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Keto and Fasting has been amazing thus far.

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  • JthanmyfitnesspalJthanmyfitnesspal Member, Premium Posts: 2,658 Member Member, Premium Posts: 2,658 Member
    Poobah1972 wrote: »

    Good Morning Sarah,

    [...]

    But so far... We truly have been feeling like a million bucks.

    Well, OK, I will not contradict your own experience. I definitely experience reduced activity on fasted days. (Definitely not a day to do a 25 mile bike ride, for example.)

    But, who's Sarah?
  • Poobah1972Poobah1972 Member, Premium Posts: 101 Member Member, Premium Posts: 101 Member
    Well, OK, I will not contradict your own experience. I definitely experience reduced activity on fasted days. (Definitely not a day to do a 25 mile bike ride, for example.)

    But, who's Sarah?

    Oopsie... That was the person that posted above you. I must have made a quoting Woopsie. Pardon moi. :)

    And Yes I bet anyone like you who is up to biking 25 miles or going for a run etc and so forth would indeed experience fatigue in comparison to a regular day. However I'm not that guy... Lol. I want to be that guy, and hope to be that guy. But right now neither I or my Fiance are up to those fitness levels where it plays a factor in our day. I'm sure it will come though, sooner or later.
    edited February 18
  • kshama2001kshama2001 Member Posts: 23,470 Member Member Posts: 23,470 Member
    psuLemon wrote: »
    So let's be a little frank, the human body is terrible at telling you something unlike it's highly broken. So unless you are getting frequently dexa scan, metabolic panels, etc... You won't know many things like, are you losing muscle, are you developing vitamin or mineral deficiencies, etc.. another example, how many people have you known who didn't know they had cancer until it was too late?

    I enjoy Keto. For some it's extremely good at blunting hunger... Some a little too much. While I do clean keto, it's very easy for me to go extended periods without food. So that is a huge positive.

    But, there are a lot of negatives to Keto and that is even more exaggerated with IF. The two biggest is reduced ability to sustain muscle (carbs are anti-catabolic and protein sparring) and carbs significantly help with gym performance. Fasting is catabolic... That is just a fact. Combining fasting, especially long periods, and keto will increase the likelihood of muscle loss. Muscle loss will lead to a slower metabolic rate. Now, i know the argument that Fung and people like Thomas Delauer make... Fasting increases HGH. Well yea, it's true. But hgh doesn't increase muscle mass, even if a person is injected with super physiological doses. When injected with HGH, you would see an increase in lbm from increases in total body water and improved connective tissue. HGH does serve a second function.. and that is mobilizing fuel substrates. The transient increse in HGH is to metabolize fatty acids.

    I think it's awesome that you are enjoying this, but understand if it's going to support long term goals. I run keto for periods of cutting and then add carbs in hopes of preserving or building muscle. If your goal is lean and defined, keto and IF will likely work against that. It's something to consider.

    Yes, I didn't know my anemia was way out of control until my ferritin was 1.7, which is Go Directly to the Emergency Room for a Blood Transfusion low.

    I had noticed some fatigue and asked to get my iron levels tested, but had no idea things were as bad as they were.
  • PsychgrrlPsychgrrl Member Posts: 3,023 Member Member Posts: 3,023 Member
    Yes, and calcium, vitamin D, B vitamins. Ketones and perceptions of energy levels are not the most accurate measures of health. And as Lemon said, preserving muscle mass is really important to overall metabolic health.

    The first few weeks of any weight loss plan can have a euphoric placebo effect. And I hope it lasts.

    Keri being a successful way of eating is one thing—for some people it does work. Just like other ways of eating. Just be careful in buying into the pseudo (and discredited) “science” Fung and others are spouting. They won’t necessarily steer you into health, just weight loss (possibly).
  • skinnyjingbbskinnyjingbb Member Posts: 127 Member Member Posts: 127 Member
    Good for your and your partner. Unfornately, still so many people on MPL cling to the old ideas of fat is bad and fasting is going to cause you over eat. Don't mind them, you are doing great.
    I am un the same course, for now I only do intermittent fasting by eating one meal a day, but I want to try longer fast in the future too.

  • Poobah1972Poobah1972 Member, Premium Posts: 101 Member Member, Premium Posts: 101 Member
    I appreciate everyone's comments... And I'm 100% positive everyone intentions are good. I'm on my 4th Sunday fast as we speak. The lockdown in my area just recently ended yesterday, and we had our children and better halves over along with a Grand kids yesterday.

    I baked them a fresh loaf of Non-low carb bread... and a turkey with all the fixings. Everyone except my fiance and I enjoyed chocolate cake, and we had a half a Quest chocolate chip cookie, melted in the microwave with a little halo ice cream.... All in all we all had a wonderful time. (been way to long).

    All said and done, I was a little over 1400 calories on the day.... And so far this morning, no hunger yet. We went grocery shopping and took a long drive in the country.

    I'll keep monitoring... No Hair Falling out yet, Teeth are white with no wiggle, just a little more jiggle in my stomach fat as it get's more pliable and stretchy.. I'm good with that jiggle.

    Cheers all.
    edited February 21
  • paperpuddingpaperpudding Member Posts: 6,343 Member Member Posts: 6,343 Member
    I expect under eating problems like hair /nails/ teeth to take longer than 4 weeks to manifest.

    Whether you are doing keto or not_ eat , on average, the amount of calories you are meant to and don't fast for excessive time periods, if you must do it at all.

  • Poobah1972Poobah1972 Member, Premium Posts: 101 Member Member, Premium Posts: 101 Member
    I expect under eating problems like hair /nails/ teeth to take longer than 4 weeks to manifest.

    Whether you are doing keto or not_ eat , on average, the amount of calories you are meant to and don't fast for excessive time periods, if you must do it at all.
    You obviously aren’t going to change what you are doing until a problem is visible in some way.

    So, all I will say is please, both of you talk to your doctor, explain your weight loss plan, and ask him to monitor your health and run bloodwork checks monthly. This way any problems (and there will be) can be caught before remedial steps have to be taken.

    Anything that is so low cal (relatively speaking), and includes regular multi day fasting should be done with medical guidance.

    If you won’t work with your doctor on this, ask yourself why.

    Cheers, h.


    I appreciate the concern, I do. However As per my original post, I feel and has been my personal and fairly extensive history that I do not need to adhere to the MFP calorie intake recommendations due to the fact I'm grossly overweight and have an abundance of fat reserves to make up my current shortfall.. You certainly can if you want too, and weight loss will occur. I've personally recommend eating your goal weight requirements minus a modest calorie restriction. That puts me around 1500-1800 (granted on Saturday I was a little under, but that sometimes happens on Saturdays as It's not a work day and I'm just not has hungry through out the day. As time goes on, I doubt I'll be reducing calories from where I am now, and in fact I suspect as activity levels rise and available fuel (fat) lowers I'll be increasing calorie intake to maintain energy and strength.

    What I eat now is far healthier then what I was eating before I started this journey... Out is every single fast food item and junk food or beverage. I'm eating more vegetables, salads then i would of eaten previously. So well I understand that eating less calories in general could result in nutrient deficiencies, am I really more at risk of that now then I was before? Given that my weight is already significantly down, I'm significantly more mobile, my knee and back pain has all but disappeared, and I'm just generally feeling 100% better.

    Sometimes I feel there is a disconnect between those that have never experienced being 400-500 pounds plus, vs those that are much closer to a normal weight. The nutrients and energy that can be mobilized in the extremely obese is much higher then those that are not and I believe that's just common sense. Yes I do agree that muscle mass, can be lost, but I don't think it's something of huge concern given the our situation. Am I losing muscle mass... Probably, but I definitely don't need muscle mass to carry 500 lb's around eventually so no matter what by the end of this journey I should be loosing muscle mass. During my first major weight loss that took many years to reverse... My back and legs were extremely strong, and Obviously cause they needed to be to get me through daily life. This time, I don't plan to be able to do 500 pound squats, 750 pound deadlifts for reps, and 380 pound bench press. Sure I had a high metabolism, but I spent more then a health amount of time in the gym and away from my family. Even my heart, in the end won't need to be as strong as it is now... With every pound I loose, my heart will need to work that much less. All to say, some loss of muscle mass is to be expected and should happen more so for the grossly overweight.

    You know, I could have had weight loss reduction surgery. I decided against it, because I know I can lose the weight, as I have done before. It took me a long while to comes to terms with the fact that I let myself gain it all back over a long period of time. But I've finally forgave myself and am getting on with it now. I'm a self-proclaimed Chef, that enjoy's cooking and food in general. However, I know lot's of people that had surgery and the general impression is it just isn't for me. But from what I seen and the amount of weight these people loose, they are typically eating less then I am 6 days a week in some cases significantly. Granted they have occasional doctor's visits and are most often taking a liquid vitamin to make up for deficiencies. But I feel there calorie restriction as shown by there extreme weight loss does offer some evidence that my calorie restriction at least 6 days a week is within the limits of safe. As for the fasting day, well that is a matter of debate.

    I should add I don't currently have a doctor... But I will see what I can do about getting some blood work done, and see what the doctor thinks (perhaps every 3 months or so I'm thinking). I have spoken to my Doctor in the past and another Doctor more recently about Low Carbing.... And both of them were for anything that works to reduce my eight. My orginal Doctor was skeptical at first, but after watching me loose 200+ pounds and also witnessing my whole body transformation (hulking muscle mass) he was completely sold, and HDL LDL were picture perfect at the end. (granted I did have a few bouts of gout during initial fast weight loss, that I seem to have figured solved simply with greatly increased water intake. I will inquiry about fasting though, I promise.

    This is only early days yet.

    Cheers



    edited February 22
  • Poobah1972Poobah1972 Member, Premium Posts: 101 Member Member, Premium Posts: 101 Member
    Just an fyi, I made my Food Diary public in case anyone was interested in what I was eating. :smile:
  • paperpuddingpaperpudding Member Posts: 6,343 Member Member Posts: 6,343 Member
    I have spoken to my Doctor in the past and another Doctor more recently about Low Carbing.... And both of them were for anything that works to reduce my weight.

    Nobody here was against Low carbing - if that is a WOE that suits you

    and of course if you are very overweight anything that reduces that is a good thing

    Extrapolating from that to fasting for 48 to 60 hours is the issue.

    But you have made up your mind - so be it.
  • Poobah1972Poobah1972 Member, Premium Posts: 101 Member Member, Premium Posts: 101 Member
    Nobody here was against Low carbing - if that is a WOE that suits you

    and of course if you are very overweight anything that reduces that is a good thing

    Extrapolating from that to fasting for 48 to 60 hours is the issue.

    But you have made up your mind - so be it.

    I hear yeah... Generally, fasts will only be 36 hours. I did the 48 hours once.... And I'm not so sure I'll be doing a 60 hour, That I haven't made my mind up on yet and you never know what might happen between now and when I actually have an opportunity to try it. Maybe the idea, won't seem so exciting by then? Hmmmm, we shall see.
  • lemurcat2lemurcat2 Member, Premium Posts: 6,744 Member Member, Premium Posts: 6,744 Member
    I don't think a 36 hour fast is dangerous at all -- I've done full day fasts for religious reasons (dinner to breakfast the day after is about 36 hours) and never thought there was anything dubious about it. What worries me a bit about the fasting culture that seems "in" right now is this idea that longer and longer fasts are desirable for some reason, that doing the longest fast (obv not literally the longer, I've also read about the guy who did the super long medically supervised fast) is a thing to aspire to. One reason I'm not that positive about fasting in that way is that I don't think it's likely to be as useful a way to maintain weight than just learning to eat how you want to be eating daily or over the course of a week or what not (and maintenance can be a lot harder than losing).

    Out of curiosity, what is it that seems exciting about a 60 hour fast? Are you reading stuff that suggests it will be some mindblowing experience or is it because it seems like a feat or what? I'm just curious. (I don't think fasting for essentially two full days will hurt you, although I would be really careful and read about how you should refeed, since I think that can be the most risky part. It just seems pointless and unpleasant to me.)
  • Poobah1972Poobah1972 Member, Premium Posts: 101 Member Member, Premium Posts: 101 Member
    lemurcat2 wrote: »
    Out of curiosity, what is it that seems exciting about a 60 hour fast? Are you reading stuff that suggests it will be some mindblowing experience or is it because it seems like a feat or what? I'm just curious. (I don't think fasting for essentially two full days will hurt you, although I would be really careful and read about how you should refeed, since I think that can be the most risky part. It just seems pointless and unpleasant to me.)

    Good Morning Lemurcar2... Hope your Tuesday is going well.

    I've read a bunch of stuff from all sorts of people... I will say I'm a Gemini, and true to my Sign, I am a Devil's advocate at heart, always seeing both sides of the story, and to a great extent understanding both sides (i was often the judge and mediator of other peoples problems growing up, not by choice but because people tended to trust me advice). Truth always lies on spectrum, Like Light and Dark, Hate and love and good and evil (if either truly exist). Ego often prevents us from recognizing our own truths or lack there of, or being able to see clearly the point of view of others.

    Yes, you do see many people out there that report fasting for 30 days or even more, however I do have to wonder what is the actual point? Why subject oneself to multiple long fasts per year? One particular gentlemen, talks of fasting for an extended time lines, and preparing for a marathon... Then upon completion of his fast he would eat all you can eat at Taco Bell? (apparently he claims he doesn't need to heed the refeeding guidelines as apparently for him he's so use to long term fasts, his body has adjusted). This all seems pointless in multiple respects? how is it that he's gaining 30-50 pounds that he would be able to fast for 30 or more days so many times a year? And gorging at Taco Bell in calibration of a successful fast? I'm sure he had his reasons, but I'm not sure they have anything to do with healthy approach to life in general? While he seems to have will power to command, perhaps it's the challenge and the ability to say he did it that motivates him more then the weight loss in the first place? Wouldn't will power be better put to use by first losing the weight then maintaining so such drastic measures aren't needed again in the future? I do not aspire to partake in a prolonged fast, I enjoy eating and cooking not only for me, but for my family.

    I will admit I have read the entire paper in its entirety on the Gentlemen that did fast for over a year, and i will add that the document itself is valuable from the point of view of general safety and overall proof that our bodies to great extent are designed to be able to do this. While the particulars are getting a little foggy, (it's been a few years since I read it) the gentlemen at first was under pretty constant Dr. Supervision, but as time went on he actually walked to the clinic whether it was once a week or longer I don't remember. They constantly monitored his blood work, and there wasn't really problems that required response until the fast amount of his weight was already consumed. His muscle mass certainly declined, but as I had mentioned above, going from 400-500 pounds to normal weight you really should lose muscle mass as you just don't need the same amount. And his heart health improved. So none of this to say, this is what I aspire too, I only take it antidotal evidence that fasts such as the ones I'm partaking in are far from dangerous as some would think.

    The stories I enjoyed the most and offered the most encouragement was found on a few different sites, but It had a wide range of people and many couples... Both of these sites featured people that were performing some form of IF, whether it was OMAD, windowed or fasting 1 or even 2 days a week. I didn't dive into the weeds, but just enjoyed what they had to say about their particular journeys. Many of these people were also low carbing. Coming from a history of successful weight loss (granted I gained it all back when I made some poor life decisions), I already know how successful I can be doing low carb and how easy it is for me to still enjoy what I eat, lose weight, and not feel like I'm constantly starving while I'm doing it. Also being so large and putting a fairly extensive amount of research into what I've done over the years, I tend to think I understand my body and what is safe compared to some good intentioned people that really don't have a clue what it is to be this large, nor likely didn't have the personal stake in anything they may have read involving such large people, that they probably couldn't understand or retain said information as a person might who does have a personal stake in doing so. Not to say I don't appreciate everyone's comments, because to comment is to at least care at some level.

    So why did i state I was excited for my first opportunity to fast for 60 hours? (Putting my Ego aside), when i wrote that I just undertook my first few fasts and finally got up the courage to write about it.... It was early days (still is), I had slayed my nemesis, and I did so handily. Never in all my life, did I realize that it would be so easy to do such a thing as "Not Eat" for day. And all the time, doing it without any discomfort, or hardly any real hunger. I was like a child with his brand new bicycle. I felt that needed to let people know, as before that moment, I really didn't understand what it was actually going to feel like, and neither did my fiancé who equally slayed her nemesis. It was and still is an exciting time for us. But I will be honest, I'm not as excited as I initially was about the potential of a 60 hour fast on our horizon. Such is life, you start something new, you approach it with a fresh face and lots of hope and energy, as time goes on emotions balance with reality and you come into balance. I'm really on the fence at this point. A 36 hour fast is really a piece of cake for us, and I kind of like having my Sundays so open Time wise to do whatever else we want.... But 60 hours will likely grow old really, so yeah not so sure about that one.

    Cheers!
  • Poobah1972Poobah1972 Member, Premium Posts: 101 Member Member, Premium Posts: 101 Member
    I mean't to include a bit about refeeding after a fast in my above post...

    I will say this, while my fasts have been of a shorter variety... It is worth noting, that within 1.5-3 hours of eating I do experience a very short bout of a liquid diarrhea. Like short as in, sit down and done (not hold onto your seat, wide eyed terror or anything extreme like that). At that point the rest of the week progresses as normal with typical movements occurring every day or every other day. It's like food hit's my stomach and my entire system gets a bit of a flush, probably has something to do with a little excess stomach/bowel fluids being produced and little to slow it down between my stomach and ejection point as my digestive system comes fully online? But that is pure speculation. I don't believe any special refeeding guidelines during my particular fast periods are needed, specially since I'm only eating 350-500 calories max at my initial re-feeding.

    I would say the longer you go the more important food selection would become.
    edited February 23
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