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no sugar or flour, food addiction?
Replies
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Feeling a NEED for food isn't the same as drug addiction, alcohol addiction etc. I'll state it again. If you have an addiction to just about any of those, you STOP the addiction by STOPPING it completely. You CAN'T go back to doing it because addiction will happen again. So how do you stop eating food? You CAN'T. It's an essential in life. Overeating/under eating is a DISORDER.Personally I don't believe there's food addiction. How can you be addicited to something you need TO LIVE? Unlike alcohol, gambling, drugs, etc., food is a necessity. I have yet to see someone sell their body, steal from loved ones, or blow their paycheck on sugar and flour. This is NOT to say there aren't eating disorders. But those differ from actual addiction where more than just therapy is needed.
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Hmmm, but what does sneaking food or grabbing extra indulgences so you can eat them on the way home because you feel you "NEED" them, indicate? Food may not be addicting in itself(my own personal jury is still out on that thought) but that feeling of dopamine sure can be, of losing yourself even if for a few minutes with mindless bingeing, of the soothing feelings that come with eating(as in over or bingeing), albeit passes quickly into guilt.
It can be a fine line of addiction, I believe. Maybe a different level or description of addictive behavior.
Sure, there are many differences but oh so many similarities as well.
People that use dopamine as the reasoning could say the same thing about rollercoasters, petting puppies, pinching babies cheeks, etc. Can those be deemed as addictions?
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IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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Ever heard of prater willie’s? Individuals with this disease are unable to stop eating. They often cannot be left alone or near food. It’s a horrible disease. The inflicted person can eat themselves to death. Isn’t that addiction?1
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Melwillbehealthy wrote: »Ever heard of prater willie’s? Individuals with this disease are unable to stop eating. They often cannot be left alone or near food. It’s a horrible disease. The inflicted person can eat themselves to death. Isn’t that addiction?
First of all, that is an extremely rare genetic disorder. No one here who is claiming to be addicted to food has this disorder.
Second of all, people who do have this genetic disease are not addicted to food. They are afflicted with a constant hunger that can't be satisfied, no matter how much they eat (among many other terrible effects of the disease). They are not craving the food itself...the food gives them no pleasure. They are just trying to knock down a painful hunger.
Not at all the same thing, and not relevant to this conversation.10 -
wunderkindking wrote: »There are people who are 'abstainers' who find it easier to give up things than to eat them in moderation.
That's me! And unfortunately, it can lead down a very dark path to disordered eating, believe me. That's why I've been giving myself such baby-step leeway in my current weight-loss path--because I'm not just losing weight, I'm teaching myself how to do it in moderation, without triggering my ED. Because here's the thing...while some foods can seem/feel "addictive," so TOO can the act of fasting--or even certain types of restriction. When I was struggling with disordered eating, I was vegetarian, then vegan, then gluten free, etc. It felt a lot "easier" to simply remove whole food groups than to practice moderation and mindfulness.
Now, I'm improving not only my health, but my whole RELATIONSHIP with food. I use MFP to count calories to make sure I don't go BELOW a certain amount, too; to make sure I get the nutrition I need and ALSO to deliberately go above my caloric goal so that I can get in the practice of doing it without feeling like it's some kind of failure.
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Walkywalkerson wrote: »Food addiction / obsession is very real IMO
How do people get so out of control with their weight - weighing over 600lbs etc ..without it?
Medicating whatever emotional disorder they have with food until they're bedbound.
If that isn't addiction I don't know what is!
Watch the short series "Dope Sick" and you will know what addiction is.
Eating disorders are very real and there are almost always underlying emotional issues that lead to them...but food itself isn't an addiction. There is a difference between disorder and addiction.7 -
Melwillbehealthy wrote: »Ever heard of prater willie’s? Individuals with this disease are unable to stop eating. They often cannot be left alone or near food. It’s a horrible disease. The inflicted person can eat themselves to death. Isn’t that addiction?
One of our friends eight year old child has prater willie's. It is not an "addiction", it is a very rare genetic disorder where the brain does not signal fullness or to stop eating. It isn't craving or enjoyment or satisfying some endorphin rush. The kid was born with it. People aren't born with addiction.6 -
I think we are getting hung up on the word "addiction" because we associate it with drugs or alcohol, but I do believe sugar can be an addictive substance because it does have an effect on the brain as well as hormones like insulin. There's a great segment on the Netflix series "Explained" about sugar and it's well worth watching. For some people, sugar at the very least is something used to raise the brain chemicals and hormones that make us feel better/happy and at the worst may be an addiction in the true sense of the word.7
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kdesilva19 wrote: »I think we are getting hung up on the word "addiction" because we associate it with drugs or alcohol, but I do believe sugar can be an addictive substance because it does have an effect on the brain as well as hormones like insulin. There's a great segment on the Netflix series "Explained" about sugar and it's well worth watching. For some people, sugar at the very least is something used to raise the brain chemicals and hormones that make us feel better/happy and at the worst may be an addiction in the true sense of the word.
Everything affects hormones. Protein stimulates insulin production just as much as sugar, does that mean chicken is an addictive substance? What people call sugar addiction, if it can be called that, is not a chemical dependency, and is not specific to sugar. It's most likely a set of habits built around specific foods and the list of foods is specific to the individual, some of which happen to have sugar among other things. You may like chocolate and overeat it because it tastes good, but I doubt you're guzzling BBQ sauce for your sugar fix if chocolate isn't available.10 -
kdesilva19 wrote: »I think we are getting hung up on the word "addiction" because we associate it with drugs or alcohol, but I do believe sugar can be an addictive substance because it does have an effect on the brain as well as hormones like insulin. There's a great segment on the Netflix series "Explained" about sugar and it's well worth watching. For some people, sugar at the very least is something used to raise the brain chemicals and hormones that make us feel better/happy and at the worst may be an addiction in the true sense of the word.
Anything pleasurable releases dopamine...so anything that is enjoyable is addictive.8 -
The term "food" is what's wrong here, imo. You will rarely find an addictive eating behavior centered around ALL food - it's going to be types of foods high in specific substances, like sugar, salt or fat, which trigger chemical reactions in the brain. No one binges on fresh greens or grilled chicken breasts. So, it's not that a person is addicted to food in general, they are addicted to the substance in specific food items, which is why abstinence of certain foods (their triggers) seems necessary for some people. In this way, it is no different from any other addiction. A recovering gambling addict may abstain from triggers too, as will any other recovering addict, whether that addiction is to heroin or pornography.
if any behavior is done compulsively with a lack of control in regulating the behavior despite the fact that this behavior causes social, financial, physical or psychological problems, then that behavior is addictive.
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What's an "addiction" totally depends on how you define "addiction," which is not well defined and has no professional consensus, so debating if food addiction even exists is kind of moot because the psychological world has totally moved away from the term "addiction" altogether and instead favours "substance use disorder."
As for nitpicking whether food is addictive or not, it doesn't matter. What matters is if the protocols for treating substance use work for treating people with compulsive eating patterns, because what matters in the medical world is what works.
12 step programs have had a strangle hold on what the general public thinks about addiction, but in reality, the mental health and medical world have their own scientific, evidence based, empirical stances on the matter.
As do the companies who make highly processed foods. In fact, historically, some of the biggest companies have been owned by cigarette companies, and those companies have been *very* concerned about whether or not their products can be considered "addictive" or not.
For anyone who wants a better understanding of the debate behind whether or not processed foods can be considered "addictive," the book Hooked by Michael Moss covers this debate, the history, the legality, the medical perspective, and the strategies that food companies have utilized specifically to avoid any degree of legal accountability for any kind of purposeful intent to make their products addictive.
This is not a black and white question, because there are no black and white definitions.7 -
What's an "addiction" totally depends on how you define "addiction," which is not well defined and has no professional consensus, so debating if food addiction even exists is kind of moot because the psychological world has totally moved away from the term "addiction" altogether and instead favours "substance use disorder."
As for nitpicking whether food is addictive or not, it doesn't matter. What matters is if the protocols for treating substance use work for treating people with compulsive eating patterns, because what matters in the medical world is what works.
12 step programs have had a strangle hold on what the general public thinks about addiction, but in reality, the mental health and medical world have their own scientific, evidence based, empirical stances on the matter.
As do the companies who make highly processed foods. In fact, historically, some of the biggest companies have been owned by cigarette companies, and those companies have been *very* concerned about whether or not their products can be considered "addictive" or not.
For anyone who wants a better understanding of the debate behind whether or not processed foods can be considered "addictive," the book Hooked by Michael Moss covers this debate, the history, the legality, the medical perspective, and the strategies that food companies have utilized specifically to avoid any degree of legal accountability for any kind of purposeful intent to make their products addictive.
This is not a black and white question, because there are no black and white definitions.
Funny, I was just thinking of Michael Moss's earlier book, "Salt, Sugar, Fat." Back then, deliberately making food addictive was a desirable strategy on the part of the food manufacturers. Spoiler: the manufacturers certainly consider some foods addictive.5 -
Despite poor choices I am drawn to make, I have been intrigued by food and nutrition. As a project during my BME degree, I even created software that would do dietary nutritional analysis of the user. This was before there was any such thing. Think 1982/83. I remember my professor kept my code. Too bad I did not have some foresight, but that is just not me.
Anyhow, in the early 2000-teens, i was doing a readings and such and definitely came across info similar to the Micheal Moss info. It might even have been him, but I have no idea. I remember that there were compelling arguments for how sugar can behave like a drug and its addictive nature. Meanwhile, DD was studying neuroscience at Harvard, and in a particular course, she had to do a research paper on some sort of addiction. Was the students to choose, but the professor had to approve. DD and I discussed the concept of sugar. She presented the idea to the professor, and it was not permitted. His claim was that sugar cannot be addictive. Do with that what you may. I thought the position was poor since wouldn't there be value in whatever argument DD was able to put together. I don't recall what she wrote about instead.
Myself, I personally feel food can be addictive for some, just like alcohol. But maybe my definition of addiction and additive behaviors is looser than the scientific definition. It is certainly a problem for me, and has been since I was a child.
I need to go back and read this thread from the beginning. Will be interesting.
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Despite poor choices I am drawn to make, I have been intrigued by food and nutrition. As a project during my BME degree, I even created software that would do dietary nutritional analysis of the user. This was before there was any such thing. Think 1982/83. I remember my professor kept my code. Too bad I did not have some foresight, but that is just not me.
Anyhow, in the early 2000-teens, i was doing a readings and such and definitely came across info similar to the Micheal Moss info. It might even have been him, but I have no idea. I remember that there were compelling arguments for how sugar can behave like a drug and its addictive nature. Meanwhile, DD was studying neuroscience at Harvard, and in a particular course, she had to do a research paper on some sort of addiction. Was the students to choose, but the professor had to approve. DD and I discussed the concept of sugar. She presented the idea to the professor, and it was not permitted. His claim was that sugar cannot be addictive. Do with that what you may. I thought the position was poor since wouldn't there be value in whatever argument DD was able to put together. I don't recall what she wrote about instead.
Myself, I personally feel food can be addictive for some, just like alcohol. But maybe my definition of addiction and additive behaviors is looser than the scientific definition. It is certainly a problem for me, and has been since I was a child.
I need to go back and read this thread from the beginning. Will be interesting.
Lol, yeah I was doing my neuroscience degree back in the 2000s, and yeah, A LOT has changed since then, especially when it comes to medical perceptions of addiction.
Just yesterday I was reading a brand new neuroscience textbook and marveling at how much has changed in 20 years. Even basic neuroanatomical concepts are wildly different than what we learned in the early 2000s.2 -
I think one of the difficulties of this discussion is just what is meant by "addiction." I think a lot of times people end up talking past each other.5
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Despite poor choices I am drawn to make, I have been intrigued by food and nutrition. As a project during my BME degree, I even created software that would do dietary nutritional analysis of the user. This was before there was any such thing. Think 1982/83. I remember my professor kept my code. Too bad I did not have some foresight, but that is just not me.
Anyhow, in the early 2000-teens, i was doing a readings and such and definitely came across info similar to the Micheal Moss info. It might even have been him, but I have no idea. I remember that there were compelling arguments for how sugar can behave like a drug and its addictive nature. Meanwhile, DD was studying neuroscience at Harvard, and in a particular course, she had to do a research paper on some sort of addiction. Was the students to choose, but the professor had to approve. DD and I discussed the concept of sugar. She presented the idea to the professor, and it was not permitted. His claim was that sugar cannot be addictive. Do with that what you may. I thought the position was poor since wouldn't there be value in whatever argument DD was able to put together. I don't recall what she wrote about instead.
Myself, I personally feel food can be addictive for some, just like alcohol. But maybe my definition of addiction and additive behaviors is looser than the scientific definition. It is certainly a problem for me, and has been since I was a child.
I need to go back and read this thread from the beginning. Will be interesting.
Lol, yeah I was doing my neuroscience degree back in the 2000s, and yeah, A LOT has changed since then, especially when it comes to medical perceptions of addiction.
Just yesterday I was reading a brand new neuroscience textbook and marveling at how much has changed in 20 years. Even basic neuroanatomical concepts are wildly different than what we learned in the early 2000s.
Interesting insights!0 -
I suppose it can be considered an addiction to food, or rather the ingredients in said food. I have done some digging and discovered that sugar can trigger a dopamine response the same way illicit drugs can. or social media for that matter.
And since there are a lot of ingredients that are sugar but don't advertise that they are sugar, like high fructose corn syrup it turns out that sugar is in a lot of products.
I suppose being aware of this can reduce it. I don't really know, for me I had to just cut it out.1 -
makinlifehappen wrote: »I have done some digging and discovered that sugar can trigger a dopamine response the same way illicit drugs can. or social media for that matter.
This has been discussed at length in the thread and is somewhat misleading, as basically anything pleasurable does, and eating generally does.
Like I said above, I think part of this is that people mean different things by "addiction," but I think people can be addicted (as I understand it) to lots of things -- it doesn't require a physical dependence -- and I do think eating is one, or perhaps specific eating behaviors or foods that you perceive as especially palatable. I think there is some overlap or closeness between addictive-type behaviors and eating disorders. But I do not think it is accurate to claim that specific components of foods are akin to highly dependence-forming drugs, as people often do (or even addictive drugs more broadly). If one looks at the eating behaviors in question, it is nearly always more complicated than sugar is addictive or fat is addictive or carbs are addictive or salt is or whatever. Indeed, nearly always there are specific foods that may be ones the person has trouble controlling or may trigger a binge or whatever, but this does not hold true across all foods that have the ingredients or components in question. For example, someone may have trouble moderating donuts or eat them to the point of bad consequences (feeling sick or the like), but have zero issues with straight sugar or, say, a banana. That to me suggests that the argument that it's a physical response to a component that creates a physical response as an explanation is wrong, and same with focusing on sugar as if foods with sugar were uniquely prone to being involved in these kinds of eating behaviors. But that doesn't mean one cannot have addictive or addictive-like behaviors involving foods or eating IMO.6 -
It will depend...I don't have any problem with flour but I do have with sugar. It's like, if I will eat something with sugar, I WILL want more, it is way harder to stop. But then I know people who have no problem with this.
That's why when I am at home, I barely eat sugar (except from fruits, I don't mind that). I will still eat dark chocolate since that usually has barely any sugar and I bake my own cookies (sugar free). But if I go out with friends, I won't abstain from eating a real ice cream or piece of cake. But after all it was proven than sugar can be addictive, so you gotta be mindful with it1 -
I wonder by what metrics to people that view it as addictive measure it, and what would falsify the belief there's an addiction?
I recently saw that for years, there's actually been decent evidence that porn addiction doesn't really exist, yet people still believe in that. The evidence is that there isn't a correlation between amount of consumption / viewing time, and associated feelings of addiction. Instead, the best predictor of reporting feelings of addiction is actually religiosity - suggesting people aren't addicted so much as feeling guilty over moral incongruence.
I wonder to what extent there is an actual predictive correlation for food addiction. Like has there ever been shown to be feelings of food addiction independent of feelings of about one's weight? Might be too hard to disentangle something like I suppose.2
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