Keto and Fasting has been amazing thus far.

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  • Poobah1972
    Poobah1972 Posts: 943 Member
    Just an fyi, I made my Food Diary public in case anyone was interested in what I was eating. :smile:
  • Poobah1972
    Poobah1972 Posts: 943 Member
    Nobody here was against Low carbing - if that is a WOE that suits you

    and of course if you are very overweight anything that reduces that is a good thing

    Extrapolating from that to fasting for 48 to 60 hours is the issue.

    But you have made up your mind - so be it.

    I hear yeah... Generally, fasts will only be 36 hours. I did the 48 hours once.... And I'm not so sure I'll be doing a 60 hour, That I haven't made my mind up on yet and you never know what might happen between now and when I actually have an opportunity to try it. Maybe the idea, won't seem so exciting by then? Hmmmm, we shall see.
  • Poobah1972
    Poobah1972 Posts: 943 Member
    lemurcat2 wrote: »
    Out of curiosity, what is it that seems exciting about a 60 hour fast? Are you reading stuff that suggests it will be some mindblowing experience or is it because it seems like a feat or what? I'm just curious. (I don't think fasting for essentially two full days will hurt you, although I would be really careful and read about how you should refeed, since I think that can be the most risky part. It just seems pointless and unpleasant to me.)

    Good Morning Lemurcar2... Hope your Tuesday is going well.

    I've read a bunch of stuff from all sorts of people... I will say I'm a Gemini, and true to my Sign, I am a Devil's advocate at heart, always seeing both sides of the story, and to a great extent understanding both sides (i was often the judge and mediator of other peoples problems growing up, not by choice but because people tended to trust me advice). Truth always lies on spectrum, Like Light and Dark, Hate and love and good and evil (if either truly exist). Ego often prevents us from recognizing our own truths or lack there of, or being able to see clearly the point of view of others.

    Yes, you do see many people out there that report fasting for 30 days or even more, however I do have to wonder what is the actual point? Why subject oneself to multiple long fasts per year? One particular gentlemen, talks of fasting for an extended time lines, and preparing for a marathon... Then upon completion of his fast he would eat all you can eat at Taco Bell? (apparently he claims he doesn't need to heed the refeeding guidelines as apparently for him he's so use to long term fasts, his body has adjusted). This all seems pointless in multiple respects? how is it that he's gaining 30-50 pounds that he would be able to fast for 30 or more days so many times a year? And gorging at Taco Bell in calibration of a successful fast? I'm sure he had his reasons, but I'm not sure they have anything to do with healthy approach to life in general? While he seems to have will power to command, perhaps it's the challenge and the ability to say he did it that motivates him more then the weight loss in the first place? Wouldn't will power be better put to use by first losing the weight then maintaining so such drastic measures aren't needed again in the future? I do not aspire to partake in a prolonged fast, I enjoy eating and cooking not only for me, but for my family.

    I will admit I have read the entire paper in its entirety on the Gentlemen that did fast for over a year, and i will add that the document itself is valuable from the point of view of general safety and overall proof that our bodies to great extent are designed to be able to do this. While the particulars are getting a little foggy, (it's been a few years since I read it) the gentlemen at first was under pretty constant Dr. Supervision, but as time went on he actually walked to the clinic whether it was once a week or longer I don't remember. They constantly monitored his blood work, and there wasn't really problems that required response until the fast amount of his weight was already consumed. His muscle mass certainly declined, but as I had mentioned above, going from 400-500 pounds to normal weight you really should lose muscle mass as you just don't need the same amount. And his heart health improved. So none of this to say, this is what I aspire too, I only take it antidotal evidence that fasts such as the ones I'm partaking in are far from dangerous as some would think.

    The stories I enjoyed the most and offered the most encouragement was found on a few different sites, but It had a wide range of people and many couples... Both of these sites featured people that were performing some form of IF, whether it was OMAD, windowed or fasting 1 or even 2 days a week. I didn't dive into the weeds, but just enjoyed what they had to say about their particular journeys. Many of these people were also low carbing. Coming from a history of successful weight loss (granted I gained it all back when I made some poor life decisions), I already know how successful I can be doing low carb and how easy it is for me to still enjoy what I eat, lose weight, and not feel like I'm constantly starving while I'm doing it. Also being so large and putting a fairly extensive amount of research into what I've done over the years, I tend to think I understand my body and what is safe compared to some good intentioned people that really don't have a clue what it is to be this large, nor likely didn't have the personal stake in anything they may have read involving such large people, that they probably couldn't understand or retain said information as a person might who does have a personal stake in doing so. Not to say I don't appreciate everyone's comments, because to comment is to at least care at some level.

    So why did i state I was excited for my first opportunity to fast for 60 hours? (Putting my Ego aside), when i wrote that I just undertook my first few fasts and finally got up the courage to write about it.... It was early days (still is), I had slayed my nemesis, and I did so handily. Never in all my life, did I realize that it would be so easy to do such a thing as "Not Eat" for day. And all the time, doing it without any discomfort, or hardly any real hunger. I was like a child with his brand new bicycle. I felt that needed to let people know, as before that moment, I really didn't understand what it was actually going to feel like, and neither did my fiancé who equally slayed her nemesis. It was and still is an exciting time for us. But I will be honest, I'm not as excited as I initially was about the potential of a 60 hour fast on our horizon. Such is life, you start something new, you approach it with a fresh face and lots of hope and energy, as time goes on emotions balance with reality and you come into balance. I'm really on the fence at this point. A 36 hour fast is really a piece of cake for us, and I kind of like having my Sundays so open Time wise to do whatever else we want.... But 60 hours will likely grow old really, so yeah not so sure about that one.

    Cheers!
  • Poobah1972
    Poobah1972 Posts: 943 Member
    edited February 2021
    I mean't to include a bit about refeeding after a fast in my above post...

    I will say this, while my fasts have been of a shorter variety... It is worth noting, that within 1.5-3 hours of eating I do experience a very short bout of a liquid diarrhea. Like short as in, sit down and done (not hold onto your seat, wide eyed terror or anything extreme like that). At that point the rest of the week progresses as normal with typical movements occurring every day or every other day. It's like food hit's my stomach and my entire system gets a bit of a flush, probably has something to do with a little excess stomach/bowel fluids being produced and little to slow it down between my stomach and ejection point as my digestive system comes fully online? But that is pure speculation. I don't believe any special refeeding guidelines during my particular fast periods are needed, specially since I'm only eating 350-500 calories max at my initial re-feeding.

    I would say the longer you go the more important food selection would become.
  • lemurcat2
    lemurcat2 Posts: 7,885 Member
    Poobah1972 wrote: »
    Good day everyone!

    I reckon I'll get a bunch more Disagrees bringing this thread back up. But I thought it was worthwhile to up date anyone that was interested in our progress and KETO and Fasting in general.

    Seems like you are having fun with it, and if you like the food you are eating, that's great. Personally, for me, I don't see the appeal at all of taking a day off food weekly (I will do it for religious reasons, but I would find it problematic to exercise on a no food day, but even beyond that I just wouldn't like it). But I do get the not having to think about food as often thing (it's one reason I currently enjoy eating just 2 meals/TRE). I would hope that you aren't using it as an excuse to go too low on overall cals, but I understand that when you have a lot to lose faster weight loss can be okay.

    Anyway, that I wouldn't like it as a regular thing doesn't mean you shouldn't (and I didn't disagree) -- a friend of mine maintains doing 5/2, which I think I would find very difficult, but for her it's great (she only ever lost vanity weight and doesn't count on the 5 days, only the 2 low cal ones).
  • Poobah1972
    Poobah1972 Posts: 943 Member
    edited April 2021
    @jogman Thank you for your encouraging comments... It is appreciated Sir!

    @ lemurcat2 Yeah, it really has been a very interesting and good time thus far. Learned lots and continue to learn. Religious or otherwise, I think it's a very natural part of being a human being for most of our existence, thus a good part why the entire multifueled system developed in us as it is today. (this makes sense in my head). Also, my weekly weight loss does not exceed 1% and I am being totally truthful, when I stated I'm 100% satiated day in day out (With minor exceptions on Sunday of course). Blood monitoring suggests I have likely fully fat adapted as well, and am well capable of producing all my required calories on fasting days, backed up by energy levels, mood etc. I really think I'm doing this safely, and in a healthy way. Granted my average is as @ WeatherJane suggested less then 1600 with the fast in effect.

    To counter that I do eat a high proportion of good foods, Berries, Nuts, Fiber, Flax, every single week day... and veggies/salad at least once if not twice daily. I believe I am getting a solid amount of nutrients for the food I eat. As for a Doctor, I don't have a doctor, but as stated in my last post I did see one recently and he seems all for it. Blood work is coming up, and It will be interesting to see.

    Again, if my previous posts weren't read... I very much intend to raise calories as my body dictates I should. I suspect this will happen with the addition of exercise, and also with reaching the sub 300lb mark, where I foresee my bodies ability to pull requirements from fat reserves will begin to diminish.

    I put a lot of work into this... And I do have the long game in mind. :)
  • Poobah1972
    Poobah1972 Posts: 943 Member
    edited April 2021
    Meant to also mention, I find it interesting that there definitely seems to be somewhat of a double standard(probably not the best term) in the way IF windowed approach is generally widely accepted... As long as you don't go over the 18 to 24 hour maximum fasting window. Yet if I essentially go to sleep for 8 more hours, it tends to rile up a considerable amount of people. (not that I'm suggesting any of the last posters feel that way... Just in general)

    I should also note, some would say once fully fat adapted exercise is actually quite good... even when fasted. Granted you will always have more overall strength on a non keto diet... Glycogen loaded muscle is just going to be better in part due to the inflated cells and better leverage due to internal muscle pressure etc. And There is nothing wrong with Glycogen.. (I'm not a hater)
  • psuLemon
    psuLemon Posts: 38,426 MFP Moderator
    Poobah1972 wrote: »
    Good day everyone!

    I reckon I'll get a bunch more Disagrees bringing this thread back up. But I thought it was worthwhile to up date anyone that was interested in our progress and KETO and Fasting in general..

    My fiancé and I have now successfully fasted for 11 straight Sundays. We continue to be fully committed to the Keto Life style, and invest much time, thought and research into making this WOE a forever reality (Granted fasting will not be). We are still as excited now as we were when we started, except Sundays have become old hat and just a regular Sunday. We love the food we eat, and continue to be 100% satiated 6 days of the week, and Sundays, just the odd occasion of stomach gurgles etc, that water easily remedies. Energy levels remain high every week 7 days a week, and mood is great, sleep is great... Though we do have the habit of waking up a bit early on Monday morning excited to get the day started (and eat of course).

    I did make the decision along the way that I love eating, cooking and baking... And I've decided that I have no interest in attempting a longer fast. And that's that. Sunday just works for us, it's like a day off in the kitchen, it's enjoyable... And come Monday morning, we simply enjoy eating. On the other side of the equation I now know IF, OMAD (windowed approaches) wouldn't fit within our lifestyles. What works is what's important for anyone I believe.

    I've started maintaining a couple spreadsheets... One that tracks my blood glucoses, ketones and GKI as well as all other key macro's and total calorie intake. This has proven very useful in clearly indicating my blood glucose and GKI have been steadily improving from the very beginning. This morning in fact hitting all time new records.

    Blood Ketones - 2.7
    Blood Glucose - 83 (New Record) (by something like 15 points)
    GKI - 1.71 (New Record)

    This has been a very steady reminder of progress, and I have also been able to see how slight adjustments to macro directly affect those reading. For instance I recently decided to stop having a pudding with 7 grams of carb 5 days a week, and I replaced it with 6-12 grams of Coconut fat as part of my breakfast... The immediate effect of which has raised ketone levels and reduced Glucose levels. I also believed by making that adjustment, it would raise my fat percentage to protein, along with the input of MTC oils, my body would likely require less protein to glucose conversion in light of increased ketone production. This was an effort to reduce uric acid in my blood, and flare ups of gout. The numbers seem to show that this conclusion is a sound one... As Ketones and glucose levels both immediately improved. Basically this move also put me more in line with a stricter Keto profile. Yet we still eat like kings and I average 25 grams of fiber daily, sometimes more sometimes less. Big thanks in part to the keto bread doe recipe we use daily in many fashions.

    So yeah, I had 2 flare ups of gout... Very mild ones, that didn't lay me out... But still I needed to do something. I also saw a doctor, got a prescription and am getting a complete blood work up done in about a months time as to allow the prescription and my uric levels to stabilize. Bare in mind I've had issues with gout on occasion going all the way back to my 20's. But certainly more so when I'm losing weight, and more so again when eating KETO. But i do believe paying attention to what you eat and maintaining a proper fat (specially the input of Healthy fats high in MTC) to protein ratio does work to help this issue.

    I've also started a spreadsheet that precisely monitors my daily changing TDEE based on my new weight every day and my new age and the Calories i eat each day. The accuracy to actual readings thus far as been amazing. It also calculates among other things weight loss % per week on a daily basis. Some may be interested to know that I have not exceeded 1% of body weight loss per week some know it as a "Golden Rule". With exception of the one week period that included the 1 and only fast I extended to 48 hours. Currently I am losing 4.16 pounds per week, Started higher then that and by the end of the year calculations show a drop to around 2.81 or so and I just might reach the 300 pound plateau by years end.

    My fiancé at 4'7" is doing equally well albeit vastly different numbers then I, but I have to say she loves the fasting even more then I, as the smaller you are and the smaller your calorie headroom the greater % boost to overall weight loss fast day becomes. For instance I loose about 0.5 pounds 6 days a week and 1 pound on Sundays (So Sundays basically counts as 2 days of normal weight loss). For Lynn it's more like 4 days in one.

    At the moment though I'm still trucking along at 420+ pounds plus (Down something over 60lb), and hope to break the 400 pounds plateau by around the end of May. My next weigh in is in 2 weeks from today. :)

    Happy to answer any questions if anyone is interested. My diary is also open to the public.

    Thanks everyone!

    Can you expand on the protein to glucose conversion? I am not sure i understand your view point or "benefit". I assume you aare talking gluconeogenesis.
  • lemurcat2
    lemurcat2 Posts: 7,885 Member
    Poobah1972 wrote: »
    Meant to also mention, I find it interesting that there definitely seems to be somewhat of a double standard(probably not the best term) in the way IF windowed approach is generally widely accepted... As long as you don't go over the 18 to 24 hour maximum fasting window. Yet if I essentially go to sleep for 8 more hours, it tends to rile up a considerable amount of people. (not that I'm suggesting any of the last posters feel that way... Just in general)

    I wasn't meaning to suggest that (just in case you did think maybe I did), and I don't find a 36 (or whatever) hr fast to be unhealthy in someone who doesn't respond to it badly. I just don't prefer it.
    I should also note, some would say once fully fat adapted exercise is actually quite good... even when fasted. Granted you will always have more overall strength on a non keto diet... Glycogen loaded muscle is just going to be better in part due to the inflated cells and better leverage due to internal muscle pressure etc. And There is nothing wrong with Glycogen.. (I'm not a hater)

    I don't think it's so hard as all that to be fat adapted as most of us should be good at using fat as energy already when exercising moderately (i.e., not super hard), but I also agree one can improve one's capacity -- I did a running training plan for a while that was intended to improve on that some by adding in fasted runs and so on (this was not otherwise a plan that recommended low carb, but I wasn't following the utrition plan). I also agree that non keto is usually better for optimal performance (I feel a boost from more carbs w/in individual workouts and I'm not even super low carb, but it doesn't matter for my purposes, and in fact training fasted can be useful in some ways for me, and -- the main point -- prevents any stomach issues when running). I also exercise fasted (as in before I eat that day) most of the time these days, but I do think it can be limiting for some, and I don't really like (again, for me) not being able to do a refeed after (or not to be fancy, just having a meal). I did a casual bike ride for about 60 mins on Good Friday (when I generally do a complete fast day), but I wouldn't have wanted to do anything that involved pushing it (which probably means running or weights or a harder or much longer ride, for me), as I would be concerned it would affect recovery. Of course, if one desires one can fit in the fast on a rest day or something, and maybe others don't feel the same way, it's just something that I find helps. (I only started doing TRE, and not eating until early afternoon when I could push my workout up to noon. I don't like doing anything hard and then waiting hours to eat, which is why when I was in the office every day and worked out early in the morning I'd eat breakfast after. Again, this is my personal preference, not something I am claiming everyone must do.)

    Random thoughts about eating and workouts, again not claiming any particular way is best.
  • FitRican
    FitRican Posts: 98 Member
    edited April 2021
    Poobah1972 , good for you both. If it is working for you enjoy it! Low carb diet with fasting is a healthy way of life. I have been in low carb diet for years. I do IF 2-3 weeks and do HST training. I love KETO diet too, love the roasted pork, filet mignon, shrimp, cheese, butter. I'd rather use fat as energy than sugar. Best Wishes!
  • lemurcat2
    lemurcat2 Posts: 7,885 Member
    Great progress!
  • PAV8888
    PAV8888 Posts: 14,227 Member
    Keep going *and adjusting* like the Energizer Bunny you can be‼️
  • Poobah1972
    Poobah1972 Posts: 943 Member
    edited July 2021
    Forgot some tidbits some might find useful.

    I Had 2 blood tests performed since my last update...

    My cholesterol, LDL and HDL are all at "Optimal Levels", and my Cardio Vascular Risk is considered "LOW" (they won't test me again on this its that good.)

    I am not pre-Diabetic. My AC1 is 5.1 (They now refuse to even test me on that further... for at least a year .lol)

    B12, Ferriten, Salt, Potassium etc are all smack dab in the middle of Normal range. As most everything else. I no longer have cramping issues since taking a keto Electrolyte high in potassium, zinc and magnesium.

    My Hemoglobin is borderline low normal which is interesting, as the doc says a Male on Keto should have higher readings but it's fine.

    Kidney and liver function appears to be healthy.

    Basically I'm as healthy as an ox.. And there really is no need to do another blood test for a year or so.

    The only thing is my uric acid levels were very high, and gout was definitely an issue.. But I immediately got a allopurinol prescription then had the first blood test, which precipitated getting a higher dose of alopurinol. At 200mg my uric acid is borderline high. But I'm no longer getting flare ups. Gout and weight loss for me as always ended up in gout more so on Keto of course.

    I reckon, as I get closer and closer to normal weight, my uric acid levels will drop, and eventually I won't even need the Allopurinol anymore. At least that's my theory.

    :smiley:
  • Poobah1972
    Poobah1972 Posts: 943 Member
    edited July 2021
    lemurcat2 wrote: »
    Great progress!

    Thank you Lemurcat2 :) It's been a great journey. I make daily updates for a quite sometime in the Fat 2 Fit group, but I've really been living on the live news feeds. Just a happy atmosphere you know. :)
  • paperpudding
    paperpudding Posts: 9,271 Member
    well done.

    great progress both of you. :)

  • sarah7591
    sarah7591 Posts: 415 Member
    Wow! What an amazing journey. You are the real deal!!!! Congratulations and keep posting updates!
  • psuLemon
    psuLemon Posts: 38,426 MFP Moderator
    Congrats man. Keep it up
  • Poobah1972
    Poobah1972 Posts: 943 Member
    @psuLemon @sarah7591 @paperpudding

    Thank you much!

    My resting heart rate is judged to be at 69 according to Fitbit, significantly lower then the 78-79 when i started walking in April. I don't even know what it was prior to that, good chance I was in the 80's. 👍
  • penguinmama87
    penguinmama87 Posts: 1,155 Member
    Wooo you're doing great!!! :smiley:
  • lorib642
    lorib642 Posts: 1,942 Member
    Poobah1972 wrote: »
    @psuLemon @sarah7591 @paperpudding

    Thank you much!

    My resting heart rate is judged to be at 69 according to Fitbit, significantly lower then the 78-79 when i started walking in April. I don't even know what it was prior to that, good chance I was in the 80's. 👍

    Hi. I have been doing keto since Feb and am going to start IF 16:8 this week. I am slowly eating later each day. I am also going to cut back on the fat I eat. I am losing but still have a lot of abdominal fat. I do have diabetes and my glucose is much better.

    How far do you walk and do you think that is the main thing that helped with HR? My resting is in 80s but it goes higher during the day. I feel fine. I walk about 30 min/day but it is a stroll with my dog who has to sniff everything.