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Pfizer for teens?
Replies
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KeithBarrows wrote: »
First, that study has been covered in the article I linked. It has flaws that are stated and it was done prior to the research/large scale data crunching in the CNN article's quoted research. That Israeli study was in August.
Both of your links emphasize that it's far more dangerous (i.e. hospitalization and death rates) to be infected when not previously vaccinated and that previously infected people should still be vaccinated - that their "immunity" will wane too. Infection after vaccination does not necessarily mean sick. Just that one has been exposed and the virus has entered the host's body.
I'm not willing to roll those dice for myself, my family, or my workplace.
What is your actual objection to the vaccination(s)? I've yet to hear a good reason why one would not be vaccinated.
I've been vaccinated against many diseases I might not ever have caught, but nothing bad happened to me for having done the vaccinations and they may have saved me or someone in my circle.
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@cmriverside - I will abstain from answering. My experience has shown all too vividly that no matter my answer I will be vilified. And that right there is enough of an answer.5
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KeithBarrows wrote: »@cmriverside - I will abstain from answering. My experience has shown all too vividly that no matter my answer I will be vilified. And that right there is enough of an answer.
There is enough of an answer from actual medical authorities saying people who have been infected with Covid should still get vaccinated
There is also no evidence that you speak for any other people who had the disease - so, no, there are not
"37 million of us that no longer feel we need something that nature already gave us." - there are just 37 million who also previously had the disease and survived.
Quite different.
You made statements which are incorrect - sorry if you see civilly pointing that out as "vilifying"
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What is your actual objection to the vaccination(s)? I've yet to hear a good reason why one would not be vaccinated.
^^I'm quoting myself here before someone jumps on this statement.
Of course there are good reasons why one would not BE vaccinated. My question to @KeithBarrows was more about why he didn't think he WANTED the vaccine against all reasoning (and his whole family, who I'm thinking are probably looking to him for leadership.)
Obviously there are medical contraindications and there may be religious objections, though most major religions have said that their members should be vaccinated.
I just keep getting this feeling that it's more about childish rebellion or politics or maybe fear of needles - whatever - but the reticence is absolutely baffling and I'm trying to understand. Truly.5 -
cmriverside wrote: »I just keep getting this feeling that it's more about childish rebellion or politics or maybe fear of needles - whatever - but the reticence is absolutely baffling and I'm trying to understand. Truly.
Let's see:
Oldest daughter vaccinated - yes.
Middle daughter vaccinated - yes.
Middle daughter's Husband vaccinated - yes.
Middle daughter's kids vaccinated - no, she is waiting for it to be authorized for under 8 and under 3.
For those of us who have had Covid:
Wife vaccinated - no. Most EDS patients have been counseled against vaccination as a precaution. She works a boutique retail store and has been open since Florida lifted all bans 18-ish months ago. 99.9% of the people who come into the store have been unmasked - for the last 18-ish months!
Son vaccinated - no. Type 1 Diabetic, semi-pro ball player, does not want to risk the heart problems associated with his cohort of young adults. Son also works 30+ hours/week in the same store my wife manages.
Me vaccinated - no. I was born on the Asian Rim (Philippines) and grew up there for the first 5 years of my life. I probably had more shots by the age of 5 than most Americans have had their whole life. I was also military for 13 years and received batteries of shots there as well. Afraid of needles? Afraid not! I also donated plasma for several years - 4-5 times each month. Those are some BIG needles. Flu shot - I've gotten it once for a client I picked up for work, and voluntarily twice before that. Every time it knocked me out of working for 3-5 days. I do NOT do flu shots.
The CDC is far from settled on any of this. It has been a game of changing their mind every freaking week for 20 months straight. Are they all vaccinated? Nope! The only answer you get on that subject is evasion.
https://youtu.be/QabAtYBnqro
The covid "vaccination" is NOT a vaccination: "A vaccine is a biological preparation that provides active acquired immunity to a particular infectious disease. A vaccine typically contains an agent that resembles a disease-causing microorganism and is often made from weakened or killed forms of the microbe, its toxins, or one of its surface proteins."
The shot being offered is a mRNA shot. "Messenger RNA (mRNA) vaccines teach our cells how to make a protein that triggers an immune response." mRNA tries to prep your body to respond to certain proteins - the same way a body who already had the disease is able to remember the sequence (RNA) and produce the antibodies again if infected again.
How many Nurses, Doctors, Techs, etc have been "put on leave" for not getting the jab?
Why are the heroes of the pandemic now the pariah of civilization?
How many teenagers and young adults have enlarged hearts after getting the jab?
How many have tested positive for covid after their 2nd shot?
How many are carriers of covid after their 2nd shot? (The false claim of protecting others by getting vaccinated.)
What is the FULL definition of herd immunity?
Why is 1/2 the definition of herd immunity being ignored?
If you are vaccinated why do you fear the unvaccinated? (Every other vaccine you ever got in your life was to protect YOU from that disease! But not this one?)
Why can you NOT sue for injury after receiving the jab? (That is a FIRST!)
- does not sound like you are "truly" trying to understand as you have this prejudgment sitting in your way.cmriverside wrote: »more about childish rebellion or politics or maybe fear of needles - whatever -6 -
KeithBarrows wrote: »cmriverside wrote: »I just keep getting this feeling that it's more about childish rebellion or politics or maybe fear of needles - whatever - but the reticence is absolutely baffling and I'm trying to understand. Truly.
Let's see:
Oldest daughter vaccinated - yes.
Middle daughter vaccinated - yes.
Middle daughter's Husband vaccinated - yes.
Middle daughter's kids vaccinated - no, she is waiting for it to be authorized for under 8 and under 3.
For those of us who have had Covid:
Wife vaccinated - no. Most EDS patients have been counseled against vaccination as a precaution. She works a boutique retail store and has been open since Florida lifted all bans 18-ish months ago. 99.9% of the people who come into the store have been unmasked - for the last 18-ish months!
Son vaccinated - no. Type 1 Diabetic, semi-pro ball player, does not want to risk the heart problems associated with his cohort of young adults. Son also works 30+ hours/week in the same store my wife manages.
Me vaccinated - no. I was born on the Asian Rim (Philippines) and grew up there for the first 5 years of my life. I probably had more shots by the age of 5 than most Americans have had their whole life. I was also military for 13 years and received batteries of shots there as well. Afraid of needles? Afraid not! I also donated plasma for several years - 4-5 times each month. Those are some BIG needles. Flu shot - I've gotten it once for a client I picked up for work, and voluntarily twice before that. Every time it knocked me out of working for 3-5 days. I do NOT do flu shots.
The CDC is far from settled on any of this. It has been a game of changing their mind every freaking week for 20 months straight. Are they all vaccinated? Nope! The only answer you get on that subject is evasion.https://youtu.be/QabAtYBnqro
The covid "vaccination" is NOT a vaccination: "A vaccine is a biological preparation that provides active acquired immunity to a particular infectious disease. A vaccine typically contains an agent that resembles a disease-causing microorganism and is often made from weakened or killed forms of the microbe, its toxins, or one of its surface proteins."
The shot being offered is a mRNA shot. "Messenger RNA (mRNA) vaccines teach our cells how to make a protein that triggers an immune response." mRNA tries to prep your body to respond to certain proteins - the same way a body who already had the disease is able to remember the sequence (RNA) and produce the antibodies again if infected again.
How many Nurses, Doctors, Techs, etc have been "put on leave" for not getting the jab?
Why are the heroes of the pandemic now the pariah of civilization?
How many teenagers and young adults have enlarged hearts after getting the jab?
How many have tested positive for covid after their 2nd shot?
How many are carriers of covid after their 2nd shot? (The false claim of protecting others by getting vaccinated.)
What is the FULL definition of herd immunity?
Why is 1/2 the definition of herd immunity being ignored?
If you are vaccinated why do you fear the unvaccinated? (Every other vaccine you ever got in your life was to protect YOU from that disease! But not this one?)
Why can you NOT sue for injury after receiving the jab? (That is a FIRST!)
- does not sound like you are "truly" trying to understand as you have this prejudgment sitting in your way.cmriverside wrote: »more about childish rebellion or politics or maybe fear of needles - whatever -
I am vaccinated and I don't fear the unvaccinated - not at all. I am very confident in the shot's ability to protect me. My main concern through the last wave was hospital capacity - if too many people remain unvaccinated and clog up the ICU's then other people die as a result. Personally I know two people who had their cancer surgery postponed earlier in the pandemic due to hospital capacity issues - one is fine the other is now dead. I don't want to go back to that due to low vaccine uptake.
I don't think that we will have that issue here where I live - we have a very high vaccine uptake rate. I honestly wish that they would stop bending over backwards trying to get the vaccine hesitant to take it - at this point anyone who doesn't have it is actively avoiding it so as far as I am concerned let them take their chances.
And I'm not an expert but pretty sure that this vaccine is the same as every other (in regard to it's purpose not it's makeup) - they are all designed to protect the person getting it AND also to protect public health with herd immunity. No vaccine is 100% effective (that I am aware of).8 -
You mad?
I'll answer this, but all the rest of your bizarre rant? No thanks.If you are vaccinated why do you fear the unvaccinated?
I don't necessarily fear the unvaccinated. I've had three shots. Something will kill me and it may as well be this so I'm not on some pink cloud either. But there are many millions of the unvaxxed and they are going crash their lives into a ditch, cost the country untold millions or billions of dollars if they get seriously ill or God forbid, die. Not to mention the hospital system and economy which needs this to be manageable. It's preventable.
I'm really happy about the Merck and Pfizer pills. That may save us - sounds really promising.
I still didn't read a reason why you don't want to help your country (thank you for your service, BTW, which makes your stance even more baffling) by getting vaccinated at the recommended interval after your Covid infection. It's not all about you and your fear of flu shots or your son's fear of a treatable rare side effect. I knew there was fear in there somewhere. Thanks for validating that. I hope it all turns out well for you and your family.
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I hope this doesn't get deleted for being political. It is a subject of health and fitness, though! Do you all think that the risks of covid outweigh the risks of adverse reactions to vaccine in pre-teens and teenagers? Is it worth it for healthy kids to be vaccinated?
ABSOLUTELY. Full stop.4 -
Vaccination does reduce the spread, but doesn’t eliminate it. Stop the lies.
I am vaccinated, had Covid infection prior to vaccination, and am going for my booster shot today.
My firsthand experience goes along with what studies are saying, that natural immunity is just temporary. Before vaccines were available I saw many patients who caught Covid twice, about 6 months apart.8 -
Quoting myself:KeithBarrows wrote: »@cmriverside - I will abstain from answering. My experience has shown all too vividly that no matter my answer I will be vilified. And that right there is enough of an answer.cmriverside wrote: » You mad?
I'll answer this, but all the rest of your bizarre rant? No thanks.
Quod erat demonstrandum.
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write an irrational rant and then complain about people calling it an irrational rant.
Okay 10 -
paperpudding wrote: »write an irrational rant and then complain about people calling it an irrational rant.
Okay
<sigh/> Ok.
Still QED.
As a point of education:
An ad hominem argument is a personal attack against the source of an argument, rather than against the argument itself. Essentially, this means that ad hominem arguments are used to attack opposing views indirectly, by attacking the individuals or groups that support these views.
Ad hominem arguments can take many forms, from basic name-calling to more complex rhetoric. For example, an ad hominem argument can involve simply insulting a person instead of properly replying to a point that they raised, or it can involve questioning their motives in response to their criticism of the current state of things.4 -
The covid "vaccination" is NOT a vaccination: "A vaccine is a biological preparation that provides active acquired immunity to a particular infectious disease. A vaccine typically contains an agent that resembles a disease-causing microorganism and is often made from weakened or killed forms of the microbe, its toxins, or one of its surface proteins."
The shot being offered is a mRNA shot. "Messenger RNA (mRNA) vaccines teach our cells how to make a protein that triggers an immune response." mRNA tries to prep your body to respond to certain proteins - the same way a body who already had the disease is able to remember the sequence (RNA) and produce the antibodies again if infected again.
1.How many Nurses, Doctors, Techs, etc have been "put on leave" for not getting the jab?
2.Why are the heroes of the pandemic now the pariah of civilization?
3.How many teenagers and young adults have enlarged hearts after getting the jab?
4.How many have tested positive for covid after their 2nd shot?
5.How many are carriers of covid after their 2nd shot? (The false claim of protecting others by getting vaccinated.)
6.What is the FULL definition of herd immunity?
7.Why is 1/2 the definition of herd immunity being ignored?
8.If you are vaccinated why do you fear the unvaccinated? (Every other vaccine you ever got in your life was to protect YOU from that disease! But not this one?)
9.Why can you NOT sue for injury after receiving the jab? (That is a FIRST!)
But assuming you actually wanted answers....
I have numbered questions to make answers clearer
Yes Covid vaccination is a vaccine - different vaccines work in different ways, doesn't make them not a vaccination, that is just silly semantics
1. I would think very few, although the few are quite vocal about it.
Medical personel are not always logical either, nor are they all specialists in immunology.
Case in point: constantly amazes me how many nurses smoke. Would we use this to suggest smoking is ok, since a few health professionals do it? I don't think so
2.Are they?? only the few mentioned above, if that. Seems false premise to me.
3.Extremely few
4.I dont know. Not very many. That isnt the question though - since nobody disputes one can still test positive after vaccination. The question would be how symptomatic, if at all, are those people if they get the disease and what viral load are they carrying
5. see answer to question 4
6+7. Herd immunity is easy to google and there would be better explanations than I can give. I dont see any part of herd immunity being ignored though
8 No, every vaccine I got was to protect me AND others around me, vaccination (other than tetanus and shingles) is not solely to protect yourself. I do not fear the unvaccinated for myself. I am relatively young and no medical conditions, I didnt too much fear Covid for myself either.
But vaccination isnt just about you, it is about others in the community - so I did it to protect myself and others.
9. No idea. someone in US would have to answer that. Sueing for known risks of vaccines isnt a thing in Australia for any vaccines.
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Why can you NOT sue for injury after receiving the jab? (That is a FIRST!)
No, it's not a first.
What IS the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program?0 -
KeithBarrows wrote: »paperpudding wrote: »write an irrational rant and then complain about people calling it an irrational rant.
Okay
<sigh/> Ok.
Still QED.
As a point of education:
An ad hominem argument is a personal attack against the source of an argument, rather than against the argument itself. Essentially, this means that ad hominem arguments are used to attack opposing views indirectly, by attacking the individuals or groups that support these views.
Ad hominem arguments can take many forms, from basic name-calling to more complex rhetoric. For example, an ad hominem argument can involve simply insulting a person instead of properly replying to a point that they raised, or it can involve questioning their motives in response to their criticism of the current state of things.
does it include making yourself the victim whenever anyone disagrees with you?8 -
Just published online yesterday from U.S. CDC (Centers for Disease Control) this report on the research -What is added by this report?
Among COVID-19–like illness hospitalizations among adults aged ≥18 years whose previous infection or vaccination occurred 90–179 days earlier, the adjusted odds of laboratory-confirmed COVID-19 among unvaccinated adults with previous SARS-CoV-2 infection were 5.49-fold higher than the odds among fully vaccinated recipients of an mRNA COVID-19 vaccine who had no previous documented infection (95% confidence interval = 2.75–10.99).
What are the implications for public health practice?
All eligible persons should be vaccinated against COVID-19 as soon as possible, including unvaccinated persons previously infected with SARS-CoV-2.
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7044e1.htm6 -
Moar explanation, I really feel like people just don't understand what is meant, whether through lack of comprehension or lack of information.
https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2021/10/covid-vocabulary-pandemic-words/620351/
In addition to clarifying a few commonly misused terms there are two long paragraphs in this article about Vaccine-Enhanced stronger immunity than just "natural."
2 -
cmriverside wrote: »KeithBarrows wrote: »I, my wife and our (adult) son are NOT vaxxed. All of us got Covid early (before tests, before vaxs). All of us live in a densely populated area. All of us have been subjected to dozens of people who tested positive. All of us have NOT gotten sick again. There is something to say about a Natural Immunity! 13x better than the vax according to latest, and largest, review of infection done to date.
Just remember, there are about 37 million people in the USA alone who have tested positive, were never hospitalized and are now carrying a Natural Immunity to Covid.
I am NOT advocating skipping the vax. If you at all feel you need it - GO GET IT! Just be aware that there are 37 million of us that no longer feel we need something that nature already gave us.
Give us your "study".
This recent story with CDC numbers published last week disagrees:
https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/29/health/covid-vaccine-protects-better-previous-infection/index.html
That link doesn't say what you think it does.- It only looks at a group hospitalized for COVID symptoms
- It shows unvaxxed admissions are 5.5 times higher than vaxxed COVID Admissions
- It didn't include any datapoints on natural immunity from prior infection
So, it supports the expectation that getting vaxxed reduces the chance of hospitalization (common knowledge). It doesn't compare natural immunity from prior infection with vaccination.
Maybe the journalist is an idiot, or was just tasked with doing a pro vaccination story and tried to make it fit as a slander at the Israeli study (which I'm not defending).
Myself, I've had COVID andx2 shots, need to schedule my booster. I also urge everyone to get vaxxed.
But for national policy, I think we should allow a mandate exemption for people who tested positive and recovered. This approach would undermine a key part of the anti-vaxx platform with minimal risk for the population.4 -
cmriverside wrote: »Just published online yesterday from U.S. CDC (Centers for Disease Control) this report on the research -What is added by this report?
Among COVID-19–like illness hospitalizations among adults aged ≥18 years whose previous infection or vaccination occurred 90–179 days earlier, the adjusted odds of laboratory-confirmed COVID-19 among unvaccinated adults with previous SARS-CoV-2 infection were 5.49-fold higher than the odds among fully vaccinated recipients of an mRNA COVID-19 vaccine who had no previous documented infection (95% confidence interval = 2.75–10.99).
What are the implications for public health practice?
All eligible persons should be vaccinated against COVID-19 as soon as possible, including unvaccinated persons previously infected with SARS-CoV-2.
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7044e1.htm
Thanks for the link, it does support the vaxx is better at preventing hospitalization than prior infection!1 -
I had a google out of curiosity because I recalled hearing that approx 150 police officers from NSW had been put on leave due to refusing the mandatory covid vaccines (https://www.google.com/search?q=police+officers+on+leave+covid+vaccine+queensland&oq=police+officers+on+leave+covid+vaccine+queensland&aqs=chrome..69i57.16048j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8) and it seems like very few Australian's serving in the Police Service are refusing to be vaccinated. However, Australia has aa *very* different cultural outlook to America, so these results of course don't apply to USA. I would be greatly surprised to learn that there were massive numbers (1000's-10 000's) of police/ambulance/medical/firefighting staff who refuse to be vaccinated in the USA.2
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Two weeks ago a friend was admitted to the local hospital. He had E Coli, was septic and had renal failure. The nurse said that if he had come to the hospital (the only hospital in our county) 4 weeks earlier he would not have been admitted and would have been sent home. He would have died. Four weeks earlier the hospital was at 150% of capacity, the ICU was full of covid patients, there were covid patients in beds in the hall, and covid patients spent up to 5 days on a gurney in the ER waiting for a bed. Less than 40% of this county has been vaccinated.
Recently Colorado was a hotspot. It was reported that 86% of the hospitalized covid patients were unvaccinated.
It makes me angry that people are so selfish in not getting vaccinated (with exceptions of course). Feel free to consider yourself vilified.13 -
All the really important stuff with links to the current research written in laymans' terms with explanations of "What does that mean"
https://www.goodrx.com/blog/how-effective-are-covid-19-vaccines/1 -
KeithBarrows wrote: »cmriverside wrote: »I just keep getting this feeling that it's more about childish rebellion or politics or maybe fear of needles - whatever - but the reticence is absolutely baffling and I'm trying to understand. Truly.
Let's see:
Oldest daughter vaccinated - yes.
Middle daughter vaccinated - yes.
Middle daughter's Husband vaccinated - yes.
Middle daughter's kids vaccinated - no, she is waiting for it to be authorized for under 8 and under 3.
For those of us who have had Covid:
Wife vaccinated - no. Most EDS patients have been counseled against vaccination as a precaution. She works a boutique retail store and has been open since Florida lifted all bans 18-ish months ago. 99.9% of the people who come into the store have been unmasked - for the last 18-ish months!
Son vaccinated - no. Type 1 Diabetic, semi-pro ball player, does not want to risk the heart problems associated with his cohort of young adults. Son also works 30+ hours/week in the same store my wife manages.
Me vaccinated - no. I was born on the Asian Rim (Philippines) and grew up there for the first 5 years of my life. I probably had more shots by the age of 5 than most Americans have had their whole life. I was also military for 13 years and received batteries of shots there as well. Afraid of needles? Afraid not! I also donated plasma for several years - 4-5 times each month. Those are some BIG needles. Flu shot - I've gotten it once for a client I picked up for work, and voluntarily twice before that. Every time it knocked me out of working for 3-5 days. I do NOT do flu shots.
The CDC is far from settled on any of this. It has been a game of changing their mind every freaking week for 20 months straight. Are they all vaccinated? Nope! The only answer you get on that subject is evasion.https://youtu.be/QabAtYBnqro
The covid "vaccination" is NOT a vaccination: "A vaccine is a biological preparation that provides active acquired immunity to a particular infectious disease. A vaccine typically contains an agent that resembles a disease-causing microorganism and is often made from weakened or killed forms of the microbe, its toxins, or one of its surface proteins."
The shot being offered is a mRNA shot. "Messenger RNA (mRNA) vaccines teach our cells how to make a protein that triggers an immune response." mRNA tries to prep your body to respond to certain proteins - the same way a body who already had the disease is able to remember the sequence (RNA) and produce the antibodies again if infected again.
How many Nurses, Doctors, Techs, etc have been "put on leave" for not getting the jab?
Why are the heroes of the pandemic now the pariah of civilization?
How many teenagers and young adults have enlarged hearts after getting the jab?
How many have tested positive for covid after their 2nd shot?
How many are carriers of covid after their 2nd shot? (The false claim of protecting others by getting vaccinated.)
What is the FULL definition of herd immunity?
Why is 1/2 the definition of herd immunity being ignored?
If you are vaccinated why do you fear the unvaccinated? (Every other vaccine you ever got in your life was to protect YOU from that disease! But not this one?)
Why can you NOT sue for injury after receiving the jab? (That is a FIRST!)
- does not sound like you are "truly" trying to understand as you have this prejudgment sitting in your way.cmriverside wrote: »more about childish rebellion or politics or maybe fear of needles - whatever -
The mRNA vaccine is indeed a vaccine. Yes, in the past we used microbes or pieces of microbes to pre-arm our immune system. In this case the mRNA vaccine directs our own cells to make a piece of the virus. How is this not a vaccine?9 -
1
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????....COVID is running through my kids' elementary and middle school like a wild fire.6 -
Well I did not get my kids vaccinated. One is only 2, the others are 6 and 14. I don't really know why I'm commenting, I'm not interested in defending my decision, but I'm glad I have the freedom to make that choice. Where I live, everyone is getting covid, vaccinated or not.7
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I'm homeschooling until next year, but our area's (in the South US) public schools spiked with about 35 kids reporting positive Jan.7-13th and this week only 1out of about 3,000 kids.1
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I'm homeschooling until next year, but our area's (in the South US) public schools spiked with about 35 kids reporting positive Jan.7-13th and this week only 1out of about 3,000 kids.
Don't really know the actual numbers, but our schools her in the ABQ metro area had a huge spike in January along with everywhere else. My work was crazy in January with positive cases...we had to shut down a couple of locations for about a week because we couldn't staff. My wife and I and our kids also caught it in early January...we're all fully vaccinated and wife and I are boosted...my youngest (9) and I were pretty sick, but only for 2 days and then it was like nothing happened. My wife had a runny nose and my 11 year old was asymptomatic other than saying he felt like he couldn't clear his throat.
In general, it seems to be petering out here and numbers are dropping fast...but January was nuts all over the state. Pretty much everyone in our circle of friends and my mom and her boyfriend caught it in January except for 2 people who somehow either managed not to get it or they had it and were asymptomatic. It's just surprising because they are a husband and wife personal trainers who own their own gym and they're around people and right up in their faces everyday, all day.2 -
Uh, nope. Children are not some magical creature or different species that has immunity that is somehow nonexistent in adult humans.
Heck, even some other species DON'T have immunity to this. So far, the species we know that can catch covid from us humans are: ferrets, cats (including big wild cats), dogs, mink, bank voles, bats, hamsters, pigs, rabbits, racoon dogs, tree shrews, and deer.
This many animals are susceptible to this virus, and we're supposed to believe that somehow the young of OUR species is safe, when even other species are catching covid?
Our kids are not that special, unfortunately.4
https://youtu.be/D6RsXN_Wars
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