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no sugar or flour, food addiction?
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Walkywalkerson wrote: »@ninerbuff
Call it what you will.
Disorder/ obsession / addiction.
People that are morbidly obese need to be weaned off of highly processed carbs/ sugar/ fatty/ salty foods.
Along with councilling for their 'disorder'
There was a long thread in Debate about whether food addiction is real. This isn't that thread.
7 -
jennypapage wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »jennypapage wrote: »There's no such thing as food addiction as far as i am concerned. I don't know anyone who can't stop eating broccoli or beans or any vegetable. We just like sweet things. Our ancestors liked sweet things. Sugar gives us and our brains energy. So we have evolved to eat sugary things .It used to be fruits, now it's cookies and pastries. That being said, i don't have a problem moderating myself. I may eat a whole pack of cookies, or i may eat just 1 cookie. Every day is different. It depends on how i've slept, what else i've eaten, where i am in my monthly cycle hormonally,etc.
I would not enjoy life if i had to completely cut off an entire group of products out of my life.
Eating a whole pack of cookies and that is moderating yourself?
Carry on.
yes it is. There are packs that only have 6 cookies inside. If i have a cup a of milk, i can easily finish those 6 cookies in 5 minutes or less. So, if i have the calories ,and i have covered all my other needs for the day,and i feel like it, i may eat the whole pack. Just like i will eat a whole domino's pizza by myself. But other than that pizza i won't be eating anything else for the day. It's still a choice if i 'm willing to eat a whole pizza and nothing else, or half a pizza and a ''proper'' meal the rest of my day. I am not addicted to it. I can choose to eat or not eat it.
For referance, i eat a domino's pizza about once every 3 months, and i think the last time i ate a whole pack of cookies was about 8 months ago.
Right now I have about 6 packs of cookies in my pantry .They've been sitting there for close to 4 months. About once a month i open a pack and eat 4 cookies a day for 4 days. So to answer your question, yes it is moderating as far as i see it.
Maybe a snowflake or 2 out the but I have never been around a normal weight adult and I've seen eat or they claim to eat whole pizzas at a sitting.
Ever, not just as a "splurge". Seems like a train ticket to weight issues. Just my opinion, I'm sure others will have ones that differ.1 -
Walkywalkerson wrote: »@ninerbuff
Call it what you will.
Disorder/ obsession / addiction.
People that are morbidly obese need to be weaned off of highly processed carbs/ sugar/ fatty/ salty foods.
Along with councilling for their 'disorder'
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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Walkywalkerson wrote: »Food addiction / obsession is very real IMO
How do people get so out of control with their weight - weighing over 600lbs etc ..without it?
Medicating whatever emotional disorder they have with food until they're bedbound.
If that isn't addiction I don't know what is!
It's a DISORDER. Mostly a mental one. People who get morbidly obese aren't food addicted, it just happens to be easy for them instead of drugs. When people who get gastric bypass aren't treated with therapy, they can turn to alcohol, gambling or something else since they can't eat anymore without being sick. It's the mental behavioral disorder that causes it. Not a physical addiction to food.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
It seems like you are using the terms "addiction" and "addictive" interchangeably. I also think it's not a strong argument to say that you can't have an addiction to food just because one needs food to survive and therefore can't completely abstain from it to recover. Are certain foods inherently addictive to some who are gentically/environmentally predisposed to addiction? Meh, that could be argued, although it's been pretty well documented that certain foods are much easier to overeat than others and produce more of that dopamine than others...which is why almost no one would binge on carrots as opposed to cookies. Is it the food/food combinations itself or just the taste and people's memories surrounding it could be argued for sure. Can people have an addiction to food that is "mental?" Well yes, all types of addiction are considered a mental illness, and addiction to alcohol or drugs is a mixture of physical dependence and brain chemistry. This is why some people can drink in moderation and some can't. If it were just the alcohol itself, than anyone who ever drank it would become addicted. Same thing with painkillers....although there are some substances that are inherently more addictive than others. I think the current idea with addiction that it's the surge of dopamine that the user gets from using that they're looking to repeat (different than physical dependence), no matter the substance. It just so happens that some substances (e.g., illicit drugs) produce more powerful effects than other substances.11 -
Theoldguy1 wrote: »jennypapage wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »jennypapage wrote: »There's no such thing as food addiction as far as i am concerned. I don't know anyone who can't stop eating broccoli or beans or any vegetable. We just like sweet things. Our ancestors liked sweet things. Sugar gives us and our brains energy. So we have evolved to eat sugary things .It used to be fruits, now it's cookies and pastries. That being said, i don't have a problem moderating myself. I may eat a whole pack of cookies, or i may eat just 1 cookie. Every day is different. It depends on how i've slept, what else i've eaten, where i am in my monthly cycle hormonally,etc.
I would not enjoy life if i had to completely cut off an entire group of products out of my life.
Eating a whole pack of cookies and that is moderating yourself?
Carry on.
yes it is. There are packs that only have 6 cookies inside. If i have a cup a of milk, i can easily finish those 6 cookies in 5 minutes or less. So, if i have the calories ,and i have covered all my other needs for the day,and i feel like it, i may eat the whole pack. Just like i will eat a whole domino's pizza by myself. But other than that pizza i won't be eating anything else for the day. It's still a choice if i 'm willing to eat a whole pizza and nothing else, or half a pizza and a ''proper'' meal the rest of my day. I am not addicted to it. I can choose to eat or not eat it.
For referance, i eat a domino's pizza about once every 3 months, and i think the last time i ate a whole pack of cookies was about 8 months ago.
Right now I have about 6 packs of cookies in my pantry .They've been sitting there for close to 4 months. About once a month i open a pack and eat 4 cookies a day for 4 days. So to answer your question, yes it is moderating as far as i see it.
Maybe a snowflake or 2 out the but I have never been around a normal weight adult and I've seen eat or they claim to eat whole pizzas at a sitting.
Ever, not just as a "splurge". Seems like a train ticket to weight issues. Just my opinion, I'm sure others will have ones that differ.
I won't say food addiction isn't real, but will say certain foods have addictive like properties. I mean, most people won't eat 3lbs of steamed, plain, broccoli in a sitting, but many will cram a pint of (insert favorite ice cream here) in a sitting. Certain food properties do illicit greater dopamine responses than others, thus increasing the likelihood of repeat intake. Does sound a bit like a drug. I've seen people "withdrawal" from eating chocolate daily, but it's nothing compared to someone drying out from benzo's. I think people just get a little butt hurt when people use the word "addiction". In the affluent part of the world, people who have addictions get looked down on a bit as weak. Jmho... tootles gang.9 -
Walkywalkerson wrote: »@ninerbuff
Call it what you will.
Disorder/ obsession / addiction.
People that are morbidly obese need to be weaned off of highly processed carbs/ sugar/ fatty/ salty foods.
Along with councilling for their 'disorder'
There was a long thread in Debate about whether food addiction is real. This isn't that thread.
Now that I'm a device that makes figuring it out easy: There have been lots of the bolded. If someone wants to debate the addiction question (vs. help OP), maybe go there.
The most recent is probably this one:
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10822150/why-is-food-addiction-so-controversial
A few random other semi-similar past ones (the ones that ran longer):
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10388272/addiction-versus-dependence
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10226257/food-addiction-a-different-perspective
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10650107/fast-food-addiction-can-anyone-else-relate
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10371298/sugar-addiction-like-drug-abuse-study-reveals/p1
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10548746/sugar-addiction-myths
Have fun.
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Walkywalkerson wrote: »@ninerbuff
Call it what you will.
Disorder/ obsession / addiction.
People that are morbidly obese need to be weaned off of highly processed carbs/ sugar/ fatty/ salty foods.
Along with councilling for their 'disorder'
The words disorder, obsession, and addiction have different definitions.
And putting the word disorder in quotes here is problematic, at best. As is your assumption that a morbidly obese person is always eating a diet that is nearly totally composed of “highly processed carbs/ sugar/ fatty/ salty foods.”
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Theoldguy1 wrote: »jennypapage wrote: »There's no such thing as food addiction as far as i am concerned. I don't know anyone who can't stop eating broccoli or beans or any vegetable. We just like sweet things. Our ancestors liked sweet things. Sugar gives us and our brains energy. So we have evolved to eat sugary things .It used to be fruits, now it's cookies and pastries. That being said, i don't have a problem moderating myself. I may eat a whole pack of cookies, or i may eat just 1 cookie. Every day is different. It depends on how i've slept, what else i've eaten, where i am in my monthly cycle hormonally,etc.
I would not enjoy life if i had to completely cut off an entire group of products out of my life.
Eating a whole pack of cookies and that is moderating yourself?
Carry on.
Sometimes disability means nausea. Chronic, or occasional related to medication.
And gosh darn it, cookies have calories. And usually flour, nut butters, oats, milk, and other nutritious ingredients.
So yes. If I choose to eat an entire box of cookies? As long as I take my vitamins, and it’s within my calorie budget over a week’s time? Yes. Not only no worries, but it’s actually doctor recommended under some circumstances. Yes. Straight up heard that advice when my son was young and very ill for a year. Specifically cookies, although chocolate pudding or tapioca has a spot in my current diet also.
There are no bad foods. Period. As long as someone is getting the nutrients they need, and not going over their calorie budget over the long term? No judgment needed. Thanks.
16 -
MargaretYakoda wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »jennypapage wrote: »There's no such thing as food addiction as far as i am concerned. I don't know anyone who can't stop eating broccoli or beans or any vegetable. We just like sweet things. Our ancestors liked sweet things. Sugar gives us and our brains energy. So we have evolved to eat sugary things .It used to be fruits, now it's cookies and pastries. That being said, i don't have a problem moderating myself. I may eat a whole pack of cookies, or i may eat just 1 cookie. Every day is different. It depends on how i've slept, what else i've eaten, where i am in my monthly cycle hormonally,etc.
I would not enjoy life if i had to completely cut off an entire group of products out of my life.
Eating a whole pack of cookies and that is moderating yourself?
Carry on.
Sometimes disability means nausea. Chronic, or occasional related to medication.
And gosh darn it, cookies have calories. And usually flour, nut butters, oats, milk, and other nutritious ingredients.
So yes. If I choose to eat an entire box of cookies? As long as I take my vitamins, and it’s within my calorie budget over a week’s time? Yes. Not only no worries, but it’s actually doctor recommended under some circumstances. Yes. Straight up heard that advice when my son was young and very ill for a year. Specifically cookies, although chocolate pudding or tapioca has a spot in my current diet also.
There are no bad foods. Period. As long as someone is getting the nutrients they need, and not going over their calorie budget over the long term? No judgment needed. Thanks.
I am pretty sure one can find several foods to help one cope with a disability or illness much better than a box of cookies.7 -
@brenn24179 Actually just came by this study today. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2211124721013097
Its interesting. It seems that in this analysis, the intake of a non restrictive HFD, led to an increase of body weight vs a non restrictive LFD. What was very interesting, is that the addition of sucralose and other non nutritive sweeteners, did not increase the energy intake of the rats on the LFD. It did seem to increase liking, but not overall calorie intake. Sorry to pee in the oats of those "artificial sweeteners make you fat people". Ok not sorry. So, they think there is something inside the digestive tract that senses the amount of fat in a food, that increases intake as that percent goes up. While giving up refined sugar and grains, and replacement with fruits and whole grains, might help you lose weight, you might not need to go as far as to give up flour and sugar. Just make sure you are eating ultra low fat and salt things. Plain pasta, sodium free bread, sodium free crackers, ect. Though most people will not really find them too enjoyable in the long run. Maybe switch up added sugar with artificial sweeteners.7 -
Speaking purely from a personal point of view, I believe I have an addictive personality but I’m on the fence about whether I believe food can be addictive. What I do know is, I often found it VERY difficult to moderate my intake of certain kind of foods and my weight yo-yoed for over 30 years. During periods of dieting when I didn’t abstain from any food types, so much of my day was taken up thinking about how much chocolate, ice cream, biscuits, etc, I could allow myself while still trying to eat a good balance of healthy foods as well. I always wanted to eat more sugary ‘treats’, and I was never satisfied as one small bar of chocolate just made me want to eat another. During periods of successful dieting, I was able to control this, and I successfully reached my goal weight on a number of occasions over a 30 year+ period. My problem was I never was able to maintain my weight loss, and usually within about 3 months, I’d returned to my old habits and the weight piled back on.
By the end of 2013, I was hitting 16 stone, I had dangerously high cholesterol, I was struggling to get out of bed and the bath, and I was just generally feeling low about how far I’d let myself go AGAIN. I knew something had to change.
On 1.1.14, I started my final diet. I knew I needed to do something different and I made the personal decision to abstain from what I believed were my trigger foods. For me that was chocolate, sweets, biscuits, cakes and ice cream. On that day, I never, ever thought I’d keep it up for ever but as of today, I have continued to abstain. I am over 6 stones lighter, and have successfully maintained this lower weight for over 6 years. I eat over 2000 calories a day, eat plenty of crisps and other snacks but have to restrain myself from eating a whole pizza more than twice a week!
I know lots of people won’t agree with my choice, but it works for me and I’m happy. Not having to battle with myself every single day about how many biscuits or sweets I can eat, or if I eat a bit of cake in the staff room what will I not eat later, etc, etc, etc is bliss. It wouldn’t be for everyone but it’s the best food decision I’ve ever made. Do I miss sweet treats… yes, occasionally but only occasionally. The benefits of maintaining a healthy weight for over 6 years far outweigh the occasional times when I’d like to go for afternoon tea, or eat a McFlurry!
Sorry if I’ve verged off the OP’s original question too much.5 -
Theoldguy1 wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »jennypapage wrote: »There's no such thing as food addiction as far as i am concerned. I don't know anyone who can't stop eating broccoli or beans or any vegetable. We just like sweet things. Our ancestors liked sweet things. Sugar gives us and our brains energy. So we have evolved to eat sugary things .It used to be fruits, now it's cookies and pastries. That being said, i don't have a problem moderating myself. I may eat a whole pack of cookies, or i may eat just 1 cookie. Every day is different. It depends on how i've slept, what else i've eaten, where i am in my monthly cycle hormonally,etc.
I would not enjoy life if i had to completely cut off an entire group of products out of my life.
Eating a whole pack of cookies and that is moderating yourself?
Carry on.
Sometimes disability means nausea. Chronic, or occasional related to medication.
And gosh darn it, cookies have calories. And usually flour, nut butters, oats, milk, and other nutritious ingredients.
So yes. If I choose to eat an entire box of cookies? As long as I take my vitamins, and it’s within my calorie budget over a week’s time? Yes. Not only no worries, but it’s actually doctor recommended under some circumstances. Yes. Straight up heard that advice when my son was young and very ill for a year. Specifically cookies, although chocolate pudding or tapioca has a spot in my current diet also.
There are no bad foods. Period. As long as someone is getting the nutrients they need, and not going over their calorie budget over the long term? No judgment needed. Thanks.
I am pretty sure one can find several foods to help one cope with a disability or illness much better than a box of cookies.
Are you someone who lives with chronic nausea?
I am.
And I said what I said.9 -
Theoldguy1 wrote: »jennypapage wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »jennypapage wrote: »There's no such thing as food addiction as far as i am concerned. I don't know anyone who can't stop eating broccoli or beans or any vegetable. We just like sweet things. Our ancestors liked sweet things. Sugar gives us and our brains energy. So we have evolved to eat sugary things .It used to be fruits, now it's cookies and pastries. That being said, i don't have a problem moderating myself. I may eat a whole pack of cookies, or i may eat just 1 cookie. Every day is different. It depends on how i've slept, what else i've eaten, where i am in my monthly cycle hormonally,etc.
I would not enjoy life if i had to completely cut off an entire group of products out of my life.
Eating a whole pack of cookies and that is moderating yourself?
Carry on.
yes it is. There are packs that only have 6 cookies inside. If i have a cup a of milk, i can easily finish those 6 cookies in 5 minutes or less. So, if i have the calories ,and i have covered all my other needs for the day,and i feel like it, i may eat the whole pack. Just like i will eat a whole domino's pizza by myself. But other than that pizza i won't be eating anything else for the day. It's still a choice if i 'm willing to eat a whole pizza and nothing else, or half a pizza and a ''proper'' meal the rest of my day. I am not addicted to it. I can choose to eat or not eat it.
For referance, i eat a domino's pizza about once every 3 months, and i think the last time i ate a whole pack of cookies was about 8 months ago.
Right now I have about 6 packs of cookies in my pantry .They've been sitting there for close to 4 months. About once a month i open a pack and eat 4 cookies a day for 4 days. So to answer your question, yes it is moderating as far as i see it.
Maybe a snowflake or 2 out the but I have never been around a normal weight adult and I've seen eat or they claim to eat whole pizzas at a sitting.
Ever, not just as a "splurge". Seems like a train ticket to weight issues. Just my opinion, I'm sure others will have ones that differ.
Just because you've never experienced something doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
When I was my lightest adult weight (ie "normal" BMI) I could polish off a large domino's in one sitting, no problem. Before you say that that was my problem and is the reason I'm now overweight, I also didn't own a car and cycled and walked everywhere, did 6 hours of martial arts a week and spent 1-2 hours in the gym a week. I now don't do all of that, and as an overweight adult, I can no longer eat a whole large domino's pizza.
So, you know, now you can say that you've met someone who, as a normal weight adult, ate a whole pizza in one sitting (and I maintained that normal weight for 3 years and enjoyed a lot of pizza)12 -
I ate an entire medium pizza LAST NIGHT. I am at a BMI of roughly 21. I could not have, ironically, done that when I was heavier. Now? Sure. (That was also the ONLY thing I ate yesterday, because it was a really, really, hectic day.)4
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I don't know whether some people have food addiction. I suspect there's not physical addiction in the same sense as there would be to (for example) addictive narcotics, but there are certainly psychological dependencies, and sometimes cravings. People have associations with food, learned behaviors related to comfort and reward - it can be pretty complicated and fraught.
Agree with this. People can definitely have individual foods they struggle to control for emotion reasons and perhaps a psychological addiction. I also think some can have what could be called an eating addiction, where just the process of eating (esp foods they like, but with bingers and such it can often be anything), where it's essentially a dysfunctional coping method or self medicating of sorts and at least somewhat like substance addictions.
What I don't really believe is that people can be addicted to ingredients, like flour or sugar, or that they are likely to consistently react to every food with those ingredients (or containing starch or sugar, like a plain potato or every fruit) the same, and I certainly don't believe that people are addicted to macros on their own (like carbs or fat).
I do think lots of tasty foods have a combination of macros and ingredients that appeal to various people, so they may well be foods people are drawn to overeat or have issues controlling (especially since the same foods are often high in calories per volume).I think this is my own personal weird thing, but I really, really don't like thinking of it in dramatic terms, myself. It doesn't help me. Mostly, it works better for me to think of it as a fun science-fair experiment, that I should keep working on, using some science and some hard-won self knowledge, until I get the outcome I want. YMMV.
I feel the same.4 -
MargaretYakoda wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »jennypapage wrote: »There's no such thing as food addiction as far as i am concerned. I don't know anyone who can't stop eating broccoli or beans or any vegetable. We just like sweet things. Our ancestors liked sweet things. Sugar gives us and our brains energy. So we have evolved to eat sugary things .It used to be fruits, now it's cookies and pastries. That being said, i don't have a problem moderating myself. I may eat a whole pack of cookies, or i may eat just 1 cookie. Every day is different. It depends on how i've slept, what else i've eaten, where i am in my monthly cycle hormonally,etc.
I would not enjoy life if i had to completely cut off an entire group of products out of my life.
Eating a whole pack of cookies and that is moderating yourself?
Carry on.
Sometimes disability means nausea. Chronic, or occasional related to medication.
And gosh darn it, cookies have calories. And usually flour, nut butters, oats, milk, and other nutritious ingredients.
So yes. If I choose to eat an entire box of cookies? As long as I take my vitamins, and it’s within my calorie budget over a week’s time? Yes. Not only no worries, but it’s actually doctor recommended under some circumstances. Yes. Straight up heard that advice when my son was young and very ill for a year. Specifically cookies, although chocolate pudding or tapioca has a spot in my current diet also.
There are no bad foods. Period. As long as someone is getting the nutrients they need, and not going over their calorie budget over the long term? No judgment needed. Thanks.
I am pretty sure one can find several foods to help one cope with a disability or illness much better than a box of cookies.
Are you someone who lives with chronic nausea?
I am.
And I said what I said.
I had chronic nausea temporarily (for around 6 months) from chemotherapy on a 3-week repeat. Lemon drop hard candy and saltine crackers were lifesavers, in nearly a literal sense. Toward the latter part of each cycle, I could eat more variously and nutritiously, but there's a certain set of extreme circumstances where nutrition gives way to what a person can keep down, in the definition of "healthy eating". The medical team's advice was indeed "eat what you can keep down, and plenty of it if possible". Raw unpeeled veggies were discouraged, strongly, although that advice differs between teams, I think. (It's about how high a load of bad microorganisms a healthy body can tolerate, vs. an immune-compromised one, basically.)11 -
I don't know whether some people have food addiction. I suspect there's not physical addiction in the same sense as there would be to (for example) addictive narcotics, but there are certainly psychological dependencies, and sometimes cravings. People have associations with food, learned behaviors related to comfort and reward - it can be pretty complicated and fraught.
Agree with this. People can definitely have individual foods they struggle to control for emotion reasons and perhaps a psychological addiction. I also think some can have what could be called an eating addiction, where just the process of eating (esp foods they like, but with bingers and such it can often be anything), where it's essentially a dysfunctional coping method or self medicating of sorts and at least somewhat like substance addictions.
What I don't really believe is that people can be addicted to ingredients, like flour or sugar, or that they are likely to consistently react to every food with those ingredients (or containing starch or sugar, like a plain potato or every fruit) the same, and I certainly don't believe that people are addicted to macros on their own (like carbs or fat).
I do think lots of tasty foods have a combination of macros and ingredients that appeal to various people, so they may well be foods people are drawn to overeat or have issues controlling (especially since the same foods are often high in calories per volume).I think this is my own personal weird thing, but I really, really don't like thinking of it in dramatic terms, myself. It doesn't help me. Mostly, it works better for me to think of it as a fun science-fair experiment, that I should keep working on, using some science and some hard-won self knowledge, until I get the outcome I want. YMMV.
I feel the same.
I can overeat things like roasted salted pepitas and roasted dry edamame, which only contain the nut/bean and salt. In my case I know it's the salt + crunch that makes me want to eat more, so do have to be cautious when I eat things like this. However, I would never just eat salt by itself. I also think the act of crunching/chewing hard things in and of itself can be a stress reliever...although unfortunately I wouldn't get the same satisfaction out of eating celery or even an apple (which I love, but don't overeat).1 -
I *have* eaten salt by itself due to cravings. Straight table salt. Pour in hand, toss in mouth. Repeat erratically through day.
However, I should say that:.
a-.) my BP .tends. .to be low
and
b-) my diet overall tends toward pretty low sodium.
Sugar eaten that way though? No. No way.3 -
wunderkindking wrote: »I *have* eaten salt by itself due to cravings. Straight table salt. Pour in hand, toss in mouth. Repeat erratically through day.
However, I should say that:.
a-.) my BP .tends. .to be low
and
b-) my diet overall tends toward pretty low sodium.
Sugar eaten that way though? No. No way.
Now that you mention your BP being low, mine tends to run low, too. Never made that correlation until now.2 -
wunderkindking wrote: »I *have* eaten salt by itself due to cravings. Straight table salt. Pour in hand, toss in mouth. Repeat erratically through day.
However, I should say that:.
a-.) my BP .tends. .to be low
and
b-) my diet overall tends toward pretty low sodium.
Sugar eaten that way though? No. No way.
Ditto to the salt and low blood pressure, although my salt of choice was grey coarse and I nibbled at it.
I felt it was a bad habit (but not an addiction) and gave it up several Lents back and have not picked it back up.
When it comes to sugar though, I want fat with it.3
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