Keto and Fasting has been amazing thus far.
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Sucrose, OK I take my mistake.
For bread more goodies I just recalled: opioids content, glycimic and insulimic indexes more than pure sugar 130%, autoimmune diseases, possible autism in children.
Asian example of consuming rice is very poor example. While in USA and other western countries around 10% population diagnosed with diabetes, unfortunate Asian countries like China, India, Indonesia (all high consumption of rice) have scaled to 30% of real diagnosed diabetes of all ages including young kids.
Growth of the world diabetes increased from 9% in 2000, 12% in 2010, 16.8% in 2020. Most growth attributed to higher growing populations in Asian countries. So, no greatness about rice, like any other grains, especially GMO.
Sorry about man who started this thread. He just wanted to share with community his success story of eating no bread and other high processed food. He did not specified how much he and his wife weighted before started keto. But my impression was around 360-400 lb. I wanted be as close as possible to his specific needs. I repeat again, that keto/low carb may not be perfect for everybody. People with normal metabolism could eat what they want , but specifically this man and woman have already have eaten their load of bread. It is very good, that keto worked for them. I hope for the close future it will be working for them also
ummmm... so whole grains, like rice are bad for you??? Let's ask the blue zones....
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Congratulations on your success.
I for one would never consider someone fasting to be crazy. People have been doing it through out history in many different cultures and religions.
Good luck. I am a little concerned you are pushing yourself too hard, but you can always relax the diet a bit if it becomes too much.3 -
For bread more goodies I just recalled: opioids content, glycimic and insulimic indexes more than pure sugar 130%, autoimmune diseases, possible autism in children.
Oh dear, that is really silly.
Please provide any sources that support such assertions.
bread is just a food - eat it or dont eat it, thats all.14 -
Human history is much longer than you can imaging. Thousands years of evolution is definitely not correct, We talking millions years of evolution. All this amazingly long historical stretch humans did not touch even one piece of bread, one piece of sugar. What prehistoric man could find in nature is only, plants parts . like tubers, leaves, stems, very small fruits, berries. With such a little nutritious values of these parts of veggies, sure thing he turned to the meat of animals, where whole spectrum of nutrients and calories present in full.
Some people miss the point: not all carbs created equal. If they say carbs , they mean bread, for some reason. Let distinguish once and forever carbs are not only bread. Carbs are million of plants and their parts. They are not addictive, hard to eat 1 lb of kale or spinach, but it is easy to eat 1lb sandwich for some people. Bread looks good, smells good and taste very good. Such heard to resist fresh bread.
I don't particularly like bread, only eat it occasionally. I eat around 250g carbs daily. Evolutionary biologists will tell you that the thousands of years of human farming are plenty of time to create adaptation to eat grain. Flour is just ground grain.
To piggyback off your point:
I enjoy bread when I choose to eat it. I can also go weeks without eating it.
When I say "carbs," I don't mean "bread." The idea that low carbers have a better idea of what carbohydrates are than those of us who regularly eat a moderate-to-high carbohydrate diet is kind of ridiculous. We KNOW carbohdyrates are found in a variety of foods, some of them quite nutrient-dense. That's why we choose to eat the way we do!6 -
Yes, those sugars in nature, are distributed in the fiber of the plant. For 5 g of concentrated sucralose (which is our sugar) you, probably chew a whole plant of 3-4 lb shugar canes or 3-4 roots of beet.
As much as archaeology declares, the switch to agriculture made man worth in physical condition: shorter stature, teeth decay, diabetics mellitus, heart problem of all sorts, newrologic problems, arthritis, allergic reactions, leaky guts, lectin problems, inflamation of different origin.
I'm really curious how archaeologists have documented "leaky gut," given that it's a controversial diagnosis even today with live patients.12 -
Sardinia, Italy are part of Midditerenian rigion. It is exactly that part of the world which was a rule maker for menu items like shishkabab, kebab, prosciutto, soppressata, salami, coppa, pizza. And you want to suggest that these people did not know how to make and prepare meats. To present those colorful diagrams, some of the people, oddly chosen living in the area of interest who age over 100 y/o were sent special questionnaires with questions what did you eat last year, last 10 years, last 50 years, last 100 years. Do you think these people of 100 years and over could remember what they eat? They hardly remember what they eat yesterday...
The other point of errors, is some disagreement between what can be considered as MEAT. On this question "did you eat meat?" They can answer " NO meat I eat," b/c they don t even consider poultry, fish, crabs, octopus, sheep, pork as meat. For many nationals, meat it means cow meat only.
The third point is disagreement between perception of food names. You may say pizza is meat dish, but Amarican society calles pizza vegetable dish. Olive leaves are veggies or meat dish? Stuffed cabbage is veggies or meat?
Now, if you want to include wild bees honey in your menu, think again. Wild bees are such an angry animals, that you have to be super pro to get single ounce of honey from their nest.
Now tubers in hadza" menu". If you try those tubers, you probably spit them the same time. They unbelievably hard to chew, nasty in taste and have very little nutritious value. Comparing them with modern carefully selectionned thru thousands years will be stupid, at least .
For example watermelon of prehistoric times were size of walnut, little tarty yellow, hard skinned fruits. Apples were look and taste like our modern crap apples.
So those diagrams have very little truth information3 -
On Okinawa diagram, nobody told you what style of eating those people have. But it is a very special comment has to be done. They eat first about 2 times a day, consuming only 80% of fullness feeling in the stomach. With this style of eating any food, even cake or pop corn turn in to heath food.3
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So, no source for your bread and opiods autism etc claims then10
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Read books of dr Benjamin Bickman, Robert Lustig, Paul Mason, Kriss Knobbe, Sten Ekberg, Diet Doctor Brad Scher, Peter Attia. Or just listen their podcasts, especially I recommend Metabolic Classroom with short and dens exploration of the nutrition matter.
I just find out that Sardinia Centenarians questionnaires were done in the period of lent, when these very religion people have to low or out-rite reject any meat product. So I suggest, to take these studies with grain of salt3 -
You may say pizza is meat dish, but Amarican society calles pizza vegetable dish.
I don't think you should assume that most Americans consider pizza a vegetable dish. It's not at all uncommon for Americans to eat pizza without any vegetables on it at all (other than the culinary vegetable of tomato).
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I. I've never considered pizza a meat or vegetable dish.
I consider it mostly bread and cheese, regardless of toppings.
Source: I'm American.12 -
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dr Benjamin Bickman, Robert Lustig, Paul Mason, Kriss Knobbe, Sten Ekberg, Diet Doctor Brad Scher, Peter Attia. Or just listen their podcasts, especially I recommend Metabolic Classroom with short and dens exploration of the nutrition matter.
An impressive list of well marketed "experts" and possibly (I'm honestly not willing to look them up one by one, I don't actually care enough to look up the ones condemned by association but I am willing to posit) some experts, right?
I mean could there possibly exist any other viewpoints? Say, even viewpoints and suggestions written out in consultation with other scientists, some of who have backgrounds specifically in the field of nutrition?
Let's see... a dozen authors above... let's pick a dozen countries full of authors below...
http://www.fao.org/nutrition/education/food-dietary-guidelines/en/
And what are the consensus guidelines? https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/healthy-diet (I still think that reading some of the country guidelines is more worthwhile than marketing podcasts. I was honestly surprised by the Brazilian guidelines as an example. It is also interesting to see how many of the guidelines make assumptions and the reasons behind some of the recommendations--which, once you consider them, lets you decide if the reasons make sense to you)
I mean: everyone of us has a **kitten**, and they all stink, right?
Sure, for some people keto and intermittent fasting work. Judging from the amount of beyond the first year posts in the various IF and keto groups... the willingness to remain engaged and adjust as your needs change over time is pretty dang important to people who chose to roll this way.
Then again... that's true no matter what type of eating you practice.
There is NO METHOD OF EATING that is more impactful to your health than getting your body weight within the continuum of being "not underweight" and being "not too overweight". There is no method of eating more important than getting into your body enough (but not too many) calories of sufficient basic nutrients for you to function well.
After that things start to diverge. And what is do-able for someone at one point of time may change over time.
I would rather take advice from the WHO than from a random collection of un-vetted, controversial, or "in the forefront of experimenting on me at no cost to themselves" sources. Or even better, the ones who base their spiel on considerations such as: "I'm going to make more money by saying something different than anyone else"
If I were the OP I would most definitely continue to roll with what is working now BUT BE WILLING TO TAKE A DEEP BREATH AND ADJUST, if needed, as time goes on. And I would try to TEMPER my enthusiasm. Just because something is working well today; avoid the transmission to double down. Show restraint and keep working for the long term.
You nudge equilibriums (when it is feasible to just nudge). In general, the more we "perturb" the harder the kick back, it seems, that we get from our bodies.
So lose weight... but try not to exceed the 0.5% to 1% range of bodyweight per week. For people with less weight to lose 0.25% to 1% per week may be even more appropriate.
So exercise and be active.. but keep things to where you can keep going without wearing down body and soul.
If things kick back... don't give up; but build impediments to regain and fight hard to re-balance... and then, more cautiously, move back down again. Don't give up. Seek to balance. Perturb the balance as little as you can while moving meaningfully towards where you want to be. Adjust and stay in the game.4 -
kshama2001 wrote: »
Yeah--I usually eat pizza with no meat and a variety of vegetables, and yet I would not call pizza a vegetable dish and don't know anyone who would. Source: I am also an American.12 -
for you @natasor1 , you might want to go read the meta-analysis study linked in the first post of this thread:
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10840145/meta-analysis-of-keto-diets-frontiers-in-nutrition-july-2021#latest
As for the list of experts, I have watched Ekberg and he just rehashes the same incorrect BS about insulin and how the body works that Fung posits (and has been thoroughly debunked on). I would guess that the others are pretty much on the same boats as Fung and Ekberg.8 -
I just find out that Sardinia Centenarians questionnaires were done in the period of lent, when these very religion people have to low or out-rite reject any meat product. So I suggest, to take these studies with grain of salt
This has been asserted for some time by people selling high fat diet advice, usually, or related books. It has been soundly debunked.
First, they did three periods of diet sampling. They intentionally included one from Lent, since Orthodox Christianity has strict rules about Lent (including no olive oil or meat/meat product other than shellfish). They also have a number of other fast days. If in fact this made a difference to their overall diet, it was important to include the period, as it was relevant to what the overall diet was throughout a year. So this wasn't misleading, it would have been misleading to ignore Lent.
However, what was actually discovered is that there wasn't a huge difference (or really any significant one) in the information gathered from Lent vs non Lent. Apparently many people didn't actually follow the strict rules.
I am not pointing this out because I think one needs to eat a low fat diet (I do not, personally), but because it is an inaccurate claim often repeated, and demonstrates the kind of misleading information that the "experts" identified (or at least some of them) frequently repeat. (Lustig I think is anti sugar and not generally anti carb.)6 -
kshama2001 wrote: »
I mean, I've heard it as a joke. But it was very obviously a joke.
ETA: Unless, is this a reference to the school lunch controversy? It seems like, as with many news items, stories about this were written/headlined for peak click value, NOT necessarily with an eye toward accuracy over all. This piece is more in depth and seeks to clear up many of the misperceptions floating around at that time about what exactly the debate was.4 -
Note: for the sake of OP, although I think he was checking in and isn't participating any more, it might be nice to move the debate about dubious anti bread claims to a Debate section thread, possibly even the new Keto one.6
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3
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Note: for the sake of OP, although I think he was checking in and isn't participating any more, it might be nice to move the debate about dubious anti bread claims to a Debate section thread, possibly even the new Keto one.
Lol... I know better enough then to get involved in this debate. I can see both sides of just about any debate, but as in any debate the truth is in the eye of the beholder.. It's never black, it's never white. And every single person here will have a slightly different perception on anything, dependent on the very specific set of life lessons and all 5 senses that evolved the distribution of synapses across all your trillions of neurons.
Were all unique, different... Different opinions. Eat different foods. It's all good. Low Carb is personally working great for me, and I do believe Carb addiction is real in some people. ME being one of them. Just 2 weeks or sooner into this way of eating all unstoppable urges to stop and binge Completely disappeared. Depression lifted. Energy came rushing back. Each day become brighter. I certainly ain't missing any foods. And I'm practically never hungry. We have amazing bread, buns etc, and we found a lasagna noodle we like with the right texture. Were having lasagna tonight in fact.. No it's not Cabbage Lasagna. (It's Lasagna noodles made from Palm Hearts - see my diary for today it's a real deal lasagna August 6th, 2021 Dinner). Pretty much all the food we have ever loved we eat every week. So yeah, it's good for me and my fiancé.
As I'm sure your way of eating is amazing for you. Heck who knows what I'll be doing in 10 years, once I get closer to goal, I can see myself adding in more whole grains and complex carbs specifically leading into and post workout with the sole mission to facilitate better muscle growth and recovery. But I think I'm probably going to stay away from the simple ones and more or less empty ones for the rest of my life. I guess time will tell the story though.
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To be clear, I don't think anyone was arguing against keto. I know keto works great for some, and I like eating lowish carb when on a deficit too. There were just some weird claims made upthread (not by you!).8
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MargaretYakoda wrote: »
That was a good one... Although many of those cauliflower recipes have a huge amount of cheese and or fat in it.0 -
MargaretYakoda wrote: »
(I like cauliflower, but not as a substitute for starches.)14 -
kshama2001 wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »
(I like cauliflower, but not as a substitute for starches.)
@kshama2001 —- mon ami!!! You haven’t tried my Cauli pizza!! Hahah
Ps.. cauliflower bites … just sayin’ 😉😉1 -
Poobah1972 wrote: »Note: for the sake of OP, although I think he was checking in and isn't participating any more, it might be nice to move the debate about dubious anti bread claims to a Debate section thread, possibly even the new Keto one.
Lol... I know better enough then to get involved in this debate. I can see both sides of just about any debate, but as in any debate the truth is in the eye of the beholder.. It's never black, it's never white. And every single person here will have a slightly different perception on anything, dependent on the very specific set of life lessons and all 5 senses that evolved the distribution of synapses across all your trillions of neurons.
Were all unique, different... Different opinions. Eat different foods. It's all good. Low Carb is personally working great for me, and I do believe Carb addiction is real in some people. ME being one of them. Just 2 weeks or sooner into this way of eating all unstoppable urges to stop and binge Completely disappeared. Depression lifted. Energy came rushing back. Each day become brighter. I certainly ain't missing any foods. And I'm practically never hungry. We have amazing bread, buns etc, and we found a lasagna noodle we like with the right texture. Were having lasagna tonight in fact.. No it's not Cabbage Lasagna. (It's Lasagna noodles made from Palm Hearts - see my diary for today it's a real deal lasagna August 6th, 2021 Dinner). Pretty much all the food we have ever loved we eat every week. So yeah, it's good for me and my fiancé.
As I'm sure your way of eating is amazing for you. Heck who knows what I'll be doing in 10 years, once I get closer to goal, I can see myself adding in more whole grains and complex carbs specifically leading into and post workout with the sole mission to facilitate better muscle growth and recovery. But I think I'm probably going to stay away from the simple ones and more or less empty ones for the rest of my life. I guess time will tell the story though.
Poobah, I dont think anyone was arguing against keto being a good fit for some people - you included.
I have absolutely no issues with people doing keto if it suits them, even though it doesnt suit me
I do have issues with people claiming keto is a must for everyone or bread is addictive or other nonsense
(which wasnt you, I know)11 -
kshama2001 wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »
(I like cauliflower, but not as a substitute for starches.)
Gluten intolerant here. Love my starches. Just not the wheat….1 -
Poobah1972 wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »
That was a good one... Although many of those cauliflower recipes have a huge amount of cheese and or fat in it.
Speaking as a gluten intolerant person, you can have my cheesy, fatty fatty fat fat and veggie covered cauliflower pizza when you pry it out of my (insert NRA quote here)
I budgeted those calories, and dag gum it, I’m agonna eat them.6 -
Sardinia, Italy are part of Midditerenian rigion. It is exactly that part of the world which was a rule maker for menu items like shishkabab, kebab, prosciutto, soppressata, salami, coppa, pizza. And you want to suggest that these people did not know how to make and prepare meats. To present those colorful diagrams, some of the people, oddly chosen living in the area of interest who age over 100 y/o were sent special questionnaires with questions what did you eat last year, last 10 years, last 50 years, last 100 years. Do you think these people of 100 years and over could remember what they eat? They hardly remember what they eat yesterday...
The other point of errors, is some disagreement between what can be considered as MEAT. On this question "did you eat meat?" They can answer " NO meat I eat," b/c they don t even consider poultry, fish, crabs, octopus, sheep, pork as meat. For many nationals, meat it means cow meat only.
The third point is disagreement between perception of food names. You may say pizza is meat dish, but Amarican society calles pizza vegetable dish. Olive leaves are veggies or meat dish? Stuffed cabbage is veggies or meat?
Now, if you want to include wild bees honey in your menu, think again. Wild bees are such an angry animals, that you have to be super pro to get single ounce of honey from their nest.
Now tubers in hadza" menu". If you try those tubers, you probably spit them the same time. They unbelievably hard to chew, nasty in taste and have very little nutritious value. Comparing them with modern carefully selectionned thru thousands years will be stupid, at least .
For example watermelon of prehistoric times were size of walnut, little tarty yellow, hard skinned fruits. Apples were look and taste like our modern crap apples.
So those diagrams have very little truth information
You just don't like anything that contradicts your narrow point of view.......10 -
YOU TOO3
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MargaretYakoda wrote: »Poobah1972 wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »
That was a good one... Although many of those cauliflower recipes have a huge amount of cheese and or fat in it.
Speaking as a gluten intolerant person, you can have my cheesy, fatty fatty fat fat and veggie covered cauliflower pizza when you pry it out of my (insert NRA quote here)
I budgeted those calories, and dag gum it, I’m agonna eat them.
I did keto for a year and a half and even though I'm not doing it any more, I still love me some cauliflower pizza. Honestly, if you are making it yourself, it doesn't contain any more fat than a normal-crust pizza haha.
I also love cauliflower mac and cheese, cauliflower fried "rice," and cauliflower mashed potatoes. Honestly, I don't know how anyone can do keto if they don't like cauliflower lol.
Keto worked for me for quite a while. It really helped me with my carb addiction. I'm still leery of any "nutritional" benefit that might come from our commercialized wheat and flour. The most popular wheat germ that we grow from agriculture is not grown because of its nutrition, it's popular because you can harvest it faster and get more out of it. Just look at enriched flour (flour that has no nutritional value after the milling process, so the FDA requires companies to add vitamins back into it).4
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