Please help me understand....motivation/support

collinsje1
collinsje1 Posts: 54 Member
in Health and Weight Loss
Hi All,

I have been on MFP since January 2023 and am doing very very well!!! Started at 293 lbs and am currently at 218 lbs. However, this is my first time posting in the forums.

My question is (and I mean no disrespect or to throw shade at anyone) but what do people mean when they say they need motivation or support?

Like is it just a validation thing? Where people just need to hear.... keep it up, you're doing a good job?

Or is it a thing where people want to hear what they are doing wrong and want to hear ways to fix it?

For example, my wife says that she wants to try to lose weight like I have been, but she needs me to support her. And I don't understand what that means, and she just gets mad when I ask her. Obviously, I do support her doing this I guess I just don't know how to show it.

For me weight loss is logical and straight forward. MFP gives me a number of calories that I can eat for the day, and if I eat at or below that number I will over time lose weight. And I know that if I eat above that number I will maintain or gain depending on how far over I am. So, I don't know how to support someone in doing this, other than literally following them around and telling them don't eat that, or here does this work out, and all that is going to do is cause a huge fight. I guess part of me feels that there is a certain amount of personal accountability in this, and that if said person can be truthful with themselves and stick to a plan that they came up with, nothing I can say or do is going to change that.

So please help me understand what a person means when they say, "I need support/motivation".

Thanks,
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Replies

  • ninerbuff
    ninerbuff Posts: 49,024 Member
    When people ask this, they usually don't want to be ALONE doing it. Most figure that if they are with some like minded people doing the same thing, that they'll be more understanding if something deters them from moving forward.
    It's been said earlier. Motivation is just a start point. One can lose motivation and even the most optimistic person giving all the right reasons, could fail at motivativing that person. Habitual behavior keeps people on track.
    As for support, many times IMO looking at support from people who have their own weight issues doesn't end up being support. Support means actually helping you along by doing things that are conducive to your goal. So things like, go shopping with you to select the right foods or going to the gym with you to workout. Just getting people to say "way to go" is just getting validation and I don't really think they care most of the time if you make it or not. They're worried about their own agenda.
    So it really does just come down to YOU making the decision, being consistent and following behaviors that lead to your goal.

    A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
    IDEA Fitness member
    Kickboxing Certified Instructor
    Been in fitness for 35+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
    9285851.png
  • cmriverside
    cmriverside Posts: 34,454 Member
    LOL, Ann...

    See, I see it as her problem, not his. She knows he loves her, he's being helpful in his somewhat clumsy way. But he can't control her reaction, best bet with weight and wives is No Comment.

    I had a female friend and one day she was wearing her husband's sweat pants. Not the most flattering look, but who cares - we were just sitting around watching TV. The guys weren't even there, it was just her and I. She says, "Do these pants make me look like a cow?"

    Um

    To my defense I was in my twenties, but we were best friends so Imma be honest, right? "Yeah, those kind of pants do that."

    oops.

    She started crying.

    Oh, for Pete's Sake.

    You asked!!!!?!?!

    I still to this day contend that you don't ask a question to a friend if you don't want the answer that you already know is gonna be, "Yes."

    I mean, should have said...what exactly?! ...Three sizes too big sweat pants. C'mon!

    :lol:
  • MsCzar
    MsCzar Posts: 1,072 Member
    edited July 2023
    collinsje1 wrote: »
    ...it just a validation thing? Where people just need to hear.... keep it up, you're doing a good job?
    Or is it a thing where people want to hear what they are doing wrong and want to hear ways to fix it?
    Unequivocally, it is not the latter. :D
    What is your household situation? Who is buying the food? Do you share mealtimes? Go out to eat often? Do you keep less than healthy foods in your house? "Support" will probably hinge on your current situation and your wife's daily challenges.
    To me, support would be someone who helps me keep my eyes on the prize. I like to think of an upcoming event where I'd like to look good. That's often enough to make me put down the fork. Example: "Won't it be great to both get in shape to go kayaking on Lake Watahocee this fall?"
    When I'm faced with tough food choices like free unlimited catering at work, a great sale on my fave frozen pizza or even a good drive-thru discount coupon, I completely forget my weight and health goals. Poof! Gone from my brain! In those moments, I don't want to hear "Don't eat that!" but having a gentle encouraging voice directing me back on track with WHY I want to lose weight or exercise would be extremely helpful.
  • AnnPT77
    AnnPT77 Posts: 34,598 Member
    cmriverside wrote: »
    LOL, Ann...

    See, I see it as her problem, not his. She knows he loves her, he's being helpful in his somewhat clumsy way. But he can't control her reaction, best bet with weight and wives is No Comment.

    Well, yeah, so do I, based on what was written here. (Which is just one side. ;) )

    I don't disagree with you about the best short run tactics, either. But I also think it's potentially a "can't win" for him.

    Maybe it's Pollyanna-ish, but I also think marital issues are inherently systems problems, even if it's All! The! Other! Person's! Fault! (It usually is, AmIRight?) If I want a partnership to succeed long term, I can't take the "shrug, because it's all her/him" position. It's a "keep doing the same thing, expect different results" position, and we know what "they say" about that. Some things are irremediable, others can be improved. I wouldn't start from a position of non-investment in solution-finding . . . because Pollyanna?
    I had a female friend and one day she was wearing her husband's sweat pants. Not the most flattering look, but who cares - we were just sitting around watching TV. The guys weren't even there, it was just her and I. She says, "Do these pants make me look like a cow?"

    Um

    To my defense I was in my twenties, but we were best friends so Imma be honest, right? "Yeah, those kind of pants do that."

    oops.

    She started crying.

    Oh, for Pete's Sake.

    You asked!!!!?!?!

    I still to this day contend that you don't ask a question to a friend if you don't want the answer that you already know is gonna be, "Yes."

    I mean, should have said...what exactly?! ...Three sizes too big sweat pants. C'mon!

    :lol:

    Yup.

  • collinsje1
    collinsje1 Posts: 54 Member
    AnnPT77 wrote: »
    I think there probably as many meanings as people saying that, but also that there may be two broad answers, generic and specific (and maybe 3, because I'm an interfering, opinionated little ol' lady).

    Generically, I think people ask for support or motivation here (from others) because they feel a little lost, maybe have failed before, have bought into the myths that losing weight has to involve suffering (because fat is a sin we need to expiate?!?) so they know they will find it hard to stick through the suffering (extreme diets, punitive exercise regimens), and they are hoping someone else can throw them a lifeline. So many people want to find the weird trick, the hack, the magic, the answer. They may implicitly want it to require not much change in routine habits, because change itself is hard.

    As an aside, you will see old-timers here periodically answer some of these requests with "use methods that aren't so radical and unpleasant that they require constant motivation". (I'm 100% one of those old-timers.)

    A few - I think/hope not most - may also be creating a situation where they have some external person/thing to attribute eventual failure to, so that they can preserve their self-image as someone who tried really, really hard against what turned out to be insurmountable odds. (I'm not saying that's blameful. It's very human. I do think it's sad: In a sense, self-disempowering.)

    That said, it's also true that succeeding at something like weight management, fitness or health improvement is objectively harder if one's whole regular social context doesn't do or support those things. For a time, I used newsletters and reading in responsible web sites to get some of that context, and - big time! - the MFP community.

    Specifically, within a couple, I agree with others that a support request means things like "don't sabotage me" or a bit more positive variation on that. That would include things like not offering/urging food treats, not flaunting your (probably higher) calorie level or progress, diplomatically asking if she wants to be included when you . . . I dunno, go for a walk, or try a new veggie, or whatever . . . then not fussing if she's not ready for that. I do think people need to find their own path, to a large extent.

    That third thing: "Support me but I won't say how" is to me a communicational red flag, a general orientation that can affect other parts of partnered life. I'm not sure how to get around that, short of something like couples' counseling, honestly. I'm widowed now, but was married for 20+ years, reasonably happily. Early on, we needed to work through some similar issues, but it did involve some sharp conflict in the moment. It did eventually reach clarity. We stayed together during the conflicts, and I can't really tell you why, because some people don't.

    If you two have been married a long time, maybe this general situation is more workable for you than for me, because I'd assume the general orientation has been there ("if you cared you'd know what I want"). Speaking only for myself, I do want my partner to feel happy and fulfilled, and I am (was) willing to devote personal energy to that. But I'm a terrible, terrible mind reader - worse than he was, definitely. I need to know what my partner wants, explicitly by them telling me, then I'll go a long way to do that (short of things that compromise personal integrity, ethics, morality, and that sort of thing). YMMV.

    Perhaps not to you, but to me the circumstances you're in now would feel like a minefield, I'm sorry to say.

    Best wishes, sincerely.




    @AnnPT77 I was hoping you would answer this.....you always have great advice and very well thought out responses!!!!! So, thank you!!!'


    I should clarify a few things here.....my wife and I have a very good marriage and for the most part communicate pretty well. This just happens to be one of the things that we struggle to effectively communicate about. As it's been said by others in this thread.........the topic of wives and weight is a touchy one at best. So, I think that's the biggest hurdle her and I have with this.

    Part of this also stems from the fact that I have lost a pile of weight and have done so quite fast and that tends to discourage her.....becasue she hasn't/isn't losing as much as me. And that she thinks it's easy for me " she has said that well its easy for you do lose weight" well fact of the matter is it, isn't easy it's been alot of work and dedication to stay the course. It maybe that she doesnt see my internal struggle with it or the sacrifices that I have made.






    MsCzar wrote: »
    collinsje1 wrote: »

    What is your household situation? Who is buying the food? Do you share mealtimes? Go out to eat often? Do you keep less than healthy foods in your house? "Support" will probably hinge on your current situation and your wife's daily challenges.
    To me, support would be someone who helps me keep my eyes on the prize. I like to think of an upcoming event where I'd like to look good. That's often enough to make me put down the fork. Example: "Won't it be great to both get in shape to go kayaking on Lake Watahocee this fall?"
    When I'm faced with tough food choices like free unlimited catering at work, a great sale on my fave frozen pizza or even a good drive-thru discount coupon, I completely forget my weight and health goals. Poof! Gone from my brain! In those moments, I don't want to hear "Don't eat that!" but having a gentle encouraging voice directing me back on track with WHY I want to lose weight or exercise would be extremely helpful.

    As far as our household situation.......Its me and my wife and 2 boys (6 and 2). We typically keep a running list on the fridge and usually on the weekends whoever is going to town will but the groceries. I dont buy "junk" food but I have no control over what she buys when she shops. And with 2 little kids we avoid restaurants like the plague. I do 98% of the cooking so the main meals are typically what I eat.... usually some type of protein (beef, chicken, pork) (our youngest is allergic to fish so we try to not make that when his is home, although occasionally when he is at the grandparents) and a vegetable to go with it. But its up to her how much she eats, and what she snacks on. With little kids in the house snacky foods are inevitable. She also makes comments about stress eating which I don't fully understand either, your still making a choice to eat something.



    Thanks,
  • cmriverside
    cmriverside Posts: 34,454 Member
    Lietchi wrote: »
    cmriverside wrote: »
    yeah, well that's the bottom line in this whole scenario, springlering.

    I just think in so many marriages it's a two-pronged problem.

    Women complain about XXXX then get mad when the husband is honest, sure...BUT men tend to speak down to their wives and give instructions, when what the woman wants is someone on her team, not a coach.

    Not even about men and women only: probably a general thing when someone complains about something, that the other person starts giving advice when, often, all the person wants is for someone to just listen and let them ventilate their problems.

    yep.

    Jerry Seinfeld said in one of his episodes of Comedians In Cars Getting Coffee, "When you see two homeless guys talking on the sidewalk, you know one of them is giving the other one advice."
  • vivmom2014
    vivmom2014 Posts: 1,649 Member
    cmriverside wrote: »

    In general, don't "fix" stuff, don't tell her how to eat or tricks you've learned unless she specifically asks for THAT.

    Support looks like empathizing, not teaching - especially with something as sensitive as your wife's weight.

    Complete silence after the hug is the best strategy!

    Yes, yes, yes.

    I know that in my own marriage, my husband is wired to FIX things. This is wonderful when something is broken, but no bueno when I just want to say something and be heard. It's the old unwanted advice paradigm. We've gone 'round this mulberry bush about 5000 times in 38 years, but knowledge is power. He's coming around to not fixing me if I don't want it, and I'm coming around to understanding he truly means no harm, no foul when he goes in that direction.


  • kshama2001
    kshama2001 Posts: 28,052 Member
    cmriverside wrote: »
    yeah, well that's the bottom line in this whole scenario, springlering.

    I just think in so many marriages it's a two-pronged problem.

    Women complain about XXXX then get mad when the husband is honest, sure...BUT men tend to speak down to their wives and give instructions, when what the woman wants is someone on her team, not a coach.
    Lietchi wrote: »
    Not even about men and women only: probably a general thing when someone complains about something, that the other person starts giving advice when, often, all the person wants is for someone to just listen and let them ventilate their problems.

    Ha! I was going to answer the first post, but fortunately read the second post first, and realize I, a woman, like to problem solve too. The difference is that I know to ask if female friends want me to problem solve or do they just want to vent. I will warn my partner when I just want to vent, but he complains that he wants to problem solve. (This is now a moot issue as we are out of the toxic situation that created lots of opportunities for venting and problem solving.)
  • kshama2001
    kshama2001 Posts: 28,052 Member
    Here on MFP when people start a thread asking how they can find motivation I reply with this: http://www.wisdomination.com/screw-motivation-what-you-need-is-discipline/

    Not sure if that applies or would be wise for the OP :lol:
  • sollyn23l2
    sollyn23l2 Posts: 1,783 Member
    kshama2001 wrote: »
    Here on MFP when people start a thread asking how they can find motivation I reply with this: http://www.wisdomination.com/screw-motivation-what-you-need-is-discipline/

    Not sure if that applies or would be wise for the OP :lol:

    🤣😂 I tried to click on it.... 🤦‍♀️
  • ninerbuff
    ninerbuff Posts: 49,024 Member
    I've learned how not to fix things when my clients vent to me. It's one thing if it has to do with fitness and health, but a lot of my clients just vent about their home life, work, relationships, etc. As a lot of what I do is head nod, smile and or just apologize. Consequently a lot of my sessions with them get a reoccurring billing because at least while they workout, they get to speak their mind without me being judgemental. I never give opinion or advice unless asked.

    A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
    IDEA Fitness member
    Kickboxing Certified Instructor
    Been in fitness for 35+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
    9285851.png
  • avatiach
    avatiach Posts: 307 Member
    I love the idea of asking her what support looks like to her.

    I will also note that men tend to a) have more calories then women and b) lose weight faster.

    That’s generic but based on height, often true. And it’s just. not. fair. Especially if she doesn’t have a lot to lose.

    So maybe it’s asking if you can approach this as a team.
  • ninerbuff
    ninerbuff Posts: 49,024 Member
    avatiach wrote: »
    I love the idea of asking her what support looks like to her.

    I will also note that men tend to a) have more calories then women and b) lose weight faster.

    That’s generic but based on height, often true. And it’s just. not. fair. Especially if she doesn’t have a lot to lose.

    So maybe it’s asking if you can approach this as a team.
    Well if you're talking a husband/wife losing weight together, the majority of men are likely taller and larger in mass than their spouse. Hence, a bigger person gets to eat more calories. And hormonally, men have more testosterone which affects how much muscle you can retain whether they work out or not versus a female.
    Have to look at it objectively as well. Even males who may need to lose just 20lbs, can struggle after just 5lbs of loss.


    A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
    IDEA Fitness member
    Kickboxing Certified Instructor
    Been in fitness for 35+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
    9285851.png
  • AnnPT77
    AnnPT77 Posts: 34,598 Member
    collinsje1 wrote: »
    AnnPT77 wrote: »
    I think there probably as many meanings as people saying that, but also that there may be two broad answers, generic and specific (and maybe 3, because I'm an interfering, opinionated little ol' lady).

    Generically, I think people ask for support or motivation here (from others) because they feel a little lost, maybe have failed before, have bought into the myths that losing weight has to involve suffering (because fat is a sin we need to expiate?!?) so they know they will find it hard to stick through the suffering (extreme diets, punitive exercise regimens), and they are hoping someone else can throw them a lifeline. So many people want to find the weird trick, the hack, the magic, the answer. They may implicitly want it to require not much change in routine habits, because change itself is hard.

    As an aside, you will see old-timers here periodically answer some of these requests with "use methods that aren't so radical and unpleasant that they require constant motivation". (I'm 100% one of those old-timers.)

    A few - I think/hope not most - may also be creating a situation where they have some external person/thing to attribute eventual failure to, so that they can preserve their self-image as someone who tried really, really hard against what turned out to be insurmountable odds. (I'm not saying that's blameful. It's very human. I do think it's sad: In a sense, self-disempowering.)

    That said, it's also true that succeeding at something like weight management, fitness or health improvement is objectively harder if one's whole regular social context doesn't do or support those things. For a time, I used newsletters and reading in responsible web sites to get some of that context, and - big time! - the MFP community.

    Specifically, within a couple, I agree with others that a support request means things like "don't sabotage me" or a bit more positive variation on that. That would include things like not offering/urging food treats, not flaunting your (probably higher) calorie level or progress, diplomatically asking if she wants to be included when you . . . I dunno, go for a walk, or try a new veggie, or whatever . . . then not fussing if she's not ready for that. I do think people need to find their own path, to a large extent.

    That third thing: "Support me but I won't say how" is to me a communicational red flag, a general orientation that can affect other parts of partnered life. I'm not sure how to get around that, short of something like couples' counseling, honestly. I'm widowed now, but was married for 20+ years, reasonably happily. Early on, we needed to work through some similar issues, but it did involve some sharp conflict in the moment. It did eventually reach clarity. We stayed together during the conflicts, and I can't really tell you why, because some people don't.

    If you two have been married a long time, maybe this general situation is more workable for you than for me, because I'd assume the general orientation has been there ("if you cared you'd know what I want"). Speaking only for myself, I do want my partner to feel happy and fulfilled, and I am (was) willing to devote personal energy to that. But I'm a terrible, terrible mind reader - worse than he was, definitely. I need to know what my partner wants, explicitly by them telling me, then I'll go a long way to do that (short of things that compromise personal integrity, ethics, morality, and that sort of thing). YMMV.

    Perhaps not to you, but to me the circumstances you're in now would feel like a minefield, I'm sorry to say.

    Best wishes, sincerely.




    @AnnPT77 I was hoping you would answer this.....you always have great advice and very well thought out responses!!!!! So, thank you!!!'
    Thank you . . . but also, this quite honestly scares the bejeepers out of me.
    I should clarify a few things here.....my wife and I have a very good marriage and for the most part communicate pretty well. This just happens to be one of the things that we struggle to effectively communicate about. As it's been said by others in this thread.........the topic of wives and weight is a touchy one at best. So, I think that's the biggest hurdle her and I have with this.

    Part of this also stems from the fact that I have lost a pile of weight and have done so quite fast and that tends to discourage her.....becasue she hasn't/isn't losing as much as me. And that she thinks it's easy for me " she has said that well its easy for you do lose weight" well fact of the matter is it, isn't easy it's been alot of work and dedication to stay the course. It maybe that she doesnt see my internal struggle with it or the sacrifices that I have made.

    I think there's serious potential for difficulty in the bolded.

    I do think that everyone has challenges and difficulties in managing weight, but they're all different from one person to the next. I think comparables are unhelpful and in some sense irrational: Is my hard a harder hard than your hard? That's not answerable, IMO. It's all subjective, and our own personal hard is always a harder hard than someone else's, because it's visceral. Add in being a couple, and it's more fraught yet.

    I'd say this in my own case: I don't attribute the slightest blame to him, it's all me . . . but the fact that my physically larger and more active husband could eat more food - bigger portions, richer things - was in reality a thing that contributed to my being overweight/obese in the first place. I knew even then that what I put in my mouth, chewed, and swallowed was 100% on me. But it was hard to see him eat the big portion of tasty things, the rich dessert . . . I ate more than I should've out of envy or FOMO or something. My fault, not his. Factual, nonetheless.

    Still, I think sensitivity to these two issues may be useful: "My hard isn't your hard" and "one of my hards is seeing you able to eat more of tasty stuff and still lose faster".

    It may be irrational, but it takes so little to feel like the more fortunate partner is rubbing it in (even when they're not). Some of what @springlering62 mentioned doing, to not flaunt her higher calorie intake to her husband, may be relevant here.

    If some of how much you get to eat, or how fast you lose doing it, is an irritant - even if irrationally - then you saying anything about it being hard for you, too . . . that's going to be hard to swallow. Yes, not fair. Yes, not rational. I still think it may be the case.

    Stinks to be you, in some respects, and no way to talk about that without seeming unsupportive, maybe.

    If you two can get through this phase, and into a more active, more health-focused joint set of daily habits, I think that has the potential to be pretty magical. Lots of possible potholes in the road on the way, though.

    Wishing you both a smooth-ish way through the challenges!





  • lynn_glenmont
    lynn_glenmont Posts: 10,097 Member
    Looking through this thread, there's a good variety of opinions on what constitutes success expressed by various posters. Maybe in a calm moment you could say to her, "I want to support you in the way you want/need to be supported, but I honestly am not sure what that means in this particular situation. I went on the MFP boards and asked to see if there's some consensus as to what that usually means in a weight loss context, and I got a lot of different answers. It seemed to upset you before when I asked what kind of support you want, but maybe if you looked through this thread, you could point out which posts -- if any -- sound like what you want."

    Obviously you have a better idea than I do how that might go over.

    More generally, in response to your initial question, I think there's a difference between Internet community support, which from my observations does more often than not seem to be asking for moral support, commiseration, and cheerleading, and support IRL. When people make posts complaining about a lack of support from family, it seems to me that they're often talking about something more concrete than moral support (especially from people they live with -- people do sometimes face a lot of verbal opposition to their need to lose weight). They often talk about things like "sabotage" in the form of bringing trigger foods into the house or even buying them specifically for the dieter, undermining efforts to cook healthier, refusing to allow the poster time to exercise, etc.

    Best of luck.
  • ktsj2015
    ktsj2015 Posts: 65 Member
    Me and my husband have needed to lose weight at different times and for different reasons.

    The one thing i can say is it's so much easier to "Stay on Track" when he is onboard. Atm we are both trying to lose weight it's great .... we are both onboard for cooking healthy diet friendly foods, we go for walks together to earn a few exercise cals.

    When my husband is not 'Onboard" because he doesn't need to lose weight.. it's really hard for me to lose weight. Now i understand that he doesn't control what i put in my mouth.. but it's alot harder to be disciplined when he's not being disciplined.

    "Hey hunny to you fancy a takeaway?" .... yes the answer is always yes... i get that he's not forcing me to have a takeway, i could say no... but if he's having a takeaway i'm going to have one too..

    "he sits down and demolishes a cake, icecream whatever..." i will see it... crave it... then find some for myself.

    When he's not onboard and cooks... he'll cook what he fancies. Often he can't tell me how many calories are in it and it's likely to be heavy in calories. He'll dish me a portion up, which is often as big as his portion. Not only am i going to eat the whole portion because it's there.... but because he'll have no idea how many calories are in the food he's just served, i struggle to log it.. i have an "All or Nothing" mentality. If i can't log a meal accurately in my head the whole day has gone out of the window.


    So for me... when i ask for my husband to be supportive i'm not asking for his advice.What i am asking for is even if he's not dieting himself, is for him to be considerate of the fact that i am dieting...

    This generally means...

    1) Not tempting me with "diet unfriendly foods" .. he can still have snacks, treats just don't wave them in my face. He can still have a takeaway but he needs to go to a shop that has diet friendly options or do it on a day i'm out of the house.

    2) When he cooks be mindful that i am dieting so he needs to watch my portion size (Or let me serve my own portion) and either cook things i can calculate the calories in easily (such as chicken and veg) or be able to tell me how many calories there are so i can log it.

    3) Come for walks with me... walks are so much nicer when there is someone to talk to.

    4) Generally support any efforts im making, take over jobs or shift things around so I can do things like go the gym or for a walk.

    Finally remember everyone has a different relationship with food, for some it's very matter of fact mathematical. Some have a complex and emotional tie to food and just because you don't understand it doesn't mean it doesn't make things complicated for them.


  • collinsje1
    collinsje1 Posts: 54 Member
    Thank you everyone for your time and thoughts on this!!!!!
  • csplatt
    csplatt Posts: 1,205 Member
    I also tend to not understand the need for other peoples help. However, I grew up an athlete. So when I need to cut weight, I am returning to something familiar. I associate fitness with strength, relative success, pride. For many people that’s just not the case
  • Mirame23
    Mirame23 Posts: 4 Member
    edited July 2023
    -

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