Do young adults in the UK not want to work?

Amanojaku

The Venus project is about providing opportunity, and emphasizing individuality, creativity,innovativness, there is no uniformality. Opening opportunity for everyone to partake in the greatest challenge we could have. Improving the life and world for everyone. It is not communism socialism facisim capitalism it is a completely new way of social structure using science that has never been applied.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KphWsnhZ4Ag
There also many other videos of Jacque Fresco and the venus project you can watch that will hopefully help understand what it is all about. As well as there website.

Interesting I personally dont know if humans can be that altruistic seems to be in our nature to always want more resources and desire the resources that we are lacking. It would be impossible to fairly divide all resources to every human on this planet. Nice idea though.

We waste so much resource on products built for profit to be thrown away or broke down its called Planned Obsolescence. Like buying a new cell phone every 2 years. In the past before cell phones, telephones were quite efficient and lasted a long time due to design. From what I hear they use to be backed by the telephone company to be replaced of fixed, there was no motive for profit. If a car today was backed by the manufacturer to be repaired and replaced would they be using the same design? I think they would design them to remove the entire engine and place a new one in the vehicle when a problem arises. Send the consumer on there way while parts are replaced and refurbished in factory. I think there is enough resources on the planet even today.
www.phonebloks.com is a good example of how to make a product more viable without waste.

In nature you have grazing herds of animals, they on the surface appear to not be aggressive like a predator. If you removed the available resource that the grazing animal eats they will become aggressive and fight for food and territory that they rely on for there survival. When there is abundance there is passive behavior. I think it is difficult for people to imagine alturistic behavior in other humans because they are basing there opinion from observing our current society and history. Before there was monetary system people would fight for control of resource and land they relied on to survive. There was not an abundance. Today we can grow food in towers using hydroponic, aquaculture to create the abundance of food.

LaserMum

What we don't need in this country is any more "media studies" graduates who think they're the bees knees and think they can cruise straight into a senior position on the back of a a huge sense of entitlement and a mediocre degree.

Exactly..and the problem is all these graduates have a) been groomed to expect higher wages as they're now more qualified (even if it's a qualification in a subject employers don't have the slightest interest in) and b) are loaded up with debt they want to pay off. The last time I had my hair done I nearly choked when my hairdresser stated she was about to start a degree in hair colouring. What?? Why???? Why do you need a bloody degree in a vocational skill like hairdressing?? It's madness - if the vocational courses are good there's no need for it.

:huh: :noway:

Strikes me that any "course" after school now gets called a "degree" which serves nothing other than to further devalue academic qualifications.

I agree. A member of my family "graduated" from their local community college. I think they did a BTEC in something. But they had a "graduation" ceremony - with mortar boards, gowns, the lot! LOL!
When recently discussing my daughter's aspirations of going to Cambridge to read Engineering, this person's mother proudly announced "Our *** can tell her all about what it's like studying for a degree!"
Hmm ... I think there's a difference between Smallville Technical College and the University of Cambridge!
Many people have unrealistic ideas of what their "degree" may be worth. Unless it's from a decent, red-brick university it's not really worth very much. Sorry but that's a reality. Mr Blair sadly gave our youngsters a bum steer on this one. If 50% of people have "degrees" that must mean that the "degrees" are easier to get than they were in the past, otherwise 50% of people would have had degrees in the past - especially when you didn't have to get into debt for them. If the degree is easier to get then it's not worth as much.

2NewHorizons

My daughter is completing a chemistry degree. She's in uni 5 days a week, 8 am to 6 pm some days. She also holds down 2 jobs. I couldn't be prouder and she couldn't work harder.
Let's not single out 'young people'. I'm sure you could find shirkers across all age groups.

SteveJWatson

I was interested until I got to the part in bold - actually what you are describing is a more tradtional form of Anarchism and has been well described - perhaps with slight leanings towards mutualism. You haven't invented anything. :bigsmile:

I did not come up with the concept and design. Perhaps since you seem interested in these type of systems it would be best to research the information presented by Jacque Fresco who has been working on the idea his whole life. (He is now 97yr old)
The concept of emphasizing individuality, creativity, innovativness is rooted in the understanding of how humans learn through there enviroment and cirumstances to create there values. He has several lectures were he explains these things.

Edit: I say this because I have not researched anything about anarchism or mutualism. But if you feel you have a firm grasp of understanding these and see holes in the venus project then get involved and ask questions help them to arrive at a solution to overall problem. This is the only way I see bringing a change.

Begin with William Godwin, then read Proudhon

Then you might want to move on to Bakunin and Most.

I'm not setting you a syllabus, those names should be enough to get you started.

pearson114

You cannot make such sweeping statements like that based on such bias. I wouldn't want to work for an employer like that.

Probably why you've had 2 interviews from 60 job applications.

MeanderingMammal

IMO benefits should be there to help you get by until you find a job, not to sit around and live your life how you want, waiting for the "perfect job" I do think the availability of state help, as well as how much some people get, contributes to some young people not wanting to work. Why work, when you can get the same amount or more doing nothing? Of course there's pride, but not everyone has that.

So back to the original question, beyond vague generalities about the purpose of benefits, which I think few would disagree with. The benefit system contains a number of perverse incentives, the clearest being a threshold at which it's just not cost effective to go into employment, but a wide range of others.

How would you structure it in such a way that it provides a safety net, rather than a choice that one might make?

Well it would be good I think to assess each case individually. I don't really think that's possible right now, given how many people are out of work but I'm sure a start could be made to that. For example, not every person and family is the same. To some, benefits are hardly anything to survive, which is why it's not necessarily good to just go slashing the amount you give. However, for some, people are living a life that I think is more than a person should be getting when they haven't got a job.

Secondly, if someone who is say long term unemployed, can only get minimum wage jobs, and they cannot afford to live on that. I would not be opposed to them taking such jobs and receiving the rest in benefits if that is what it takes. Surely it's better for the person to be out working, and receiving benefits to help them get by, than it is to not be working and claiming full benefits. Then if while they were in that job, sufficient help was provided to help them get training for something they actually enjoy, one day they will have a chance to do that and to support themselves fully.

Sure, some people will never want to work, but by making them take a job and providing the rest in benefits, they will never have the financial issue, and since they're working anyway, you may as well work towards something you enjoy right?

So a bit like the current system then?

The one point I'd make is that an employment choice has to be made by the employer, not the state. So we can never force people in to work unless we have large state industries for the unskilled.

neandermagnon

The Venus project is about providing opportunity, and emphasizing individuality, creativity,innovativness, there is no uniformality. Opening opportunity for everyone to partake in the greatest challenge we could have. Improving the life and world for everyone. It is not communism socialism facisim capitalism it is a completely new way of social structure using science that has never been applied.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KphWsnhZ4Ag
There also many other videos of Jacque Fresco and the venus project you can watch that will hopefully help understand what it is all about. As well as there website.

Interesting I personally dont know if humans can be that altruistic seems to be in our nature to always want more resources and desire the resources that we are lacking. It would be impossible to fairly divide all resources to every human on this planet. Nice idea though.

looking at it from an evolutionary perspective (not having read the above article, just discussing altruism in humans generally) we're a heck of a lot more altruistic than most other species. Other primates don't nurse each other back to health when injured, and they don't share food with each other anything like as much as humans do... bonobos are one of our two closes relatives (the other being the common chimp) and they are more likely to share food and are more empathetic than common chimps but that's mostly because their entire social system is based on sex, i.e. using sex to resolve conflicts and facilitate food sharing.

Humans are extremely altruistic when you look at it in this light, i.e. risking life and limb to help other humans, on a pretty regular basis on a worldwide scale. And the evolution of this kind of behaviour is not limited to modern humans, there's evidence for it (i.e. caring for injured, elderly and vulnerable members of the group who would not have been able to contribute in terms of hunting/gathering) in neanderthals and in early Homo erectus too, so it's something that seems to go back a long way and be fundamentally human.

That said, humans are primates and primates on the whole are self-serving, manipulative, devious, bullying gits, who should not be trusted. They may be co-operative and social, but only in as much as it benefits the individual and will sneakily deceive each other, steal from each other, and have illicit sex (e.g. low ranking males having sex with females out of sight of the dominant individuals) and all kinds of skullduggery, if they think they can get away with it. These kinds of behaviours are more primitive than the altruistic behaviours that, for example, led neanderthals to care for sick, injured and elderly members of the group even though they weren't capable of giving anything back.... but as humans we have both, and humans seem to walk a fine line between altruism and selfishness, with certain individuals falling more on one side of that line than the other.

Amanojaku

Interesting Neandermagnon thanks! I think if you remove the main causes that lead to the selfish behavior in an environment it will allow human altruistic behavior to dominate. In social aspect that being the abundance and availability of resources, securities needed for living.

_EndGame_

I am very fortunate in that I have a business that is relatively successful in the UK

This last few weeks I have been holding interviews to fill a position..the wage is only slightly above minimum wage, but, it is a little above.

I am looking to train this person up into a better skill.

I have not been looking for a rocket scientist or brain surgeon, just someone that would seem to have reliability and some work ethic.

5 people never bothered to turn up for the interviews...3 were late... 1 had the mother phone up to make an excuse.. a few people turned up wearing jeans....2 people actually told me they had to come for the interviews or they would lose their entitlement to social security benefits...

I was hoping to try to help someone from benefits into the workplace. Is it that young adults do not want to work?

Maybe you would be better off posting this on a forum that is aimed at getting people back into work.

A job centre forum perhaps?

As for people turning up just for the fact they won't get their benefits stopped is the work programs people's faults. If you was in a situation where you either go to an interview (regardless whether you're suited for the job or not) and get your pittance every week/fortnight, or not turn up, then starve for the next week or so, then you would turn up, despite wanting the job.

trojanbb

So back to the original question, beyond vague generalities about the purpose of benefits, which I think few would disagree with. The benefit system contains a number of perverse incentives, the clearest being a threshold at which it's just not cost effective to go into employment, but a wide range of others.

How would you structure it in such a way that it provides a safety net, rather than a choice that one might make?

Narrow the margins either end - raise the minimum wage considerably and pay for it by taxing the fat cats and millionaires. Have a maximum earning capacity of, say, £250k. And a minimum of £30k.

I'll have to leave you to crunch the numbers... I'm going to bed.

*****In Tomorrow's MFP Chit Chat Forum: World Peace - How do we achieve THAT, exactly?*****

But thats Socialism! *gasp*

And apparently that would lead to economic meltdown. Glad nobody told the Chinese....

did you mean to imply China has a left leaning economic system?

the Chinese market is more free and more capitalist than any western county has ever been

geebusuk

Why is that a problem? What kind of job were you offering?
I've always worn my best jeans to interviews and no one ever complained. I mean, as long as there are no holes in them... They are standard clothes!

So are tracksuits. And what's the problem with holes in the jeans?
Does it make you less good at the job?

If I go to an interview, I'm looking to impress them - to give the image of the person that does make all the effort needed and more.
That will meet and exceed expectations.
Ok, I have been to an interview in a very cheap suit , when I realised I only had one other and I had already worn that to the first interview. I did get the job as it goes. I wouldn't have considered going in less than a suit
Sure, you can still show your worth in other arguably more important areas; but in a group of applicants, if some did and didn't turn up in formal dress, the ones not in formal dress would certainly be 'marked down' for not making an effort to meet society's expectations for me.

twinketta

My daughter is completing a chemistry degree. She's in uni 5 days a week, 8 am to 6 pm some days. She also holds down 2 jobs. I couldn't be prouder and she couldn't work harder.
Let's not single out 'young people'. I'm sure you could find shirkers across all age groups.

I totally applaud your daughter for her learning and working.

I am not singling out young people, I have found a nice young lad to fill the vacancy I had.

Please remember, I was trying to find a young person to employ.

My question and observation was based on the experience that I had trying to find a young person to attend an interview.

twinketta

Oooh Good news (well for me anyway lol)

One of my customers just phoned to ask if his son can meet for for an interview tomorrow. He is 17yo, I have met him a couple of times before and he always seems like a pleasant and helpful lad...so fingers crossed

Just thought I would update anyone that has been following the thread.

This morning the son of one of my customers came for an interview, dressed smartly btw . He arrived on time yay! He came over as very intelligent and interested in the company and its future. He has a few qualifications from school but is really keen to learn a trade.

So the long and short of it, is, that he is going to start with us next Tuesday. :bigsmile:

So, my advice to any one looking to recruit, it may be better to ask around customers, suppliers, friends etc rather than rely on advertising in the first instance.

As an interesting (or not) aside - I have only ever got one job in my life by seeing it advertised, responding to the advert etc etc - all the others have been by me approaching the company saying - I like what you do, gissajob (heres my CV).

It is an interesting aside, as I also was lucky enough to find employment when I was younger by knocking on doors and asking for a job that did not, at that time, exist.

I also flooded small shop windows with postcards, offering my services to take in laundry for ironing, in order to make ends meet. Along with pet minding services for people that were going on holiday and did not want to leave the pets with a kennel/cattery etc.

geebusuk

It is an interesting aside, as I also was lucky enough to find employment when I was younger by knocking on doors and asking for a job that did not, at that time, exist.

That seems to be some sound thinking and hard work, not luck, from where I'm sitting .

markiend

Benefits have stopped being a safety net and become a hammock

All ages sadly have a % who believe they are entitled, from those getting pregnant to get housing, to those in their 50's who believe they have paid in enough over the years

some people are just lazy but if society hands it out (and we are society) you have to expect a certain number of people from all ages and backgrounds to take advantage

AyeCorona

I think the problem extends beyond young persons. My husband and I own and operate a small business that means we work 70+ weeks and don't have much free time for cleaning. Case in point- when I was interviewing housekeepers for a position in my home, one lady sticks out in my mind. During our initial conversation, I asked about her experience, abilities, etc. All the usual questions/answers. Then we discussed what I was looking for as far as duties (sweep/mop, vaccuum, clean counters and mirrors), frequency of her visits, and references. This is when the conversation fell apart. The lady said, "I'm not really interested in cleaning. I just want to get out the house for a couple hours. Maybe my son's girlfriend could come. She's not legal, but needs money and so do I."

I was appalled that she flat out wanted to be paid for nothing AND suggested that I hire her illegal son's girlfriend.

I think it's the culture of our society and it saddens me.

anemoneprose

Interesting Neandermagnon thanks! I think if you remove the main causes that lead to the selfish behavior in an environment it will allow human altruistic behavior to dominate. In social aspect that being the abundance and availability of resources, securities needed for living.

See, thing is, a lot of people think there ARE enough resources. The problem is the distribution. I.e., the whole primate thing.

grrrlface

Well after I posted here the other day saying how hard I've tried to get a job... I got offered one this morning!!

Hard work and persistence is all you need if you really want a job!

I'm so excited!

And it means I might even be able to go to University next year (or the year after!) as I can now fund myself!

Hildy_J

I agree. A member of my family "graduated" from their local community college. I think they did a BTEC in something. But they had a "graduation" ceremony - with mortar boards, gowns, the lot! LOL!
When recently discussing my daughter's aspirations of going to Cambridge to read Engineering, this person's mother proudly announced "Our *** can tell her all about what it's like studying for a degree!"
Hmm ... I think there's a difference between Smallville Technical College and the University of Cambridge!

Can't... unclench... toes...