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no sugar or flour, food addiction?
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@LifeChangz Yes we did. We are doing IF at least 16:8 now naturally. We concluded a 49 hour water fast (a beginner version with some fat in our coffee and tea) last week to further attempt changing our bodies sugar reliance, cravings, hunger set points. It really helped and we already feel better. ***everyone do your research and speak to your physicians before attempting any prolonged fast*** The more we lose the easier the limitations are becoming. There is study based info out there for all to seek, read, pursue, find and decide, but some is on brain receptors getting ‘clogged’ by sugar fat salt in the modern processed foods diet. Dietary input changes, detoxification, cellular regeneration, blah blah can lead to ‘unclogging’ those receptors leading to reduction/elimination of bad behaviors in all aspects of a life, depression, anxiety, brain fog, immune response, inflammation, high blood pressure, elevated A1C (type 2 diabetes), insulin resistance, eating habits, lack of energy, Alzheimer’s/dementia, arthritis, erectile dysfunction, libido related issues, cancer, etc. A very interesting rabbit hole to spend time in to say the least. I may have spent a week of my life obsessing on all the studies out of academia and teaching hospitals.
The last time we lost weight and pursued healthful eating, we broke our diet and ‘splurged’ on KFC. We were sick for a day from the sudden and huge influx of sugar, fat and salt. We are not going to make that mistake again. You don’t realize the pull, the urge, the cravings exist when you constantly give in to them. You think you feel good, you are fine, don’t know what all the anti-sugar, fat and salt folks are speaking of. Then you eliminate in your diet and start singing Amazing Grace. I was blind but now I see! You end up getting cranky, feeling ill and getting headaches during the initial detoxing week or so.
So do we do everything perfect yet, no. But we can see and feel the difference in our bodies and our pre-existing conditions. Getting off the sugar, fat, salt train has allowed this “diet” to actually be referred to as a “healthy eating plan” instead of a four letter word indicating suffering and sacrifice.2 -
ty @DebbsSeattle
so as to addictive behaviour driven through excess/voracious appetite resulting from an excess amount (threshold of tolerance may vary) some combination of sugar/carbs, fat and/or salt (aka sometimes described as hyper palatable foods)... my experience with these types of food and appetite drive physical responses and behavioral responses similar to use, abuse and dependence on cigarettes.
a couple thoughts, tolerance and physical/emotional dependence and abuse can be progressive/worsens over time for those hooked. damage to persons ability to function and health becomes progressively impaired and can lead to death. this progressive quality is/was true for me personally with both food and cigarettes, in a remarkably similar progression and in difficulty to stop: both physically and behaviorally/emotionally.
not all people are susceptible to an addictive response to these substances, like not all people who drink become dependent alcohol abusers.
in the absence of the particular "emotionally desired food" ~ perhaps we rarely see people eating out of the trash or stealing to acquire additional food(s) simply because alternative choices are often generally cheap and abundant. I would liken this to having a preference for a particular brand of beer (or food). when the desired brand is unavailable, many other choices are available, so the dependence continues as long as the person uses an equivalent substance. it is in the stopping use that withdrawals begin; use of various substances have different withdrawal symptoms and severity. for me, withdrawals from cigarettes and certain thresholds of food combinations salt, sugar/carbs &/or fats (aka hyper-palatable foods) - the withdrawal symptoms physically, emotionally, intensity and duration are remarkably similar for me personally.
it occurs to me, that to dismiss or deny the possibility that dependence/abuse of food is a real thing is to dismiss it in the way alcohol and drug abuse was dismissed as not real and/or a moral/behavioral failing before those difficulties were accepted as real issues/addictions with all the related treatment, support and understanding/empathy to become a normative approach and acceptance in the medical community and in broader society. we have begun to include other substances/behavioral issues like cigarettes/vaping, sex, gambling, shopping... but in large part, there is a refusal to recognize comparable difficulty with food that some people unfortunately develop.
jmho.
*edited to correct autocorrect.. for example, it changed vaping to baking...oh the irony... lol
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Well the difference is is that people who are addicted to substances, don't need them. You CANNOT go without food, so how does a food "addict" cut out their addiction like others have to do with their addictions? This is why food is not an addiction. I think of it more as a disorder. And there are food disorders.LifeChangz wrote: »ty @DebbsSeattle
so as to addictive behaviour driven through excess/voracious appetite resulting from an excess amount (threshold of tolerance may vary) some combination of sugar/carbs, fat and/or salt (aka sometimes described as hyper palatable foods)... my experience with these types of food and appetite drive physical responses and behavioral responses similar to use, abuse and dependence on cigarettes.
a couple thoughts, tolerance and physical/emotional dependence and abuse can be progressive/worsens over time for those hooked. damage to persons ability to function and health becomes progressively impaired and can lead to death. this progressive quality is/was true for me personally with both food and cigarettes, in a remarkably similar progression and in difficulty to stop: both physically and behaviorally/emotionally.
not all people are susceptible to an addictive response to these substances, like not all people who drink become dependent alcohol abusers.
in the absence of the particular "emotionally desired food" ~ perhaps we rarely see people eating out of the trash or stealing to acquire additional food(s) simply because alternative choices are often generally cheap and abundant. I would liken this to having a preference for a particular brand of beer (or food). when the desired brand is unavailable, many other choices are available, so the dependence continues as long as the person uses an equivalent substance. it is in the stopping use that withdrawals begin; use of various substances have different withdrawal symptoms and severity. for me, withdrawals from cigarettes and certain thresholds of food combinations salt, sugar/carbs &/or fats (aka hyper-palatable foods) - the withdrawal symptoms physically, emotionally, intensity and duration are remarkably similar for me personally.
it occurs to me, that to dismiss or deny the possibility that dependence/abuse of food is a real thing is to dismiss it in the way alcohol and drug abuse was dismissed as not real and/or a moral/behavioral failing before those difficulties were accepted as real issues/addictions with all the related treatment, support and understanding/empathy to become a normative approach and acceptance in the medical community and in broader society. we have begun to include other substances/behavioral issues like cigarettes/vaping, sex, gambling, shopping... but in large part, there is a refusal to recognize comparable difficulty with food that some people unfortunately develop.
jmho.
*edited to correct autocorrect.. for example, it changed vaping to baking...oh the irony... lol
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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@ninerbuff - after a bit of a delay for pondering your comments, yes, I would agree with you that there is a difference as you point out.
But then I diverge from there. For large part, addiction or disorder may well be semantics of characterization. People can have different characteristics and responses/withdrawals symptoms and intensities to different substances
Nods, we can't quit eating but we can adjust the types of foods we eat so that the food does not continue to trigger a voracious appetite and increasing tolerance similar to increasing tolerance of alchohol, drugs or cigarettes.
People can't stop eating all food, but, as I ponder this thought... i don't think it negates the experience of people who express that they suffer addiction like responses to some thresholds of some sorts of foods (speaking here of some threshold/Excess of some types(s) or combo of foods such as salts, fats & sugar - think frosting or ice cream or candy bars, fast food, aka hyper-palatable foods)
further in thought, i would equate an addictive response in the body to some combo of foods to the people who suffer some sort of other intolerances - such as nut allergies or shellfish allergies. The body needs food but not those foods. Think we would not dismiss their personal problems with foods like nuts or shellfish. In the same way, think we should not dismiss people's statements that they have a problem (physically or emotionally) with other foods.
On a personal note, I would note that it is utterly discouraging for a person who suffers to be dismissed or denied the very existence of the problem they are trying to express is a problem, and still, to this day - people who are very overweight face social stigma and judgements that they are suffering from a moral failure and nothing otherwise - very similar to how people who got hooked on alcohol and/or drugs and/or cigarettes were dismissed. For me, the physical symptoms I experience parallels both tolerance/active use and the withdrawal symptoms from cigarettes. It just is, and finally, people are talking about how to deal with it instead of dismissing it out of hand.4 -
Well said, @LifeChangz
I have been saying the exact same thing in these forums for over ten years. @ninerbuff is one of the people who will dismiss out of hand any suggestion that this is a real phenomenon regardless of how many other people try to explain their position and experience(s.) He will post the same thoughtless post any time there is this discussion. He is deliberately shut down and dismissive and then tries to hide behind his personal trainer title as if that is some entitlement for rudeness or some corner on The Truth. Sorry, ninerbuff, I generally like your posts on other topics but this feels bully-ish after all these years and the hundreds of people suffering who have posted looking for help only to be told they're wrong and to use their food scale etc. I wonder how many people have left these forums in despair who could have been helped?
LifeChangz, the biggest problem seems to be peoples' reaction on both sides to the word "addiction." I still feel food compulsion is an addiction - but many people have hysterical reactions to that word. To the point that some people have gotten banned from posting in these forums over arguing about the nuances of the word "addiction" when applied to food. It's really an inflammatory word. Even though that is what it feels like to me and no one can or should invalidate my experience, they cannot get their (closed) minds around addiction as it applies to anything other than drugs or alcohol. It's really bizarre to me that people get so worked up and feel they absolutely MUST tell everyone, "It's not an addiction!!!" but it's just not quite an accepted concept in mainstream thinking. Yet. A lot of progress has been made both on these forums and in science so we're getting there.
I've stopped going into such careful and thoughtful posts as yours because I got so tired of people saying, "Oh, come on, you can have just one." There used to be multiple people who would jump in with their, "It's not an addiction if you're not stealing for it or dying of withdrawals," and their acrimoniousness was bad enough to get more than a couple of them banned from the site. Yes, I've stolen candy - many times. The withdrawals are more subtle, to be sure, but there are physiological/neurological/psychological withdrawals. Some people are hospitalized when they eat themselves into life-threatening conditions.
No on alcohol, no on drugs, no on cigarettes and NO on having ice cream or cookies in the house and eating one reasonable serving. Can't/won't and discussion over.
"A" serving of ice cream is the whole container. Same with cookies, baked goods, French bread, and chips.
I do wish you luck on convincing people that your experience is valid and that food compulsion is not a weakness to be overcome by thinking in some sort of way. I am on your side.
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thank you @cmriverside ~ much to ponder, gathering thoughts
~ i have actually read through the discussions, followed the links, read those, and totally get what you are saying
more to follow... cheers 0 -
@cmriverside ~ thank you again for your reply
a few thoughts to share, don't mean to ramble but it is hard to find the words and be concise on this because the technical stuff makes my eyeballs roll back in my head ~ i did read back and follow the links and read those discussions as well on the subjects of food/sugar/carb addiction ~ and the discussions were certainly vigorous... manyof the points and research are quite deep and technical - I am ok with that kind of information as it can provide a basis for the conclusions and upshot which is what continues to be vigorously discussed most everywhere as to the real nature/characteristics of the idea of food addiction. There just doesn't seem to be consensus yet. For me, I fall on the side of the arguement that food/carb/hyper-palatable foods can and are addictive for some, like alcohol is for some, not all.
on a personal note - discussions and thoughtful posts have made a profound difference in my life - providing information that led to recognition/identification of my own personal eating patterns. So, I agree that dismissing/denying even the possibility can be discouraging and intimidating for people who aren't up to joining the discussion - it took me a long time to read back through and begin to form my thoughts.
I think it would be helpful to be able to have conversations that start from the point food addiction exists and what can help a person deal with it. Acknowledging the problem does not mean the person is powerless to change it - it is a starting point to begin changing it - which is a first step in helping people with addictions. I would wish the same kind of non-judgmental approach to be broadly available for all the people who express a need for help beyond the typical 'diet' advice to simply eat less and move more (cico) response. CiCo is definitely part of the essential understanding and approach, but just a part - there is so much more to breaking emotional/physical dependence....
on a personal note, I think I first encountered emerging information about the chemical response and possible addictive nature of the responses in the brain and body in the book 'the end of overeating' by Kessler - and for the 1st time, some research validation of the 'physical' nature of what I had been trying to describe to my doctors since I was a teenager.... that I would get a physical withdrawal type 'crawl the wall' agitation. Most typically, they would physically pat me on the knee or forearm, tell me I would be alright and give me the advice to just watch my portions/eat less and move more. Well, if that advice were effective, that advice would have resolved my problem years ago... it simply just did not, again, I think because it is part of good advice for dealing with it from an addiction perspective/model but there are other helpful steps to take as well.
In other words/repeating ~ As the discussion of food addiction continues to be argued, I find it interesting that the way alcoholic/alcoholism is described is also evolving to new terms 'alcohol abuse' ~ 'drug abuse and dependence' and 'cigarette abuse and dependence' ~ My personal experience parallels cigarette abuse/tolerance, dependence and withdrawals and the behavioral relearning to live without use and dependence. All of the addictions have various characteristics of chemical impact, tolerance, withdrawal symptoms and perhaps in intensity.... A lessor or missing characteristic does not negate the validity of the other addictions or 'use/abuse and dependancy' of the other chemicals. For food, behavioral and chemical responses have been studied and demonstrated with animals but not yet humans? There is a need for human study on this but for me, lack of human trials does not negate the possiblity of food addiction and I look forward to more emerging information and research and from there, to more acceptance and help for those who suffer.
ps (edit to add) ~ i agree @cmriverside regarding moderation/eat just 1 or intuitive eating may not be an effective strategy for people who are struggling with impulsive OVEReating/food addiction eating. For me, 2 bites of a cookie does not satisfy - it ignites overwhelming urges to eat like pouring kerosene on a fire.4 -
While the definition of "addiction" differs among authors, I tend to agree with this. It is hard to talk about food *addiction* since there is a genuine food *requirement* if one wants to stay alive. I see it more as *product* addiction. Even people with alcohol addiction, for example, are often drawn to one or a few specific products, and not to others, even if they contain alcohol.
Well the difference is is that people who are addicted to substances, don't need them. You CANNOT go without food, so how does a food "addict" cut out their addiction like others have to do with their addictions? This is why food is not an addiction. I think of it more as a disorder. And there are food disorders.LifeChangz wrote: »ty @DebbsSeattle
so as to addictive behaviour driven through excess/voracious appetite resulting from an excess amount (threshold of tolerance may vary) some combination of sugar/carbs, fat and/or salt (aka sometimes described as hyper palatable foods)... my experience with these types of food and appetite drive physical responses and behavioral responses similar to use, abuse and dependence on cigarettes.
a couple thoughts, tolerance and physical/emotional dependence and abuse can be progressive/worsens over time for those hooked. damage to persons ability to function and health becomes progressively impaired and can lead to death. this progressive quality is/was true for me personally with both food and cigarettes, in a remarkably similar progression and in difficulty to stop: both physically and behaviorally/emotionally.
not all people are susceptible to an addictive response to these substances, like not all people who drink become dependent alcohol abusers.
in the absence of the particular "emotionally desired food" ~ perhaps we rarely see people eating out of the trash or stealing to acquire additional food(s) simply because alternative choices are often generally cheap and abundant. I would liken this to having a preference for a particular brand of beer (or food). when the desired brand is unavailable, many other choices are available, so the dependence continues as long as the person uses an equivalent substance. it is in the stopping use that withdrawals begin; use of various substances have different withdrawal symptoms and severity. for me, withdrawals from cigarettes and certain thresholds of food combinations salt, sugar/carbs &/or fats (aka hyper-palatable foods) - the withdrawal symptoms physically, emotionally, intensity and duration are remarkably similar for me personally.
it occurs to me, that to dismiss or deny the possibility that dependence/abuse of food is a real thing is to dismiss it in the way alcohol and drug abuse was dismissed as not real and/or a moral/behavioral failing before those difficulties were accepted as real issues/addictions with all the related treatment, support and understanding/empathy to become a normative approach and acceptance in the medical community and in broader society. we have begun to include other substances/behavioral issues like cigarettes/vaping, sex, gambling, shopping... but in large part, there is a refusal to recognize comparable difficulty with food that some people unfortunately develop.
jmho.
*edited to correct autocorrect.. for example, it changed vaping to baking...oh the irony... lol
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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Once I had strong motivation cutting out flour and sugar has been easy for me. Temporarily I am increasing my fat so I feel satisfied while adjusting. I remember giving up sugar and flour for about a year in 2018 and after a couple of weeks sweetened things like yogurt taste way too sweet and there's no more cravings. I am giving my self the option to have up to 2 cheats a month if I make a fasting goal or exercise goal. But the more cheats , the more the cravings come back.1
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Let's call it an allergy to certain types of nutrients.1
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Let's call it an allergy to certain types of nutrients.
LOL, ya mean like a certain 1939 book?
I mean, okay. In 1939 people didn't have a lot of actual info about how the brain works, how neurotransmitters worked, how they were related to the gut and how all that communication happened.
The whole allergy argument was the best they had at that time.1 -
EDUCATION ON THIS SUBJECT IS CRITICAL! I am very concerned about the lack of education in carbs/ sugar addiction. It is a scientific fact that you become addicted to carbs(which is sugar) , just like you get addicted to smoking or other drugs. YES, there is a dependency and it is physical. DISCIPLINE is the only way to get rid of this dependency. Once you do, your real health and weight loss journey can begin!2
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Where's the PEER REVIEWED STUDY backing this claim? I'd love to read it.EDUCATION ON THIS SUBJECT IS CRITICAL! I am very concerned about the lack of education in carbs/ sugar addiction. It is a scientific fact that you become addicted to carbs(which is sugar) , just like you get addicted to smoking or other drugs. YES, there is a dependency and it is physical. DISCIPLINE is the only way to get rid of this dependency. Once you do, your real health and weight loss journey can begin!
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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Where's the PEER REVIEWED STUDY backing this claim? I'd love to read it.EDUCATION ON THIS SUBJECT IS CRITICAL! I am very concerned about the lack of education in carbs/ sugar addiction. It is a scientific fact that you become addicted to carbs(which is sugar) , just like you get addicted to smoking or other drugs. YES, there is a dependency and it is physical. DISCIPLINE is the only way to get rid of this dependency. Once you do, your real health and weight loss journey can begin!
UPDATE: I took it upon myself to research it myself. This is the latest one I could find. I'll read it and review it back later.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5946262/
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
0 -
Where's the PEER REVIEWED STUDY backing this claim? I'd love to read it.EDUCATION ON THIS SUBJECT IS CRITICAL! I am very concerned about the lack of education in carbs/ sugar addiction. It is a scientific fact that you become addicted to carbs(which is sugar) , just like you get addicted to smoking or other drugs. YES, there is a dependency and it is physical. DISCIPLINE is the only way to get rid of this dependency. Once you do, your real health and weight loss journey can begin!
UPDATE: I took it upon myself to research it myself. This is the latest one I could find. I'll read it and review it back later.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5946262/
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Here is the Conclusion, you're only five years behind.5. Conclusions
The results of the current systematic review generally support the validity of food addiction as a diagnostic construct, particularly as it relates to foods high in added sweeteners and refined ingredients. The majority of studies in the current review reported evidence for symptoms related to neurological changes and impaired control, with fewer studies evaluating preoccupation, chronicity, relapse, social impairment, and risky use. Behavioral and substance-related aspects of food addiction appear to be intertwined, but we suggest that the substance (highly-palatable food) component may be more salient to the diagnostic classification of this phenomenon than the behavior (eating). We propose that the food addiction construct merits serious attention in regard to its presentation, prevention, and treatment in humans.2 -
Making food addiction or similar a "diagnostic classification" has HUGE financial and regulatory implications. I'm not sure we'll get there in my lifetime due to insurance companies, food manufacturers, and government programs like Medicare/Medicaid, but I think the pharmaceutical companies will have a hand in changing the diagnostics. There are already several drugs that are able to have an effect on compulsive over-eating, so it should be a great debate.
I believe a diagnostic criteria will happen someday, but a whole lot more nuanced conversation and discussion is going to be needed, IMO. The wheels turn slowly.2 -
cmriverside wrote: »Making food addiction or similar a "diagnostic classification" has HUGE financial and regulatory implications. I'm not sure we'll get there in my lifetime due to insurance companies, food manufacturers, and government programs like Medicare/Medicaid, but I think the pharmaceutical companies will have a hand in changing the diagnostics. There are already several drugs that are able to have an effect on compulsive over-eating, so it should be a great debate.
I believe a diagnostic criteria will happen someday, but a whole lot more nuanced conversation and discussion is going to be needed, IMO. The wheels turn slowly.
So, as usual, we can say --follow the money. And here I thought it made no difference if you were addicted or not. You still have to do the same things.4 -
snowflake954 wrote: »cmriverside wrote: »Making food addiction or similar a "diagnostic classification" has HUGE financial and regulatory implications. I'm not sure we'll get there in my lifetime due to insurance companies, food manufacturers, and government programs like Medicare/Medicaid, but I think the pharmaceutical companies will have a hand in changing the diagnostics. There are already several drugs that are able to have an effect on compulsive over-eating, so it should be a great debate.
I believe a diagnostic criteria will happen someday, but a whole lot more nuanced conversation and discussion is going to be needed, IMO. The wheels turn slowly.
So, as usual, we can say --follow the money. And here I thought it made no difference if you were addicted or not. You still have to do the same things.
Not sure why you quoted me for your non-stance stance? Plus, I don't understand what your point is? uh...
??And here I thought it made no difference if you were addicted or not. You still have to do the same things.
On which side do you fall? ( I mean, it IS the Debate section and all.) As far as I can tell this is your first post in this thread. 0 -
for me - information acknowledging food addiction is real was profoundly helpful. it is a recognition of a real problem, and once it is acknowledged as a problem, then appropriate steps can be taken to deal with it. it also provides a common point of understanding so people who have it can work with other people on it.
on a personal note, for years, i tried to describe the physical nature/symptoms i was experiencing without the language to describe it - to people who did not have an understanding for it and I would get the typical advice to eat less, move more. That may ultimately be the eating and movement end goal, but it is complex beyond that - for someone addicted to alcohol, there is more to stopping and recovering than just never having another drink. That's a drop in the bucket of the complex changing and coping people go through during recovery. I perceive recovery to be way more complex than just eating less, moving more (the CiCo dynamic.) It is a relief to have the information and language to talk about it.1 -
cmriverside wrote: »Making food addiction or similar a "diagnostic classification" has HUGE financial and regulatory implications. I'm not sure we'll get there in my lifetime due to insurance companies, food manufacturers, and government programs like Medicare/Medicaid, but I think the pharmaceutical companies will have a hand in changing the diagnostics. There are already several drugs that are able to have an effect on compulsive over-eating, so it should be a great debate.
I believe a diagnostic criteria will happen someday, but a whole lot more nuanced conversation and discussion is going to be needed, IMO. The wheels turn slowly.
agreed. the newest food pyramid is a good illustration of the influence of big business on regulators. Any particular food company has a goal to make money irrespective of the impact on the health and well being of the consumer, so immediate pleasure is advertised as a selling point. I would guess things won't change until a change is required - think tobacco advertising and regulation changes. Changes did not happen voluntarily.1
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