/11, . . . I remember a lot of stuff, and it was somewhat dramatic at times. Generally, *reactions* (not events) froth up a little extra near elections, but only a little. Mostly, dramatic things happen all the time, nearly every year, election or no.
Within my memory, only 1968 comes close for controversy and devisiveness. Then, and now (IMO), the events and phenomena were real and organic (not manufactured for political reasons), and the political devisiveness had to do with how people felt the government was handling those real events, or should be handling those real events.
The somewhat widespread idea that the events (in this case, the pandemic) were pure invention, not actually happening, but manufactured just for political reasons? That's new, in my memory.
Going to try hard to keep this politically neutral BUT even the events in recent history that may or may not have involved threats that were ginned-up or exaggerated for political reasons . . . these were either external events that were hard for the average citizen to evaluate clearly (as in, threats to US security that were external to our country) or socially based and therefore very subjective (as in, we're being told there is an internal threat to our way of life that is based on changing philosophies/minority action).
I don't know if there is any precedent for a threat that would involve things like faking numbers of critically ill/dead people within the US in many different areas. It's a level of coordination between multiple states that would be quite impressive given that we're getting serious reports from areas that are politically diverse. At this point, many of us know people IRL who have either been personally impacted by illness or are actively engaged in patient care. You can't just attribute that to the media (although the media certainly is involved in helping us understand what is happening in other areas of the country).
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@janejellyroll generally, I agree and practice that which my state implements. I do not believe that they are maliciously deceiving as much as I don't know which information they are drawing from. I confess that I am putting faith in them.
As far as local politics, I can honestly say ... no I don't trust local health officials. My boyfriend worked for years in public health trying to implement rules that would fight a huge problem in our state-- which is college binge drinking. Everyone agreed it was a huge issue-- and is why he was hired. Ultimately, he could not get anything implemented or make changes because of the politics and money the state would lose from alcohol sales.
I think that to assume there are no politics/money involved in a health crisis at all would be naive. That's not to say that YOU are naive-- I just think that it is good to stop and ask questions.
@AnnPT77 I think that it is only within the last few elections that we have had as much access to social media to have the ability to share information on such a broad scale. I think that it has made such a difference. Suddenly I can be angry about things happening in other states that I might not have known about if I weren't living in the information age.
I definitely agree that it is the reactions that froth up-- not so much the events. But there are more events as result of public outcry of other events.
These are just my thoughts. I'm open--I just am slower to pull the trigger one way or another.2 -
breefoshee wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »breefoshee wrote: »I'm not a scientist-- I don't know whose information I'm supposed to trust. I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but historically, in every country, drama like this goes down during every election year. Which does make me reluctant to trust any news or educated professional.
I wear a mask because I am not opinionated enough about it to go one way or another, and people seem more offended by people not wearing a mask. I do not wear it while I am out for run/walks as I live in Louisiana have trouble breathing normal hot air as it is and no one is around.
I'm forty years old and I don't remember any drama quite like THIS before any election. I'm comfortable assuming that COVID-19 is an actual thing.
I think it is a "thing", I'm just not sure about the hype around it and whose numbers to trust. Ultimately, everyone is just choosing what they consider to be facts--but when there are "facts" on both sides, it becomes faith. Faith that your information is more accurate than the guy next to you's.
For me, it's just more of a wait and see deal. I've lived in a few different countries and a lot of the 2020 US controversies seem typical to the election seasons of other places in the world. I'm just being as safe as I can with the information I have, while waiting to see what happens next.
I guess in the absence of an ability to follow actual scientific literature and understand the issues in any given study, what is left is looking at given rationals for something and what accounts for those opposed to it, and determine what seems most consistent.
For wearing masks, while the initial messages were muddled, the idea is wearing one prevents transmission to others. It wasn't something new with this pandemic - surgeons do so while operating, and it has been common courtesy in countries like Japan to wear a mask for people that are ill but still going out. The ability to stop something as small as a virus is understandable when one understands viruses don't just transmit through the air on their own - they replicate inside of cells and depend on existing in water droplets. You can feel that a mask captures droplets, and if the empirical observations of cloth capturing moisture isn't enough, a partial explanation why it works though a mesh is also much bigger than water molecules: it in part has to do with water is polar, binds with itself, and has a tendency to bind to surfaces.
When one holds this view, the reasons explanations for why people are disagreeing is either confusion about the purpose (how much a mask is about protecting oneself, which is only really true for N95 types), confusion because of mis-spread information, and people post hoc generating said misinformation as rationalizations against it because they have a vehement and reflexive opposition to something as simple as being required to wear a mask.
As far as I can tell, the reasons given against wearing masks are ... well vague. Claims they won't work, followed up with claims the masks will do something - it isn't clear - bad. At best, the articulation I've received is that getting people to put masks on will somehow prove the government can get people do something. Which, sure, governments do that - like they also tell people not to murder other people, but I don't think that's because governments find it a power trip to control people's murder habits.
So I guess which world makes more sense:
A. People telling others to put on mask as a power trip, and the people telling you not to wear them are deeply concerned about your freedom.
B. Masks actually work to slow transmission rates, and some people are victims of misinformation.9 -
magnusthenerd wrote: »breefoshee wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »breefoshee wrote: »I'm not a scientist-- I don't know whose information I'm supposed to trust. I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but historically, in every country, drama like this goes down during every election year. Which does make me reluctant to trust any news or educated professional.
I wear a mask because I am not opinionated enough about it to go one way or another, and people seem more offended by people not wearing a mask. I do not wear it while I am out for run/walks as I live in Louisiana have trouble breathing normal hot air as it is and no one is around.
I'm forty years old and I don't remember any drama quite like THIS before any election. I'm comfortable assuming that COVID-19 is an actual thing.
I think it is a "thing", I'm just not sure about the hype around it and whose numbers to trust. Ultimately, everyone is just choosing what they consider to be facts--but when there are "facts" on both sides, it becomes faith. Faith that your information is more accurate than the guy next to you's.
For me, it's just more of a wait and see deal. I've lived in a few different countries and a lot of the 2020 US controversies seem typical to the election seasons of other places in the world. I'm just being as safe as I can with the information I have, while waiting to see what happens next.
I guess in the absence of an ability to follow actual scientific literature and understand the issues in any given study, what is left is looking at given rationals for something and what accounts for those opposed to it, and determine what seems most consistent.
For wearing masks, while the initial messages were muddled, the idea is wearing one prevents transmission to others. It wasn't something new with this pandemic - surgeons do so while operating, and it has been common courtesy in countries like Japan to wear a mask for people that are ill but still going out. The ability to stop something as small as a virus is understandable when one understands viruses don't just transmit through the air on their own - they replicate inside of cells and depend on existing in water droplets. You can feel that a mask captures droplets, and if the empirical observations of cloth capturing moisture isn't enough, a partial explanation why it works though a mesh is also much bigger than water molecules: it in part has to do with water is polar, binds with itself, and has a tendency to bind to surfaces.
When one holds this view, the reasons explanations for why people are disagreeing is either confusion about the purpose (how much a mask is about protecting oneself, which is only really true for N95 types), confusion because of mis-spread information, and people post hoc generating said misinformation as rationalizations against it because they have a vehement and reflexive opposition to something as simple as being required to wear a mask.
As far as I can tell, the reasons given against wearing masks are ... well vague. Claims they won't work, followed up with claims the masks will do something - it isn't clear - bad. At best, the articulation I've received is that getting people to put masks on will somehow prove the government can get people do something. Which, sure, governments do that - like they also tell people not to murder other people, but I don't think that's because governments find it a power trip to control people's murder habits.
So I guess which world makes more sense:
A. People telling others to put on mask as a power trip, and the people telling you not to wear them are deeply concerned about your freedom.
B. Masks actually work to slow transmission rates, and some people are victims of misinformation.
Right, and this is why I wear my mask. I just haven't found a reason against it other than the government telling me what to do-- which they already do lol. So while I'm not 100 percent sold that COVID isn't overhyped, it doesn't really hurt me to fall in line. And if I'm wrong, it could be hurtful to others.2 -
breefoshee wrote: »magnusthenerd wrote: »breefoshee wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »breefoshee wrote: »I'm not a scientist-- I don't know whose information I'm supposed to trust. I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but historically, in every country, drama like this goes down during every election year. Which does make me reluctant to trust any news or educated professional.
I wear a mask because I am not opinionated enough about it to go one way or another, and people seem more offended by people not wearing a mask. I do not wear it while I am out for run/walks as I live in Louisiana have trouble breathing normal hot air as it is and no one is around.
I'm forty years old and I don't remember any drama quite like THIS before any election. I'm comfortable assuming that COVID-19 is an actual thing.
I think it is a "thing", I'm just not sure about the hype around it and whose numbers to trust. Ultimately, everyone is just choosing what they consider to be facts--but when there are "facts" on both sides, it becomes faith. Faith that your information is more accurate than the guy next to you's.
For me, it's just more of a wait and see deal. I've lived in a few different countries and a lot of the 2020 US controversies seem typical to the election seasons of other places in the world. I'm just being as safe as I can with the information I have, while waiting to see what happens next.
I guess in the absence of an ability to follow actual scientific literature and understand the issues in any given study, what is left is looking at given rationals for something and what accounts for those opposed to it, and determine what seems most consistent.
For wearing masks, while the initial messages were muddled, the idea is wearing one prevents transmission to others. It wasn't something new with this pandemic - surgeons do so while operating, and it has been common courtesy in countries like Japan to wear a mask for people that are ill but still going out. The ability to stop something as small as a virus is understandable when one understands viruses don't just transmit through the air on their own - they replicate inside of cells and depend on existing in water droplets. You can feel that a mask captures droplets, and if the empirical observations of cloth capturing moisture isn't enough, a partial explanation why it works though a mesh is also much bigger than water molecules: it in part has to do with water is polar, binds with itself, and has a tendency to bind to surfaces.
When one holds this view, the reasons explanations for why people are disagreeing is either confusion about the purpose (how much a mask is about protecting oneself, which is only really true for N95 types), confusion because of mis-spread information, and people post hoc generating said misinformation as rationalizations against it because they have a vehement and reflexive opposition to something as simple as being required to wear a mask.
As far as I can tell, the reasons given against wearing masks are ... well vague. Claims they won't work, followed up with claims the masks will do something - it isn't clear - bad. At best, the articulation I've received is that getting people to put masks on will somehow prove the government can get people do something. Which, sure, governments do that - like they also tell people not to murder other people, but I don't think that's because governments find it a power trip to control people's murder habits.
So I guess which world makes more sense:
A. People telling others to put on mask as a power trip, and the people telling you not to wear them are deeply concerned about your freedom.
B. Masks actually work to slow transmission rates, and some people are victims of misinformation.
Right, and this is why I wear my mask. I just haven't found a reason against it other than the government telling me what to do-- which they already do lol. So while I'm not 100 percent sold that COVID isn't overhyped, it doesn't really hurt me to fall in line. And if I'm wrong, it could be hurtful to others.
Got to a HOT COVID-19 city/state and ask for a tour of ICU units. Tell them that you think that it is all over-hyped so you need to see for yourself if people are really hooked to ventilators and probably dying.
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will_it_go_round_in_circles wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »breefoshee wrote: »I'm not a scientist-- I don't know whose information I'm supposed to trust. I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but historically, in every country, drama like this goes down during every election year. Which does make me reluctant to trust any news or educated professional.
I wear a mask because I am not opinionated enough about it to go one way or another, and people seem more offended by people not wearing a mask. I do not wear it while I am out for run/walks as I live in Louisiana have trouble breathing normal hot air as it is and no one is around.
I'm forty years old and I don't remember any drama quite like THIS before any election. I'm comfortable assuming that COVID-19 is an actual thing.
I can add almost 25 years to that (I'll be 65 later this year), and I'd put it more strongly: There has not been anything like this before any election within my memory, and I remember elections going back to the 1960s. (Speaking here only of the US.)
Civil rights era of early 1960s, Watergate break-ins and president resigning, 1968 Chicago political convention riots, large scale Vietnam war protests, 4 college students shot by the US National Guard, women's rights movement, oil shortage, assassinations of presidential candidate and other national leaders, stagflation, acid rain, burning rivers, 15%+ mortgage interest rates with 20% minimum downpayments, Oklahoma City bombings, 9/11, . . . I remember a lot of stuff, and it was somewhat dramatic at times. Generally, *reactions* (not events) froth up a little extra near elections, but only a little. Mostly, dramatic things happen all the time, nearly every year, election or no.
Within my memory, only 1968 comes close for controversy and devisiveness. Then, and now (IMO), the events and phenomena were real and organic (not manufactured for political reasons), and the political devisiveness had to do with how people felt the government was handling those real events, or should be handling those real events.
The somewhat widespread idea that the events (in this case, the pandemic) were pure invention, not actually happening, but manufactured just for political reasons? That's new, in my memory.
Anyone else hear Billy Joel through that paragraph?
Agreed that ALL of the stuff in the news cycle today is a lot more than ever before. Maybe it wouldn't be so much if it wasn't all at once. I'm not wise enough to remember that far back, but my mother is and she agrees with you.
I think I was not clear. I believe there is *not* more stuff in the world, or more stuff in the news cycle. Things get smaller in the rear-view mirror, so people tend to believe that earlier times were simpler times. I think they weren't. I think they were *different* times, mostly.janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »breefoshee wrote: »I'm not a scientist-- I don't know whose information I'm supposed to trust. I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but historically, in every country, drama like this goes down during every election year. Which does make me reluctant to trust any news or educated professional.
I wear a mask because I am not opinionated enough about it to go one way or another, and people seem more offended by people not wearing a mask. I do not wear it while I am out for run/walks as I live in Louisiana have trouble breathing normal hot air as it is and no one is around.
I'm forty years old and I don't remember any drama quite like THIS before any election. I'm comfortable assuming that COVID-19 is an actual thing.
I can add almost 25 years to that (I'll be 65 later this year), and I'd put it more strongly: There has not been anything like this before any election within my memory, and I remember elections going back to the 1960s. (Speaking here only of the US.)
Civil rights era of early 1960s, Watergate break-ins and president resigning, 1968 Chicago political convention riots, large scale Vietnam war protests, 4 college students shot by the US National Guard, women's rights movement, oil shortage, assassinations of presidential candidate and other national leaders, stagflation, acid rain, burning rivers, 15%+ mortgage interest rates with 20% minimum downpayments, Oklahoma City bombings, 9/11, . . . I remember a lot of stuff, and it was somewhat dramatic at times. Generally, *reactions* (not events) froth up a little extra near elections, but only a little. Mostly, dramatic things happen all the time, nearly every year, election or no.
Within my memory, only 1968 comes close for controversy and devisiveness. Then, and now (IMO), the events and phenomena were real and organic (not manufactured for political reasons), and the political devisiveness had to do with how people felt the government was handling those real events, or should be handling those real events.
The somewhat widespread idea that the events (in this case, the pandemic) were pure invention, not actually happening, but manufactured just for political reasons? That's new, in my memory.
Going to try hard to keep this politically neutral BUT even the events in recent history that may or may not have involved threats that were ginned-up or exaggerated for political reasons . . . these were either external events that were hard for the average citizen to evaluate clearly (as in, threats to US security that were external to our country) or socially based and therefore very subjective (as in, we're being told there is an internal threat to our way of life that is based on changing philosophies/minority action).
I don't know if there is any precedent for a threat that would involve things like faking numbers of critically ill/dead people within the US in many different areas. It's a level of coordination between multiple states that would be quite impressive given that we're getting serious reports from areas that are politically diverse. At this point, many of us know people IRL who have either been personally impacted by illness or are actively engaged in patient care. You can't just attribute that to the media (although the media certainly is involved in helping us understand what is happening in other areas of the country).
Again, not sure I was clear (and I, too, am trying not to be political, in the sense of partisan, at least).
My intent wasn't to attribute anything to the media particularly.
Personally, I think humans are pretty terrible at maintaining large-scale conspiracies. They're not that great at conspiring even out in the open (OPEC?), let alone keeping the conspiracy secret besides. The more people who'd need to be in on the conspiracy to make it work, the more improbable it is IMO that there is any conspiracy.
If the pandemic were fake, how many people would need to be complicit in it, for that to work as a conspiracy? Tens of thousands, worldwide, many without a language in common. As you say, thousands of public health officials who've seemed to care about and act in support of our health in the past would need to be complicit. Hospitals, doctors, nurses, including some who are our personal friends and acquaintenances. Funeral homes. Nursing home administrators. We're reading first-hand comments here on MFP about the pandemic from Jordan, Italy, France, Australia, and more. Are those all fake? Seems doubtful.
If anything, I think it's harder to keep actual conspiracies under wraps, in the modern era.breefoshee wrote: »
@AnnPT77 I think that it is only within the last few elections that we have had as much access to social media to have the ability to share information on such a broad scale. I think that it has made such a difference. Suddenly I can be angry about things happening in other states that I might not have known about if I weren't living in the information age.
I definitely agree that it is the reactions that froth up-- not so much the events. But there are more events as result of public outcry of other events.
These are just my thoughts. I'm open--I just am slower to pull the trigger one way or another.
I don't agree that social media is all that novel, in that particular way, though it does vary the details a bit, and the speed of transmission of both information and misinformation.
I particularly disagree with the bolded. For just one example, people in the US North were riled about events in the US South in the early 1960s to the point of going there in buses that were (sometimes) then literally set on fire on account of the controversy.3 -
I think I need to step back from this subthread. It's too difficult trying to keep things clear, and at the same time be generalized enough to minimize being politically controversial. Apologies for starting down this road.13
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breefoshee wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »breefoshee wrote: »I'm not a scientist-- I don't know whose information I'm supposed to trust. I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but historically, in every country, drama like this goes down during every election year. Which does make me reluctant to trust any news or educated professional.
I wear a mask because I am not opinionated enough about it to go one way or another, and people seem more offended by people not wearing a mask. I do not wear it while I am out for run/walks as I live in Louisiana have trouble breathing normal hot air as it is and no one is around.
I'm forty years old and I don't remember any drama quite like THIS before any election. I'm comfortable assuming that COVID-19 is an actual thing.
I think it is a "thing", I'm just not sure about the hype around it and whose numbers to trust. Ultimately, everyone is just choosing what they consider to be facts--but when there are "facts" on both sides, it becomes faith. Faith that your information is more accurate than the guy next to you's.
"Facts" on both sides? Death is death. The death count is real. Frankly, I trust scientists and doctors -- including coroners -- far more than anybody else speaking out right now. And they all say this disease is serious and real. I don't see how any reasoning adult could dismiss their words.
13 -
You know, I don’t care what country you are in, I don’t care your politics, all I can do is plead with everyone to please do your part.
I have been very quiet on these forums for the past couple of months because I am coping with an ill mother in Scotland while I am on the west coast of Canada.
I, for the past few months, am spending every afternoon on the phone getting her to eat her dinner, go to the toilet, getting enough liquids, getting her ready then walking her to bed.
I am (literally) crying as I post, which isn’t me at all, but I have a very sick 93yo mother that has today had to have an ambulance come take her to hospital and is now sat in a hospital bed wondering what is happening.
I can’t be there.
Please wear a mask, socially distance, and stay home.
I so desperately need to be Scotland and I can’t.
In a bit of rational thought, this may not have been the place to post, I’m really really upset right now, but every one can and should do what they can to mitigate the effects of COVID 19 in their community and world wide.
Again apologies for the heart break response.
Normally, cheers, h.
Today, heather.
NB. I am 75 post behind so may be beyond the threads scope by now.34 -
@middlehaitch
My heart aches for you Heather. It must be very hard to be away from a love one in dire health situation. That is my fear right now, that my husband or I get COVID and that we can not be together holding hands comforting each other, or God for bit taking the last breath alone. And I feel the same about all the people with love ones suffering in a hospital bed or dying alone. And that is why I get so angry when I read about the irresponsibility and lack of empathy from some people.
Your mom is a tough lady, so let's pray and hope that she gets the care that she needs and recuperates soon. Hopefully you will be able to fly to Scotland soon and spend time with her and your family. Best of luck Heather.
Hugs, Gisel
4 -
Thanks @Gisel2015, the awful thing is non of this is COVID 19 related, it is just I can’t travel there because of COVID 19.
💗, h.
(I do keep up with your life).7 -
I wore a disposable mask from work when I was in my elderly father's home for an extended period of time to set up his new TV, back in March. Since I've been at work all along, I didn't want to risk contaminating him if I'd been infected at the office. He wouldn't survive Covid.
I stick to shopping in big spacious stores where I can easily distance from others. I started wearing a mask in stores when I ended up in a queue 18" away from an annoying fellow who told me to F*** off when I asked him to move away a few feet. I can control me but I can't control others.
Now we have a mask mandate in all enclosed public spaces anyway, and I'm sure annoying fellow is even more thrilled about that.
2 -
breefoshee wrote: »I'm not a scientist-- I don't know whose information I'm supposed to trust. I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but historically, in every country, drama like this goes down during every election year. Which does make me reluctant to trust any news or educated professional.
I wear a mask because I am not opinionated enough about it to go one way or another, and people seem more offended by people not wearing a mask. I do not wear it while I am out for run/walks as I live in Louisiana have trouble breathing normal hot air as it is and no one is around.
One way to think about it is to realize that the world is not just the US. I don't live in the US and we have mask drama for different reasons and for different kinds of conspiracy theories (they opened a new surgical mask factory and want our money, they say). People just can't accept that life has changed and it's less painful for them to cook up theories and reasons than to cope with the change. That video in Australia can't be happening because of US elections, can it? The attack on the French bus driver because the passenger refused to wear a face mask? It's a global issue, not a US issue.10 -
I can’t help but think those who believe this is some kind of political plot are lucky, as it must mean you haven’t seen first hand the impact of the virus. One of my friends was in intensive care for 5 days and one of my husband’s close colleagues died from it. I only wish it was made up or exaggerated.13
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amusedmonkey wrote: »breefoshee wrote: »I'm not a scientist-- I don't know whose information I'm supposed to trust. I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but historically, in every country, drama like this goes down during every election year. Which does make me reluctant to trust any news or educated professional.
I wear a mask because I am not opinionated enough about it to go one way or another, and people seem more offended by people not wearing a mask. I do not wear it while I am out for run/walks as I live in Louisiana have trouble breathing normal hot air as it is and no one is around.
One way to think about it is to realize that the world is not just the US. I don't live in the US and we have mask drama for different reasons and for different kinds of conspiracy theories (they opened a new surgical mask factory and want our money, they say). People just can't accept that life has changed and it's less painful for them to cook up theories and reasons than to cope with the change. That video in Australia can't be happening because of US elections, can it? The attack on the French bus driver because the passenger refused to wear a face mask? It's a global issue, not a US issue.
I live in the US, and sometimes I just want to say, "Holy Cover-Up, Batman ... the Democrats are fooling the whole world with this coronavirus stuff, but you're cracking the case on facebook!"8 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »breefoshee wrote: »I'm not a scientist-- I don't know whose information I'm supposed to trust. I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but historically, in every country, drama like this goes down during every election year. Which does make me reluctant to trust any news or educated professional.
I wear a mask because I am not opinionated enough about it to go one way or another, and people seem more offended by people not wearing a mask. I do not wear it while I am out for run/walks as I live in Louisiana have trouble breathing normal hot air as it is and no one is around.
One way to think about it is to realize that the world is not just the US. I don't live in the US and we have mask drama for different reasons and for different kinds of conspiracy theories (they opened a new surgical mask factory and want our money, they say). People just can't accept that life has changed and it's less painful for them to cook up theories and reasons than to cope with the change. That video in Australia can't be happening because of US elections, can it? The attack on the French bus driver because the passenger refused to wear a face mask? It's a global issue, not a US issue.
A really good point -- thanks for posting it.
I read this morning on CNN that more than four million Americans have been infected with COVID-19 and more than 147,000 have died from the disease (Johns Hopkins University Data). That's reason enough to wear a mask when we run into the grocery store or talk to other people for a few minutes.
3 -
I happily wear them where they are mandated (in the uk/England, so shops, takeouts etc) as these areas are likely to bring people into close contact with little ventilation. However where it is not required, I will not wear one.
The main reason I won’t wear one at all times is because I don’t want this to become the new norm. Facial expressions are a key part of non verbal communication and it’s not a world I wish my son to grow up becoming accustomed to2 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »breefoshee wrote: »I'm not a scientist-- I don't know whose information I'm supposed to trust. I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but historically, in every country, drama like this goes down during every election year. Which does make me reluctant to trust any news or educated professional.
I wear a mask because I am not opinionated enough about it to go one way or another, and people seem more offended by people not wearing a mask. I do not wear it while I am out for run/walks as I live in Louisiana have trouble breathing normal hot air as it is and no one is around.
One way to think about it is to realize that the world is not just the US. I don't live in the US and we have mask drama for different reasons and for different kinds of conspiracy theories (they opened a new surgical mask factory and want our money, they say). People just can't accept that life has changed and it's less painful for them to cook up theories and reasons than to cope with the change. That video in Australia can't be happening because of US elections, can it? The attack on the French bus driver because the passenger refused to wear a face mask? It's a global issue, not a US issue.
John Oliver had a segment about this. People's brains are weird and associate huge events with huge causes, so the idea that something world-shattering is "just" because of some flu virus doesn't compute that easily in our heads and people look for bigger causes like conspiracies instead.4 -
FitterFifteen wrote: »I happily wear them where they are mandated (in the uk/England, so shops, takeouts etc) as these areas are likely to bring people into close contact with little ventilation. However where it is not required, I will not wear one.
The main reason I won’t wear one at all times is because I don’t want this to become the new norm. Facial expressions are a key part of non verbal communication and it’s not a world I wish my son to grow up becoming accustomed to
I pray your son gets to grow up healthy. Many children and young people will not be that lucky; either dying prematurely or suffering health changing struggles through out their lives.
I see wearing masks as a temporary life change to promote quicker recovery until the world catches up with Covid, learns more about it and can cope with it. Yes, we all want this over and done with now, yesterday but for that to happen, we all need to come together to move forward.
Hugs and best wishes to everyone here.11
This discussion has been closed.
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